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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
 Posted - 26 Jan 2013 : 13:30:49
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I'm not sure if this is right or not... but did they kill off Halaster too?
That's what a wiki I just came across says, and it seems like just one day he was dead. If so how the hell did they work out all the magical consequences?
Also, can someone just list the major NPCs that have been killed in print?
I know they killed Khelben (don't get me started on that book) :/, but who are the others?
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Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2450 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jan 2013 : 15:13:03
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Which time period are you asking about? If it's 4e, it's easier to ask who they didn't kill (and the answer is basically Elminster, Drizzt, and one or two of the Seven).
If you limit your question to the end of 3e, but don't include the last page of Grand History of the Realms, the body count is closer to:
Halaster (only mostly dead)
Azoun and Tanalasta and Vangerdahast (not all at the same time and Vangey again only sorta)
Khelben
Sylune
Qilue (in one of the worst series ever)
Tilverton (ditto)
Most of the drow gods (see note on Qilue)
Ched Nasad
The Frostrune
That's everything I can think of off the top of my head, but I'm sure there's more. Halaster was killed by the Twisted Rune (see the 3e Undermountain book), but though they destroyed his body they inadvertently shattered his soul into hundreds of items that were or had been in Undermountain, leaving the way clear for a possible return. Since 4e didn't do anything with the setting aside from blow it up, it's left up to individual DMs to pull off. |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jan 2013 : 15:31:07
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What is mostly dead? (I'm having Princess Bride flashbacks - someone call Miracle Max for a miracle pill, quick!)
I had read Death of the Dragon and its precursors... didn't like seeing Azoun die but he was getting old anyhow. The only part of those books that really bothered me was Vangerdahast's lecture to the princesses that the Royals of Cormyr are not allow to be resurrected or the terrible elvish overlords who allow Cormyr to exist will swoop in and take it back - I guess they needed to answer the whole, why not resurrect Azoun question ahead of time or something.
Sylune was a ghost of sorts attached to little bits of rock from her house.
Is it possible that whatever books killed all the drow were worse than the last few chapters of Blackstaff that called up every missing elf NPC in Faerun history for an urgent spell that had been waiting for 15000 years that absolutely required the death of the best grumpy wizard in the Realms? |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36968 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jan 2013 : 15:36:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Hoondatha
That's everything I can think of off the top of my head, but I'm sure there's more. Halaster was killed by the Twisted Rune (see the 3e Undermountain book), but though they destroyed his body they inadvertently shattered his soul into hundreds of items that were or had been in Undermountain, leaving the way clear for a possible return. Since 4e didn't do anything with the setting aside from blow it up, it's left up to individual DMs to pull off.
Was the Twisted Rune involved? I thought it was just that whatever he was trying to do didn't work, and thus BOOM! And as I recall, they never really explained what he was trying to do or why it failed... This is one of the many reasons I really hate that WotC decided to do that.
Sage and I have discussed the idea that the Manshoon clone living in Undermountain managed to gather up many of the pieces of Halaster's soul, and (perhaps inadvertently) merged with them, becoming some amalgam of the two. I'd run with that long before going with the official version of what happened in Undermountain. |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jan 2013 : 15:47:07
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Sage and I have discussed the idea that the Manshoon clone living in Undermountain managed to gather up many of the pieces of Halaster's soul, and (perhaps inadvertently) merged with them, becoming some amalgam of the two. I'd run with that long before going with the official version of what happened in Undermountain.
Its good to see that no matter how out there my ideas to ignore 3rd & 4th ed. get the ***** members have thought of something grander. :D |
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Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2450 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jan 2013 : 22:21:40
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Mage: Halaster was working on a great spell when it misfired. He was incinerated, but as he died he managed to split his soul into hundreds of pieces and throw them out into the world, where they infused items that had spent time in Undermountain.
Sylune's ghost was killed off at the start of the adventure trio that closed out 3e.
Ed's talked a fair amount about the trouble of resurrection spells and royalty. Basically, it opens up a can of succession worms that no one wants to deal with. If Azoun had been brought back, he couldn't have been king anymore. And as he'd died literally saving the realm, it's about as good a way to go out as any.
I actually really, really liked Blackstaff, though I wish it had gone further and reversed the curse on the entire High Moor. Not only was it well plotted and fun to read just from a literature perspective, but it folded so much Realmslore into it almost effortlessly that from a CK'er perspective it was also great. Lady Penitent doesn't hold a candle to it.
Wooly: Expedition to Undermountain pg 188: "The Twisted Rune remotely interfered with the great spell Halasrer was creating, causing it to misfire."
And I agree, they tried to be vague and mysterious and hint that maybe Halaster was trying to stop the Spellplague, but they ended up just coming off as mostly clueless. |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jan 2013 : 22:33:25
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| To each his own I guess Hoondatha :D |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jan 2013 : 00:12:41
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Twisted Rune you say?
