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Eilserus
Master of Realmslore
USA
1446 Posts |
 Posted - 19 Oct 2012 : 18:46:49
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It sounds like things got a little changed up when they reduced the page count of the book and then increased it again. Either way it's still a great resource to have. I think we'll see a more Volo guide approach in future volumes when/if Ed gets to describe power groups and other plots.
And let's just put it this way. This book is a very good direction for the Realms to be heading in and really is an essential tome to describing life in the Realms. If you're worried about 4E or Shade or any other reference in the text, we're talking less than a page of information if we totaled it all up. And I'll let you in on a little secret: Ed hints that Shar is about to kick the Shade to the curb. ;) |
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Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2449 Posts |
Posted - 19 Oct 2012 : 18:56:44
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| Diffan, I agree that the product as described in the post I linked to would be narrow and non-canon. That's partly why I was surprised to hear it announced, but I had always thought it would probably be a one-off, sort of a "celebration of the Realms and where it's come from," before they geared up to bring us the 5e Realms. It wouldn't have been viable as the start of a new product line, but as a tribute product I thought it made sense. |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4438 Posts |
Posted - 19 Oct 2012 : 19:11:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Hoondatha
Diffan, I agree that the product as described in the post I linked to would be narrow and non-canon. That's partly why I was surprised to hear it announced, but I had always thought it would probably be a one-off, sort of a "celebration of the Realms and where it's come from," before they geared up to bring us the 5e Realms. It wouldn't have been viable as the start of a new product line, but as a tribute product I thought it made sense.
Having not read the book (or even looked at it yet) does it fullfill the expectations of being a tribute product? |
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Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2449 Posts |
Posted - 19 Oct 2012 : 19:25:26
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| No. What it reads like is (as someone else said in one of these two threads) as if WotC found some unpublished book from the 2e "golden days of pure lore" period on Life In General in the Realms. And something that could definitely serve as the start of a new series of lorebooks. |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 19 Oct 2012 : 19:51:14
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I simply can't see the reason for anyone who says they like the Forgotten Realms to NOT buy this book...unless they simply can't afford it.
The book has more information about the Forgotten Realms than any book in YEARS...and it can be applied WHENEVER you might like. The vast majority of the information is something that can be used whether you are playing in 1000 DR or 1500 DR...period.
Anyone who says the book "can't be used" or "isn't good enough" is just simply missing the point of this type of book and isn't really going to be happy with anything published at all. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Marc
Senior Scribe
658 Posts |
Posted - 19 Oct 2012 : 20:03:52
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| Still waiting for the shipment. I'm sure it's a nice book, tough secretly my hopes were that it would include the original Realms, Stygian Old Empires, different countries east of Thay, the Great Glacier, true Netheril ... |
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Mournblade
Master of Realmslore
USA
1287 Posts |
Posted - 19 Oct 2012 : 20:06:14
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This book simply is great!
It is the best realms book since 3rd edition FR Campaign Guide. Maybe with the exception of the Faiths and Pantheons.
It rings of the VOLO series of books. 4e is a time of blight for the realms but the fact of the matter is that the creators are doing their best to fix the blight within marketing reason. I support the effort and I can deal with 4e remnants. If you are skipping this book because of a reference to the spell plague you are doing yourself a disservice.
You might actually be doing a disservice to the other fans because if it does not sell well than more like it will not have a possibility to be released.
Voting with your wallet against the 4e realms was valid and warranted, because the change was unneeded and unwanted. The EFR is a breath of fresh air that will only ADD to your campaign. It is a needed change in the way books are done for the forgotten realms.
I think the creators truly are righting the ship of the Forgotten Realms. This book for me is more proof of that. Not a detractor.
The only detractor is that stupid cover texture. I have a whole thread complaining about that, but really, give us smooth covers again that will not feel dirty.
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A wizard is Never late Frodo Baggins. Nor is he Early. A wizard arrives precisely when he means to... |
Edited by - Mournblade on 19 Oct 2012 20:07:48 |
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Bravesteel
Acolyte
USA
23 Posts |
Posted - 20 Oct 2012 : 00:57:24
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I went to check out the book at my local Hastings store. I don't have the extra funds right now, with my fiance's birthday coming up, but I did put it on my Amazon wish list. Altogether I liked what I saw, especially trying to be as edition neutral as possible. My hope is that with more Ed Greenwood Presents books, we'll start to see a glimpse of what the 5th Edition Realms is going to be like. I'll be getting it for sure, either as a Christmas gift, or bought myself that you can be sure of.
