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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
 Posted - 18 Dec 2012 : 16:35:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I would like them to eventually explain why Darth Vader did not recognize a droid he himself built, or that the same droid did not recognize its creator, or that he couldn't tell Leia was his daughter, even though he could sense Luke through the depths of space, or that Chewbacca didn't know anything in the later (actually first) three movies about what was going on, etc, etc. Ahhhh, how I miss the pure logic of Star Trek... 
The pure logic of Star Trek? Like routinely sending your starship's entire command staff down to a planet and into potentially hostile situations? Like having the command staff of a starship remain unchanged for 20+ years, even after half of them are promoted to ranks where they should have their own commands?
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Back on-topic: The Netherese are all (mostly) dead. That was canon. The Imaskari are all (mostly) dead... that too was canon. I could go on and on - canon in D&D is like canon in comics - it exists so long as the current team is still in-charge. The whole concept of canon falls part when you consider that they can hire some 21 year old fresh out of college tomorrow, and he can making sweeping changes willy-nilly to the setting and blame it on something like the Spellplague.
The simple truth is there really isn't any canon, because the 'facts' of the setting are an ever-changing, amorphous blob. If events in canon novel series can be explained-away as in-story misconceptions (in order to smooth-over continuity errors), then nothing at all is set in stone. 4e proved that they can over-write whatever the hell they want, at any time, canon-be-damned.
Take this site for instance - its main focus used to be (when I first started coming here) all about the canon of the setting. The grognardise was so thick in here you could cut it with a knife (and I recall butting heads with some folks back then). Now this site has gone over to mostly (as in, more then 50%) 'game theory' - we discuss possibilities a lot more then the actual bits of canon lore (although we still try to follow that lore, we just bend and twist it any which way now).
What this tells me that the staunch respect folks once had for the canon has (some-what) broken-down, and alternate possibilities for everything are perfectly acceptable. To me, this is a good thing - people were never supposed to feel hampered by the canon - its there only when you need it. I think that might be the one good thing the 4e designers may have achieved - they've set FR free in a way it never was before.
I would disagree with much of this, to an extent. The fact that canon can change does not mean that canon doesn't exist or that it can't be set in stone. Before Shade returned, for example, most of the Netherese were dead. Their return doesn't change the fact that most Netherese were dead; it simply added more Netherese into the mix. The vast majority of the original inhabitants of Netheril are still dead.
I also disagree that the lessened discussions on canon indicate less regard for canon. Many of us haven't budged one iota on our regard for canon. We lost several people due to changes to the Realms and the ruleset, and we've picked up a lot of newer scribes, many of whom aren't grounded in decades of Realmslore and thus not familiar with how much focus used to be given to canon. The demographics have shifted -- the positions of individual scribes have not.
I'm also going to disagree that bending and twisting canon indicates less regard for it. A willingness to play in the grey areas defined by canon doesn't indicate we don't respect that canon -- some of the best canon Realmslore has that grey area built in. Someone wanting to have the "red" dragon Garnet return, for example, can do so without violating canon -- no one knows what happened to Garnet, so there is nothing in canon that says Garnet can't return. Nothing in canon says there wasn't a Netherese enclave parked over one of the undescribed continents when Karsus became the God of Fools, so I am free to spin my own lore describing this continent and its Netherese descendants. None of that violates or otherwise disregards canon. |
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 18 Dec 2012 16:51:51 |
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Thauranil
Master of Realmslore
India
1591 Posts |
Posted - 18 Dec 2012 : 16:53:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I would like them to eventually explain why Darth Vader did not recognize a droid he himself built, or that the same droid did not recognize its creator, or that he couldn't tell Leia was his daughter, even though he could sense Luke through the depths of space, or that Chewbacca didn't know anything in the later (actually first) three movies about what was going on, etc, etc. Ahhhh, how I miss the pure logic of Star Trek...
The pure logic of Star Trek? Like routinely sending your starship's entire command staff down to a planet and into potentially hostile situations? Like having the command staff of a starship remain unchanged for 20+ years, even after half of them are promoted to ranks where they should have their own commands?
Well said Wooly .
BTW C3PO had his memory wiped so that's why he didn't he didn't recognize Vader. R2D2 didn't want to tell Luke what a monster his father had become and Vader could sense Luke through the depths of space only after he became aware of the existence of his son and Luke awakened to his power as a jedi. Plus they shared the same surname so that was also a useful clue. Which was certainly not the case with Leia.
I love Chewbacca but he is not the sharpest tool in the box.
