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creyzi4zb12
Learned Scribe
Philippines
129 Posts |
 Posted - 03 Dec 2011 : 22:07:10
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According the Sarrukh legend Ouroborous was the leader of the gods during the war with primordials...Since very little is known about The World Serpent maybe he is Ao with a different name in Sarrukh lore.
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
USA
1291 Posts |
Posted - 12 Dec 2011 : 14:21:19
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He's definitely not Ao. Ao is not a god. He does not require worship and does not want it. He does not grant prayers or spells. Overgods are a different thing from gods.
However, I have always thought that the World Serpent was Chauntea. One of the earliest versions of her, before she became fragmented. Note that there is no reason for Chauntea to be human-shaped. She existed long before any humans existed on Toril. "Chauntea" is just the human conception of her.
Each of the creator races likely had their own conceptions of her. The aquatic creator race probably conceived of her as an octopus. The fey creator race likely envisaged her in fey form. And it follows that the Sarrukh would have seen her as a scalyfolk. In the Days of Thunder there were not so many gods as there are now. They have multiplied over the ages, but in the beginning there were few, and Chauntea, the god of life, seems the most likely candidate.
An alternative theory is that the World Serpent was a gestalt deity, perhaps like the Adama. The thinking being that, as monotheists, the Sarrukh and their kin worshiped all divinity as aspects of a single godhead. Each portfolio, each "aspect" was just one facet, one scale, of a unified whole.
The World Serpent may still be around in a fashion. Some people think his last vestige/aspect is the inn-keeper of the World Serpent Inn. For more information and clues check out Eric Boyd's write-up of the World Serpent Inn, it's a good read, and I think could be mined for some interesting lore. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 12 Dec 2011 : 17:14:25
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I would say that Chauntea (Chantee in the East) is actually just a proxy/exarch/avatar/whatever of The Earthmother, who is a much more primal earth deity, and I think that the Earthmother is indeed the World Serpent.
I have discussed it elsewhere - I think primordials work through 'lesser' (and I use that term very loosely) beings in order to interact with mortals (rather then directly), so the few that do wish to have some relationship need these 'underlings' to grant spells and take care of the day-to-day business of godhood. That means some deities may actually be self-aware avatars (Greater Manifestations) of primordials. These could, conceivably, gain independence from its parent 'god', and that probably happens a lot throughout time, for various reasons.
So the relationship between deities and primordials is similar to the relationship between Exarchs and deities. And just as Exarchs can rebel against their 'creator' (Sammaster), so too did the deities against their 'masters' during the Godwar. This is actually a fairly common occurrence in mythology.
I am going a little beyond the topic, so I will try to get back on-track. 
Ao was/is probably a Primordial (which are a segment of a group I dubbed 'The Ordials') - A group of beings who themselves were created by True Gods (the Watching Gods) to be the go-between of The Overworld (Heavens) and the material one. I think the Orientals got religion the closest to how things really work - the entire universe is one massive bureaucracy; a hierarchy of ever-increasing powerful beings. However, Ao was also able to 'banish' primordials to Abeir, so he/it also appears to have more power then they (He may be something I call a 'High Ordial').
Either way, it is likely The World Serpent is the Earthmother, and highly unlikely Ao is either of those beings (given that he is mentioned separately from Chauntea in the creation myths). Ao represents the entire sphere, not just one world, and also all the other non-physical aspects of the sphere, like time, energy, technological level, etc, etc. He is basically THE God of Realmspace (but not beyond - his power beyond Realmspace, if any, is unknown).
Realmspace is his Domain, and just like Godly domains, he controls every single aspect of it. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 12 Dec 2011 17:15:17 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 12 Dec 2011 : 19:25:27
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| I'd thought it was already established that the Earthmother of the Moonshae is either an aspect (essentially a different identity) of Chauntea or a very similar deity who works with/as Chauntea within her (Moonshae) domain. |
[/Ayrik] |
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rjfras
Learned Scribe
261 Posts |
Posted - 13 Dec 2011 : 00:06:53
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In the Moonshae FR accessory (FR2) from 1987 it says:
The Goddess, Earthmother
The goddess of the Moonshaes is an aspect of the benign goddess Chauntea (Chawn-TEE-ah), who is worshiped throughout the Realms as the neutral good goddess of agriculture. As she is worshiped in the Moonshaes, however, her aspect is shaped differently than it is in any other part of the Realms.
