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Apex
Learned Scribe
USA
229 Posts |
 Posted - 20 Oct 2012 : 22:21:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Razz
quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
I'd love it if WOTC would decide that kind of information makes for good web articles, however.
A web article would perfectly be suitable, I will agree there. But to have no mechanics ever is just plain silly, IMO.
Let me put it this way. Had WOTC put in 4ed mechanics I (and likely many others) would not have purchased the book. What makes this book great is that it truly is edition neutral since there are no stats at all taking space away from the great lore. I also love how even though the book is supposedly useful to all era's, it is quite apparent from the information that the primary date of the book is somewhere from 1353-1358DR. |
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arry
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
317 Posts |
Posted - 20 Oct 2012 : 22:43:24
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Hoondatha, thank you for posting those snippets. As judging from what other posters have said, they are a representative sample of the book, I have decided to order it. (I don't have a FLGS nearby, so I have to rely on others' opinions.)
I am annoyed with WotC's marketing but I think I shall deal with it in future by ignoring it completly and relying on posters' experiences. |
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farinal
Learned Scribe
Turkey
270 Posts |
Posted - 20 Oct 2012 : 22:57:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Hoondatha
Old Man Harpell, I think the best way to answer your question is to fair use a couple of small quotes from the book which are typical of the way times after the 1350's are dealt with.
From Drinks of Choice - Coffee: "The Bedine of Anauroch call coffee "qahwa" or just "qaw," and they trade little in it. Since the reappearance of Shade, the surviving Bedine cosume almost all of their qaw themselves. Through the machinations of the D'tarig, a tiny trickle of Bedine beans formerly reached Zhentil Keep..."
Interesting. Coffee is called "kahve" in Turkish. Very similar to "qahwa" as in pronounciation. Which is I'm pretty sure a loanword from Arabic. |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 20 Oct 2012 : 23:06:08
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quote:
Originally posted by farinal
quote:
Originally posted by Hoondatha
Old Man Harpell, I think the best way to answer your question is to fair use a couple of small quotes from the book which are typical of the way times after the 1350's are dealt with.
From Drinks of Choice - Coffee: "The Bedine of Anauroch call coffee "qahwa" or just "qaw," and they trade little in it. Since the reappearance of Shade, the surviving Bedine cosume almost all of their qaw themselves. Through the machinations of the D'tarig, a tiny trickle of Bedine beans formerly reached Zhentil Keep..."
Interesting. Coffee is called "kahve" in Turkish. Very similar to "qahwa" as in pronounciation. Which is I'm pretty sure a loanword from Arabic.
Right on farinal...I drink coffee a great deal, and it is Arabic.  |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Seravin
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1288 Posts |
Posted - 21 Oct 2012 : 01:34:38
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How dare people take issue with a paying customer displaying a grievance at deceptive marketing? When a book is marketed as something and then comes out as something else, people are VERY MUCH ALLOWED to be upset, even if the product is still good (as it is in this case). This has nothing to do with edition wars, just fair consumer practices.
I'm very happy this book has sold so well, I definitely would not have pre-ordered it if the marketing had said it had post spellplague and return of the shade content. I suspect MANY people including myself would have waited until the reviews came in just to be sure that the book had a majority of content pre-dating ToT (it does thankfully). But because of the marketing lead me to believe it was Ed's realms at the time of the Year of the Prince, I pre-ordered it sight unseen. And I bet I'm not alone in that. Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me. I won't be pre-ordering again because I can't trust them to put out the book that the marketing says they will. I'll just trust what you guys say.
All that said:
I'm still happy with the end product, I'm very happy it has sold so well, I want more of it, perhaps focused on regions like the Volo's guides? As good as the content is, it doesn't seem to have much structure and is more a random selection of culture. Great stuff, but a bit random. More volumes could let Ed focus on an aspect (Dragons, Magic, Churches, Elves, Guilds, etc.) or regions (would kill for Moonsea or Sembia book in this flavor).
