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Xar Zarath
Senior Scribe
Malaysia
552 Posts |
 Posted - 04 Jan 2013 : 04:30:58
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Hello everyone. I posted this questions quite a few times in last years scroll for Ed and THO but I was rather inconsiderate to Ed and THO's time, so i will begin this thread for fellow scribes to post their theories and assumptions. Below is my original questions.
"Dear Ed and THO, in many of Ed's novels, wizards who cast scrying spells sometimes do so without the aid of a crystal ball or mirror etc, instead creating a orb of magical energies focused on scring. How does that work out? Is making a scrying sphere better than an apparatus of scrying?? Would like to hear your answers and thoughts on this."
What i was wondering also is it possible for mages to cast scrying spells without a focus but simply creating a sort of spell whorl to see through. As has been displayed in the 2nd book of the Twilight War trilogy, even Erevis Cale could cast a scrying spell by using the shadows leaking off his body to be used as a mirror of sorts...
Mod Edit: Shifted to a more appropriate shelf.
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Everything ends where it begins. Period.
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Edited by - Xar Zarath on 04 Jan 2013 05:21:54
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4687 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jan 2013 : 04:51:52
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It is more of how it works out for the caster in many cases. Other times might be second or third best way, because a mirror or crystal ball is available.
The caster clearly needs a focus point, some use fire , a pool of water, fog, smoke, fog and so on. They use the best way they can and some likely would do worst with a mirror. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jan 2013 : 04:52:25
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I believe the methods used (manipulated energy to form a semblance of a sphere, or an actual apparatus) do no matter that much. The effectiveness of the scrying lies heavily on the scryer's skills, and the target's resistance. Take Brennus for example. He's powerful enough to scry almost anyone in the Realms, but he's never managed to scry Elminster, despite several (futile) attempts. Distance, I believe, is also a factor. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Xar Zarath
Senior Scribe
Malaysia
552 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jan 2013 : 05:20:33
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| In the first book of the Twilight Wars trilogy, he did manage to pierce some of the Old Mage's spells and scry on him, granted it was a image only but that still says something about his skill. |
Everything ends where it begins. Period.
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jan 2013 : 05:28:54
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No, it was just Elminster's image, which attracted (like magnet) all scrying spells directed at him. So, no, he didn't manage to scry the "true" Elminster. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jan 2013 : 14:28:42
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I think for weaker mages, a device is (almost) always necesary, but as you rise in poser you don't need such 'trinkets'
On the other hand, if you have such power already, then artifact-class scrying devices could possibly increase your power exponentially (allowing someone like Brennus to actually pierce Elminster's shields).
This is one of those many case-by-case basis things. A diviner specialist probably has lots of ways to do his thing without devices, and yet still has devices should the need arise.
The one I really have a problem with is devices of flying. Whats the point? Why brooms and carpets? I understand the flavor-thing, but in an all-inclusive set of fantasy rules like D&D its pretty damn redundant. One thing I'd love to see in 5e is better integration of everything. Too much lore (and crunch) just stands by itself, with no connection to similar things.
And to bring this back on-topic, that includes scrying spells, diviners, and scrying devices. For instance, 'amount of detail' should be determined mostly by the Mage's power, and 'range' should be mostly derived from device used. A mage would have an inherent power & range based on his level and the spell used. A device would have a simlar wrtie-up (just as they do now). But when a mage uses a spell, he should be able to use a device to augment his spell. This means that ALL magical devices should come with a power-rating; a number you use to multiply effects from the same school (within limitations of course, and NO stacking).
This means someone like Larloch can do a lot with his spells, and see pretty damn far all on his own. However, if he uses a crystal ball or some-such his range increases (but NOT his abilities - he can still only determine the type of information normally granted by the spell he is using). This way, every magic device would work like it does in stories - they can be used to boost a Mage's inherent abilities, and also still have their own powers. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 05 Jan 2013 15:49:29 |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jan 2013 : 14:57:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I think for weaker mages, a device is (almost) always necesary, but as you rise in poser you don't need such 'trinkets'
On the other hand, if you have such power already, then artifact-class scrying devices could possibly increase your power exponentially (allowing someone like Brennus to actually pierce Elminster's shields).
As a matter of fact, he did use an artifact of some sort---a cube-shaped shadow mirror.
Alassra, in Lynn Abbey's The Simbul's Gift, also used some items (a basin filled with water, if I remember it right) in scrying for the zulkirs. And she was able to see them all.
Telamont, using his world-window, pretty much sees nigh everything.
Szass Tam, despite his weak state after the Spellplague and prior to receiving power-boost from Bane, managed to scry both the Weave and the Shadow Weave without using any magical artifact. He simply cast a rather complicated spell.
With these different examples, can you really say that artifacts/magical baubles are needed for scrying, and that they actually augment the caster's spell? It boils down to my previous point: the success and failure of scrying just depends on who does the scrying and who/what the target is. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jan 2013 : 15:05:38
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I agree with Dennis; the critical factors are the diviner's magic vs the target's resistance.