Hmmmmm... I've had my suspicions that certain folk on Toril may have already been working with/for the Eminence of Araunt since before the Spellplague. In fact, I have been toying with the idea that the true leader of the group has been in Faerūn all along.
Knowing that they (the Twisted Rune) interfered with Halster's spell to interfere with the Spellplague makes it seem like they wanted it to happen, and even had some idea about the results.
I can definitely work with that.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 28 Jan 2013 14:24:47 |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jan 2013 : 09:54:48
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| How is it that Undermountain doesn't go all to hell (as well as all the locations it's connected to via gates) without the puppet master ? |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jan 2013 : 10:45:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Hoondatha
Wooly: Expedition to Undermountain pg 188: "The Twisted Rune remotely interfered with the great spell Halasrer was creating, causing it to misfire."
And I agree, they tried to be vague and mysterious and hint that maybe Halaster was trying to stop the Spellplague, but they ended up just coming off as mostly clueless.
One of the more recent sources on Undermountain -- 4e's Halls of Undermountain -- notes that "Halaster has not been sighted in more than a century." It's commonly believed that some "cataclysm" killed him "before the Spellplague." Rumours say either Halaster or his ghost have returned to power in Undermountain but, of course, no hard facts exist on this subject. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jan 2013 : 10:49:30
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quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
How is it that Undermountain doesn't go all to hell (as well as all the locations it's connected to via gates) without the puppet master ?
Has it ever been conclusively said that it doesn't?
Halls of Undermountain notes that the level called Shadowdusk Hold functions as a home for aberrant Far Realm beings. So if the Far Realm can touch the depths of Undermountain, I can't imagine it would be too difficult for the Nine Hells to also find some way of worming into a forgotten level of the dungeon. |
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"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jan 2013 : 23:08:07
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
How is it that Undermountain doesn't go all to hell (as well as all the locations it's connected to via gates) without the puppet master ?
Has it ever been conclusively said that it doesn't?
Halls of Undermountain notes that the level called Shadowdusk Hold functions as a home for aberrant Far Realm beings. So if the Far Realm can touch the depths of Undermountain, I can't imagine it would be too difficult for the Nine Hells to also find some way of worming into a forgotten level of the dungeon.
That's not quite what I meant by "go all to hell." I was using the term idiomatically to mean totally out of control, far beyond the problems experience when Halaster was kidnapped for a time. Or other mentioned occasions, like when tons of monsters got dumped into Cormanthyr. |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jan 2013 : 23:18:00
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Has Ed ever commented on what happened. At one point I thought Vangerdahast was going to turn himself into a sleeping dragon, and then next thing I know he's a funny little crawling head/hands spidery thing. Spell error?
As far as the series about the drow gods and their servants getting killed off one by one, I think I'm going to just ignore that that even exists, except to say I think it is quite stupid that Ao would agreed to oversee said game as some kinda god's referee (which I don't think he'd agree to in the first place) and then be like, well I know she's cheating but she was cheating before too, so there. I also don't think a goddess like Eilistraee who has doggedly worked to help some of the drow out of her mother's shadow would risk everything in a game of chance like that. Only one that makes ANY sense for is Vhaerun. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jan 2013 : 01:13:17
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quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
How is it that Undermountain doesn't go all to hell (as well as all the locations it's connected to via gates) without the puppet master ?
Has it ever been conclusively said that it doesn't?
Halls of Undermountain notes that the level called Shadowdusk Hold functions as a home for aberrant Far Realm beings. So if the Far Realm can touch the depths of Undermountain, I can't imagine it would be too difficult for the Nine Hells to also find some way of worming into a forgotten level of the dungeon.
That's not quite what I meant by "go all to hell." I was using the term idiomatically to mean totally out of control, far beyond the problems experience when Halaster was kidnapped for a time. Or other mentioned occasions, like when tons of monsters got dumped into Cormanthyr.
In that case, Halls of Undermountain lays keen hints about possibly Halaster, his ghost, or someone "reawakening the dangers" of Undermountain. In other words, someone may have taken up the residence and brought the dungeon back under control. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jan 2013 : 14:27:17
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quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
How is it that Undermountain doesn't go all to hell (as well as all the locations it's connected to via gates) without the puppet master ?
Yup, AGREED. Undermountain makes no sense post-Spellplague.
