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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
 Posted - 30 Dec 2011 : 06:12:11
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They also changed the 'rules' in regards to dragons, with the Dracorage Mythal.
Interesting line of thought - Elven high Magic (which I reasoned is based on fey magic) is able to modify the rules of a sphere/Domain/area, and Imaskari magic - which was at least partly based on Fey magic (see the novel Darkvision) - was also able to modify the rules of a crystal sphere, to the point of denying access to entire pantheons.
So yeah, Elven High Magic should be able to create a mythal potent enough to banish gods and primordials. It probably has to do with adjusting the probabilities (temporal magic) so that things 'turn out' the way they want - that seems to be the way the fey would operate.
@Sage (and other comic fans) - Just a thought: Wanda (Scarlet Witch) is a good example of how I see Fey magic working. They have an idea of what they want in mind, and then the universe itself twists around there desires to make it so (even if that means re-writing a bit of the timeline).
Ergo, fey wouldn't be able to create their own Crystal Sphere, but they could twist the rules of one (or a demi-plane) to accommodate themselves. This means that together (circle magic), they could perform a ritual on-par (power-wise) with a primordial, or Overgod. Or conversely, effect the past, so that the original Over-power writing the rules would set them the way they wanted.
So after the ToT, Ao realized he had modified the rules for the sphere from what they must have originally been, and simply corrected it (it could have just been a matter of him finally seeing the Weave from a mortal's point-of-view, when he 'came to earth'). He may not have noticed this change before, if Mythal (Fey) magic had altered the past, because he himself is constrained by time (in other words, after changes are made to a timeline, those within the new timeline would not be aware anything has changed).
So its not so much that Elven High (Fey) Magic is more powerful then 'the gods', but rather, after changes are made, they wouldn't even know it (so, in effect, they would be more powerful, but only through their subterfuge and ability to 'remain hidden').
Hmph... probability magic would actually explain quite a lot in regards to fey - the way they change size and appearance, abilities (like having wings), grow smaller (dwindle) as they age or use power, etc - all those varied powers and descriptions of them could be attributed to them 'mucking' with their own timelines. For instance, a fey needs to be a marine creature (like the way elves turn into sea-Elves), it simply adjusts its own personal past (and that of its ancestors) to acquire gills and whatever else it needs. This probably does some sort of damage to their being, which could also account for the dwindling effect. After awhile, if they 'muck about' too much, their existence becomes more ephemeral - they become more spirit then mortal, and need something physical to anchor them to the mortal world (like a dryads tree).
I think I like this new train of thought - I will need to ponder this further. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 01 Jan 2012 00:29:34 |
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creyzi4zb12
Learned Scribe
Philippines
129 Posts |
Posted - 30 Dec 2011 : 06:56:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
quote:
creyzi4zb12
The Ouroboros is a Demiurge, a part of the universe itself. ... it isn't just the physical world he surrounds, it's the temporal world as well. Ouroboros exists in at least 5 dimensions, if not more. Ouroboros is considered to BE time itself. Killing him is impossible without destroying all of time itself (which is also impossible). Imprisoning him would freeze all time in the universe he resides in.
Source and supporting argument for this assumed statement? Mixing cosmology, physics, and math is a tricky art.
http://realmofadventure.wikia.com/wiki/Ouroboros
BTW: Here's another note in that wiki about The World Serpent
The idea of the world serpent is one representation of creation. The archetype is an infinitely large serpent with its tail in its mouth. The idea is that it never ends- if you begin at one part and travel around you will eventually return to where you started. This circular or cyclical view of the multiverse is common to many different philosophies and faiths.
It is said that many of the deities reflect this great archetype. Some sages believe there might have once been a great over deity known as the World Serpent. During this ancient time there was only one plane and one reality. Eventually the World Serpent's children took to fighting amongst themselves. In order to give them all a domain to call their own and to stop them from destroying all creation it is said that the World Serpent chose to tear himself apart. This aspect of of destruction and creation was said to create the different planes as well as fracturing all of creation into different realities. Some echoes of that original deity, called aspects, live on today in a number of deities.
