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JohnLynch
Learned Scribe
Australia
243 Posts |
 Posted - 19 Jan 2013 : 01:32:23
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You can see some concept art for the Forgotten Realms. I'm curious that some of the "generic" monsters are listed as Forgotten Realms concept art. Perhaps after 4th ed, they're looking to get the art right this time with an extremely heavy emphasis on portraying the different races of the Forgotten Realms correct.
I'd been planning on using 2nd ed and 3rd ed art. However I'm really digging this concept art. I love how Sun Elves and Wood Elves are differentiated. Sun Elves, after all, are described as having bronzed skin while wood elves are described as having coppery skin. To be perfectly honest, I had no idea how those two races were suppose to be told apart. The skin tones on that concept art helps me a lot (with Wood Elves having a more Asiatic skin tone).
I love the halflings. With no points of reference I can tell these pictures are of halflings. I also like how the lightfoot halflings look. To me they're reminiscent of a friend of mine from Bosnia. I don't know what ethnicity that is, but I like that they've (seemed) to chose one beyond the standard englishman.
I'm really liking the Illuskan art as to me it really does help bring the range of appearances alive with them. While the Turami art helps stress their heritage as well.
Gnomes are also quite distinct from halflings which can be difficult to achieve.
I'm not as big a fan of the exaggerated anatomy of the fire giant. But giants are problematic in that they can basically look the same except being a different colour.
I'm digging the goblins. When I show my players those creatures are coming to get them, it becomes quite clear these are not light-hearted comedy relief who should be befriended. These are evil creatures that will kill you if given the opportunity.
I do like how Ogres are clearly a distinct race from giants.
I'm not too much of a fan of the number of races that have "thick necks"/"no necks" but it's something I can overlook given the excellent art.
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DM of the Realms: A blog for my Forgotten Realms adventures. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jan 2013 : 01:45:51
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| To me the fire giant looks like a dark Mr. Incredible holding some kind of impractical anime rolling-pin/sword weapon. Many of the monsters look cool but the (demi)humans not so much. Reserving final judgement until I see what they've done to orcs ... pigfaces or orks or emorcs? |
[/Ayrik] |
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Caolin
Senior Scribe
769 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jan 2013 : 03:19:44
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| Kind of curious. Where did this link come from? You'd think something like this would be NDA right now. |
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JohnLynch
Learned Scribe
Australia
243 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jan 2013 : 03:37:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Reserving final judgement until I see what they've done to orcs ... pigfaces or orks or emorcs?
[url=http://conceptopolis.deviantart.com/gallery/26646047?offset=24#/d5rs9uf]Orcs are here[/url]. It matches some of my minis and matches the general brutish look orcs typically have gotten in my experience.
quote:
Originally posted by Caolin
Kind of curious. Where did this link come from? You'd think something like this would be NDA right now.
I've seen those halfling pictures on the WotC website before. The link I got from WotC's forums here.
Technically there's nothing that definitely says they're 100% authentic. However if someone has drawn all these pictures after incorporating the style from the halfling pics, then they've certainly got enough talent to keep me happy ;) |
DM of the Realms: A blog for my Forgotten Realms adventures. |
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Dark Wizard
Senior Scribe
USA
830 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jan 2013 : 07:10:59
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That's a good find. Seen some of them before, but this collects many images into one place. The halflings while notably non-human/demihuman, seem to have portions a bit imbalanced to be practical. Likewise the fire giant is awkward looking in the same imbalanced way.
I know it's concept art, but I was hoping this edition the art would start to show more than just figures and portraits standing on a plain background. I would like to see more scenery, locations, landscapes, cities, architecture. I would like to see characters standing in front of (or within) a scene. Maybe characters in action (an active battle stance, casting a spell, running away) or in battle. Or images of characters in action in a scene, something that tells a story. This was one of the art direction areas that I felt 3E Eberron completely trounced 3E FR in. Not all the time, but throwing one of those active scenes in here and there really help set the atmosphere. The covers to the Pathfinder adventures and setting books do much the same. Even when they have solitary figures in a pose, those figures often have stories to tell with their expressions, stance, and dress/equipment. It's not a problem with the artist, he can definitely pull off dynamic, energy packed pieces, going by his art for SW and L5R. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jan 2013 : 12:56:56
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This is the basic concept appearance of new D&D orcs, eh?