Rules for basic difficulty of scrying attempts are given in the game, based on familiarity with the target, etc etc.
I interpret the "format" of the scrying device to be something of a matter of preference and convenience. Diviners might sometimes prefer or need a portable or "ad hoc" scrying device (like a crystal ball, pool of liquid, or facets within a jewel), doubly useful if the scrying object can also function as a component for other magics ... other times diviners might prefer permanent fixtures (like a mirror, windowpane, or even the empty space in a doorframe), these devices could more easily accommodate additional minor divinations to assist in general scrying. I'd expect many magic practitioners have little choice on the matter and just know whatever few specific tricks and methods they were taught, unless they research the topic in more depth.
I'd think scrying would be somewhat similar to watching television (although with a little bit more exertion of mental power). Some people are comfortable with "normal" flatscreens, others prefer tiny display panels or monstrously huge wall-mounted screens which dominate a room, some even prefer "old fashioned" cathode ray tubes. It really boils down to taste, budget, and how much space you got ... although a diviner often has to construct his own device, so his options might be limited by his skills and resources. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jan 2013 : 15:21:48
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"Once upon a time...in an edition long long ago..."
Scrying devices were used because they were required as a component of the spell...and certain devices dramatically increased your chances of success.
Novels are a different matter...and creative license goes a long way to help an author get away from the same ol' "crystal balls and mirrors" routine.
Having said that, I don't see why using a material component of a different sort is any different at all. If you are using smoke, water, or even a crystal ball...you have a material component for the scrying. This would hold true even if the "component" were a spell conjured one...because I have done that very thing with the spell Fabricate. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jan 2013 : 16:48:59
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But different devices (and perhaps even different components within those devices, like holy water in a scrying pool) should give different bonuses to scry, and yes, some of them could be for more then just range.
For instance, suppose someone has a bowl of scrying, and they try to see what the local Trolls are up to, but they are either out of range or something else is interfering. So the mage pours some troll blood into the bowl and wallah, NOW he can see them.
Of course, to do this right, you'd have to create an entire system just just around scrying and diviners. They should do a splat on that... I'm sure at least three of us would buy it. 
I use a spell point system, so I can also use the trick of adding 'more power' into a divination to make it work. Sadly, the Vancian system (and I believe 4e) really can't handle that kind of mechanic. This method mimics the story-driven trope that a diviner can be exhausted after a very difficult scry attempt. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 04 Jan 2013 16:49:26 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11809 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jan 2013 : 17:16:47
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| You know, I believe 3.5 was a definite improvement over 3.0, but the one thing I always wished they'd found some means to leave in was the scry skill. Now I know they got rid of it because clerics/druids/sorcerors/bards didn't necessarily have enough skill points, but I'd have loved to have seen some other mechanic (and one could be developed) used to show some people being really good at stopping or doing scrying. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jan 2013 : 17:22:02
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| Necromancers and Illusionists have plenty of write-up. But Diviners are ... well, they're boring. I think they have all sorts of advantages but in the typical gaming context they're a poor choice for a PCs and heroes and villains. About the most interesting concept I could imagine would be some sort of detective-diviner "mystery" gaming, which sort of intrudes on the traditional role of thieves. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jan 2013 : 19:07:47
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They could prove viable if you gave them benefits outside of what we would consider 'the norm'. For instance, something akin to Spiderman's 'spidey sense' (which could be as simple as a level bonus to dodge/AC).
A Diviner might not be the best choice for some who wanted a good combat build, but it would be an amazing RP opportunity, for groups so-inclined.
DM: "Roll Dice" (to the Diviner)
Diviner" {rolls dice}
DM: You see an intersting type of plant on the side of the road. you are not sure why, but you pick a few leaves and put them in your pack.
(MUCH later)
Thorinn Cedarshield: "Argh! I killed the blimey bugger, but it bit me with its poisonous fangs! Argrrr! The pain!"
Penelope Prettyface: "and my spells aren't working! Oh, the horror!"
Big Timmy: "Isa Thorinn gonna die?"
DM: "Diviner, you suddenly get a vision in your mind's eye" (he hands the Diviner a scrap of paper with a picture of leaves on it).
Diviner: "Hey guys! Wait... I just thought of something! (takes out leaves} here, eat this!
Party: Yay! Thorinn's gonna live! Diviner is good! (and we really should give him a name!)
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"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 04 Jan 2013 19:08:40 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11809 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jan 2013 : 21:57:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Necromancers and Illusionists have plenty of write-up. But Diviners are ... well, they're boring. I think they have all sorts of advantages but in the typical gaming context they're a poor choice for a PCs and heroes and villains. About the most interesting concept I could imagine would be some sort of detective-diviner "mystery" gaming, which sort of intrudes on the traditional role of thieves.
