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Naeryndam
Learned Scribe
USA
115 Posts |
 Posted - 03 Dec 2012 : 17:58:27
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What is the difference between Elves and Eladrin?
Some people have said eladrin are to elves what elves are to humans. Is that really true? Isn't that just the case for Noble Eladrin? The average eladrin doesn't receive that many bonuses and such that would make me believe them to be inherently superior to elves in 4E.
Some have said that eladrin are just what elves are called in 4E. Ok, that makes sense from a gaming perspective, but from a storytelling perspective, it doesn't. For instance, in the book "The Rose of Sarifal" Ordalf calls The Savage a gold elf. Yet, he refers to her as an eladrin. Clearly, there is some distinction being made, but what is it?
In "The Fall of Highwatch", the author mentions elves being present in the Feywild numerous times. He also mentions eladrin. So by that logic, eladrin cannot simply be elves that live in the Feywild, they have to be their on race. There has to be some kind of concrete difference that separates the two races. Can anyone break this down for me?
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Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2449 Posts |
Posted - 03 Dec 2012 : 20:17:40
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It doesn't help your question much, but my answer is and always will be:
1) elves are elves
2) eladrin are the native inhabitants of Arborea, the same way the tanar'ri are the natives of the Abyss or the baatezu natives of the Nine Hells.
Period. The end. Any other answer is 4e designer stupidity. |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 03 Dec 2012 : 20:35:46
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Its more like how humans and apes have a common ancestor. Except in this scenario, humans are also apes (I wonder if thats true?) 
The answers we've gotten 'officially' are very diverse and what I like to call "wishy-washy lore". Basically, they are the same thing, and as Hoondatha states Eladrin are from the Planes... except that FR Eladrin are from FR, which is why Core lore should have NEVER been dumped into FR.
So maybe its more like how I am human (although my ex would probably disagree), and some tribesman from Africa is human, but we look very different and have completely different cultures. The problem is that we have a nice neutral term like 'human' to cover that. In the case of Elves, the word becomes both the umbrella term and the specific term. It should read 'Eladrin Elves' and 'Sylvan Elves'. But instead of saying 'Sylvan Elves', everyone just says 'Elves'.
It has also been stated officially (by a designer who is no longer with the company) that you should just ignore the 4e terminology and use the terminology that goes with the setting. 'Eladrin' is just a mechanical D&D template for the Gold/Sun and Silver/Moon Elves of the Realms. People in the Realms do not use it; it is part of the game, not the setting. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 03 Dec 2012 20:36:49 |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4436 Posts |
Posted - 03 Dec 2012 : 22:29:12
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| It's terminology used to separate the distinction between two sub-races of elves and making that distinction mechanical as well. Basically, don't read too much into it. |
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Euranna
Learned Scribe
USA
219 Posts |
Posted - 04 Dec 2012 : 00:53:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Its more like how humans and apes have a common ancestor. Except in this scenario, humans are also apes (I wonder if thats true?)
Off topic, but yes, humans are pongids, ie great apes.
(Anthro degree is sometimes useful).
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Barastir
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1600 Posts |
Posted - 04 Dec 2012 : 09:59:43
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Naeryndam,
the point is that before 4e Eladrin were the archetypical faeries, outer planar "elves" and "sprites" with a lot of supernatural powers and otherwordly characteristics - the "celestials" of the plane of Arborea (they would be to the elves like angels would be to humans, in a way). In 4e, the elves were divided into "eladrin" (the more civilized elves, a little more magical than the others), and "elves" (a little more "earthly"). This was general information for Dungeons & Dragons, not to a specific setting.
In the Forgotten Realms, there already was Sun elves (noble elves who tend to be isolationist and sometimes arrogant), Moon elves (the most commonly found, adventurous and easy-going), Star elves (a race created in 3e, IIRC, of elves that lived in their own plane/dimension and that were returning to the mortal/material plane), Wood and Wild elves (different names of the same race in 2e, but made different in 3e; they are even more linked to the forests than the other elves, some living in nomadic tribes and leading simple - even kind of barbaric - lives).