Now that we know it sold well, we can hope for sequels! What would you like to see?
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rjfras
Learned Scribe
261 Posts |
Posted - 21 Oct 2012 : 01:48:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Seravin
Now that we know it sold well, we can hope for sequels! What would you like to see?
I would love to see a book that gives much of the same kind of info but on Amn, Tethyr, Calimshan, Lapaliiya, and the Tashalar as opposed to Cormyr, the Dales and the Heartlands. Moreso, Lapaliiya and the Tashalar as we can get some of the info from Lands of Intrigue and the Calimshan books, and have almost nothing on Lapaliiya and the Tashalar.
The book did make mention of each of those in some examples of food and whatnot, but would love to see all the different things covered for those areas: events and festivals, current clack, property laws, naming, hearth and home, fashion, drinks, inns, coinage, trades goods, music from those areas, etc. |
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Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader
USA
2717 Posts |
Posted - 21 Oct 2012 : 04:52:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Hoondatha
It would be, if WotC hadn't aptly earned it over the years. There's axe-grinding, and then there are legitimate grievances sprung from deceptive marketing and lack of concern for the user base.
Well, marketing is not, and has never been, a hands-on-their-hearts promise from the seller to the buyer, and a company making decisions that don't conform to the expectations of a tiny number of people--most of them former customers--isn't the same thing as a lack of concern for the full user base.
From where I'm sitting, the phrase "deceptive marketing" doesn't apply to this book. It's a stretch, to say the least, to apply it to anything else WotC has done.
Regardless, I'm hoping for at least one more of these books. The information about Cormyr is something I can use right away in my Realms campaign. I hope to get more about the Zhentarim in the next book. |
Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver). |
Edited by - Jeremy Grenemyer on 21 Oct 2012 05:01:00 |
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Old Man Harpell
Senior Scribe
USA
495 Posts |
Posted - 22 Oct 2012 : 02:48:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Seravin
How dare people take issue with a paying customer displaying a grievance at deceptive marketing? When a book is marketed as something and then comes out as something else, people are VERY MUCH ALLOWED to be upset, even if the product is still good (as it is in this case). This has nothing to do with edition wars, just fair consumer practices.
Very well said. This is not a matter of trying to cater to a small number of customers (former or otherwise), it's a matter of business ethics. Having owned a business myself, I would never, ever have said, advertised, or marketed something I didn't mean and/or didn't intend to honor - it goes without saying that one's reputation can take a hit for things like that.
I know there is a small minority that says Wizbro can do absolutely no wrong, but if that was the case, discussions like this would never go anywhere, and it is a disservice to those that disagree out of a love of the setting to insinuate otherwise. And as Markus said in another thread, negativity (in moderation) is a good thing, as it shows people still actually care about what they're being negative about.
That being said, I do not believe there is any deceptive intent with the addition of the undesirable material - my opinion is someone just had a flash of 'reverse insight', and got it into their head that 'we had best include this material', more than likely with the honest belief that everyone would thank them for it. It didn't turn out that way, no, but I'm not going to assign a sinister motive where (I believe) it doesn't exist. I do think, however, that Wizbro didn't stop to consider how some people would react.
On the gear switch, I too, hope to see more on the Zhentarim, as they were always presented as the 'bad guys'. Plus I would like to see Ed's take on the 'undescribed' lands (Anchorome, Osse, and so on), in print for all of us to again appreciate the work of the Master.
- OMH |
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Derulbaskul
Senior Scribe
Singapore
408 Posts |
Posted - 22 Oct 2012 : 08:48:22
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How about we split this into two threads?
The first thread can be about this book which, unfortunately, I won't be seeing for a month or so because of my current Third World location.