Where Chauntea is generally worshiped as a goddess of agriculture, the earthmother is much more a goddess of nature. Agriculture as an aspect of nature she regards kindly, but agriculture as an attempt to master the land becomes a grave threat to her existence.
The earth goddess does not have a physical form in which her worshipers can see her, other than the world that is all around them.
Of course the Forgotten Realms Campaign Box Set also from 1987 says:
Earthmother, called only "the goddess" on the Moonshae Isles, who may or may not be an aspect of Chauntea. This lesser power is venerated only on the Moonshae islands,
The Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting Box Set from 1993 says:
Earthmother
The Earthmother of the Moonshae Islands is an example of a local deity of great power. She has little influence or recognition outside the Moonshaes, but within that area she reigns supreme as the greater power. Thought of as merely a shard or facet of Chauntea, the Earthmother is more of a well-rounded nature goddess, incorporating both agriculture and wilderness, and devoted to the preservation of the balance.
and in the Netherial Empire of Magic Box Set, from 1996, you have another Earthmother:
when the western lands, controlled loosely by barbaric tribesmen who were “sired by the consummation of the Earthmother (an aspect of Jannath) and a wolf,” were deemed an easier target.
Jannath is supposed to have been what Chauntea was known as in ancient times.
But by 3rd edition, there in no more possibly, thought of or may or may not be anymore, such as the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting book:
Religions: Chauntea (in an aspect as the Earthmother) among the Ffolk,
But you also have to remember that the Earthmother was added later by TSR, not Ed. From Ed in 2005:
Yes, some gods were added by the TSR staff (the first of these being Doug Niles's Earthmother, I believe), the existing ones (e.g. Lolth) were stitched into the Realms, and the Great God Show really got going, to become the thundering locomotive it is today (and STILL no full priesthood details, with creeds and aims and practises and vestments and so on and so forth).
Chauntea was just known as the "Great Mother" in 1981 when "THE DEITIES & DEMIGODS OF THE FORGOTTEN REALMS: Human Deities" were printed in Dragon 54 by Ed.
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Edited by - rjfras on 13 Dec 2011 00:09:13 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 13 Dec 2011 : 02:49:34
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Master Gray's gestalt-deity notion and this talk about proto-Chauntea all reminds me of Swinburne's Hertha, wherein it is lyrically asserted that Nature is primarily fundamental and takes precedence over Man and his god(s). It's interesting to note that the earliest origins of nearly all human faiths derive from the pagan archetypes of the Earth-moon-nature-fertility goddess (who is invariably born into the world, then gives birth to her first worshippers) and/or of the patriarchal-sun-sky-warrior-king god (who invariably creates the world, then creates his first worshippers). Which is the more prominent influence in the creation myth of the Realms, Jannath/Chauntea or Ao?
Guide to Hell (2E quasi-Planescape lore) contains summarized text from an ancient treatise it names Serpents of Law, submitted by an archivist named Crystos, which describes the dawn of the universe and the planes. It says that the Twin Serpents, Jazirian and Ahriman, were the first two of the many gods who spontaneously coalesced out of the swirling cosmic chaos; they became intertwined in a balance of eternal opposition, each consuming the tail of the other and together forming the regenerating World Serpent, Ouroboros. The entire structure of the planes was defined into being by the subsequent cooperative and conflicting actions of this Ouroboros dichotomy, apparently evidenced by all things great and small being arranged as layers of circles within circles. Both Jazirian and Ahriman were so wounded and diminished by their struggles and their powers so spent after creating the many planes that other gods were finally able to usurp them and populate these newly formed planes with their own pantheons. Noble Jazirian became a recluse dwelling in the clouds of her invisible realm, Uroboros, the Gates of Wisdom, somewhere above and beyond the boundaries of Solania, Fourth layer of the Seven Heavens; from each drop of her spilled blood rose the first and the purest of the celestial beings. Hateful Ahriman was much more seriously wounded, his blood spawned the first and most powerful of the fiends, he is now known as Horned Asmodeus and rules all the devils of the Nine Hells from his throne on Nessus, deepest layer of Baator.
Other sources state that Jazirian's blood formed the race of couatls, and that they believe the (male) manifestation of Jazirian they worship is a highly purified aspect of the impossible-unattainable perfect World Serpent archetype. They also believe that all other gods (most especially Io, Merrshaulk, Shekinister, Ramenos, and Beltar) are imperfect, immature, or corrupted manifestations of the same. Further, they show great pride (and arrogance) over being able to perceive these "truths" which are beyond the unsophisticated comprehensions of all other religions.