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So in here it defines the World Serpent as an "overdeity (overgod)", there could be a possibility that either Ouroboros is Ao, or Ouroboros is a spirit with powers that could match Ao.
- Ao could banish gods, but so could Ouroboros
- Ao has a master while Ouroboros doesn't have one (Ao has restrictions)
- Ao is the head of the gods, but so was Ouroboros (he was defined as a leader of the Elder gods)
- Ouroboros' domain comprises an entire universe while Ao only speaks of Abeir-Toril
Considering the achievements of the two...it seems that Ouroboros can do better than Ao.
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Edited by - creyzi4zb12 on 30 Dec 2011 07:11:02 |
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jan 2012 : 09:56:48
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That wiki is someone's homebrew, there's no mention of a Demiurge in FR. Tough I agree. In D&D mythology there seem to be cycles of creation and destruction of the universe, even it seems there are creatures that survived the transition, like the le shay, draedens, sharns, arcane, spellweavers or shadevari. The creation begins with a dream and ends when the last nightmare is devoured by Dendar.
For me Ouroboros is an ''aspect'' of the Demiurge, it was similar to Ao when the sauroid creator race was dominant, in that time their collective belief shaped the planes, gods and spirits. Phoenix was later, when the sauroids became mostly extinct or evolved into the Aeree and dragons (they lost the creator ''powers''). I always ignored Ao, but its domain is not just Toril or just the solar system, in the Avatar novels it says it's an entire cosmos. Whatever that means, relation of the material plane(s) and outer planes is confusing. |
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creyzi4zb12
Learned Scribe
Philippines
129 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jan 2012 : 16:54:01
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Yeah you could be right on that statement...I browsed the entire site and was able to look at some weird stuff in it.
Here's a similar definition of Ouroboros on another site (hopefully non-homebrew)
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http://d20npcs.wikia.com/wiki/Ouroboros,_Great-Great-Great_Wyrm_Cometary_Dragon
Cometary Dragons are described in the Immortal's Handbook as two headed snakes that twist time to their pleasure, traveling between stars over the course of eons, enveloping themselves in mountains of ice made from frozen time itself. It also describes the Ouroboros as a Great-Great-Great Wyrm Cometary Dragon, so that's what we've got here.
This uses NONE of the rules from Deities & Demigods. All divine rules come from the Immortal's Handbook instead. Demiurge is four categories higher than Greater Deity, and is the lowest rank of the Eternals, a classification two higher than merely Immortal. (Mortal, Immortal (Divine), Cosmic (Sidereal/Overgod), Eternal (Lords))
According to Plato, the Ouroboros was the first living being in the universe, an immortal, perfectly constructed being. This is not entirely accurate.
The Ouroboros is a Demiurge, a part of the universe itself. The Phoenix's legends say that the Ouroboros represents the Milky Way, a band that stretches in a circle around the entire world. But in truth, it isn't just the physical world he surrounds, it's the temporal world as well. Ouroboros exists in at least 5 dimensions, if not more. Ouroboros is considered to BE time itself. Killing him is impossible without destroying all of time itself (which is also impossible). Imprisoning him would freeze all time in the universe he resides in.
For those that encounter Ouroboros, he appears as a massive snake with heads at both ends, and two claws for each head. Perfectly white in color, Oroboros radiates deadly X-Rays, which contribute to the Dragon's Overwhelming Presence.
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This page specifically states that Ouroboros IS HIGHER than Ao, who is an Overgod.
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Edited by - creyzi4zb12 on 02 Jan 2012 17:35:24 |
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jan 2012 : 12:51:13
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The Immortal Handbooks are 3rd party products, some parts are similar to the D&D cosmology, but there are also differences. E.g. Ptah is also a demiurge there while FR version of Ptah needed Ao's permission to enter Realmspace. The same is with Abraxas, who's usually just a demon lord.
