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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
 Posted - 14 Dec 2012 : 03:54:48
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I know what canon is, but how "epic" does something have to be to be considered canon? The ToT was canon, for example, but what about events in novels that, while big in that it effects the characters, return things to the "status quo" at the end? In the God Catcher (part of Ed Greenwood Presents: Waterdeep series), the dragon Nestrix inhabits Waterdeep. Is that now canon in regards to the city? If a description of Waterdeep appeared in 5e, would they mention Nestrix?
What, in your opinion, would make something qualify as canon?
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Sweet water and light laughter |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3806 Posts |
Posted - 14 Dec 2012 : 04:00:03
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| AFAIK, anything published by WotC/TSR that has the FR logo on it is canonical realmslore. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 14 Dec 2012 : 04:06:55
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| That makes sense, and legends are canon in that they are canon in lore. But I was just wondering if an event that doesn't necessarily affect the larger scheme of things would still be considered canon. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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MrHedgehog
Senior Scribe
688 Posts |
Posted - 14 Dec 2012 : 04:17:45
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| Any event in a novel or product is Canon no matter how small. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 14 Dec 2012 : 04:29:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
AFAIK, anything published by WotC/TSR that has the FR logo on it is canonical realmslore.
Yes. And everything Ed says, unless contradicted by WotC. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 14 Dec 2012 : 05:20:53
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All right, thanks guys. I figured as much, but I wasn't entirely sure if "small" events counted. Guess they do  |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 14 Dec 2012 : 07:25:51
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Depends on whether you're reading the novels or playing the table top game.
If you're reading the novels, it's canon if it gets mentioned in future products or otherwise isn't contradicted, unless explicitly stated otherwise.
If you're playing the table top game, then it's canon if the DM says it is. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
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coach
Senior Scribe
USA
479 Posts |
Posted - 14 Dec 2012 : 20:44:23
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i'll even canonize something from FR CRPG's if it doesn't stray too far from feeling Realmslike and it's not a RSE
although that's not WotC official stance i believe |
Bloodstone Lands Sage |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 14 Dec 2012 : 21:52:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus
Depends on whether you're reading the novels or playing the table top game.
If you're reading the novels, it's canon if it gets mentioned in future products or otherwise isn't contradicted, unless explicitly stated otherwise.
If you're playing the table top game, then it's canon if the DM says it is.
Actually, all of the novels are official WotC canon, unless stated otherwise. Ditto for the source books, the web content, and the old DC/TSR comics. |
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Euranna
Learned Scribe
USA
219 Posts |
Posted - 14 Dec 2012 : 22:26:38
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| Everything published is canon for THE Realms. If you are playing a table top game, the DM can decide what is canon is HIS/HER Realms. The two may not be the same thing. :) |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 15 Dec 2012 : 00:40:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
[quote]Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus
Depends on whether you're reading the novels or playing the table top game.
If you're reading the novels, it's canon if it gets mentioned in future products or otherwise isn't contradicted, unless explicitly stated otherwise.
If you're playing the table top game, then it's canon if the DM says it is.
Actually, all of the novels are official WotC canon, unless stated otherwise. Ditto for the source books, the web content, and the old DC/TSR comics.
I think CoA might be referring more to the difficulty of ascertaining the canon status of certain novels... like the "Double Diamond" Saga, for example. Which, if I were to judge from the number of scrolls that have been issued over questions about their canonical-status here at Candlekeep in the past, suggests that it isn't always as concrete as, say, the events of the "Songs and Swords" series.
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 16 Dec 2012 : 14:08:40
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There are two (unofficial) layers of canon below canon. Anything with the Forgotten realms Logo on it is considered canon, except for the VG's and the Double Diamond series (AFAIK - there may be others, like the 'make your own ending' books). Those two groups fall into the psuedo-canonical category, which means that they are 'mostly canon', except for where they disagree with canon (there are multiple continuity glitches). From what I understand, writers try to canonize as much of that stuff as possible in other material, but the main source is not strictly canon.
And then there is my favorite category - demi-canon. There is a plethora of FR-specific info available in other TSR products that do not bear the FR logo, the most notorious of which is Realmspace. That stuff is canon for D&D (in regards to the Realms), but not 100% canon to the FR IP itself. It also gets the same treatment as psuedo-canon; writers try to canonize some of it in other material. Other good examples of this are many of the devices in the Book of Artifacts, and the Island of Sahu in the Complete Book of Necromancers.
*Grammatical corrections. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 17 Dec 2012 15:30:24 |
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Thauranil
Master of Realmslore
India
1591 Posts |
Posted - 16 Dec 2012 : 16:53:41
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WOTC should really adopt a clear method to determine what is or is not canon.