When 4e divided the races, Sun, Moon and Star elves were dubbed (I think mostly to fit in the new rules) "eladrin", while Wild and Wood elves were considered simply "elves". IIRC, then it was established that a link with the plane/dimension of the faeries was recovered, and that would be the reason why the eladrin received some new magic powers, not present im the previous editions (but nothing akin to the powers of a pre-4e eladrin).
There are other kinds of elves, like the winged elves, aquatic elves, and dark elves, but I think they are not considered elves nor eladrin, and have different statistics themselves.
Hope I helped, for this story is a bit confusing. 
EDIT: Clarifications |
"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."
The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood) |
Edited by - Barastir on 04 Dec 2012 14:03:22 |
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Marc
Senior Scribe
657 Posts |
Posted - 04 Dec 2012 : 15:44:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Naeryndam
What is the difference between Elves and Eladrin?
Some people have said eladrin are to elves what elves are to humans. Is that really true?
That's the le shay. Not all eladrin are elf-like, for example look at the shiradi, bralani, or Pathfinder azatas. To avoid confusion I recommend you use Planescape Monstrous Compendium 2. Warriors of Heaven and 4th edition versions of eladrin are a result of very poor design. |
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Rils
Learned Scribe
USA
108 Posts |
Posted - 04 Dec 2012 : 16:43:19
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The major difference is in 4e terminology vs. every other edition's terminology. In earlier editions, as has been stated, eladrin were outsiders native to Arborea. They had a lot of elf-like qualities, but were not elves.
In 4e, when they condensed the planes, Arborea morphed into the Feywild. Elves had been defined as fey, so there were now two elvish races hailing from the same place. The upshot is that Eladrin got re-imaged as "high elves". The fluff is that there was once one races of Elves in the feywild, who worshipped a trinity of deities - Corellon, Sehanine, and Lolth. Lolth betrayed her sibling deities, and they kicked her and her followers (who became the drow) into the Underdark. A big chunk of proto-elves migrated to the natural world, where they naturalized under Sehanine's protection and became generic/"green" Elves. Those who stayed in the Feywild with Corellon became the high-elves, or Eladrin.
Basically a rip-off of Tolkien's Noldor/Teleri/Avari concept - the high elves with a pinnacle of wisdom and knowledge and art and culture, the green elves who live in the forests and are on generally good terms with their "city-folk" cousins, and the dark elves with their own removed culture doing their own thing. |
Dugmaren Brightmantle is my homey. |
Edited by - Rils on 04 Dec 2012 16:43:52 |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 04 Dec 2012 : 18:34:12
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In Core 4e, elves and eladrin (and drow, for that matter) are different but related races. They share a common ancestor (i.e. all created from the same source), but look and function differently.
In the FR setting specifically, elves (low elves like wood elves, wild elves) and eladrin (high elves like sun elves, moon elves) and drow (dark elves) are all different types of elves. They have all existed in the Realms long before anyone though to apply the term "eladrin" to any of them--previously, the term was reserved for a certain kind of angelic fey being (such as a bralani, coure, etc).
Only a very small number of people in the Realms use the term "eladrin" to apply to high elves, and then mostly inaccurately, in a bid to try to "look sagely." For us, it is strictly a mechanical distinction, and barely applicable to the actual game.
The implication seems to be that what the PHB1 calls an "eladrin" is a proto-fey that could in theory become one of these angelic fey creatures, given sufficient time to accumulate power, much like how a human could become a deva or planetar (at least, that's the theory--we don't know how that all works). What is clear is that not all mundane "eladrin" are destined to become such things.
Also, D&D-Next shows signs of doing away with the eladrin concept as applied to mundane PC races, which I think is a good idea. This is all very confusing.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2449 Posts |
Posted - 04 Dec 2012 : 19:06:13
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| And unnecessary. |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 04 Dec 2012 : 20:36:15
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Just go back to 'High Elves' and 'Wood Elves'. That always worked for me. The distinction between the (old-school) High and Gray Elves was more of a cultural thing (exactly like the difference between Moon and sun Elves in FR).
