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Amon The Pole
Acolyte
Poland
6 Posts |
 Posted - 04 Dec 2012 : 20:28:42
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Hi all
Is it any connection between dragonlance gods and faerun?
Is some of them orginaly move from FR
Are two settings has some gods in common?
I heard that Bane recently become god in other world but I do not remember it was dragonlance or greyhawk
greetings
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 04 Dec 2012 : 20:45:29
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Bane became a god in the theoretical Core World, not DL, or EB or GH for that matter (AFAIK).
At one time people said Tiamet and Takhisis were one and the same, but then they became separate... I don't think we were ever given an in-game explanation for that. I personally believe Takhisis was a local aspect of Tiamet (not the whole god), and thats why its death or whatever had no effect on its aspects on other worlds.
So officially, as of 3e, NO - all worlds have their own gods, even if they have the same names. |
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Edited by - Markustay on 04 Dec 2012 20:46:17 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36877 Posts |
Posted - 05 Dec 2012 : 04:21:19
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| And even in 2E, there were no connections between the gods of Toril and Krynn. |
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Barastir
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1601 Posts |
Posted - 05 Dec 2012 : 09:49:01
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There are indications, especially in 2e Tales of the Lance, that Takhisis would be an aspect of Tiamat, and Paladine would be somehow related to Bahamut. Dragonlance's fallen kingdom of Istar names Takhisis "Tii'Mhut" and Paladine "Bah'Mut". However, this boxed set tried to compile a lot of previous published information, and a lot of it became confusing and conflicting, maybe because there was some pressure and it was released without proper revisions... Well, the point is that apparently many fans of Dragonlance reject what is written in this box.
More important than that, the creators of Dragonlance and main writers of the classic books, Tracy Hickman and Margaret Weis, deny this link between the archetypical dragons/lesser draconic deities (at least in 1e and 2e) and the greater Dragonlance gods. But we cannot ignore that there was at least some inspiration involved, for the manifestations of the DL gods and the names and titles they received from mortals. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 05 Dec 2012 : 15:49:40
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Paladine and Takhisis are based on Bahamut and Tiamat. There are those who say they are the same, others who do not. There are plenty of arguments to support either side.
Does it matter if there is an established connection?
Not really. After all, they'll fill one role in DRAGONLANCE, and other roles in other worlds. Besides, 3e set things up to where each world has its own cosmology anyway.
Having said that, I'll further note that Tracy Hickman has always said that Takhisis was separate from Tiamat. Whereas Jeff Grubb prefers to think otherwise.
Ultimately, I'd say it's up to the DM as to whether the connection exists, or not. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36877 Posts |
Posted - 05 Dec 2012 : 17:00:35
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
Paladine and Takhisis are based on Bahamut and Tiamat. There are those who say they are the same, others who do not. There are plenty of arguments to support either side.
Does it matter if there is an established connection?
Not really. After all, they'll fill one role in DRAGONLANCE, and other roles in other worlds. Besides, 3e set things up to where each world has its own cosmology anyway.
Having said that, I'll further note that Tracy Hickman has always said that Takhisis was separate from Tiamat. Whereas Jeff Grubb prefers to think otherwise.
Ultimately, I'd say it's up to the DM as to whether the connection exists, or not.
I can see Jeff Grubb's viewpoint, but when it comes to Krynn, I'm going with Weis & Hickman long before anyone else. |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4460 Posts |
Posted - 05 Dec 2012 : 17:42:23
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| Much of Takhisis's art is featured with the prime chromatic dragons framing her. So for me, there is at least a little bit of correlation whether intended by Hickman and Weiss or not. Personally, I like the connection. |
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Barastir
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1601 Posts |
Posted - 05 Dec 2012 : 18:39:51
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I'm with the Sage when he says it doesn't matter, and with Wooly when he puts Weis & Hickman's opinion above others. And after some time I understood that this separation would be good, for if Takhisis were Tiamat, she would be aware, know and worry about other worlds; on the other hand, while being a separate, exclusively Krynnish deity she can focus on her own world, and the events linked to Tiamat in other worlds would not affect Dragonlance's history.  |
"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."