Perhaps something like the Star Wars method could be used. |
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Lord Bane
Senior Scribe
Germany
479 Posts |
Posted - 16 Dec 2012 : 17:00:33
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| Star Wars? Why make a mess out of it when we got atleast some sort of canonical line worked out? |
The driving force in the multiverse is evil, for it forces good to act. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 16 Dec 2012 : 17:01:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
There two (unofficial) layers of canon below canon. Anything with the Fogotten realms Logo on it is considered canon, except for the VG's and the Double Diamond series (AFAIK - there may be others, like the 'make your own ending' books). Those two groups fall into the psuedo-canonical category, which means that they are 'mostly canon', except for where they disagree with canon (there are multiple continuity glitches). From what I understand, writers try to canonize as much of that stuff as possible in other material, but the main source is not strictly canon.
And then there is my favorite category - demi-canon. There is a plethora of FR-specific info available in other TSR products that do not bear the FR logo, the most notorious of which is Realmspace. That stuff is canon for D&D (in regards to the Realms), but not 100% canon to the FR IP itself. It also gets the same treatment as psuedo-canon; writers try to canonize some of it in other material. Other good examples of this are many of the devices in the Book of Artifacts, and the Island of Sahu in the Complete Book of Necromancers.
The VG's? If you're referring to te Volo's Guides, those are canon. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 16 Dec 2012 : 17:02:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Thauranil
WOTC should really adopt a clear method to determine what is or is not canon.
Perhaps something like the Star Wars method could be used.
There is a clear method. If they publish it, it's canon. Can't get much clearer than that.
Again, there are only a small handful of things that don't conform to this rule, and none of them are any kind of recent. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 17 Dec 2012 : 02:34:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
There two (unofficial) layers of canon below canon. Anything with the Fogotten realms Logo on it is considered canon, except for the VG's and the Double Diamond series (AFAIK - there may be others, like the 'make your own ending' books). Those two groups fall into the psuedo-canonical category, which means that they are 'mostly canon', except for where they disagree with canon (there are multiple continuity glitches). From what I understand, writers try to canonize as much of that stuff as possible in other material, but the main source is not strictly canon.
And then there is my favorite category - demi-canon. There is a plethora of FR-specific info available in other TSR products that do not bear the FR logo, the most notorious of which is Realmspace. That stuff is canon for D&D (in regards to the Realms), but not 100% canon to the FR IP itself. It also gets the same treatment as psuedo-canon; writers try to canonize some of it in other material. Other good examples of this are many of the devices in the Book of Artifacts, and the Island of Sahu in the Complete Book of Necromancers.
The VG's? If you're referring to te Volo's Guides, those are canon.
I think Markus is referring to video games based in the FORGOTTEN REALMS. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 17 Dec 2012 : 02:35:56
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quote:
Originally posted by Lord Bane
Star Wars? Why make a mess out of it when we got atleast some sort of canonical line worked out?
Well, to be fair, SW has expanded into many more forms of medium than the FORGOTTEN REALMS. Leeland Chee of Lucas Licensing has done a remarkable job in establishing the system of canon that the entire SW universe now operates beneath. |
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Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Thauranil
Master of Realmslore
India
1591 Posts |
Posted - 17 Dec 2012 : 10:42:33
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Bane
Star Wars? Why make a mess out of it when we got atleast some sort of canonical line worked out?
Well, to be fair, SW has expanded into many more forms of medium than the FORGOTTEN REALMS. Leeland Chee of Lucas Licensing has done a remarkable job in establishing the system of canon that the entire SW universe now operates beneath.
Exactly my point.
The whole whatever we publish is canon even if it contradicts older stuff philosophy works fine when your company is small but as WOTC expands into new areas and new media they may need a more clearly defined framework. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 17 Dec 2012 : 14:19:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Thauranil
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Bane
Star Wars? Why make a mess out of it when we got atleast some sort of canonical line worked out?
Well, to be fair, SW has expanded into many more forms of medium than the FORGOTTEN REALMS. Leeland Chee of Lucas Licensing has done a remarkable job in establishing the system of canon that the entire SW universe now operates beneath.
Exactly my point.
The whole whatever we publish is canon even if it contradicts older stuff philosophy works fine when your company is small but as WOTC expands into new areas and new media they may need a more clearly defined framework.
Not really. What they need is what they used to have -- a "traffic cop" who makes sure continuity issues are kept to a minimum. The elimination of that position is part of why I maintain that the importance of continuity was disregarded for a time. However, it appears that the folks working on the 5E Realms are going to pay far greater attention to continuity, so we will hopefully not have further issues. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 17 Dec 2012 : 15:35:48
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We will see how important Star Wars continuity is moving forward. Have you ever followed a Disney show or movies? Kiss SW's much-vaunted continuity goodbye.
If Disney can make changes to mythology willy-nilly (like presenting Hera as Hercules' mother, which is just SO wrong), I really doubt they'll show any more respect to a 35 year old franchise.