So there! |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 18 Dec 2012 : 18:13:05
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The logic is there - the command staff just wanted 'first dibs' on all the hot green chicks. 
The future scientists also discovered that not only does the color red enrage people, but its also has the bizarre ability to draw weapon-fire. The best way to protect your commanders, therefor, was to beam them down with some folks in red shirts.
makes perfect sense to me. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 19 Dec 2012 : 01:24:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I would like them to eventually explain why Darth Vader did not recognize a droid he himself built, or that the same droid did not recognize its creator ...
That's easy. Vader did know who C-3PO was... his recognition comes in an EU comic book published by Dark Horse. It occurs during The Empire Strikes Back, after 3PO is blown apart. Vader momentarily visits the Ugnaught recycling facility, and picks up 3PO's head... reflecting on his boyhood.
As for C-3PO failing to recognise Vader, well, if you've seen Revenge of the Sith, then you know C-3PO had a droid mind-wipe. But I think it probably comes down to the fact that his creator, Anakin, and Darth Vader, were "two" very different people. Maybe C-3PO didn't recognise him. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 19 Dec 2012 : 01:29:58
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I would like them to eventually explain why Darth Vader did not recognize a droid he himself built, or that the same droid did not recognize its creator, or that he couldn't tell Leia was his daughter, even though he could sense Luke through the depths of space, or that Chewbacca didn't know anything in the later (actually first) three movies about what was going on, etc, etc. Ahhhh, how I miss the pure logic of Star Trek...
The pure logic of Star Trek? Like routinely sending your starship's entire command staff down to a planet and into potentially hostile situations?
That's not really part of standard Starfleet away-team protocol, though, as both Spock and Riker routinely noted during TOS and TNG. It's largely "Captain's Prerogative" to take the initiative and decide who will accompany him/her to the planet's surface -- in flagrant disregard of starship operating procedure.
Thus, I think trying to assign logic to a commanding officer's whimsical decision isn't really a fair comparison.
quote:
Like having the command staff of a starship remain unchanged for 20+ years, even after half of them are promoted to ranks where they should have their own commands?
But this has been dealt with, repeatedly I might add, in both television series/films and the expanded universe ST material.
For example, Data/B4 commands the Enterprise-E, Riker commands the Titan, and Worf has had numerous command positions since leaving the Enterprise-D/E. In fact, in one series, he's the Enterprise-E Executive Officer. |
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Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 19 Dec 2012 : 02:44:25
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I would like them to eventually explain why Darth Vader did not recognize a droid he himself built, or that the same droid did not recognize its creator, or that he couldn't tell Leia was his daughter, even though he could sense Luke through the depths of space, or that Chewbacca didn't know anything in the later (actually first) three movies about what was going on, etc, etc. Ahhhh, how I miss the pure logic of Star Trek...
The pure logic of Star Trek? Like routinely sending your starship's entire command staff down to a planet and into potentially hostile situations?
That's not really part of standard Starfleet away-team protocol, though, as both Spock and Riker routinely noted during TOS and TNG. It's largely "Captain's Prerogative" to take the initiative and decide who will accompany him/her to the planet's surface -- in flagrant disregard of starship operating procedure.
Thus, I think trying to assign logic to a commanding officer's whimsical decision isn't really a fair comparison.
If it's flagrant disregard of SOP, Kirk should have been repeatedly reprimanded, if not flat out demoted, for doing that. He endangered his ship with that routine, and instead of getting disciplined, he eventually made admiral -- and then was demoted back to being in the same position to keep flaunting the rules.
I think it's still valid to question that logic.
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Like having the command staff of a starship remain unchanged for 20+ years, even after half of them are promoted to ranks where they should have their own commands?
But this has been dealt with, repeatedly I might add, in both television series/films and the expanded universe ST material.
For example, Data/B4 commands the Enterprise-E, Riker commands the Titan, and Worf has had numerous command positions since leaving the Enterprise-D/E. In fact, in one series, he's the Enterprise-E Executive Officer.
Actually, I was referring to Kirk and crew. Other than one or two transfers that turned out to be temporary, they were all on the same bridge crew of the same ship (and its successor) until they were literally old and gray (or old and toupeé-ed).
I've also never understood how they could be boldly going where no man had gone before, but it was never more than a couple of days from the nearest Starfleet base...