I suggest that this lore could fit well into canon if one accepts the "lesser" Jazirian and Ahriman/Asmodeus as being some of the "immigrant gods" Ao permitted to enter and occupy his Realms; it is entirely plausible for him (and the Realms he created) to have predated the rest of the planes and their denizens, or to have been isolated from the rest of the forming cosmos until after the ageless Dawn War. Does time itself, past and future, have any meaning before the first god exists to control it? The couatls might recognize Ao as another "high" aspect of the Ouroborous, one which may have evolved different refinements (and impurities) than did Jazirian. I know too little about the sarrukhs to even speculate on their insights regarding Ao, beyond the fact that they must have been aware of Mystryl's power.
The Ouroborous wiki page is an interesting read. It is an ancient symbol of many things: renewal of life, life/death/rebirth, reincarnation, eternity, infinity. The snake-eating-its-own-tail version is similar in concept to the immortal phoenix, the two-snakes version (as used in D&D) also carries meanings of balance, sharing, and conflict similar in concept to the yin-yang. |
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Edited by - Ayrik on 13 Dec 2011 04:10:25 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31727 Posts |
Posted - 13 Dec 2011 : 04:38:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
I'd thought it was already established that the Earthmother of the Moonshae is either an aspect (essentially a different identity) of Chauntea or a very similar deity who works with/as Chauntea within her (Moonshae) domain.
Earthmother was a completely separate deity from that of Chauntea, that is, until TSR cast a "mighty retcon" upon the six 'Moonshae' novels.
You have to take this into consideration, otherwise parts of the plot from the novels don't make as much sense without it -- mostly because Earthmother dies and Chauntea then assumes her position until Earthmother returns and forces Chauntea out from the druids that focused instead on Chauntea worship.
I'll note, also, that Brian James was never actually happy with that retcon, which is why he didn't acknowledge it in his "Moonshae" article [DRAGON #362]. In fact, he hinted pretty strongly that Earthmother may indeed be a fey goddess.
By not acknowledging the retcon, Brian seems to have re-established the singular Earthmother as a divine entity unto herself with regard to the Moonshaes.
I've speculated that perhaps this fey Earthmother is merely "a partial aspect of the Land" [the Moonshaes] with respect to Chauntea's overall placement as THE land overall.
The reference from the Ol' Gray Box being:- "Earthmother 'may or may not be an aspect of Chauntea' [Cyclopedia of the Realms, pg. 17], was expanded upon with Chauntea's entry in Faiths & Avatars, by suggesting that Earthmother was a more primitive aspect, a portion of Chauntea's essence, that was dedicated to directly overseeing the Moonshaes.
But with Brian's work in the aforementioned "Moonshae" article, as it stands now, Earthmother and Chauntea are largely separate entities once again. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36798 Posts |
Posted - 13 Dec 2011 : 05:14:53
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I like the idea of the Earthmother being a semi-independent aspect of Chauntea. Though, to me, it might make more sense if there was an earlier deity -- perhaps the aforementioned fey goddess -- that was there, first. Perhaps this fey deity was on the decline, and Chauntea sent an aspect of herself there to help, and the two merged to become the Earthmother known to the Ffolk today.
This, I think, balances all the ideas out, and also explains why this one small corner of the Realms has a dedicated regional deity, when most of the larger realms does not have the same. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 13 Dec 2011 : 06:33:12
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We all know that the Moonshaes, Earthmother goddess and all, were a Celtic region that was shoehorned into the Realms. It doesn't seem unreasonable to accept the possibility that the Moonshaes overlapped into the Feywild at some point in history, and that many of the things there (including an aspect of Chauntea) diverged along Fey paths during the interim.
What is the origin of the sarrukh? Did they first emerge in the Realms or did they arrive from elsewhere? |
[/Ayrik] |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31727 Posts |
Posted - 13 Dec 2011 : 07:12:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
What is the origin of the sarrukh? Did they first emerge in the Realms or did they arrive from elsewhere?