The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood) |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 06 Dec 2012 : 02:05:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
Paladine and Takhisis are based on Bahamut and Tiamat. There are those who say they are the same, others who do not. There are plenty of arguments to support either side.
Does it matter if there is an established connection?
Not really. After all, they'll fill one role in DRAGONLANCE, and other roles in other worlds. Besides, 3e set things up to where each world has its own cosmology anyway.
Having said that, I'll further note that Tracy Hickman has always said that Takhisis was separate from Tiamat. Whereas Jeff Grubb prefers to think otherwise.
Ultimately, I'd say it's up to the DM as to whether the connection exists, or not.
I can see Jeff Grubb's viewpoint, but when it comes to Krynn, I'm going with Weis & Hickman long before anyone else.
Aye. Jeff's viewpoint works if you're basing your game anywhere other than Krynn, primarily. |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 06 Dec 2012 : 04:20:48
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quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
Or if you're a fan of world-hopping adventure campaigns.... I've a hard time beliving that all those elves, dwarves, and gnomes on Krynn have NOTHING to do with the ones elsewhere.
Well, the various -nesti elven races of Krynn have very different origins when compared to the elves of Toril. As do the dwarves. But given the multitude of portals between alternate Prime Material Planes [especially evident in 2e], I'm sure the Silvanesti elves, for example, would be familiar with the sun elves of Toril.
quote:
And we already have canon lore stating that some Krynnish gnomes (and at least one kender, IIRC) have traveled to Faerun.
We can use the events of Into the Void as a basis. I don't think it was ever clearly defined what happened to the remaining Tinker Gnomes that were part of the "Probe's" crew. Some died, but a few may have been unaccounted for. So it's a possibility that at least some were left in Rauthaven. Perhaps they discovered a lost shrine to Gond somewhere in the city, or maybe a temple once dedicated to a Nimbral-derivative Wonderbringer interpretation based on the gnomish concept of Gond as Nebelun.
And I doubt Emilo Haversack, the kender from Tymora's Luck, has been the only member of that race to visit the Realms. Kender and their wanderlust, after all...  |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 06 Dec 2012 : 04:44:59
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| Dalamar has sat with Elminster many times... |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 10 Dec 2012 : 22:03:56
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| Aha! I had forgotten his inclusion in the "Wizards Three" articles. As for the elves, let's not forget the Imperial Elven Navy from Spelljammer, which no doubt has visited Krynn as well as Faerun. Or at the very least, they probably keep tabs on their Krynnish cousins. And Sage, you are quite right, of course. Kender have a way of finding their way to many new and out-of-the-way places. One even made it into my own HB world.... With Uncle Trapsringer's Spoon, no less! |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 11 Dec 2012 : 02:22:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
As for the elves, let's not forget the Imperial Elven Navy from Spelljammer, which no doubt has visited Krynn as well as Faerun.
Thinking back, I recall the Krynnspace supplement noting the spacefarers of the Crimson Caravan company are veteran traders regularly plying goods between Krynnspace, Greyspace, and Realmspace.
And I suspect more than a few native stowaways have jumped on-board and skipped from one Crystal Sphere to another. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36877 Posts |
Posted - 11 Dec 2012 : 04:35:42
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
As for the elves, let's not forget the Imperial Elven Navy from Spelljammer, which no doubt has visited Krynn as well as Faerun.
Thinking back, I recall the Krynnspace supplement noting the spacefarers of the Crimson Caravan company are veteran traders regularly plying goods between Krynnspace, Greyspace, and Realmspace.
And I suspect more than a few native stowaways have jumped on-board and skipped from one Crystal Sphere to another.
As I recall, there was a character in the Cloakmaster Cycle named Kendel Leafbower. Pretty sure he showed up in the first book, while still in Krynnspace, but that he was a native of Evermeet.