Rodenberry must be rolling over in his grave for what his wife allowed to happen to ST (despite my enjoying the new movie, he certainly never wanted a 'new continuity'). He was as much a stickler for precise and logical 'canon' as Lucas is/was.
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
The VG's? If you're referring to te Volo's Guides, those are canon.
I think Markus is referring to video games based in the FORGOTTEN REALMS.
Correct - I shouldn't have abbreviated that (forgot about the Volo's guides - of course those are canon).  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 17 Dec 2012 15:40:20 |
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Thauranil
Master of Realmslore
India
1591 Posts |
Posted - 17 Dec 2012 : 15:45:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
We will see how important Star Wars continuity is moving forward. Have you ever followed a Disney show or movies? Kiss SW's much-vaunted continuity goodbye.
If Disney can make changes to mythology willy-nilly (like presenting Hera as Hercules' mother, which is just SO wrong), I really doubt they'll show any more respect to a 35 year old franchise.
Rodenberry must be rolling over in his grave for what his wife allowed to happen to ST (despite my enjoying the new movie, he certainly never wanted a 'new continuity'). He was as much a stickler for precise and logical 'canon' as Lucas is/was.
You have just described the darkest nightmares of all Star Wars fans.
However as Lucas is still consulting with Disney on the movies hopefully there wont be too much mangling but I think everybody is kind of nervous about the treatment Disney will give to a long running and beloved franchise. |
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Lord Bane
Senior Scribe
Germany
479 Posts |
Posted - 17 Dec 2012 : 15:56:21
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| Hard for Rodenberry to roll in a grave, his ashes were sent into space. |
The driving force in the multiverse is evil, for it forces good to act. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 17 Dec 2012 : 17:40:51
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quote:
Originally posted by Thauranil
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
We will see how important Star Wars continuity is moving forward. Have you ever followed a Disney show or movies? Kiss SW's much-vaunted continuity goodbye.
If Disney can make changes to mythology willy-nilly (like presenting Hera as Hercules' mother, which is just SO wrong), I really doubt they'll show any more respect to a 35 year old franchise.
Rodenberry must be rolling over in his grave for what his wife allowed to happen to ST (despite my enjoying the new movie, he certainly never wanted a 'new continuity'). He was as much a stickler for precise and logical 'canon' as Lucas is/was.
You have just described the darkest nightmares of all Star Wars fans.
However as Lucas is still consulting with Disney on the movies hopefully there wont be too much mangling but I think everybody is kind of nervous about the treatment Disney will give to a long running and beloved franchise.
Many Star Wars fans are worried about the mangling done by Lucas, not by Disney! |
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Thauranil
Master of Realmslore
India
1591 Posts |
Posted - 17 Dec 2012 : 17:59:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Thauranil
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
We will see how important Star Wars continuity is moving forward. Have you ever followed a Disney show or movies? Kiss SW's much-vaunted continuity goodbye.
If Disney can make changes to mythology willy-nilly (like presenting Hera as Hercules' mother, which is just SO wrong), I really doubt they'll show any more respect to a 35 year old franchise.
Rodenberry must be rolling over in his grave for what his wife allowed to happen to ST (despite my enjoying the new movie, he certainly never wanted a 'new continuity'). He was as much a stickler for precise and logical 'canon' as Lucas is/was.
You have just described the darkest nightmares of all Star Wars fans.
However as Lucas is still consulting with Disney on the movies hopefully there wont be too much mangling but I think everybody is kind of nervous about the treatment Disney will give to a long running and beloved franchise.
Many Star Wars fans are worried about the mangling done by Lucas, not by Disney!
Yes but that was canonically accurate mangling at least. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 18 Dec 2012 : 01:27:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
We will see how important Star Wars continuity is moving forward. Have you ever followed a Disney show or movies? Kiss SW's much-vaunted continuity goodbye.
If Disney can make changes to mythology willy-nilly (like presenting Hera as Hercules' mother, which is just SO wrong), I really doubt they'll show any more respect to a 35 year old franchise.
Let's remember, though, that traditionally, the SW filmverse and the material in the EU have both often been fairly separate. In the context you're suggesting above... the SW filmverse is pretty simplistic when it comes to the characters -- both heroes and villains, their relationships, and the adventures they find themselves in.
I'd imagine Disney will continue this trend, and simply build on the filmverse platform that Lucas created. |
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"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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MrHedgehog
Senior Scribe
688 Posts |
Posted - 18 Dec 2012 : 03:07:50
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Disney simplifying plots is not the same as Star Wars.
Hera was made Hercules mother because Zeus raping people and being a giant slut is not family friendly...