The chapter for the sarrukh in Serpent Kingdoms pretty much covers this. [Sections in both the PDF and print version of A Grand History of the Realms, as well. For example, noting the sarrukh {as the first Creator Race} being born from the flesh of Ouroboros and such.] |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 13 Dec 2011 : 09:01:09
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| Ah, being born from the flesh of Ouroboros is a bit problematic if we don't know where Ouroboros came from. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 13 Dec 2011 : 21:39:43
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Aspects are race - and sometimes merely culture - specific avatars of a god (and by god, I mean ANY being of greater-then-Exarch status). This is why I think Chauntea is just a human aspect of the Earthmother (rather then the other way around). The Earthmother seems more primal, and is indistinct enough to to be the archtype for any number of race-specific Aspects. Chauntea is simply too anthropomorphic for me to believe she the original, and not just a localized representation.
Bear in mind that the creation myths presented in most sources are from a HUMAN perspective, so this 'primal earth goddess' would be referred to by the name humans know her by. Just because the name 'Chauntea' appears in those myths does not mean that is the name that being went by at the time those events occurred (and it is actually a bit ludicrous to think that those beings actually had such simplistic names at all - language wasn't even necessary at that point).
For example, the same myths are told about both Zeus and Jupiter, but just because the Romans called him Jupiter doesn't mean that was the name he was answering too when those stories took place (or even Zeus for that matter) - those are human contrivances to identify certain beings of pure energy, who have the ability to hear their 'name' being said, and yet always know when it is 'for them' . In other words, it doesn't matter if the right name is being used, or any name for that matter - so long as the mortal has the right divine being in-mind, that's who hears it - the spoken name is for OUR (mortal) benefit, nothing more. Gods identify each other differently - by their portfolios and energy-signatures, and have no need for symbolic sounds to represent them while addressing one-another. For instance, every 'god-like' being in the Q-Continuum (ST) is simply known as 'Q'. this is confusing for humans (and others), but the Q's all know precisely who they are referring to. The words are just a miniscule fraction of all the levels these beings exchange information on.
So when you see gods speaking in a novel, that's for OUR benefit - the reader - so we can understand whats going on, and what's really going on is actually happening on so many different levels and so many different planes of existence, we can only comprehend the barest inkling of the truth behind divine events. Even a fiend would have trouble with it (although probably understand it better then we). I site the events surrounding the death of Mystra, as witnessed by Aliiza the Alu-fiend. She knows what she 'saw', but that is how her sub-divine mind interpreted the events, not what happened (which is precisely what we were told - the events were a 'vision', nothing more, and purely symbolic of the real events, which were inconceivable to mortals).
I only went off on this tangent to prove a point - just because a name or word is used in a canon story/myth, doesn't mean it was used at the time. Cro-Magnon and Neanderthal did not refer to themselves thus - those are the terms we use when speaking about them. Keep that in mind when you are reading stories that took place 35,000+ years ago. 
We also have at least two different canon FR creation myths (I'm referring also to the Draconic one), and at least three others that are D&D canon (Dwarf, Elf, Orc, etc). It doesn't mean any are wrong - they have just undergone what time does to such things, and as I just showed above, the names don't really mean a thing - its all symbolic - and what was 'witnessed' could be different for every being, because perception of events is highly subjective (and why witness testimony is pure crap in court cases).
The reason why 'all things divine' will forever remain a mystery to mortals, is because we don't have 1/100 the senses necessary to 'see' every nuance of what is taking place. Most of what occurs between gods happens well outside our paltry five sense's ability to perceive. And a name is just a sound, nothing more; what is important is the idea that accompanies it. 
Getting back to the topic at hand - the World Serpent 'fractured' into many smaller parts, and it is more likely that one of those parts is Chauntea (the part responsible for mainland Faerűn). Ao, on the other hand, remains whole (AFAWK), and could be the the totality -the lump-sum - of everything IN Realmspace, including its myriad deities. Ergo, the Worldserpent/Mother-Nature figure could just be the physical world (Prime Material) aspect of Ao, if Ao represents the actual sentience of the Sphere itself. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 13 Dec 2011 21:47:03 |
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
USA
1291 Posts |
Posted - 14 Dec 2011 : 08:57:48
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Chauntea was originally the goddess of Life for all of Realmspace. She has fragmented into multiple aspects and the Chauntea fragment has surrendered much of her portfolio to other gods. "Chauntea" is just the human conception of her, and that aspect or fragment of her has a portfolio that is mostly limited to agriculture, Chauntea is a somewhat "civilized" nature goddess. The halfling aspect of her is known as "Yondala." The Earthmother is an aspect of Chauntea that hearkens back to how Chauntea was envisaged by much earlier humans, a wilder, more primitive, and certainly less civilized goddess of nature. In other corners of Toril, Chauntea may have different names, appearances and portfolios.