It's not quite my preference, based largely on AD&D 2E orc artwork, but it's also not anywhere as bad as it could have been. At least the focus isn't an exaggerated boars head or big rubber green anime thug or just another hypertestosterone human with bad teeth. To my eye these concept watercolour plates mimic the general style of 4E, not always detailed the way I would prefer but with far more technical skill than most 2E-era stuff. I do like how colour-plates are the standard, I don't like when it produces garish cartoony graphics. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 19 Jan 2013 12:59:55 |
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Ammag
Acolyte
USA
19 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jan 2013 : 15:53:24
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| It's like the Walt Disney version of the Forgotten Realms. I don't know if that's a good or bad thing. |
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crazedventurers
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1073 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jan 2013 : 16:07:14
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bring back Larry Elmore et al......
Cheers
Damian |
So saith Ed. I've never said he was sane, have I?
Gods, all this writing and he's running a constant fantasy version of Coronation Street in his head, too. .
shudder,
love to all,
THO
Candlekeep Forum 7 May 2005 |
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Kajehase
Great Reader
Sweden
2104 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jan 2013 : 16:24:28
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I'd say the wood elf and the Northland humans wouldn't look that out of place in an Elmore piece.
Not that keen on the halfling look - it's a tad to reminiscent of "little people" - in my mind they're proportioned as humans, just very short. |
There is a rumour going around that I have found god. I think is unlikely because I have enough difficulty finding my keys, and there is empirical evidence that they exist.
Terry Pratchett |
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Ammag
Acolyte
USA
19 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jan 2013 : 18:09:12
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Now that I think about it, the ones that work for me are more realistic in their proportions, and draw me in to the alternate reality I'm being offered.
The ones that don't work for me have cartoonish proportions, and take me out of the alternate reality I'm being offered.
Specifically, heads that are too small and legs that are too thin make me feel like I'm looking at a cutesy Disney cartoon, rather than a wonderful fantasy world full of harrowing challenges to overcome (realistically, legs are the strongest part of the body since they have to carry around everything else all day).
The canine body/heads on the Hell Hound and Worgs don't look very canine-like, which doesn't work for me personally. The Displacer Beast looks great to me though, and the Gnoll looks awesome so clearly the artist is capable of doing realistic animal parts, so I guess it's just a matter of personal preference for fantastical over realistic. I too love the mean looking Goblin, and am glad it's not a comic-relief Goblin. The Giant's proportions don't really work for me (heads/legs too small for arms/bodies), but strangely the Bugbear looks too normal, like he's just a normal hairy bear-faced guy dressed for a job interview in Waterdeep. The other monsters look great, I think.
The humans all look great except that human barbarian (E)'s head is too small. Dwarves look great, Elves look great, Gnome looks great, Halflings... I'm iffy. Maybe a little less size in the noggin and more in the legs.
Another thing that really works for me is the misty look in the wide shot of the monsters. I love it. That kind of background and environment effect really makes me feel like I'm there, and that you never know what sorts of monsters lurk in the unseen parts of this fantasy world.
It's always a challenge for an artist to balance the realism and fantasy in Fantasy Realism to maximize both the suspension of disbelief and the element of wonder. |
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Old Man Harpell
Senior Scribe
USA
497 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jan 2013 : 18:44:51
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quote:
Originally posted by crazedventurers
bring back Larry Elmore et al.....
+1 to this.
Overall, the work is excellent, particularly the non-humanoid monster races. But when it comes to adventurer's races, you simply cannot beat Elmore, Caldwell, Brom, and so forth. Some may think them a bit 'dated', but I would argue 'timeless' is a much more accurate moniker.
Regardless, looking forward to the final offering.
- OMH |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jan 2013 : 19:05:41
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| Artists can change and revise their styles, that's basically the whole purpose behind such concept "test" art. The imaginations of past D&D artists have done a lot to shape the game, but the Wizbro art managers and brand managers and market researchers have final say ... if kids today are impressed by WoW-like powergamed spiky anime ninja beasts yet they disdain stuffy slow and weak characters of yestergame then Wizbro will keep up by changing the face of D&D ... assuming they intend to actually sell the product. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jan 2013 : 21:39:45
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Not thrilled with the hobbits - I just got used to them being skinny (although I have both kinds... in fact, I have all kinds they don't even have). I guess we are getting back the 'cherub-faced' look again.