And the recent movie also showed the Enterprise (or a similar ship) being constructed on Earth. It was shown with the big dish section attached. Where is the logic in that? Building it on Earth, in that fashion, would either require an enormous scaffolding to support the dish, or some of the toughest material in the universe in the neck-section to support all that weight hanging off of there. It would have been far easier, and made more sense, for either the dish to have been constructed separately, or for the whole thing to have been assembled in space. So this, too, shows a lack of logic.
I'm not trying to attack Star Trek; I'm just saying there is plenty that is illogical in Trek, as well. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 19 Dec 2012 : 03:17:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I would like them to eventually explain why Darth Vader did not recognize a droid he himself built, or that the same droid did not recognize its creator, or that he couldn't tell Leia was his daughter, even though he could sense Luke through the depths of space, or that Chewbacca didn't know anything in the later (actually first) three movies about what was going on, etc, etc. Ahhhh, how I miss the pure logic of Star Trek...
The pure logic of Star Trek? Like routinely sending your starship's entire command staff down to a planet and into potentially hostile situations?
That's not really part of standard Starfleet away-team protocol, though, as both Spock and Riker routinely noted during TOS and TNG. It's largely "Captain's Prerogative" to take the initiative and decide who will accompany him/her to the planet's surface -- in flagrant disregard of starship operating procedure.
Thus, I think trying to assign logic to a commanding officer's whimsical decision isn't really a fair comparison.
If it's flagrant disregard of SOP, Kirk should have been repeatedly reprimanded, if not flat out demoted, for doing that. He endangered his ship with that routine, and instead of getting disciplined, he eventually made admiral -- and then was demoted back to being in the same position to keep flaunting the rules.
I do believe both Spock and McCoy would've placed official complaints in their logs about some of Kirk's questionable actions during TOS. How many times did Spock advise against a particular "illogical" action that Kirk enacted, regardless of his First Officer's warnings? Plenty. And I'm sure Spock would've later recorded his concerns in both his log and any official reports he made to Starfleet.
Why Starfleet never acted on those concerns, though, I suppose, is puzzling. Maybe they just left it alone because... often, Kirk's actions brought results.
quote:
I think it's still valid to question that logic.
Perhaps. But we're talking about storytelling methods here, and Kirk's bizarre logic-bending actions were usually the impetus to carry the story forward. So in that regard, at least, I think it's difficult to apply a standard of logic to the case.
quote:
Actually, I was referring to Kirk and crew. Other than one or two transfers that turned out to be temporary, they were all on the same bridge crew of the same ship (and its successor) until they were literally old and gray (or old and toupeé-ed).
Not really. McCoy had several promotions which sometimes took him away from the Enterprise. [Though why he was returned to the ship when his tour of those other posts were concluded, is confusing.] Spock had a stint as a Teacher/Lecturer at Starfleet Academy. And Sulu [as per The Undiscovered Country] received his own command -- the Execelsior. Scotty, I think, too, took up a post at the Academy during his time on the Enterprise.
quote:
I'm not trying to attack Star Trek; I'm just saying there is plenty that is illogical in Trek, as well.
That I have no argument with. One need only look to the craziness evident in the later seasons of Voyager to realise that.  |
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sfdragon
Great Reader
2285 Posts |
Posted - 19 Dec 2012 : 06:51:39
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| Fscinating Admiral SAge, but what does any of this have to do wit hteh realms??? Live Long and prosper( does vulcan salute) and if you prefer sweet water and Light laughter |
why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power
My FR fan fiction
Magister's GAmbit
http://steelfiredragon.deviantart.com/gallery/33539234 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 19 Dec 2012 : 14:36:44
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LOL - its the ever-furious SW vs ST debate. Wish I hadn't brought it up.
THIS should resolve that issue once and for all.
Anyway, on-topic: canon is what you make of it. It doesn't really affect us - it affects the writers, so any complaints (on their part) of their being 'too much information', or any continuity gaffs/changes they make only makes their jobs harder. If they mess things up, we can still game with whatever era/material we want, and mix'N'match... the only thing bad continuity/canon will do is keep us from buying novels, which is the sole thing really affected by the canon. Everyone runs their own version of the Realms; do we worry about the laws in other countries? That would be silly - we should only care about what affects us (avoiding the obvious 'human condition' factor in those arguments). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 19 Dec 2012 : 16:08:43
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quote:
Originally posted by sfdragon
Fscinating Admiral SAge, but what does any of this have to do wit hteh realms??? Live Long and prosper( does vulcan salute) and if you prefer sweet water and Light laughter
Bah! SageSpeak is never bound by the dictates of Realms chatter. |
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Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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what makes it canon?