I have a theory that the beholder patron goddess, the Great Mother, is actually the fragment of Chauntea that serves the Realmspace planet H'Catha. Her image as a giant, archetypal beholder is how she is conceived by the beholders that worship her. Perhaps there are fragments of her on the other planets of Realmspace as well, though her aspects on those worlds may be very different, depending on how the natives there envisage her. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 15 Dec 2011 : 00:41:46
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| My question is whether the Ouroborus is part of the essential polyaspected divine Realms or a deity from outside them. If Ouroborus is not native to the Realms then what and when are its origins, and did the sarrukh also arrive from there? |
[/Ayrik] |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 15 Dec 2011 : 06:23:02
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| Note that on (Abeir-)Toril, the pre-Sundered name of the Pangea-like proto-continent was/is Merrouroboros. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 15 Dec 2011 06:31:50 |
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Marc
Senior Scribe
657 Posts |
Posted - 15 Dec 2011 : 07:13:54
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| My home theory is that most of the World Serpent became Io the Ninefold Dragon, when the collective belief of the Creator Race of that time fragmented so did their gods and planes. This was before the Grand History of the Realms was published with -30 000 DR dates instead of millions of years. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 16 Dec 2011 : 06:29:33
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That doesn't really conflict - I happen to thin science is WAAAAAAAY off on their own estimates about the age of Earth and the universe. Its been proven that evolution can happen within a few generations, and doesn't take millions of years - not by a long shot.
In fact, before the 'Godwar' (which I happen to think is linked to dozens of FR events, including several Tearfalls and The Sundering) was spread-out over thousands of years, and before it, time itself may not have existed (at least not in Realmspace). I simply refer to the pre-Sundered world as 'The Before-Time' - this is why those creator races were practically immortal (including the human one, but something has effected the human lifespan). The War of Light & Darkness shows us a time before anything at all existed, except maybe the Sphere itself. From the moment of the beginning of that tale, until the final confrontation (and Mystra's creation), lord only knows how many years - perhaps millions - had passed. The myth itself is short - the time-span immeasurable.
Plus, on a world with gods, magic, and numerous portals, the 'gene pool' (primal soup, etc) got a much better mixing then on our world, so things needn't have taken as long to evolve. In other words. evolution happens as a direct response to outside stimulus, and Toril gets a LOT of stimulus.
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"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 16 Dec 2011 : 08:08:03
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quote:
Originally posted by Gray Richardson
He's definitely not Ao. Ao is not a god. He does not require worship and does not want it. He does not grant prayers or spells. Overgods are a different thing from gods.
It would be... presumptuous of mortals to say they fully understand the nature and workings of the gods, let alone an overgod. Hardly can one be so sure it was Ao or not. Granted, he doesn't need prayers and followers. But the presence of worshipers---and he letting them persist---could be part of his grand design to make people believe it wasn't he, which could be part of an even grander scheme. It could be that he created a blank canvas and let the people's prayers empower and give form and essence to that canvas, which eventually gave birth to a new god. So Ourborous might have been Ao, or at the very least, an insignificant iota of his being. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Marc
Senior Scribe
657 Posts |
Posted - 16 Dec 2011 : 09:17:39
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To me there is a greater chance than not that Ao wasn't an overgod from the start, but when ''he'' emerged on top he rewrote history and made sure other gods believed that.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
That doesn't really conflict - I happen to thin science is WAAAAAAAY off on their own estimates about the age of Earth and the universe. Its been proven that evolution can happen within a few generations, and doesn't take millions of years - not by a long shot...
I don't know much about that. My friend is an archaeologist and he explained once that the methods for estimating the age of minerals and organic material are reliable, not perfectly, but usually several different methods give similar results. There's always conspiracy theories like human footprints or tools found in rocks a few hundred million years old. Homo sapiens did appear to evolve unusually fast. There could be some truth somewhere between.
But I always thought Toril is a mirror and a fantastic version of Earth, because of the name ''Forgotten Realms'' and all other similarities between them. If the process of evolution in the Realms is so faster and different wouldn't for example humans change lot more in the last few thousand of years (for which there are historic records)?