Most of them are very good (some proportions seem to be off, which I suppose is fine for non-humans, but one of the humans has a smallish head). The giants probably look the most off, and the dwarf is a bit too 'blocky' (although he IS a dwarf, so whatever). Not thrilled with the female dwarf either - a little too much 'German Grandmother' for my taste. No wonder dwarves don't like to breed with their women (and here I thought it was the beards that ruined the mood).
The only one I have to say I actively dislike a LOT is the Turami guy - trying a bit too hard to make him 'look black'. Its almost condescending. ("its a black guy... lets make him sing and dance!")
I love both owlbears - an old time favorite of mine. There are technically two types in FR (the other is a bigger, nastier 'dire' version we read about in Cormyr: A Novel), so I don't know why they aren't going to use the first one as well (which certainly looks like a more 'prehistoric' variety).
All in all, except for the unintentional Turami faux pas, I'd say I like them a lot. The barbarians are a bit more civilized looking then I pictured, but that's okay - it has been more then a century at this point since we 'met' them. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 19 Jan 2013 21:42:18 |
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Caolin
Senior Scribe
769 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jan 2013 : 01:11:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
The only one I have to say I actively dislike a LOT is the Turami guy - trying a bit too hard to make him 'look black'. Its almost condescending. ("its a black guy... lets make him sing and dance!")
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jan 2013 : 02:02:10
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I think the singing and dancing can be explained by the piece's title: Turami Bard.
And the wiki claims that Turami comes from Turmish, where "the people are tall and mahogany-skinned".
Other than that, yeah, it's a substandard composition when compared to most of the other pieces in that gallery. Bad art doesn't need to insult people to be bad art. |
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Razz
Senior Scribe
USA
749 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jan 2013 : 02:14:15
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| Yeah he is right. Why not a full armored Turami paladin or a swashbuckler? Or *gasp* a scholarly wizard? The art screams STEREOTYPE! |
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Ammag
Acolyte
USA
19 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jan 2013 : 02:29:23
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| I'd hate to see this art critique thread be derailed because of FR parallels to real life historical cultures. The northern barbarian is a stereotype. |
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
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Ozreth
Learned Scribe
194 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jan 2013 : 06:32:34
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Wait, are these hand drawn/painted? I don't know much about art but they look computer generated to me...
If done by hand then they are pretty awesome, but I definitely get the Disney vibe mentioned earlier. Also not sure if it's a good or bad thing... |
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MrHedgehog
Senior Scribe
688 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jan 2013 : 06:55:52
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| It is so cartoonish I want to throw up |
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MalariaMoon
Learned Scribe
324 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jan 2013 : 07:57:54
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| Wow, those halflings have enormous heads. Otherwise I like what I see so far |
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Dark Wizard
Senior Scribe
USA
830 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jan 2013 : 08:03:17
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I noticed the Turami bard seeming a stereotype before, but figured it was an innocent, unintentional faux paus. The halflings bugged me more (but only by a little) so I mentioned them instead, but since the issue was brought up.
The Turami bard for whatever reason reminds me of Jar Jar Binks. It's a combination of the silly expression, the portrayal of a "minority" in the happy go-lucky "support role", and the need to be overtly ethnic complete with ridiculously look or getup, in this case impractical drums. If he was part of a band/orchestra/drum circle sure, traveling with those things slung over his back, ouch. No matter how the mechanics for the bard turn out in the next edition, the bard just became useful by running slower than everyone else. :P Wayne Reynolds might load this character images with gear, but it's usually functional or non-obtrusive equipment.
Every adventuring portrait gets to wear practical clothing. A bard can wear light armor in 3E, not familiar with 4E, but don't expect that to change. This guy is wearing a vest robe thing with exposed torso areas. This despite Turami being known for their pride in their ornate armors (unless that changed too in 4E). Could argue for this character opting for something different, but all the other characters should then have their style.
The depiction of Turami in the 4E already bugged me a little as they shifted from the culturally-ambiguous, fantasy-infused look of the Turami wizard on the cover of Complete Arcane to the sub-Saharan pseudo-African look in the FRCG (and I don't think the man's beard was square at all). To me the 4E image looked generic (drawing out of an old encyclopedia), the 3E image was distinct ("That guy's from Turmish"). The Turami names in the 3E FRCS have an Italian/Mediterranean sound to them. Not sure if this was how it was always intended, but it added to their cultural nebulousness. Certainly the names still hold as one of the books of the upcoming Sundering series features a Turami character named Anton Marivaldi (a name combo straight from that page in the 3E FRCS).