On an off note, I went and looked at the "Science Fiction" section of the paperback part of Hastings and found a "Volo's Guide to the Sword Coast" for $4.99, and I promptly snatched that up. I started D&D at the tail end of 2nd edition (started with the boxed set with all the dragonlance references and the red dragon on the front) so I still call it a good day, but can't wait for the Ed Greendwood Presents book! |
I loved to read and to write, but then something happened. As I made my way through school, I kept getting handed books to read that didn't excite me and didn't even remotely connect to the realities of my life.- R. A. Salvatore
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Mapolq
Senior Scribe
Brazil
466 Posts |
Posted - 20 Oct 2012 : 03:48:26
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I haven't ordered my copy yet, but I'll be doing that soon. From what I've read, it's pretty much everything I expected.
I guess the way they showcased elements from some particular editions by including their big "selling points" (Time of Troubles! Shades! Spellplague!) could be averted, but some mention of the lore from these periods is welcome. I mean, you can't make a definition of "edition-neutral" that excludes the possibility of mentioning anything that's ever been published in a sourcebook (since everything so far has been edition-specific). Nor would I want everything to be "Ed's Realms" from now on. As much as I think Ed is one of the best makers of myth of our generation, I wouldn't want to lose the contributions of Schend, Boyd, Grubb, Krashos, Reynolds et al. to the limbo. Being a shared world is one of the Realms' greatest strengths. It is in a lot of ways a vulnerability as well, but I think the good outweighs the bad.
However, I think WotC could definitely make an effort to stop defining the Realms by the "big events", or RSEs. As I implied in my first line, I don't consider this book to be a particularly bad case of that. REALLY far from it, actually. I'm just pointing out a few edges that could be smoothed in my opinion. And that's just from reading the excerpts and reviews, of course. |
Never sleep under the jackfruit tree.
Tales of Moonsea - A Neverwinter Nights 2 Persistent World. Check out our website at http://www.talesofmoonsea.com and our video trailer at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=am304WqOAAo&feature=youtu.be, as well as our thread here at Candlekeep: http://www.forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=12955
My campaign thread: http://www.forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=16447 |
Edited by - Mapolq on 20 Oct 2012 03:50:49 |
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Tarlyn
Learned Scribe
USA
315 Posts |
Posted - 20 Oct 2012 : 04:02:02
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While I have only read the magic and gods sections, I find it very difficult to even understand the complaints of referencing Cyric and spell plague. Honestly, I started playing in 2ed and still can't stand Cyric and my opinion of spell plague is even lower. However, the Cyric section of the text basically describes him as an incompetent Bane substitute that isn't likely to last long. I haven't reached the spell plague reference. Most of the examples Ed provides are from 1340s -1350s, so if you are looking for cool ideas about that era this is your book. The takes on several gods including Malar and Shar are very different than I have seen in other cannon sources.
quote:
It is the best realms book since 3rd edition FR Campaign Guide. Maybe with the exception of the Faiths and Pantheons.
I would go with since Lost Empires of Faerun, but yea this thing easily competes with the best books 3e put out lore wise and even could be compared to some of the 2e lore books IMO. |
Tarlyn Embersun |
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Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader
USA
2717 Posts |
Posted - 20 Oct 2012 : 04:29:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Bravesteel
On an off note, I went and looked at the "Science Fiction" section of the paperback part of Hastings and found a "Volo's Guide to the Sword Coast" for $4.99, and I promptly snatched that up.
Congrats on the find! I wish I were lucky enough to find a Volo's Guide (to the Dalelands; still don't have a paper copy of that one).
Right after work I picked up Elminster's Forgotten Realms...it was a bit of an adventure.
I got to the bookstore--one I've never been to before, but sort of remembered from a years-ago commute and drove tentatively in the direction of on faith--only to discover I didn't have enough cash in my pocket (the $40 price tag is a little hurtful for those of us lacking extra income).
So I hightailed it out of there to go find a branch of my bank, discovered one some two looooong city blocks away on the other side of the street, made a U-turn and, miracle of miracles, found the one parking space available (did I mention the bank fronts a large, always busy shopping mall and is in the process of being remodeled, with chunks of its available parking taken up by truck-sized refuse containers?) with two minutes to go before the bank closed.