The World Serpent's fragmentation is similar process tough, cause in the Immortal Handbooks the demiurges are described as incomplete time lords. These beings had their manifestations, either willingly or unwillingly sundered. This event reduced the demiurge to its component dimensions, typically: entropy, space, time, matter, spirit, thought etc. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jan 2012 : 20:01:50
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Hmmm... I just realized that the World Serpent-as-Ouroborous is a lot like my cosmology model, in that I used a Torus to represent to Prime Material Plane (basically, just like a snake with its tail in it's mouth).
I actually did that to represent Jazirian and Ahriman (From the Guide to Hell), and placed The Outlands (Concordant Opposition) in the middle (which is very different from most D&D cosmological models).
Does that mean that Ahriman and Zaririan are two sides to the same Primordial Being? Or, conversely, Ouroborous is more like a conjoined deity (I'm not even sure what the difference would be, there).
I used to equate Tiamet and Bahamut (Notice that most of the older powers in the universe are reptilian?) with Ahriman and Jazirian, but now I think they may just be Aspects of the two ancient powers (just as I think Asmodeus and Quetzalcoatl are).
Which would explain why Tiamet lived in the Hells with Asmodeus - both are aspects of the same Primal power.
BTW, in my cosmology/mythology, "Drækons" is an ancient celestial term for 'being of primal power' (or 'creature of incalculable might'), which is where we get 'Dragon' from (which is universal used on every world, and means the same in every language). 'Jithan' (Primordial Titan/Giant) means 'pinnacle of substance', which was used to describe the 'First Men' (the giants of the world), but has become interpreted to simply mean 'any very large physical being'.
So THE ONE begat the Drækons, the concepts of the universe, and they begat the Jithan, who were to build the physical universe and dwell within it. Somewhere along the way (celestial) Dragons were created, who were supposed to assist the Jithan, but the Jithan treated them as servants, and the first of the heavenly rebellions occurred. Dragons turned on the primordial Giants, and they were in-turn banished, which created the first schism between (Prime)Ordials and the deities (the hero-gods of the Giants themselves). Everything that happened after was a direct result of this ancient enmity between the first dragons and first giants, which happened on the First World (Eden?), which was destroyed during the first Godwar. All of (shattered) creation became a reflection of that world and those events.
Once again, in my own mythos. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 04 Jan 2012 22:46:30 |
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creyzi4zb12
Learned Scribe
Philippines
129 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jan 2012 : 20:33:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Quale
The Immortal Handbooks are 3rd party products, some parts are similar to the D&D cosmology, but there are also differences. E.g. Ptah is also a demiurge there while FR version of Ptah needed Ao's permission to enter Realmspace. The same is with Abraxas, who's usually just a demon lord.
The World Serpent's fragmentation is similar process tough, cause in the Immortal Handbooks the demiurges are described as incomplete time lords. These beings had their manifestations, either willingly or unwillingly sundered. This event reduced the demiurge to its component dimensions, typically: entropy, space, time, matter, spirit, thought etc.
It seems that d20srd isn't a good reliable info. for FR lore. I was thinking that Ouroboros encompasses general D&D (and not just FR) lore (History on the site also mentions Toril). He seems to appear every now and then during some events, like...
- leading the gods...this tiny information during the shadow epoch brings us plenty of questions as to the scope of The World Serpent's power. To lead the gods...to banish two pantheons in a row..the only creature we know of who has done that is Ao.
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by creyzi4zb12
It could be possible...but to banish an entire pantheon (or two if you consider the primordials)? Hardly seems like any ordinary elven high magic.
The Imaskari did something similar...
I thought it was merely shielding/hiding themselves from gods (which the Untheric Pantheon broke through) instead of actually banishing the gods themselves. Totally different from banishing an entire pantheon (which would be kinda imba in my opinion)
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Edited by - creyzi4zb12 on 04 Jan 2012 20:58:09 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36798 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jan 2012 : 22:25:38
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quote:
Originally posted by creyzi4zb12
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by creyzi4zb12
It could be possible...but to banish an entire pantheon (or two if you consider the primordials)? Hardly seems like any ordinary elven high magic.
The Imaskari did something similar...