An image that always scream Turmish/Turami to me was Todd Lockwood's painting for the magic card Kiss of Amesha. He has it listed as "Kiss" in his gallery: http://www.toddlockwood.com/galleries/new_art/05/kiss.shtml
Here it is bigger, http://theartofmagic.tumblr.com/post/21322331926/kiss-of-the-amesha-art-by-todd-lockwood
The warrior is missing the beard, but it's all there, the mahogany skin, the ornate armor, the coins in the angel's hair. Turami are generally good folk, and Tyr is a venerated god there. Put a beard on the guy and we have ourselves a Turami paladin or knight. |
Edited by - Dark Wizard on 20 Jan 2013 08:03:54 |
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Caolin
Senior Scribe
769 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jan 2013 : 09:06:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Ozreth
Wait, are these hand drawn/painted? I don't know much about art but they look computer generated to me...
If done by hand then they are pretty awesome, but I definitely get the Disney vibe mentioned earlier. Also not sure if it's a good or bad thing...
Most art work like this is usually done digitally in Photoshop now a days. It's way cheaper than an actual physical painting or drawing. And don't discount art work done digitally. It still requires a skilled hand to produce good art. |
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Thauranil
Master of Realmslore
India
1591 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jan 2013 : 10:54:38
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| Decent stuff but bit too old fashioned for my taste. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36823 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jan 2013 : 14:24:37
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I don't care for the halflings or gnomes; their heads are too big.
I'm also wondering if 5E is going to preserve the glow-in-the-dark genasi or go back to the near-human appearance of earlier editions. Ditto for tieflings. That was one of many elements I disliked about 4E. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jan 2013 : 14:24:43
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While I do have various problems with them, the only other thing I could add is that "it could have been WAY worse". There are all sorts of directions they could have went in here, and what they seem to be doing is embracing D&D's roots. So if the artwork looks 'dated' or 'uninspired', at least it looks like D&D (at least how I picture things). What would we have preferred, a dwarf with a shotgun, a Paladin with chrome armor, or a steampunk wizard with some sort of 'Tesla Wand'?
Remmber, these aren't illustrations in the normal sense - they are 'concept art'. They aren't supposed to be doing anything out of the ordinary... in fact, they are SUPPOSED TO BE quite ordinary. This is their 'what we usually think of' look. We aren't supposed to be seeing Superman, we are supposed to see Clark Kent.
quote:
Originally posted by Dark Wizard
I noticed the Turami bard seeming a stereotype before, but figured it was an innocent, unintentional faux paus.
Which s precisely what I said - I don't think it was intentional... I am just annoyed that others had to point this out to them, and no-one working there even thought of this problem. Thats not good at all (thats the "we were so busy slapping ourselves on the back we weren't even paying attention to what we were doing" syndrome that got them in trouble in 4e, IMHO).
They need to step back, and reconsider EVERY decision at this point. And for god sakes, use focus groups - that weeds this kind of crap out (or are we the focus group?) It shouldn't matter who in house thinks something is 'uber kewl', its what the consumers think. If we don't like something, don't force it down our throats. When you have to do dozens of podcasts just to explain your reasoning behind your decisions, that should have been a 'wake up call'. Good ideas don't need that much explaining... then it just sounds like you are making excuses (and the podcasts just fan the flames). If you come out with something and the fans say, "Now THAT is cool!" you don't need to explain yourself... you just sit back and smile.
All that being said, the art is acceptable. It appeals to the lowest common denominator. The more detailed they make it, and the more 'extreme' the directions they go in, the more people will take issues with particular points. This art doesn't have to be what these things look like in our games - they are just so designers have a common ground to stand on when THEY picture it (because they need that, otherwise we end up with a mess).
And if some of you think it is 'cartoony', then I can only hope we get a cartoon. Hasbro has made a fortune off their IPs doing cartoons in the past, and we could use that sort of 'mainstream coverage' right now. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 20 Jan 2013 14:26:44 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36823 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jan 2013 : 14:28:03
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
quote:
Originally posted by Dark Wizard
I noticed the Turami bard seeming a stereotype before, but figured it was an innocent, unintentional faux paus.