My Realms also have human lifespan extended in the antediluvian times, like it is in the Sumerian kings list. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 17 Dec 2011 : 01:01:19
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| It's interesting to note that Ao is not perceived as some sort of gestalt overdeity formed by the other gods (and perhaps also their followers). Ao might be constructed from some (conscious or subconscious) impossible ideal shared by all those of divine station, a sort of manifestation of deistic monolatry - conceptually similar to the Ouroborus entity recognized by the couatls. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 17 Dec 2011 : 01:20:12
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A bit unlikely. The deities hardly think the same. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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creyzi4zb12
Learned Scribe
Philippines
129 Posts |
Posted - 22 Dec 2011 : 17:31:14
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| Only thing I've read about Ouroborous is that he was the leader of the gods during the war against the primordials...Wouldn't that make him/her top of the food chain when it comes to god ranks? |
orc orc orc orc orc orc orc orc orc orc orc |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36798 Posts |
Posted - 22 Dec 2011 : 18:12:27
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quote:
Originally posted by creyzi4zb12
Only thing I've read about Ouroborous is that he was the leader of the gods during the war against the primordials...Wouldn't that make him/her top of the food chain when it comes to god ranks?
Not necessarily... He could have just been acting in a General/Warmaster capacity. It's not uncommon, in real life or in fantasy, for a group or nation-state to have a commander of the armed forces who is not the supreme ruler. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31727 Posts |
Posted - 22 Dec 2011 : 23:49:21
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quote:
Originally posted by creyzi4zb12
Only thing I've read about Ouroborous is that he was the leader of the gods during the war against the primordials...Wouldn't that make him/her top of the food chain when it comes to god ranks?
For whatever reason -- whether it be his mentality, his power, or his mastery of certain tactics -- Ourborous appeared to be the best deity for the job of leading the war effort. That doesn't necessarily mean he was "top dog" so to speak. Just that he may have excelled in the duties required of the position. |
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Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 23 Dec 2011 : 08:03:56
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by creyzi4zb12
Only thing I've read about Ouroborous is that he was the leader of the gods during the war against the primordials...Wouldn't that make him/her top of the food chain when it comes to god ranks?
For whatever reason -- whether it be his mentality, his power, or his mastery of certain tactics -- Ourborous appeared to be the best deity for the job of leading the war effort. That doesn't necessarily mean he was "top dog" so to speak. Just that he may have excelled in the duties required of the position.
Agreed. Same happened to the Council of Zulkirs. Dmitra was arguably the least powerful of them, but they (including Nevron, even), allowed her to be an acting leader/master strategist, for she'd known Szass Tam better, had spies working for her, and was a good mediator. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Brian R. James
Forgotten Realms Game Designer
USA
1098 Posts |
Posted - 23 Dec 2011 : 18:00:09
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In 4E parlance, Ouroborous is a primal spirit not a god*. In the earliest days of Realmspace the gods and primordials warred across the cosmos threatening creation itself. In the final moments of the Shadow Epoch, the primal spirits manifested and declared an end to the conflict. The World Serpent banished the gods to the Astral Sea and the primoridals to the Elemental Chaos, permitting the mortals of Abeir-Toril to carve out their first civilizations.
*this, despite my labeling the world serpent as such in the FRCG. I corrected this mistake in the Sarifal article in Dragon 376. |
Brian R. James - Freelance Game Designer
Follow me on Twitter @brianrjames |
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creyzi4zb12
Learned Scribe
Philippines
129 Posts |
Posted - 23 Dec 2011 : 19:46:29
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by creyzi4zb12
Only thing I've read about Ouroborous is that he was the leader of the gods during the war against the primordials...Wouldn't that make him/her top of the food chain when it comes to god ranks?
For whatever reason -- whether it be his mentality, his power, or his mastery of certain tactics -- Ourborous appeared to be the best deity for the job of leading the war effort. That doesn't necessarily mean he was "top dog" so to speak. Just that he may have excelled in the duties required of the position.
The problem about this statement is that since FRCG lacks some details in the god-primordial war. There was little to no statement about gods being more powerful than Ouroborous, or Ouroborous serving a different god/leader besides him.