I thought it was merely shielding/hiding themselves from gods (which the Untheric Pantheon broke through) instead of actually banishing the gods themselves. Totally different from banishing an entire pantheon (which would be kinda imba in my opinion)
Seems pretty similar to me. One was saying, "No, you can't come in, no matter how hard you try" and the other was saying, "Yeah, get out of here." Either way, the result is mortals using magic to tell deities where to stick it -- and pulling it off. |
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creyzi4zb12
Learned Scribe
Philippines
129 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jan 2012 : 04:56:57
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Nevertheless, there is still yet any mortal to ever banish an entire pantheon of gods, not merely shield himself from it without suffering the consequences (The Untheric pantheon did bypass the barrier/which soon led to the fall of major Imaskar citiesa).
Saying that it was very similar is like saying what Karsus and Cyric did is similar..so Karsus has stolen a god's divinity, apparently so has Cyric...does this mean that they are equal in terms of power? |
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Edited by - creyzi4zb12 on 05 Jan 2012 04:57:46 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36798 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jan 2012 : 05:34:41
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quote:
Originally posted by creyzi4zb12
Nevertheless, there is still yet any mortal to ever banish an entire pantheon of gods, not merely shield himself from it without suffering the consequences (The Untheric pantheon did bypass the barrier/which soon led to the fall of major Imaskar citiesa).
Saying that it was very similar is like saying what Karsus and Cyric did is similar..so Karsus has stolen a god's divinity, apparently so has Cyric...does this mean that they are equal in terms of power?
How is blocking access to Realmspace dissimilar from blocking access to Realmspace? |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jan 2012 : 05:45:28
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quote:
creyzi4zb12
It seems that d20srd isn't a good reliable info. for FR lore.
The SRD is an excellent source of "game lore", it is after all the basis of all 3E canon, but it doesn't contain any "Realms lore" at all. It doesn't even mention the Realms much, aside from asserting WotC legal territories.
I second Quayle's mention of Eternity Publishing's Immortal's Handbook, it's a fine book, imperfect but better than most OGL stuff. It's categorically not canon and it's not Realms-centric, so I can't see how it answers any canon queries about Ouroborus or Ao. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jan 2012 : 13:37:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Does that mean that Ahriman and Zaririan are two sides to the same Primordial Being? Or, conversely, Ouroborous is more like a conjoined deity (I'm not even sure what the difference would be, there).
I used to equate Tiamet and Bahamut (Notice that most of the older powers in the universe are reptilian?)
The problem is that myths from Guide to Hell and Serpent Kingdoms don't really fit together, Merrshaulk and Ahriman seem to be different beings. IMO the World Serpent first fragmented into primal concepts-achetypes, similar to what the Immortal Handbook suggests, started with Dream (fragmented into Dendar the Night Serpent and maybe the Rainbow Serpent), then later Spirit (after the Outer Planes formed from mortal belief), and finally Law.
Tiamat imo in the beginning was not reptilian, she was like in the Sumerian mythology. But later was killed and tamed in Baator.
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creyzi4zb12
Learned Scribe
Philippines
129 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jan 2012 : 15:57:08
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by creyzi4zb12
How is blocking access to Realmspace dissimilar from blocking access to Realmspace?
3 answers which differentiate the power of Ouroboros to Imaskari:
- 1st: The Imaskari did block the gods access to their realmspace...but what Ouroboros did was "force the gods out", not block them from coming inside (the gods were never in the Imaskar empire in the first place).
To make a long story short, forcing someone out is different from blocking someone from going in.
- 2nd: Consider the size of the Imaskari Empire...and compare it to the size of the Astral Sea and the Elemental Chaos...It could be noted that size does not matter...but comeon, we're talking about an almost unending realmspace here.
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
quote:
creyzi4zb12
The SRD is an excellent source of "game lore", it is after all the basis of all 3E canon, but it doesn't contain any "Realms lore" at all. It doesn't even mention the Realms much, aside from asserting WotC legal territories.
I second Quayle's mention of Eternity Publishing's Immortal's Handbook, it's a fine book, imperfect but better than most OGL stuff. It's categorically not canon and it's not Realms-centric, so I can't see how it answers any canon queries about Ouroborus or Ao.