Which s precisely what I said - I don't think it was intentional... I am just sorry that other shad to point this out to them, and no-one working there even thought of this problem. Thats not good at all (thats the "we were so busy slapping ourselves on the back we weren't even paying attention to what we were doing" syndrome that got them in trouble in 4e, IMHO).
They need to step back, and reconsider EVERY decision at this point. And for god sakes, use focus groups - that weeds this kind of crap out (or are we the focus group?) It shouldn't matter who in house thinks something is 'uber kewl', its what the consumers think. If we don't like something, don't force it down our throats. When you have to do dozens of podcasts just to explain your reasoning behind your decisions, that should have been a 'wake up call'. Good ideas don't need that much explaining... then it just sounds like you are making excuses (and the podcasts just fan the flames). If you come out with something and the fans say, "Now THAT is cool!" you don't need to explain yourself... you just sit back and smile.
I think we also need to keep in mind that this concept art is not being shared by WotC. We don't know if this is the final art, or just preliminary designs. And even if it is the final art, we don't know that it's all going to be used by WotC. It's entirely possible that the final, published work will not including the bard, or that it'll be a bard of a different ethnic group.
I also concur that it is unlikely to be deliberate stereotyping. I can't see WotC doing that. I've questioned a lot of their decisions, the last few years, but they never went that far. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 20 Jan 2013 14:30:18 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jan 2013 : 14:44:06
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Quite the opposite, I think. I recall some great debate (circa 3E or 4E?) about somebody from WotC stating that they were trying to explicitly represent non-Asian monks in the artwork.
Welcome to the internet, a place where anonymous random people are quick to overreact to every perceived slight. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jan 2013 : 14:58:26
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I didn't react to it - thus far no-one here really did. We were just pointing out how others could possibly perceive it.
Suppose they came out with posters & cardboard displays for book and games stores for 5e's release (you know... like the great ones they had for 3e's release), and all the 'white people' looked like like heroes, and the two 'black people' looked like an entertainer (the Turami guy) and a thug/thief (a drow slinking about with dagger in-hand). How do you think the general (less-informed) public will perceive it?
These are things that need to be addressed before they DO become a problem. We aren't complaining (yet), we are trying to help.
Also, while I am on this subject, we need at least one non-super model heroine in the group. I don't want to see it go completely the other way (making them all 'butch' would be equally condescending), but it wouldn't be a bad idea to have a fairly 'normal' looking female (who might be a bit on the chunky side) as one of the iconics. This isn't 1975, and 13 year old boys aren't the only ones playing this game anymore.
And I meant to address this in my last post - whatever you guys say about this art (especially the 'cartoony' comments), at least it doesn't look like Pathfinder. I HATE their covers (some of their inside art is quite good, but that cover art is a real turn-off for me). This art reminds me a lot of the Baldur's Gate/Neverwinter VG art, and for many folks that was their initiation to the Realms. They tried the 'new & improved' look in 4e, and I'd rather see 'boring' then more of that. 'Boring' means it looks just like what we expect, and thats NOT necessarily a bad thing. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jan 2013 : 16:15:26
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Most of the females in that gallery are rather ordinary to my eyes, if perhaps a bit too slender as a group (but hey, they're probably active instead of being fattened by deskjobs and television). I'm not seeing any supermodel glam.
The barbarians look more like generic Scandanavian villagers to me. If we're arguing about stereotype depictions then I am actually a bit dismayed that the barbs don't look as hardy and fierce as I'd prefer. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36823 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jan 2013 : 18:01:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
And I meant to address this in my last post - whatever you guys say about this art (especially the 'cartoony' comments), at least it doesn't look like Pathfinder. I HATE their covers (some of their inside art is quite good, but that cover art is a real turn-off for me). This art reminds me a lot of the Baldur's Gate/Neverwinter VG art, and for many folks that was their initiation to the Realms. They tried the 'new & improved' look in 4e, and I'd rather see 'boring' then more of that. 'Boring' means it looks just like what we expect, and thats NOT necessarily a bad thing.
I personally don't think Pathfinder art looks anything like 4E art. I like most of the Pathfinder covers -- especially compared to some of what WotC gave us during 3E and 4E. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Concept art for 5th ed Forgotten Realms