Do you really think people will let their child watch Ariel turning into foam at the end of the Little Mermaid, or the witch getting burned to death in metal shoes in Snow White? |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 18 Dec 2012 : 04:08:14
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| Heh, I was about to mention something along those lines myself. Disney couldn't show Zues commiting adultery against Hera and having a son from it in an animated movie, now, COULD they? Or Ariel dying of a broken heart when her fickle prince marries someone else? Or, heaven forbid- mentioning that Pocahontas died of TB? Those wre kiddie movies, after all. I mean, would we really want their take on Hamlet to end with Simba dying in a duel with Scar, and Nala committing suicide? I think not. And let's not forget what happened to Timone and Pumba- er, excuse me, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern.... |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 18 Dec 2012 : 05:22:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
Heh, I was about to mention something along those lines myself. Disney couldn't show Zues commiting adultery against Hera and having a son from it in an animated movie, now, COULD they? Or Ariel dying of a broken heart when her fickle prince marries someone else? Or, heaven forbid- mentioning that Pocahontas died of TB? Those wre kiddie movies, after all. I mean, would we really want their take on Hamlet to end with Simba dying in a duel with Scar, and Nala committing suicide? I think not. And let's not forget what happened to Timone and Pumba- er, excuse me, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern....
No, but Disney did show something in The Lion King that most people don't notice... There were two male lions in the pack, before the cubs came along. And then there was Simba, son of Mufasa... And Nala, who's sire is never mentioned. But with Scar and Mufasa being the only males, Nala is either Simba's half-sister, or his cousin. Either way, we have a Disney movie with incest!
On a more serious note, as it's been pointed out, Disney may have given us Pocahontas, but they also gave us The Avengers. Based on that, I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt. |
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Thrasymachus
Learned Scribe
195 Posts |
Posted - 18 Dec 2012 : 06:36:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Thauranil
WOTC should really adopt a clear method to determine what is or is not canon.
Perhaps something like the Star Wars method could be used.
Former Forgotten Realms brand manager Jim Butler: "Everything that bears the Forgotten Realms logo is considered canon".
Cheers |
Former Forgotten Realms brand manager Jim Butler: "Everything that bears the Forgotten Realms logo is considered canon". |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 18 Dec 2012 : 16:00:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
Heh, I was about to mention something along those lines myself. Disney couldn't show Zues commiting adultery against Hera and having a son from it in an animated movie, now, COULD they? Or Ariel dying of a broken heart when her fickle prince marries someone else? Or, heaven forbid- mentioning that Pocahontas died of TB? Those wre kiddie movies, after all. I mean, would we really want their take on Hamlet to end with Simba dying in a duel with Scar, and Nala committing suicide? I think not. And let's not forget what happened to Timone and Pumba- er, excuse me, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern....
No, but Disney did show something in The Lion King that most people don't notice... There were two male lions in the pack, before the cubs came along. And then there was Simba, son of Mufasa... And Nala, who's sire is never mentioned. But with Scar and Mufasa being the only males, Nala is either Simba's half-sister, or his cousin. Either way, we have a Disney movie with incest!
Which is precisely why they will never show Luke having the hots for his sister. 
I would like them to eventually explain why Darth Vader did not recognize a droid he himself built, or that the same droid did not recognize its creator, or that he couldn't tell Leia was his daughter, even though he could sense Luke through the depths of space, or that Chewbacca didn't know anything in the later (actually first) three movies about what was going on, etc, etc. Ahhhh, how I miss the pure logic of Star Trek... 
Back on-topic: The Netherese are all (mostly) dead. That was canon. The Imaskari are all (mostly) dead... that too was canon. I could go on and on - canon in D&D is like canon in comics - it exists so long as the current team is still in-charge. The whole concept of canon falls part when you consider that they can hire some 21 year old fresh out of college tomorrow, and he can making sweeping changes willy-nilly to the setting and blame it on something like the Spellplague.
The simple truth is there really isn't any canon, because the 'facts' of the setting are an ever-changing, amorphous blob. If events in canon novel series can be explained-away as in-story misconceptions (in order to smooth-over continuity errors), then nothing at all is set in stone. 4e proved that they can over-write whatever the hell they want, at any time, canon-be-damned.
Take this site for instance - its main focus used to be (when I first started coming here) all about the canon of the setting. The grognardise was so thick in here you could cut it with a knife (and I recall butting heads with some folks back then). Now this site has gone over to mostly (as in, more then 50%) 'game theory' - we discuss possibilities a lot more then the actual bits of canon lore (although we still try to follow that lore, we just bend and twist it any which way now).
What this tells me that the staunch respect folks once had for the canon has (some-what) broken-down, and alternate possibilities for everything are perfectly acceptable. To me, this is a good thing - people were never supposed to feel hampered by the canon - its there only when you need it. I think that might be the one good thing the 4e designers may have achieved - they've set FR free in a way it never was before. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 18 Dec 2012 16:02:35 |
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what makes it canon?