The second thread can be filled with the usual whingeing and bitching that Candlekeep has sadly become famous for. I get it: you were deceived. The marketing was deceptive. Blah, blah, blah. |
Cheers
D
NB: Please remember: A cannon is a big gun. Canon is what we discuss here. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31773 Posts |
Posted - 22 Oct 2012 : 09:04:05
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Okay, let's try to keep things respectful folks.
The majority of us have had some time now to voice our thoughts about the relative comparisons between the marketing of the product and it's actual content.
Let's move on, eh, and discuss the great stuff that's included inside? |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Pazuzu
Seeker
Germany
61 Posts |
Posted - 22 Oct 2012 : 11:43:07
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| It seems Amazon.de didn't got anough copies for pre-orders or something else went wrong... It's out of stock now in Germany and I ordered it from NY now. Cannot wait to see it! |
May your dice obey your will. - Gary Gygax (*1938 - †2008) |
Edited by - Pazuzu on 22 Oct 2012 11:45:41 |
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see
Learned Scribe
235 Posts |
Posted - 22 Oct 2012 : 15:44:35
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A wonderful book, fully worthy of the money I spent on it, with some jarring notes that I can overlook here, but make me wary of buying future FR product.
Which, hmm, was exactly my view the last time I spent money on FR product, The Grand History of the Realms. |
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Razz
Senior Scribe
USA
749 Posts |
Posted - 23 Oct 2012 : 01:27:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Apex
quote:
Originally posted by Razz
quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
I'd love it if WOTC would decide that kind of information makes for good web articles, however.
A web article would perfectly be suitable, I will agree there. But to have no mechanics ever is just plain silly, IMO.
Let me put it this way. Had WOTC put in 4ed mechanics I (and likely many others) would not have purchased the book. What makes this book great is that it truly is edition neutral since there are no stats at all taking space away from the great lore. I also love how even though the book is supposedly useful to all era's, it is quite apparent from the information that the primary date of the book is somewhere from 1353-1358DR.
My proposal was not for 4E mechanics. My proposal was for 1e to 4e mechanics. And only for things that, I believe, need mechanics. Disease, poison, a new spell (if mentioned and has significance), etc. I'm not saying to fill a pure fluff book with a bunch of crunch. No no. About 3-5% of the book content would be fine, I think.
As for the recent topic, I personally was not sure what to expect from this book, really, other than it had Realms fluff written by Ed. I figure I'll get the book to support it, and see for myself what is in it. Then I will also have the right what to suggest to WotC for future books of this type.
So far, it's a fun read and has sparked in me a better way to run my Realms games and has offered me several kernels of adventure ideas that will grow the minute I spend time on them.
So far, it's doing it's job for me. |
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Kris the Grey
Senior Scribe
USA
422 Posts |
Posted - 24 Oct 2012 : 21:12:58
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Having just acquired my copy of the tome, I have to say that, upon scanning it's contents I am quite pleased.
It has (and I'm sure a lot of it is collected old lore as opposed to strictly new) an AMAZING assortment of detail on day to day life and customs in the Realms. This sort of living breathing minutia is EXACTLY what a DM needs to make adventuring in the Realms feel both 1) real and 2) different from 'generic' campaigning in your run of the mill 'D&D world'.
Overall it is a GREAT effort and well recommended by me to any DM or player wishing an introduction to the Realms.
That said, I am a little puzzled that it doesn't serve as more of a 'Old Grey Box' style work detailing the differences between Ed's personal Realms and the printed ones. I only say that because that is what the marketing for the product lead people to believe. Now, I'm not complaining about this, if anything it is actually MORE useful to the average Realms DM (from ANY era of play) than it would otherwise be, but I am just curious as to why it wasn't more effectively marketed as what it is, a general 'Life in the Realms' lore tome? |
Kris the Grey - Member in Good Standing of the Watchful Order of Magists and Protectors, the Arcane Guild of Silverymoon, and the Connecticut Bar Association |
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Seravin
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1288 Posts |
Posted - 24 Oct 2012 : 22:12:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Kris the Grey
That said, I am a little puzzled that it doesn't serve as more of a 'Old Grey Box' style work detailing the differences between Ed's personal Realms and the printed ones. I only say that because that is what the marketing for the product lead people to believe. Now, I'm not complaining about this, if anything it is actually MORE useful to the average Realms DM (from ANY era of play) than it would otherwise be, but I am just curious as to why it wasn't more effectively marketed as what it is, a general 'Life in the Realms' lore tome?
