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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36821 Posts |
 Posted - 31 Jan 2013 : 04:33:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Mirtek
I am really sick of elven superiority in the Realms.
It's "everything you can do we can do much better" in the realms every time when it's elves vs. humans.
No human realm is ever as powerful as the elven realms (they even hoaxed the Netheril Empire) and no human army ever won a battle against an elven army. 
So if all of this is true, why is Faerūn dominated by humans, and elven nations are few, far between, and usually shrinking? |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jan 2013 : 04:36:07
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| Well said, Wooly. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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sfdragon
Great Reader
2285 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jan 2013 : 07:17:42
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| tmnt??? teenaged muntant ninja turtles teanaged mutant ninja turtles.... heoesi n a half shell turtle power.... |
why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power
My FR fan fiction
Magister's GAmbit
http://steelfiredragon.deviantart.com/gallery/33539234 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jan 2013 : 07:41:04
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quote:
Mirtek
... no human army ever won a battle against an elven army ...
Actually, are/were there any significant battles between elven and human armies in the Realms? |
[/Ayrik] |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2444 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jan 2013 : 09:27:02
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Is it a good thing or a bad thing that after seeing the title my thought was "Which society? 'cause it looks like just about everyone on Faerun is a member of two open and three secret ones"? 
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Actually, are/were there any significant battles between elven and human armies in the Realms?
Jaamdath (early ald late). Crown Against Scepter. Sembia, for the road. Generally, elves fighting against humans tend to try hit'n'run rather than head-on clash, of course.
quote:
Originally posted by Bladewind
I think one of the causes of the growing dislike of elves is that their extended exposure in FR novels and gameproducts removed some of their mystery. Their portreyal in FR used to be fueled by a need to know, about their customs, culture and history. After years of hunting elven lore, they still remain my favorite subjects. I can understand the complaint about the oodles of text written about them, though.
Mmm...
Not that. |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jan 2013 : 14:29:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Tyrant
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I don't know about anyone else, but I've never felt it was always elves coming to save the day... More oft, there are only one or two elves involved, or the elven bacon is what is getting pulled out of the fire.
I have to agree with Wooly. As someone who primarily reads the novels, I really don't see the pro elven bias outside of a few elf centric novels. If anything there is an overwhelming pro human bias. Sure, Elves contributed quite a bit to the Realms in the past. But in the present humans are mostly running the show. I do agree with the comments that we need more Dwarf centric stories though. Then again, I also think we need to see more of races like the Yuan Ti, Hobgoblins, etc that have their own civilizations and history.
I have to agree--based on the number of novels I seriously avoid simply because they're elf-centric.
As for the focus on other races, I partially agree. I still want to see a humano-centric setting, but zooming into other interesting (subjective, I know) races is fine as well. (Though hobgoblins, yuan ti, and anything scaly are not part of my list.) |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Mirtek
Senior Scribe
595 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jan 2013 : 18:40:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly RupertSo if all of this is true, why is Faerūn dominated by humans, and elven nations are few, far between, and usually shrinking?
Because the elves are mostly a goodly race and humanity outbreed them so fast that they can afford to "beat" them by drowning them in sheer numbers in Pyrrhic victory after Pyrrhic victory.
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
quote:
Mirtek
... no human army ever won a battle against an elven army ...
Actually, are/were there any significant battles between elven and human armies in the Realms?
Sembia got it's ### handed to them starting with the battle of the singing arrows ever since. Then there is the liberation of some dales from zhentisch armies, the taking of Gwynneth. And I think at least one other major engagement I can't remember at the moment.
Also just by their descriptions the elven realms are always portrayed as military more powerful. Cormyr is one of the major human military powers but wouldn't have a snowball's chance in hell to win a war with Cormanthor.
I would like to see a balance of power were a treat of invasion of Cormyr would have to be taken seriously by any elven realm beyond "our poor warriors will have a bad conscience from having to slaughter so many human soldiers"
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Edited by - Mirtek on 31 Jan 2013 18:46:32 |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jan 2013 : 18:52:56
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| Elves and humans have reached a truce at this point though, haven't they? Oh, sure, individuals may fight, but no large scale battles where its city vs city. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jan 2013 : 19:05:38
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Why do the elves have this decisive advantage then?