Hope Ed fixes that. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 28 Jan 2013 14:28:00 |
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_Jarlaxle_
Senior Scribe
Germany
584 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jan 2013 : 14:35:50
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| Maybe it has a new puppet master? |
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Hawkins
Great Reader
USA
2131 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jan 2013 : 15:49:07
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| This is one of the topics of the advent of 4e that really pissed me off. At the end of Elminster in Hell, we see Halaster in a new, hopeful light. Just to have it dashed in once sentence in Expedition to Undermountain? |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jan 2013 : 16:25:28
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My Shadowbane series has a bit to say on Undermountain (particularly the novel Downshadow), and *will* have more to say on Halaster. We'll see.
Generally speaking, I don't think Halaster really kept Undermountain "under control" so much as actively controlling it. And who's to say he doesn't *still do that* in a sense?
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jan 2013 : 23:12:53
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I just had a "holy ****" idea! What if the method Manshoon used to buy his way into the graces of The Simbul, Halaster and others, was to give them a copy of his Stasis Clone spell?
That would make it entirely possible for any or all of the Chosen who've been killed off - INCLUDING Halaster, the Simbul, Qulue and Khelben to be alive and well, perfect copies of the old them despite their CANNON deaths :D.
Mod Edit: Watch the language please. |
Edited by - The Sage on 29 Jan 2013 01:29:42 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jan 2013 : 01:39:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Hawkins
This is one of the topics of the advent of 4e that really pissed me off. At the end of Elminster in Hell, we see Halaster in a new, hopeful light. Just to have it dashed in once sentence in Expedition to Undermountain?
Well, as I said above, the ways in which certain passages about Halaster's fate were written in 4e Halls of Undermountain, doesn't specifically discount the possibility that the Mad Mage [or some variant of him] could return [or, perhaps, already has returned] to bring some semblance of order to the dungeon. |
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Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36968 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jan 2013 : 03:10:30
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quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
I just had a "holy ****" idea! What if the method Manshoon used to buy his way into the graces of The Simbul, Halaster and others, was to give them a copy of his Stasis Clone spell?
That would make it entirely possible for any or all of the Chosen who've been killed off - INCLUDING Halaster, the Simbul, Qulue and Khelben to be alive and well, perfect copies of the old them despite their CANNON deaths :D.
Mod Edit: Watch the language please.
It's a nifty idea, but we don't know how well the silver fire will transfer over -- or if it will interfere with the stasis clone spell. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12194 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jan 2013 : 06:41:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Twisted Rune you say?
Hmmmmm... I've had my suspicions that certain folk on Toril may have already been working with/for the Eminence of Araunt since before the Spellplague. In fact, I have been toying with the idea that the true leader of the group has been in Faerūn all along.
Knowing that they (the Twisted Rune) interfered with Halster's spell to interfere with the Spellplague makes it seem like they wanted it to happen, and even had some idea about the results.
I can definitely work with that.
Now THAT is an interesting idea. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jan 2013 : 07:49:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
It's a nifty idea, but we don't know how well the silver fire will transfer over -- or if it will interfere with the stasis clone spell.
Honestly, I don't think the the silver fire would transfer over at all. Of course, nothing would be stopping Mystra from re-choosing her Chosen.
The exception to this might be the Seven. You ask why? I'll tell you :). They were basically bred to be Chosen. Its a part of what they are. |
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_Jarlaxle_
Senior Scribe
Germany
584 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jan 2013 : 09:13:17
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quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
What if the method Manshoon used to buy his way into the graces of The Simbul, Halaster and others,
What do you mean with this? |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jan 2013 : 09:33:53
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In the description of The Manshoon wars, various Manshoon clones, in their desire to find a place they go to various places/people of power and buy sanctuary. One example was Candlekeep, where he used half of an ancient magical tome to get in:
"Before the end of 1370 DR, Manshoon will seek any aid possible and make deals so desperate as to seem mad (and thus help reinforce Fzouls claim whispered among the Zhentarim that the mage has gone insane). In trade for numerous secret spells privy only to him and his Zhentarim, Manshoon (nine of him, to be precise) buys himself sanctuary in the company of wizards such as Larloch the Lich-King, Vimal Craumerdaun of Eshpurta, Vynmarius of Athkatla, Vizar Mohad el Fisar of Manshake, Tenaral of Amruthar, Vyrth of Darmshall, Halaster of Undermountain, Master of mages Guldor Zauviir of Sshamath, and the Simbul (a fact she keeps secret from even the most trusted of her apprentices!)." |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36968 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jan 2013 : 09:54:50
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quote:
Originally posted by _Jarlaxle_
quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
What if the method Manshoon used to buy his way into the graces of The Simbul, Halaster and others,
What do you mean with this?
It's in Cloak & Dagger. When the Manshoon Wars were raging, several Manshoons sought shelter with other prominent mages. It makes sense to assume that Manshoon paid for this shelter, somehow. |
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_Jarlaxle_
Senior Scribe
Germany
584 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jan 2013 : 09:55:20
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| Ahh ok, I thought it was a reference to events after the Spellplague which wouldn't have been correct. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jan 2013 : 13:40:38
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First off (and I am looking at you, Erik), I think it would be INSANELY COOL if Halaster has managed to somehow still exert control over aspects of Undermountain despite his condition.