There was on the other hand, a statement about Ouroborous being higher than the gods (acting as a leader/a position of greater-power or higher ranking).
quote:
Originally posted by Brian R. James
In 4E parlance, Ouroborous is a primal spirit not a god*. In the earliest days of Realmspace the gods and primordials warred across the cosmos threatening creation itself. In the final moments of the Shadow Epoch, the primal spirits manifested and declared an end to the conflict. The World Serpent banished the gods to the Astral Sea and the primoridals to the Elemental Chaos, permitting the mortals of Abeir-Toril to carve out their first civilizations.
*this, despite my labeling the world serpent as such in the FRCG. I corrected this mistake in the Sarifal article in Dragon 376.
Nice information....since Ourobouros has powers to even banish gods and primordials...I can't really think of any god more powerful than him/her.
Banishing gods and primordials?
Isn't that Ao-like powers? (from ToT)...as far as I know, no god can banish another god.
- But after reading the earlier posts I've come to a thought that maybe (just maybe) Ouroborous is not Ao....but something else different.
I've read in the Avatar trilogy a statement of the gods about long ago there were primordials so powerful that even Ao trembled before them...Could Ouroboros be one of this primordials?
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orc orc orc orc orc orc orc orc orc orc orc |
Edited by - creyzi4zb12 on 23 Dec 2011 20:12:55 |
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 27 Dec 2011 : 15:01:57
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| I remember vaguely in 4e mythology the gods are from the Astral and primordials from the Elemental Chaos. Their war ''trespassed'' on the Prime, even mortal elven high magic could banish gods, so why not Ourobouros. If the World Serpent appeared in the Astral that would be another story. |
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creyzi4zb12
Learned Scribe
Philippines
129 Posts |
Posted - 29 Dec 2011 : 15:39:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Quale
I remember vaguely in 4e mythology the gods are from the Astral and primordials from the Elemental Chaos. Their war ''trespassed'' on the Prime, even mortal elven high magic could banish gods, so why not Ourobouros. If the World Serpent appeared in the Astral that would be another story.
It could be possible...but to banish an entire pantheon (or two if you consider the primordials)? Hardly seems like any ordinary elven high magic.
BTW: Here's a note I found in some wiki i searched about Ouroboros
According to some, the Ouroboros was the first living being in the universe, an immortal, perfectly constructed being. This is not entirely accurate.
The Ouroboros is a Demiurge, a part of the universe itself. The Phoenix's legends say that the Ouroboros represents the Milky Way, a band that stretches in a circle around the entire world. But in truth, it isn't just the physical world he surrounds, it's the temporal world as well. Ouroboros exists in at least 5 dimensions, if not more. Ouroboros is considered to BE time itself. Killing him is impossible without destroying all of time itself (which is also impossible). Imprisoning him would freeze all time in the universe he resides in.
For those that encounter Ouroboros, he appears as a massive snake with heads at both ends, and two claws for each head. Perfectly white in color, Oroboros radiates deadly rays, which contribute to the Dragon's Overwhelming Presence.
During the time known as the Blue Age, a race of sea creatures was living on Toril in the planet’s single, vast ocean. The Blue Age came to an end when a primordial known as Dendar the Night Serpent swallowed the sun, giving way to the Shadow Epoch. Sarrukh myths and legends tell of great battles during this time between the primordials and the Elder Gods led by Ouroboros the World Serpent. The war turned in the gods’ favor when the primordial Ubtao the Deceiver assisted the elder gods in slaying, imprisoning, or driving away the remaining primordials.
http://realmofadventure.wikia.com/wiki/Ouroboros
So Ouroboros is not actually Ao, but someone else different |
orc orc orc orc orc orc orc orc orc orc orc |
Edited by - creyzi4zb12 on 29 Dec 2011 15:48:36 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 30 Dec 2011 : 02:41:13
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quote:
creyzi4zb12
The Ouroboros is a Demiurge, a part of the universe itself. ... it isn't just the physical world he surrounds, it's the temporal world as well. Ouroboros exists in at least 5 dimensions, if not more. Ouroboros is considered to BE time itself. Killing him is impossible without destroying all of time itself (which is also impossible). Imprisoning him would freeze all time in the universe he resides in.
Source and supporting argument for this assumed statement? Mixing cosmology, physics, and math is a tricky art. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36798 Posts |
Posted - 30 Dec 2011 : 04:55:15
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quote:
Originally posted by creyzi4zb12
It could be possible...but to banish an entire pantheon (or two if you consider the primordials)? Hardly seems like any ordinary elven high magic.
The Imaskari did something similar... |
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Is Ourborous Ao?