Using Cormyr vs Cormanthyr as an example ... do the elves have greater numbers, greater skill, greater magic? Surely they can't all be warriors while human societies are filled with 0-level weaklings? Surely the elven warriors cannot all possess such skill and experience that they could all dance circles around their fumbling human counterparts? Do elven generals have such subtleties and sophistications that their strategies ensure absolute victory against all other races? Surely elven mages cannot all easily overwhelm all the human war wizards? The FR sourcebooks do not answer these questions, or more conveniently, they overlook relevant facts whenever the writing requires one side (usually the elven one) to be victorious over the other.
Both sides could call upon allies or summon otherworldly reinforcements, but that would just multiply the scale of conflict while maintaining the same alleged disparity in population ratio. Forests can be locked in siege or burned to the ground as easily as cities. Either side could magically retreat, but forfeiting terrain does not win battles, plus the elves of FR histories always have decisive victories instead of Pyrrhic victories. I think elves would also need to win the battle quickly, because another generation of human soldiers could be brought online every couple decades, while elven losses would take centuries to replace, they have little choice but to avoid being trapped into wars of attrition.
So I'd just like to know why exactly the elven forces are considered superior when battling humans. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 31 Jan 2013 19:16:41 |
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Lord Bane
Senior Scribe
Germany
479 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jan 2013 : 20:00:06
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To me they are not superior, they die just as easily as everyone else when they engage in battle.
Sorry Mirtek but you make them to be the ultimate warrior, which by far they are not. Claiming the freeing of Dales from zhentish rule is a deed done by elves is greatly leaving out the efforts of humans actively opposing the rule of the Black Network.
Just to bring you down to earth, the Cormanthor War was a truce, not a victory even though people like to claim that and the elves had aid and did not fight on their own as the fighting raged on many other fronts. Had it just been the elves, Cormanthor would have disappeared under the boots of the Zhentarim. |
The driving force in the multiverse is evil, for it forces good to act. |
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Bladewind
Master of Realmslore
Netherlands
1280 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jan 2013 : 20:04:27
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Elves are prone to retaliate with (unstable) magic. They abhor using necromancy on themselves but some don't shun to use experimental necromantic spells in battle against N'Tel'Quess. They have a plethora of spell enhanced tactics used over millenia against forces with superior might or numbers. With a possible high magic spell at the ready able to wipe out generations, elves do best to restrain from using their full potential in warfare.
Common faerunian armies are not magic heavy enough to win a pitched battle against a similar sized elven host. Elves affinity for the weave and integrated magical culture usually gives even a normal grunt basic understanding of magic devices. Shocktroops equiped with magic attacks (or elite fightermages like bladesingers) can break a tide beyond their normal capacity. Furthermore, the advantage of a high magic culture gives elven armies the ability to minimalize the resources needed enabling greater mobility when on the march.
Its basicly an mago(techno)logical advantage.
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My campaign sketches
Druidic Groves
Creature Feature: Giant Spiders |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36821 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jan 2013 : 21:23:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Mirtek
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly RupertSo if all of this is true, why is Faerūn dominated by humans, and elven nations are few, far between, and usually shrinking?
Because the elves are mostly a goodly race and humanity outbreed them so fast that they can afford to "beat" them by drowning them in sheer numbers in Pyrrhic victory after Pyrrhic victory.
Some superiority, if they can't deal with superior numbers.
Some superiority, if they can't plan ahead and keep their enemies from having superior numbers.
Some superiority, if they can't plan with how to deal with those superior numbers.
They are so superior that they've lost almost every land they've held, and even their "impregnable" strongholds have come under serious assault. They are so superior they have Retreated from a continent they once seized from dragons and held for themselves.
How do you define superiority? Someone who loses at every turn does not fit any definition of superiority that I'm familiar with. |
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Mirtek
Senior Scribe
595 Posts |
Posted - 02 Feb 2013 : 01:07:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly RupertHow do you define superiority?
They always do everything human do just do it better. The humans then need to do their inferior way more often.
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly RupertSomeone who loses at every turn does not fit any definition of superiority that I'm familiar with.
If he loses taking out enemies in a 20:1 ratio I count them as superior, even if he has to finally yield to sheer numbers.
While humans have more realms, every elven realm could crush any single human realm in a 1:1 at their leisure.