One of my on-again, off-again projects (Currently so much off-again it might be on Sage's To-Do list) involves an elven NPC who is of mixed moon elf/Qualinesti descent.
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 11 Dec 2012 : 05:30:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
As I recall, there was a character in the Cloakmaster Cycle named Kendel Leafbower. Pretty sure he showed up in the first book, while still in Krynnspace, but that he was a native of Evermeet.
Wait. Maybe I'm misremembering... but wasn't Kendal Leafbower a character from Elaine Cunningham's Silver Shadows? |
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sfdragon
Great Reader
2285 Posts |
Posted - 11 Dec 2012 : 05:33:53
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| Ias under some strange belief that if you traveled to krynn from anywhere that you couldnt travel back or something......not sure why |
why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36877 Posts |
Posted - 11 Dec 2012 : 11:16:45
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
As I recall, there was a character in the Cloakmaster Cycle named Kendel Leafbower. Pretty sure he showed up in the first book, while still in Krynnspace, but that he was a native of Evermeet.
Wait. Maybe I'm misremembering... but wasn't Kendal Leafbower a character from Elaine Cunningham's Silver Shadows?
Hmmm, think you're right. The elf I was thinking of was named something Leafbower, though, I'm sure of it. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 11 Dec 2012 : 14:10:20
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Leafblower?
Was he related in any way to the 'Hedgetrimmer' family?  |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 11 Dec 2012 : 14:47:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
As I recall, there was a character in the Cloakmaster Cycle named Kendel Leafbower. Pretty sure he showed up in the first book, while still in Krynnspace, but that he was a native of Evermeet.
Wait. Maybe I'm misremembering... but wasn't Kendal Leafbower a character from Elaine Cunningham's Silver Shadows?
Hmmm, think you're right. The elf I was thinking of was named something Leafbower, though, I'm sure of it.
You might be thinking of Vallus Leafbower, from Into the Void. He was an operative of the IEN. |
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Bakra
Senior Scribe
628 Posts |
Posted - 11 Dec 2012 : 16:37:48
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quote:
Originally posted by sfdragon
Ias under some strange belief that if you traveled to krynn from anywhere that you couldnt travel back or something......not sure why
It isn't strange at all. I think this was suggested after Krynn went missing. I'll dig around my old HD. I kept notes from the old Dragonlance forums. |
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore
5056 Posts |
Posted - 11 Dec 2012 : 18:11:22
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Well, I'd agree with Margaret and Tracy on just about everything Krynnish - - but NOT the gods. The gods of Dragonlance were Jeff Grubb's own gods, taken from his pre-existing D&D campaign. So on the Takhisis versus Tiamat thing, I'd go with Jeff's opinion.
(Most folks forget that Dragonlance was a created-in-house collaboration, with Margaret and Tracy emerging in the drivers' seats after their novels took off in popularity.)
Yes, I'm older than dirt.
love to all,
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coach
Senior Scribe
USA
479 Posts |
Posted - 14 Dec 2012 : 21:18:48
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yes, it doesn't really matter what the "official" stance is. Takhisis is too similar to Tiamat to not to be created specifically based upon the Tiamat mythos.
or are you guys believing that Takhisis and Tiamat are different ... are you saying that there are two separate evil female dragon deities with five heads that are Red, Blue, Green, Black, and White and each have an aspect of a dark haired beautiful female human and that the similarities are mere coincidence?
i mean i know that 3e says every world is separate but that doesnt make sense |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36877 Posts |
Posted - 14 Dec 2012 : 22:04:26
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quote:
Originally posted by coach
yes, it doesn't really matter what the "official" stance is. Takhisis is too similar to Tiamat to not to be created specifically based upon the Tiamat mythos.
or are you guys believing that Takhisis and Tiamat are different ... are you saying that there are two separate evil female dragon deities with five heads that are Red, Blue, Green, Black, and White and each have an aspect of a dark haired beautiful female human and that the similarities are mere coincidence?
i mean i know that 3e says every world is separate but that doesnt make sense
There doesn't have to be a connection for there to be that similarity, nor a coincidence. It could be that one deity came first, learned about the shape the other one took, and said, "Hey, that's pretty nifty! I'll do the same!" |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
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creyzi4zb12
Learned Scribe
Philippines
129 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jan 2013 : 01:41:19
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Is it possible that the planets and stars in Dragonlance Krynnverse are smaller than the ones in Forgotten Realms?