'Eladrin' then becomes something to shoot for, in much the same way that some Christian faiths say mortals can become angels (although I don't know if that is actual dogma or just legend). So some Eladrin may be ascended mortals (they basically become minor exarchs), while others were created whole-cloth in the Planes.
Although I'm not so thrilled by any Celestial - or fiend for that matter - being able to breed without some sort of mortal help involved. I think created races - especially servitor races like Celestials (and possibly Dgen) - should be mules; unable to breed without some sort of divine intervention or hob-nobbing with mortals. Thats just my own personal preferences on that matter - it seems closer to folklore regarding such creatures.
That means all outsiders below deity status should be created from mortal souls (which could be reincarnation, or the more primitive method of generating new souls... sex). Once a soul has 'died' it should be 'tagged' so that it cannot breed without help (dead people should not have children, no matter what some silly movies portray). With a little magic/divine help, a 'dead' soul could conceivably generate a new soul if its partner still has a 'fresh' soul. So at least one living person must be involved (which could explain why deities in mythology are always rutting with mortals... same goes for fiends).
Which now beggers the question, if someone dies (in D&D) and is brought back, could they still have a child? If what I said above holds true, then two such rezzed individuals may not be able to have children with each other. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 04 Dec 2012 20:37:32 |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4436 Posts |
Posted - 05 Dec 2012 : 14:42:32
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I don't really use the term Eladrin when referencing high elven races of settings outside PoL/Nentir Vale. Basically it's inaccurate, as Erik stated, to apply these same terms to every setting. Eladrin don't exist in World of Warcraft, for example, but I'd use their stats for High elves. Same goes for pretty much ANY non-Nentir Vale setting, be it Forgotten Realms or Eberron or Dark Sun.
I will admit that more differentiation would've been nice in the 4e FR books than what was noted. |
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Shemmy
Senior Scribe
USA
492 Posts |
Posted - 06 Dec 2012 : 06:30:11
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quote:
Originally posted by MarcThat's the le shay. Not all eladrin are elf-like, for example look at the shiradi, bralani, or Pathfinder azatas.
I can only speak for the last, but at least for what I've done on them, it's intentional so that there's less confusion (and there's also a clearly defined fey-realm of the First World in PF, which the azata have no connection with, which hopefully removes any confusion about a link there). |
Shemeska the Marauder, King of the Crosstrade; voted #1 best Arcanaloth in Sigil two hundred years running by the people who know what's best for them; chant broker; prospective Sigil council member next election; and official travel agent for Chamada Holiday specials LLC.
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Razz
Senior Scribe
USA
749 Posts |
Posted - 14 Dec 2012 : 02:09:06
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| Oh boy...do I really want to jump in on this again? The OP's question is the highlight of everything I found wrong with 4e fluff-wise (mechanics-wise is another story). |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 15 Dec 2012 : 04:52:14
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| Hmm, okay MT, that's an interesting theory, although I have one of my own, which is that souls can be "grown" by those without them, so long as they have at least PART of one. In other words, if a spiritual entity (who is pure spirt, at least on the material plane) gains a partial of half soul, it can eventually regrow the rest of the soul to have one of its own. Soulless creatures (like certain undead- ie, vampires) might use this as a means of "recovering" their lost soul, or a creature that is a native of the planes might acquire one in order to become mortal. Think of it like Seth in City of Angels, or like Mare Imbrium in the Xanth novels. (A literal Night Mare who gains a half-soul as payment for a service, and instead of turning it in to her master, keeps it and ends up with a whole soul of her own!) This might help explain why souls are such valuable currency in the Planes. If you can get your hands on even half of one, you might be able to grow your own. Whole souls would obviously be very valuable commodities, for the possibility of carving them up to distribute to those who want one of their own. |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 15 Dec 2012 : 17:06:01
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I'm not sure if I want to go down this road (since its borderline 'real world' theology), but what if a 'whole soul' = a 'pure soul'? What if souls have something akin to a power-rating? Suppose a newborn (from two living parents) has a soul at 100% capacity. This is why the souls of children are so important. Then at age 13 (or whatever, depending upon your religion-of-choice) the soul becomes accountable for the actions of its material host body. 'Bad deeds' take away soul energy; a truly vile person would be practically souless (which is what happens in the case of nearly all vampires).