If Cormanthor tomorrow decides to make war on Cormyr the surrender will be signed in what's left of Suazil and not in occupied Myth Drannor
I just once want to see a human army decisively give it to a similar sized elven host and not always the other way round.
I want to see the Kendriks to raise an army and take back Gwynneth, I want to see something other than outright defeat or Pyrrhic victory at best when humans fight elves.
Or having Sembia win an engagement against elves for a change.
Or having Shade pull of something against the elven centers of power to pay back how the humbled netheril by snatching the nether scrolls from them out of their very vaults. |
Edited by - Mirtek on 02 Feb 2013 01:12:48 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36821 Posts |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 02 Feb 2013 : 06:12:11
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I stand by my own personal verdict: elves are awesome. They are, IMO, essentially to the Realms. Of course they have more of a history; they've been around longer. I like stories about humans (some of my favorite characters are humans, and there have been some elven characters I do not like), but I like stories about elves, too. History may have been "elf-centric", but again, that's because they're an older race, so they have more history. While there have been several series that were about elves and events concerning them, I still don't see the Realms as revolving around them, per se. They're part of the Realms, just like humans are. I've read more novels featuring humans than elves. Maybe an elf pops up here and there, or you have an elven character or two, but he/she is not the protagonist. I suppose people can plead for a balance, if they really think there needs to be one, but it looks to me like humans are more dominant *shrugs*
We all have aspects of the Realms we like and dislike, but I'm attached to the pointy-eared ones, just like I'm attached to the gods. If people think there needs to be more books on other races (I agree there aren't that many books about dwarves outside the Drizzt novels, but that personally has never really bothered me), fine, I'm okay with that, but I never thought elves were hogging the spotlight, anyway. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 02 Feb 2013 : 06:25:07
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quote:
Bladewind
Elves are prone to retaliate with (unstable) magic. They abhor using necromancy on themselves but some don't shun to use experimental necromantic spells in battle against N'Tel'Quess. They have a plethora of spell enhanced tactics used over millenia against forces with superior might or numbers. With a possible high magic spell at the ready able to wipe out generations, elves do best to restrain from using their full potential in warfare.
We do expect elves to have all sorts of powerful (and dangerous) magical spells and items locked away, doomsday stuff with horrible consequences for all sides. At least they've pulled these things out of the hat in past emergencies.
I'm not convinced though, and a weapon unused is a wasted weapon (shoulda made a plow or cauldron instead), at best serving as a political bludgeon weighted down with deterrent/terror psychology.
I would argue elves may not have a decisive advantage in this regard. Humans are astonishingly destructive brutes, sometimes as hateful as orcs, as fierce as dwarves, as capable of blasting as elves - and far less constrained by "enlightened" elven pretentions. Humans in the Realms have destroyed empires, civilizations, gods, sometimes in mere moments.
War Wizards of Cormyr and Red Wizards of Thay could certainly give elven High Mages some trouble. Not to mention that humans have access to a much wider array of divine magics (and generally bigger, more powerful pool of gods in Faerūn), plus many Chosen sorts lacking in the elven pantheon.
I realize Cormyr-vs-Cormanthyr-to-the-death is utterly ridiculous and hypothetical, but I think it wouldn't be especially one-sided either way. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 02 Feb 2013 : 06:33:36
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| I would have to agree with Ayrik on that score. Elves have their high magic, yess, but very little of it seems geared toward destructive purposes, for the very obvious reason that they are concerned about consequences to their own realms. They've learned the hard way (Crown Wars, anyone?) what can happen when powerful destructive magic is unbleashed. Hence, they usually seek to avoid it at all cost. |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
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http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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Bladewind
Master of Realmslore
Netherlands
1280 Posts |
Posted - 02 Feb 2013 : 13:48:00
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Aye, and to top it off, elven high mages are a dying breed. Fewer and fewer elves are invited by the circle of high mages in Evermeet to take up the responcability of being a high mage. Their number of mages of normal skill might still be exceeding those mustered by most human realms.
Also remember that the head of the elven pantheon is an ancient God of War in its own right. Corellon might be good aligned, but his clergy is comprised of paragons of both battle and magic, with a dogma that mandates the protection of the elven people at all cost. Many have acces to ancient lore about the best way to combat an opposing army, be they human, orc, goblinoid or giant. Most elven clerics are flexible, able to master bowyery, horseback riding and or swordplay, enabling them to lead from multiple army positions such as amongst archers, cavalry and infantry.