I'm guessing that somewhere between the initial marketing and the final editing, an executive decision was made to make the book more of an era-neutral Realms Culture book instead of Ed's homebrew.
Which is fine, as you say, it's still a great book. I think they feared a backlash if they announced they made a mistake with the marketing. Can't say I blame them for that, but it is a bit deceptive. Still, it's a great book. Though I'd also love (even more) the originally promised book of Ed's homebrew.
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Eilserus
Master of Realmslore
USA
1446 Posts |
Posted - 24 Oct 2012 : 23:34:22
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| I want to see a volume 2 where Ed says he can describe us power groups and other various things about the Realms. I'd also love to see a few updates of places, like the Dales, what's up in the Moonsea, the North etc. Isn't the Vast about due an orc horde to butcher that place back into an area of city-states etc? :) |
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Delwa
Master of Realmslore
USA
1271 Posts |
Posted - 25 Oct 2012 : 03:01:02
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Finally was able to sit down with a copy, and I am ecstatic. It was everything I'd hoped for and more, especially the "everyday life" parts.
I'm just curious.... can the recipies in the book translate to real world? I know Ed dabbles in cooking here and there... can I, say, substitute a chicken for the cockatrice? |
- Delwa Aunglor
I am off to slay yon refrigerator and spoil it's horde. Go for the cheese, Boo!
"The Realms change; seldom at the speed desired of those who strive, but far too quickly for those who resist." - The Simbul, taken from the Forgotten Realms Campaign Conspectus |
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Seravin
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1288 Posts |
Posted - 26 Oct 2012 : 16:39:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Delwa
I'm just curious.... can the recipies in the book translate to real world? I know Ed dabbles in cooking here and there... can I, say, substitute a chicken for the cockatrice?
He gave a substitute for the Stirge recipe in the footnote (I believe it was short ribs?) so I'm guessing the harder to find meats can be substituted! Volo's Guides did the same thing. |
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Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2449 Posts |
Posted - 26 Oct 2012 : 19:38:25
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| Ed is apparently quite a cook, so I wouldn't be surprised if he either based those recipes on things he'd actually made, or used his experience to whip up something that would fly on the fly. |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
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Delwa
Master of Realmslore
USA
1271 Posts |
Posted - 26 Oct 2012 : 21:24:32
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| awesome. I'll have to try those recipies then. The stirge looks apetizing. I must have missed the footnote first readthrough... :) |
- Delwa Aunglor
I am off to slay yon refrigerator and spoil it's horde. Go for the cheese, Boo!
"The Realms change; seldom at the speed desired of those who strive, but far too quickly for those who resist." - The Simbul, taken from the Forgotten Realms Campaign Conspectus |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 27 Oct 2012 : 22:09:57
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| I have it! It's a Realms sourcebook by Ed Greenwood, the first in a good long while. Just that, with few compromises. What a simple idea, what a refreshing breath of air, what a delight. |
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Alruane
Senior Scribe
USA
434 Posts |
Posted - 07 Dec 2013 : 14:44:02
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| I DESPERATELY need this. |
" I wonder if you are destined to be forgotten. Will your life fade in the shadow of greater beings?"
~Joneleth Irenicus
"Wisdom? My dear boy, wisdom is knowing that you do not know everything. Wisdom is realizing, a wise man ALWAYS has questions. Not answers."
~Alruane |
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Elminster's Forgotten Realms