Which puts us back to square one, as to Ouroboros leading the gods and banishing both gods and primordials alike, a similar feat to what Ao could do. But still, it seems that everything Ao has done, Ouroboros could also do.
I also fail to mention the mystery as to why Ao was not mentioned during the rule of the sarrukh. But it is mentioned in most FR lore that Ao created Abeir-Toril, which predates the sarrukh empire (and possibly Ouroboros).
BTW: It's mentioned in wikia...that Ao created the multiverse from Phlogiston...so this could mean that Ao predates even Ouroboros (or he is Ouroboros)...but it is also mentioned in FR novels that there once were primordial beings that were more powerful than Ao.
Could it be possible that Ouroboros is Ao in sarrukh tongue....not in comparison as to who is older, but in comparison with power which they both are pretty equal
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Edited by - creyzi4zb12 on 05 Jan 2012 16:19:03 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36798 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jan 2012 : 19:22:05
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quote:
Originally posted by creyzi4zb12
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by creyzi4zb12
How is blocking access to Realmspace dissimilar from blocking access to Realmspace?
3 answers which differentiate the power of Ouroboros to Imaskari:
- 1st: The Imaskari did block the gods access to their realmspace...but what Ouroboros did was "force the gods out", not block them from coming inside (the gods were never in the Imaskar empire in the first place).
To make a long story short, forcing someone out is different from blocking someone from going in.
- 2nd: Consider the size of the Imaskari Empire...and compare it to the size of the Astral Sea and the Elemental Chaos...It could be noted that size does not matter...but comeon, we're talking about an almost unending realmspace here.
I still don't see the difference... If deities don't have access to a sphere, it doesn't matter if they were there previously or not. Imaskar and Orbie both put a barrier in place that blocked the access. Heck, the Netherese built an artifact that can do something very similar to a single deity, for a few days. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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creyzi4zb12
Learned Scribe
Philippines
129 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jan 2012 : 06:05:02
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Okay, let's put the answer in question form: The Imaskari has shielded their realmspace from gods, making the gods of the totally nonexistent = TRUE
If the gods were inside the realmspace of the Imaskari (in the first place), could the Imaskari banish them out of that realmspace?
Answer: No, the Imaskari cannot, why? Because it's already happened in a more severe way. The Imaskari lost to the avatar of the gods somewhere in -2488DR.
Post answer: They cannot even banish the lesser forms of the gods, how much more if the gods were at their full power? They could have erected a barrier that bans "god avatars" (not gods), but they couldn't, why? Simply because the avatars were "there in the first place". |
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Edited by - creyzi4zb12 on 06 Jan 2012 06:07:12 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36798 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jan 2012 : 11:00:57
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quote:
Originally posted by creyzi4zb12
Okay, let's put the answer in question form: The Imaskari has shielded their realmspace from gods, making the gods of the totally nonexistent = TRUE
If the gods were inside the realmspace of the Imaskari (in the first place), could the Imaskari banish them out of that realmspace?
Answer: No, the Imaskari cannot, why? Because it's already happened in a more severe way. The Imaskari lost to the avatar of the gods somewhere in -2488DR.
Post answer: They cannot even banish the lesser forms of the gods, how much more if the gods were at their full power? They could have erected a barrier that bans "god avatars" (not gods), but they couldn't, why? Simply because the avatars were "there in the first place".
We don't have enough evidence to support that conclusion. Ao himself let in the avatars, and when the rebellion happened, it wasn't just avatars fighting wizards, with nothing else happening.
So we cannot say that the Imaskari are unable to banish gods, or that avatars were all it took to beat them. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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creyzi4zb12
Learned Scribe
Philippines
129 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jan 2012 : 12:42:54
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Well, since the Imaskari did never banish gods (but only did something similar), let's put it this way. The Imaskari are able to banish gods in a different realmspace...maybe even the sarrukh, or the Netheril could do it.