There was this one instance in Dragonlance where Raistlin grew too powerful to become a starbuster. |
orc orc orc orc orc orc orc orc orc orc orc |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36877 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jan 2013 : 04:46:00
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quote:
Originally posted by creyzi4zb12
Is it possible that the planets and stars in Dragonlance Krynnverse are smaller than the ones in Forgotten Realms?
There was this one instance in Dragonlance where Raistlin grew too powerful to become a starbuster.
Most stars in arcane space are not actually stars as well know them. They are instead very large critters, or portals to the plane of Radiance, or something else. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jan 2013 : 06:21:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by creyzi4zb12
Is it possible that the planets and stars in Dragonlance Krynnverse are smaller than the ones in Forgotten Realms?
There was this one instance in Dragonlance where Raistlin grew too powerful to become a starbuster.
Most stars in arcane space are not actually stars as well know them. They are instead very large critters, or portals to the plane of Radiance, or something else.
Pretty much. The stars in both Krynnspace and Realmspace are portals to the Plane of Radiance [or, rather, portals to a radiant region of the Elemental Chaos if we're talking the 4e cosmology]. The stars in Greyspace, on the other hand, are embedded jewels in the Crystal Sphere. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jan 2013 : 15:35:10
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So now I have to wonder how many Gnomish Paddlewheelers from Krynn or Realmspace are smooshed against those enormous gems.
"Lets take the radiance shortcut!"
Like moths to a flame. |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jan 2013 : 15:39:51
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I'm torn on this whole issue of stars...
I both like and dislike Spelljammer...I like stars being as they are in our universe: a star or system/galaxy in the sky.
To me, engaging the spelljamming helm simply transitions the craft into a parallel plane.
It is the only way I could mesh my desire to both have the Universe as somewhat "normal" and still allow spelljamming alongside technology.
EDIT: forgot to mention some things!
I reconciled the issue of tech in the realms not working by there actually being a powerful artifact that existed within the star of the Forgotten Realms which detected and neutralized certain tech at the direction of Ao. I never went beyond that though in thinking on it.
Magic to me is simply a type of Technology that uses existing physics of the universe in a different way. Magic is still technology in that sense...but a superior tech to that which we currently have on our own Earth.
As for Takhisis/Tiamat and Paladine/Bahamut...well, I still consider them as the same entity...that even on Krynn, Takhisis/Tiamat is only the manifestation of a greater being akin to that which is described in the Sumerian creation mythos. In the Forgotten Realms, Tiamat is both the same as and yet different from Takhisis because of Ao's dictates alone. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
Edited by - Dalor Darden on 08 Jan 2013 15:48:12 |
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creyzi4zb12
Learned Scribe
Philippines
129 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jan 2013 : 15:56:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by creyzi4zb12
Is it possible that the planets and stars in Dragonlance Krynnverse are smaller than the ones in Forgotten Realms?
There was this one instance in Dragonlance where Raistlin grew too powerful to become a starbuster.
Most stars in arcane space are not actually stars as well know them. They are instead very large critters, or portals to the plane of Radiance, or something else.
Wait, what?
Is this really true?
What kind of creature would that be? Some kind of huge Fire Elemental?
I mean, it must be really huge if you can actually see it so big from such a distance. |
orc orc orc orc orc orc orc orc orc orc orc |
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Conections between Dragonlance gods and Toril/FR