Along those lines, they do make decent bounty hunters, especially if paired with say the eldritch knight & spellsword. Since they only give up one school of magic (which if they're good.... roleplaying wise it can be necromancy, though that is a pretty good school). |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Xar Zarath
Senior Scribe
Malaysia
552 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jan 2013 : 10:02:21
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| I have to agree, while Divination is useful, the whole aspect of scrying can be easily boiled down to the roleplaying effect. A system that boosts the scrying skill would be useful like what Markustay said about the troll blood scenario. A simple crystal orb, or spell spun mirror would not be as powerful unless the caster was powerful (dc could be added somewhere here) and consecrating the devices could be a +5 or something towards finding a particular monster etc. |
Everything ends where it begins. Period.
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11809 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jan 2013 : 15:25:51
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| yeah, but not all of the bonuses should be item based... and the item bonuses shouldn't be so significant that they overpower the bonuses someone who spends time/effort to build skill in scrying provides (which in 3.5 is nothing, but when there was a skill for it....). |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jan 2013 : 15:47:06
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Why not?
If someone (a simple farmboy) found an artifact-level scrying device, it should be able to do some epic-level scrying, despite his complete lack of abiliities. I personally feel the two are separate issues.
If someone like Larlcoh - who is a consumate scryer - got a hold of something like Sauron's Palantir, it should increase his own awesome power exponentially, IMHO.
This is why I feel all scrying devices should have some very basic abilities built-in, and then also be 'power multipliers' for Mages trained in their use. As I said above, I think ALL magic items should be designed this way. Think about it - weapons already are. In the hands of a person trained in their use magical weapons are awesome, but to someone who is not trained, they can only call-upon whatever other abilities the weapon might have (like glowing when goblins are around).
IMO, a wand of Fireballs should do more in the hands of an Evoker then it does in someone else's. I am currently testing out some rules for that in my current campaign. Wizards carry staffs and wands for a reason, and not because they store spells. The game system doesn't properly reflect most (non-D&D) fiction. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 05 Jan 2013 15:48:50 |
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Xar Zarath
Senior Scribe
Malaysia
552 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2013 : 02:50:15
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| What spells could you use through your scrying focus? If you created one yourself, how could you cast spells through it, or what spells would you allow to be cast? |
Everything ends where it begins. Period.
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2013 : 08:52:53
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I'd recommend you read the descriptions for spells and for magical scrying devices, and for things like contingency and permanency which can be used in the layering of such spells or construction of such devices.
As a DM, I shamelessly stole inspiration from any source which impressed me. Rather than be constrained by the minor details in generic D&D descriptors, I think it's better to imagine a specific scrying style or theme and figure out it's capabilities then focus on determining which D&D rules need to be applied or which need (through spell research) to be modified/created. A gnomish inventrix who builds a mechanical telescope capable of somehow viewing every layer of the Abyss is not going to know (or care) about "normal" scrying limitations. A priest-sorcerer of Leira might construct scrying orbs which somehow deceive the observer or permit illusion magics to be cast through them remotely. One of my favourite magical items of all time was a simple pocket telescope with a permenant clairaudience effect, allowing the user to hear the scene being viewed.
In a bad movie (Deathstalker 2), evil Jarek the Sorcerer uses a misty pool of murky churning water as his scrying device, having a sort of "video chat" with a minion gazing into a similar pool far away ... Jarek asks his incompetent minion to lean closer, then impales him by stabbing the image in his pool with a sword (the stabbed minion can be seen slumping over his pool, while Jarek's sword is seen firmly "stuck" into something just below the surface on his end).
In a better movie (The Fifth Element), an evil extra-planar entity uses a cordless telephone to communicate with megalomaniacal Jean-Baptiste Emanuel Zorg ... through which it (deliberately or "unconsciously") casts some sort of unpleasant psychic-crush attack when expressing displeasure.
In a good movie (The Matrix), "operators" use advanced computers to remotely scry on people within the simulated world of the Matrix, their perceptions are non-visual (unless they can make sense out of that green digital rain stuff) and they can only communicate by voice-phone, but they are able to implement "hacks" which can grant all sorts of supernatural powers and changes to certain people (and their surroundings) within the Matrix.
In a great movie (original Empire Strikes Back), Darth Vader regularly communicates with people through holographic transmissions, through which he sometimes manipulates the Force to cast his signature strangle-pinch.
If you're trying to determine the "best" scrying device then just get a classic crystal ball or mirror of mental prowess. Scrying is powerful, but has limits ... there are many other (and sometimes better) magical and mundane methods for obtaining information. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 11 Jan 2013 09:08:59 |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2013 : 09:31:19
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The Holliwells always use a scrying crystal and a map. One just holds the cord attached to the crystal over the map, casts a basic finding spell, and the crystal pinpoints the location. However, if the "target" is not on earth (in the heavens, hell, or some other unknown plane or dimension), or is cloaked by layers of powerful anti-divination spells, then the crystal is useless. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Scrying Spells and Divinations