Now... if I was an author... I'd look at that as opportunity. We have us a shattered soul (of an uber-archmage and possibly an ex-Chosen), a damaged mythal, and a vast underground complex filled with all sorts of magic (some of it artifact-class). In another thread I mentioned how I think 'soul stuff' can bond with magic (magical fields attract the lifeforce similar to how a magnet works with ferrous metals).
Thats all I am saying... (Halaster... *cough*... Skynet... *cough*) 
Now, unto the subject of Chosen and clones... WHY? We've seen them survive their own deaths before, and we know at least Elminster has some epic-level contingencies hanging around him (based on Elven Spell-mantles). If they (WotC) wanted to bring them back, this is one of the very few things they could actually get away with 'hand-waving'.
Now, SHOULD THEY? Hmmmmmm... I'd say no for most of them. It gets cheesy. I would like to see one or two survive, and a couple of new ones, and thats it.*
As for Khelben... well.. the guy everyone thought was Khelben Arunsun really wasn't (thats canon). Why not bring in his wayward nephew - the REAL Khelben Arunsun? (just don't call him Blackstaff - that title should be reserved for the first Khelben only - using it as a title for later character just diminished it and I HATED that).
In fact, I have a sneaking suspicion that Elminster already knows 'the other Khelben' rather well. In fact, I think they used to get together at Ed's house for pizza.... 
EDIT:
*And for goodness sakes, STOP using lore from one thing and applying it to other things - ONLY MYSTRA SHOULD HAVE CHOSEN! Follow Troy Dennings lead - Cyric has a Seraph. In canon, Ilmater (or is it Lathander? I forget) has 'Saints'. Lolth has a "Yor'thae ", etc. Lets take the exarch concept (but not the word - leave that a mechanical term) and give us some cool-sounding, deity-specific titles. Its called designing for a reason people, not pilfering. Over-using a cool concept strips it of all its coolness. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 29 Jan 2013 21:33:04 |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jan 2013 : 13:50:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
As for Khelben... well.. the guy everyone thought was Khelben Arunsun really wasn't (thats canon). Why not bring in his wayward nephew - the REAL Khelben Arunsun? (just don't call him Blackstaff - that title should be reserved for the first Khelben only - using it as a title for later character just diminished it and I HATED that).
Where do you get that from? As far as I know, "the guy everyone thought was Khelben" was THE Khelben - Khelben the Elder. They just didn't know that - they thought he was the younger... Khelben the Elder would certainly be the more powerful/ancient one.
Have they made a change to that somewhere? |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jan 2013 : 13:54:09
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Khelben wasn't his real name - he was technically 'Nameless', until he took on the persona of his own nephew (a nephew who was either sent or went willingly to another world - most believe Greyhawk).
Everyone thinks his sister is his mother - VERY FEW people know that he is not his own nephew. The name is an alias, nothing more. The only thing that is truly his is the tile "The Blackstaff".
Thats all from some early sourcebook on Waterdeep - can't recall which. I'm sure Sage or someone will be around with the specifics.
EDIT: And if it turns out I am right about who he became (in Greyhawk), then the nephew went on to become just as famous and nearly as powerful as his uncle.
EDIT2: So no-one else notices the striking resemblance?  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 29 Jan 2013 14:01:13 |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jan 2013 : 14:06:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Khelben wasn't his real name - he was technically 'Nameless', until he took on the persona of his own nephew (a nephew who was either sent or went willingly to another world - most believe Greyhawk).
EDIT2: So no-one else notices the striking resemblance?
The Nameless Chosen, also known as Arun's Son, became Khelben during the Weeping War (the fall of Myth Drannor). His nephew was named after him - although I think its something more like great great great great great nephew. This is the story of how he got his name:
The Nameless Chosen lay like one dead for more than the next year, though Mystra spoke to those who tended him, calling him "he whom magic, duty, and honor defines." His elf nurse, who heard this in her own tongue, gave him the name Akhelbhen; upon his awakening, the Nameless Chosen, once called Arun#146;s Son is introduced him to the new High Mage Aglanthol as Khelben Arunsun. His body healed but forever scarred across his chest and back where he was nearly torn in twain, he banishes his vanity and keeps the wedge of silver-white hair and beard to remind him of the silver flames dancing within it and how it does not make him invincible. It also signifies his debts, as it reminds him of Silverymoon and what he owes its people as well.
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Edited by - The Masked Mage on 29 Jan 2013 14:15:27 |
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Halaster et al.