I withdrew my cash and drove back to the bookstore with the setting sun helpfully positioned at eye level, wishing I had enough funds to get Elminster Enraged in hardcover as well.
Once inside, and after taking one last, wistful look at Elminster Enraged, I bought Elminster's Forgotten Realms, then I sat in my truck and leafed through its pages.
My eyes were drawn to the type-written and hand-drawn entries done up by Ed from back in the day (twenty one such entries, unless I've miscounted), while my hands were repulsed by the texture of the cover.
It occurred to me if someone were to pass out on a couch and you taped this book to their hands, the cover texture would make them pee their pants. 
As for the foolishness about turning one's nose up at this book because Cyric is in it: to me that's like being a stubborn child who refuses to eat an (expensive!) meal because it has a little bit of onion in it.
I'm a grown up. I've learned to eat my onions. And this book is far and away too awesome to pass up over trivialities in editing. |
Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver). |
Edited by - Jeremy Grenemyer on 20 Oct 2012 04:32:05 |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6666 Posts |
Posted - 20 Oct 2012 : 07:16:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Therise
How about you really sit down and re-assess what you are saying, and why? When fans dislike something, and let designers/contributors know, they are taking valuable time out of their day to point out exactly why something wasn't purchased. They are letting designers/contributors know what they -would- purchase.
I have written about three responses to this and deleted them all. The only thing I'll respond to is the "why" part of Therise's post above. Why? Because I want the Realms to thrive. Why? Because I'm not naive enough to think that after 25 years of FR releases that every product written for the setting will tick all of my boxes. Why? Because I long ago decided to take the good with the bad. Why? Because I consider that the game setting I love is going through a transition that requires it to receive maximum support from the fan base if it is to survive in a meaningful fashion. Why? Because Ed Greenwood deserves my support. Why? Because I'm an FR glass half-full type of guy.
I'm eagerly awaiting my copy of this book to hit my shores. When I get it, I will devour it. I expect to enjoy it just as much if not more than the excerpts that have been released to date. Therise will be reading something else. I hope she receives as much satisfaction reading his book as I know I will receive from reading this book.
-- George Krashos
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"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
Edited by - George Krashos on 20 Oct 2012 11:38:33 |
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Old Man Harpell
Senior Scribe
USA
495 Posts |
Posted - 20 Oct 2012 : 10:09:58
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I'll preface by saying I've ordered the book, along with Menzoberranzan (and the latest Rush album) from Amazon - being a completionist, it was a foregone conclusion that I would.
Therise is not wrong when she says 'this isn't the book that was marketed to us', and I don't blame her for being annoyed. Everything that was said was stated in a manner that led us to believe that it would be 'all Ed, the entire book', and the inclusion of edition-specific concepts means that it is not 'all Ed, the entire book' (although, really...we should have seen it coming, that's just the way Wizbro thinks)
What I would like to know, assuming that the geography of Faerun in this tome matches that of the pre-Sellplague (3rd Edition and earlier) Realms, what is the Sellplague/time jump stuff even doing in the book? How does it fit in? Are they making alterations based on the upcoming Sundering, or if it happened before that, how did it affect the makeup of the 'affected areas'?
And if his home campaign (as we were led to believe the book is at least modeled on) has not yet reached the ToT, how is Cyric presented? Did he ascend in an alternate fashion? How is he a god now? How is he interacting with the existing deities? I 'hear' there's no Kelemvor (and thank goodness for that) - is Cyric still going off on a lunatic tangent about Kelemvor, anyways? Did he already write the Cyrinishad? Is he plotting to kill Mystra - again?
Argh.
This all could have been avoided with 'Optional sidebars'. Grey blocks with the optional text inside them on the sides of a few of the pages, or better yet, an 'Appendix of Options' at the very back of the book, making suggestions on how Wizbro thinks you can work Wizbro's in-house stuff into the Ed-exclusive content of the book itself, without actually making it an implied part (as it seems to be doing, from what I've been 'hearing').
It sounds like a great book, and I'm certainly looking forward to getting my hands on it. Unlike the 'official' timeline that carried us into 4th Edition, I can pass off the unwanted 'official' stuff as Wizbro failing to follow through on its (admittedly implied) promise of 'all Ed, the entire book' (which that extraneous stuff is not). There is no doubt in my mind that it was included last-minute after Ed turned his work in - I just can't help but think that he wouldn't have included any of that stuff on his own, considering the rather poor press it received, as well as the rather good press this book was generating prior to release.