This is sort of related to how some of the setting-specific rules worked in Ravenloft: when you used magic (or did anything else that counted as 'evil') there was a chance of gaining corruption, or 'taint'. Pure (whole) souls would be extremely valuable, but someone with one may not be able to access certain powers, which is why some Mages make diabolic deals and use their souls as currency. Very few living beings can obtain great power without gaining some of that corruption (Elminster being a good FR example of one such person). Most will make trade-offs, until they've made too many and they are well on the road to darkness. Maybe thats part of Ed's 'Temptation of Elminster'. Its like how The Force works in Star Wars - too many believe that 'greater power' is available to the Dark Side, but the truth is, the Side of Light is far more powerful... but so few can obtain it without loosing their way (it becomes a nigh-impossible goal as one becomes more powerful - folks 'loose faith' and take easier paths).
So, if this holds water, then Elminster has a "baby's soul" - something unheard of in someone his age. To a fiend, he is both the ultimate prize, and also dangerous poison... but what fiend can resist? Souls are like heroin to them - the purer the better, but oh so damaging. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 15 Dec 2012 17:07:15 |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 15 Dec 2012 : 23:07:53
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I wasn't thinking so much as "pure", but a soul that is completely "whole" in terms of being complete. In Xanth (and in Piers Anthony's other major series Incarnations of Immortality) souls can be torn or damaged, with souls that are torn in half being able to eventually regrow the lost part from BOTH pieces, which would eventually make two "whole" souls. Whoever posesses each piece can potentially have an entire soul of their own.
A "pure" soul would be determined by different means, and in the Incarnations books, Death himself uses a kind of "soul-reader" to determine the amount of evil tainting a soul. Theoretically, a soul that is torn in half could grow back more or less "pure" than before, if the person it belongs to becomes a better or worse person than before it was divided. This would lead to some interesting ramifications if someone's soul is carved up, and whoever gets the "evil" portion claims it for their own- and then slowly becomes corrupted as the evil in the partial soul takes over. Conversely, a more "pure" soul-portion could lead to a person or entity becoming more and more pious and righteous, perhaps eventually leading them to take up paladinhood or even conversion to an angelic being! |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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BlackAce
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
358 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jan 2013 : 18:07:02
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Eladrin are the chosen of Corellon; Tel'Quessir 2.0.
Fluff elaboration: It's recently become fashionable among elven noble families to claim decent from or even to be Eladrin. These 'blue blood' claims are in the finest tradition of Elven haughtiness and snobbery and nine hundred and ninety nine times out of a thousand have no basis in fact.
That said there are some Eladrin to be found on Toril.... |
Edited by - BlackAce on 05 Jan 2013 18:32:50 |
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Nicolai Withander
Master of Realmslore
Denmark
1093 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jan 2013 : 20:17:51
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Personally, not taking into account, whether or not it is canon, I use it like this. Eladrin is the original first planar elves who traveled to Realm Space many millennia ago. They are more powerful, wiser, beautiful, and they live longer. The High elves are the ones who are the closest in heritage to the Eladrin.
I don’t know how far or close this is to canon, since I stopped trying to understand it all, but that’s the way I like it!
Sorry I can’t answer your question more correctly!
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Edited by - Nicolai Withander on 07 Jan 2013 20:18:18 |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jan 2013 : 14:17:45
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If you want to see what Eldarin were before the mix-up, they have a full section in Planescape Monstrous Compendium Appendix II. (2nd Edition)
In my book they are as similar to elves as they are to faeries. This was a TERRIBLE mash-up. |
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Eladrin