These priests work in concert with elven (high) mages to command and direct the bulk of an elven host. Elven high mages are usually deployed in defensive manner: to cloak a whole army in illusory morale sapping zones, to counter opposing mages or to divine the opposing armies weaknesses while the archers and infantry work to hold the forces back. The countering of opposing mages is a specialty few other races have equal mastery of; elven reflexes and senses are particularly handy when attempting to master this particular branch of abjuration magic (it also reflected in their PrC statblocks with the reactive counterspell feat they recieve for free).
Now sprinkle some specialist units amongst the elven host; those who blend magic with martial skill such as arcane archers and bladesingers, eagle riding scout-knights, greycloaked rangers, longsword masters of arms and rapier duelists; and one can see the razor sharp edge most elven hosts can muster. |
My campaign sketches
Druidic Groves
Creature Feature: Giant Spiders |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 02 Feb 2013 : 16:27:57
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Elven High Mages are an odd thing, though. In almost every novel where they appear, "the last of the High Mages sacrifices themselves".
And yet, in the next novel (or historical sourcebook footnote) there they are again, with another group sacrificing themselves. They've 'run out of high-mages' more times then I can count.
High-Mages must breed like kobolds.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 02 Feb 2013 : 17:50:00
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MT. if I remember correctly, each settlement has had its own High Mage circle at one time or another, and while some circles have been completely wiped out, others are still alive. However, as Bladewind pointed out, High Mages- or to be more specific, those with the ability to learn high magic- have become harder to find, so replacing high mages who die has become more difficult over time. The only one who has complete access to ALL elven high magic (IIRC) is Queen Amlaruil herself, and that mainly through the Kingblade.
I would guess that part of the reason so many elven lands have fallen over time is due to the lack of new high mages replacing those lost in war or magical disasters. Without that key component to their defenses, many elven kingdoms simply could not stand against the overwhemling numbers of their foes. I hardly see this as proof of any supposed "superiority".
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The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 02 Feb 2013 : 19:39:04
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| So ... after running through a few more circles ... elves are once again asserted as a superior race? This is what I cannot abide, elves always being perceived (and treated) as the superior breed even without substance to back this claim. No matter how it is approached, there is always the expectation that elves are better and will prove dominant. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 02 Feb 2013 : 21:01:40
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| Yes, each race has special strengths and talents. It just seems to me that elves are overly privileged in our media and in our D&D (especially in the FR setting) but that is largely personal opinion. Although I might agree with some of Candlekeep's anti-elf extremists, I don't always agree with their particular rationale or chosen methods of expression. (I also try to completely disregard commentary which seems ignorant, noxious, trollish, and uselessly antagonistic, and I hope other scribes can do the same, but that's a different issue. I shouldn't be surprised after creating this particular scroll.) |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 02 Feb 2013 21:06:14 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 02 Feb 2013 : 21:30:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
MT. if I remember correctly, each settlement has had its own High Mage circle at one time or another, and while some circles have been completely wiped out, others are still alive. However, as Bladewind pointed out, High Mages- or to be more specific, those with the ability to learn high magic- have become harder to find, so replacing high mages who die has become more difficult over time. The only one who has complete access to ALL elven high magic (IIRC) is Queen Amlaruil herself, and that mainly through the Kingblade.
Actually, Elven High Mages are VERY easy to replace. All you need is an author who needs to sacrifice a bunch. They snap their fingers and wallah, tons of them appear out of nowhere.
They are created merely to die... kinda like orcs.
And they usually die sacrificing themselves for some Elven 'noble purpose', and by 'noble purpose' I mean slaughtering some other race or group. Elves make for very bad neighbors.
If I lived in Faerūn, I'd keep an Ithyak Ortheel as a pet. Feeding time would be my favorite part. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 02 Feb 2013 21:31:36 |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 02 Feb 2013 : 22:35:06
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| And I'd keep my elves faaaaarrr away from your pet, MT. You wouldn't have to worry about them. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 03 Feb 2013 : 00:29:35
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| Same here. They'll fight if their homeland is threatened. Haha some of my elves might like your Pali. Is he a Shevarashan, or he just hates drow? |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Society thinks elves are cool