- OMH |
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althen artren
Senior Scribe
USA
780 Posts |
Posted - 20 Oct 2012 : 15:00:10
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7000 pages of Ed. Yes, thank you. I would get two more
jobs to pay for them. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 20 Oct 2012 : 15:17:12
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As egotistical as I am (and I am so egotistical I may even say I am the best at it ), I would never in a million years think that a company would produce a product to make ME 100% happy. Thats ludicrous. When shopping for anything you normally have a list of criteria, and try to get as close as possible to it; you rarely get everything you want (and that goes for shopping for a spouse).
There are a lot of things about a lot of editions of FR I have disliked over the years, including Ed's original. If a product makes me even 80% happy then the designers are doing a damn fine job. Anything above that number is pure gravy (and the OGB sat around 99%).
EGP:EFR I don't consider a destination - I consider it 'the journey'. We are still heading in the right direction.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 20 Oct 2012 15:18:41 |
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Marc
Senior Scribe
658 Posts |
Posted - 20 Oct 2012 : 15:28:46
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| Can't we have a kickstarter project for Ed's 7000 pages, it would not cost WotC anything and would bring thousands of fans back? |
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idilippy
Senior Scribe
USA
417 Posts |
Posted - 20 Oct 2012 : 15:47:42
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| Probably not possible since the Realms are currently held by WotC. A side project from a freelancer for them about "their" licensed (if that's the right term) setting I can't see working. |
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Razz
Senior Scribe
USA
749 Posts |
Posted - 20 Oct 2012 : 16:22:00
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Finally got mine today, UPS lost the package and Amazon sent one overnight free of charge. Anyway, just skimming through and enjoying what I see.
My one minor complaint is I do wish they had something mechanical in there. Prime example is when they talk about diseases in the book and they detail a few of the known diseases. I wish they also put, in a small sidebar, mechanical game statistics for the diseases. It being a 4e book it would get 4e mechanics, but I think WotC should provide mechanical statistics for all editions in a sidebar on the diseases, it'd take up little space.
I've always wanted to know exactly the game mechanic for the Shaking Plague since it's so widely talked about, and even this book gives it a paragraph, but no edition has ever produced a game mechanic for it.
That would be my only suggestion for books like this. Little mechanics where absolutely necessary and it'll be perfect.
Going to do a lot of reading today and tonight now. :D |
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Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2449 Posts |
Posted - 20 Oct 2012 : 16:39:05
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I'm the opposite, I'm glad there's no statistics anywhere. This book is at its core a 1e book. It's set in the 1e timeline, with allowances for the next three additions' advancing of the timeline. So you'd need to give four different statistics for anything you stat out. Maybe you could condense that to three, given how close in many regards 1e and 2e are, but still, that gets unwieldy really quickly. Better to just give the lore and let people stat it up the way they want.
Since I'm a 2e player, I'd handle the shaking plague as saves vs. poison. The first to see if you get it, the second is a save or die. Depending on what you're doing and how close you get (just circling around an infected village vs. working with the sick) would apply bonuses or penalties. |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
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Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2449 Posts |
Posted - 20 Oct 2012 : 16:52:44
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Old Man Harpell, I think the best way to answer your question is to fair use a couple of small quotes from the book which are typical of the way times after the 1350's are dealt with.
From Drinks of Choice - Coffee: "The Bedine of Anauroch call coffee "qahwa" or just "qaw," and they trade little in it. Since the reappearance of Shade, the surviving Bedine cosume almost all of their qaw themselves. Through the machinations of the D'tarig, a tiny trickle of Bedine beans formerly reached Zhentil Keep..."
From Drinks of Choice - Wine: "In particular, the production of Tethyr's coastal vineyards has climbed steadily throughout the 1300s DR and 1400s DR."