Will they do it without suffering any consequence? I don't think so, there are consequences to such magics: (Imaskari falling, Netheril falling) due to banishing of gods. A consequence in which Ouroboros was immune to. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jan 2012 : 13:36:36
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| I can accept that banishing or replacing divinities and pantheons usually causes apolyptic things to happen. But you're trying to assert that the Ouroborus entity (or Ao) is immune to the effect without providing any canon examples of it actually happening? |
[/Ayrik] |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36798 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jan 2012 : 19:11:44
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quote:
Originally posted by creyzi4zb12
Well, since the Imaskari did never banish gods (but only did something similar), let's put it this way. The Imaskari are able to banish gods in a different realmspace...maybe even the sarrukh, or the Netheril could do it.
Will they do it without suffering any consequence? I don't think so, there are consequences to such magics: (Imaskari falling, Netheril falling) due to banishing of gods. A consequence in which Ouroboros was immune to.
Imaskar and Netheril did not fall due to the actions of banning deities. Imaskar fell when the deities found a way to work with their enslaved people -- something that would have happened regardless of whether or not the barrier was there. And Netheril's fall was driven by the foolishness of a would-be deity, not from an angry existing deity.
So the consequences you speak of are not a factor. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 06 Jan 2012 19:12:42 |
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creyzi4zb12
Learned Scribe
Philippines
129 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jan 2012 : 19:59:10
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| So basically Ouroboros is equal in power in terms to Imaskari and/or Netheril? |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36798 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jan 2012 : 20:45:33
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quote:
Originally posted by creyzi4zb12
So basically Ouroboros is equal in power in terms to Imaskari and/or Netheril?
That is not information that I have, so I can't say yes or no. My whole stance has been that if mortal magic could accomplish the same thing, then it means that a particular feat of divinity isn't necessarily indicative of being an overdeity.
Honestly, I don't have any info on Orbie. I just wasn't willing to assume he was an overdeity without something more definitive. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 06 Jan 2012 20:47:19 |
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creyzi4zb12
Learned Scribe
Philippines
129 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jan 2012 : 08:53:10
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| My assumption on the first place, was that he was Ao, simply because he was regarded as the leader of the gods, and that he could banish gods and primordials alike...a feat worthy for an overdeity. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jan 2012 : 09:04:57
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| Well, we already know that Ao serves powers even greater than himself. A plurality of over-overgods implies that overgods (like Ao) must be somewhat numerous. Ao might have supreme power over Realmspace and the Faerûnian pantheon, while Ouroborus might have supreme power elsewhere. |
[/Ayrik] |
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creyzi4zb12
Learned Scribe
Philippines
129 Posts |
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Nicolai Withander
Master of Realmslore
Denmark
1093 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2013 : 15:07:52
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After being directed to this scroll, I would like to add my opinion on the matter.
I think that whoever AO serves, gave him "control" of the crystal sphere Realm space. I also think, that Ouroborous is more powerful than AO for the simple fact, that I have not read info, canon or not about AO transcending space and time itself and existing in more than one dimension.
I'm pretty sure that AO has close to absolute control within his sphere or over his sphere, but and can banish, block, kill end command and do close to everything with gods and primordials within Realm Space, but outside, I’m not so sure. I think of it like, you have to follow the rules when you are a guest. So to speak.
Inside, somehow the Imaskar made a fence, powerful enough to keep out guests, but I don’t se them as bouncers powerful enough to "bounce" a pantheon, like AO would be able to do with a snap of his fingers, were they inside realms space. Or perhaps they simply closed the door before they could enter.
But as I read it, Ao would not be able to do this inter sphere... meaning outside/ in between spaces or realms. But I think that Ouroborous can. I think or believe or understand it as if Ouroborous has the power to banish/ remove or end primordials and over gods alike anywhere except their own realm space (house) and even there it seems he has influence if he transcends the universe and is a demiurge.
My beliefs or thoughts are ofc based on what others have written and partially this thread. So I can’t say this is true, but this is how I have understood the whole thing so far.
Whether or not AO is the Sarrukh god/ world Serpent I don’t think so. Since I remember something about the Sharrukh coming from elsewhere. meaning to me that they were created not by AO but their own creator. But AO must have had a hand in their coming for I believe he must open the door for his sharrukh guests.
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Is Ourborous Ao?