From Day Jobs for Adventurers - Bounty Hunters: "[stuff about other adventurers going rogue and rulers] ...send other adventuring bands out to deal with them. In 1400 DR, a shift in public attitude toward bounty hunters began. In that year, the Masked Lords of Waterdeep issued... [rest of the paragraph details private citizens being able to send bounty hunters against bandits that wronged them]"
As you can see, the mentions of later editions are used to show how things have changed from the described "base." And that base is usually the 1350's, though sometimes it's even earlier. There are no mentions, as far as I've yet found, of the Spellplague, spellscarred, or geography shifts. |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 20 Oct 2012 : 17:29:37
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| At the FLGS, I was informed that this was the first Dungeons and Dragons release that they have sold out right off the bat in years. Apparently when I couldn't find it there the other day, it was because they had it early as a preferred retailer and all of the copies had sold. It's local and its anecdotal, but it's still good news. |
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Tarlyn
Learned Scribe
USA
315 Posts |
Posted - 20 Oct 2012 : 17:33:02
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| That's great news. |
Tarlyn Embersun |
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Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader
USA
2717 Posts |
Posted - 20 Oct 2012 : 17:52:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Old Man Harpell
(although, really...we should have seen it coming, that's just the way Wizbro thinks)
Was this really necessary? FWIW, when people complain about axe-grinding, this is what they're talking about. |
Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver). |
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Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2449 Posts |
Posted - 20 Oct 2012 : 18:27:55
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| It would be, if WotC hadn't aptly earned it over the years. There's axe-grinding, and then there are legitimate grievances sprung from deceptive marketing and lack of concern for the user base. |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4438 Posts |
Posted - 20 Oct 2012 : 19:25:03
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quote:
Originally posted by Hoondatha
It would be, if WotC hadn't aptly earned it over the years. There's axe-grinding, and then there are legitimate grievances sprung from deceptive marketing and lack of concern for the user base.
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 20 Oct 2012 : 19:39:23
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| I'll put it this way. Complaining about how WOTC markets things or some of the decisions lets them know where they lost you as a customer. Coming up with pet names for them or saying that they always or never do something tends to signal to them that they are never going to have you as a customer or that they cannot get reliable information from you about how they can obtain your business. |
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Razz
Senior Scribe
USA
749 Posts |
Posted - 20 Oct 2012 : 19:40:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Hoondatha
I'm the opposite, I'm glad there's no statistics anywhere. This book is at its core a 1e book. It's set in the 1e timeline, with allowances for the next three additions' advancing of the timeline. So you'd need to give four different statistics for anything you stat out. Maybe you could condense that to three, given how close in many regards 1e and 2e are, but still, that gets unwieldy really quickly. Better to just give the lore and let people stat it up the way they want.
Since I'm a 2e player, I'd handle the shaking plague as saves vs. poison. The first to see if you get it, the second is a save or die. Depending on what you're doing and how close you get (just circling around an infected village vs. working with the sick) would apply bonuses or penalties.
Your suggestion is one-sided, unfortunately, because you can choose to ignore mechanics placed to make up your own. Not all of us are extremely creative nor do we like to scratch our heads trying to devise a proper statistic (e.g. "Do I make this disease DC 13, 15, or 19? Should I make it do 2d6 Dexterity damage or 3d6? Is there Con loss or maybe I should have it where at 0 Dex, you die, to make it exceptional? Should I make 2 or 3 consecutive saves ends the disease?) It saves time and headaches for DMs with less time, such as myself, to spend on statistics when I should be spending time revolving a quest around a kernel of interesting lore I found in the book.
All in all, it's still a great book but we're also reading this book 90% of the time for the purpose of gaming, and a few gaming statistics is never a bad thing. |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 20 Oct 2012 : 19:44:49
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I can see where mechanics would be something that people might like, but I do think it would take away from the universal theme of this work. It really is being sold as being edition neutral.
Placing stats for all editions of play thus far would only serve to take away from the amount of setting information that Ed get's to talk about.
I'd love it if WOTC would decide that kind of information makes for good web articles, however. |
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Razz
Senior Scribe
USA
749 Posts |
Posted - 20 Oct 2012 : 20:03:49
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quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
I'd love it if WOTC would decide that kind of information makes for good web articles, however.
A web article would perfectly be suitable, I will agree there. But to have no mechanics ever is just plain silly, IMO. |
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PaulBestwick
Seeker
United Kingdom
83 Posts |
Posted - 20 Oct 2012 : 20:26:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Razz
A web article would perfectly be suitable, I will agree there. But to have no mechanics ever is just plain silly, IMO.
No stats does mean more room for lore and that can't be a bad thing can it? Not got my copy yet, but surely you can approximate the serverity, or start a thread here at the keep to privide stats in each edition. I am sure the WotC would love something like that for a web article, lets be seen to do something positive towards all editions. |
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Elminster's Forgotten Realms
