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idilippy
Senior Scribe
USA
417 Posts |
 Posted - 17 Oct 2012 : 18:21:10
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It should be reiterated that the inclusion of Cyric was really small, and in no way overshadowed any of Ed's writings. I encourage you to read for yourself, before buying if you think that it might be a dealbreaker, and see exactly what has been added about Cyric. His deity entry is on page 144, bottom left corner of the page, and goes for 14 lines. If that is the extent of the editing power that WotC will be exerting on Ed's writings in the Realms I am willing to change my attitude about the 5e realms to cautiously optimistic. And even if I never buy anything 5e, my attitude towards sequels to Elminster's Forgotten Realms is overwhelmingly positive. I'm willing to buy a volume 2 sight unseen now, I'll pre-order a sequel as soon as one is available to pre-order.
Related to that, what is the best thing I can do as a consumer to make that happen? I don't post on the WotC forums, and I've already bought the book (buying hundreds of copies to increase demand is far beyond my meager budget) and will be encouraging anyone I know who enjoys the Forgotten Realms to do so. Does WotC care about Amazon.com reviews, or emails/letters about how refreshing such a book is? I have to doubt the second would do any good, and am doubtful that reviews from fans matter much to them either compared to raw sales data, but whatever will help greenlight a second is worth doing for me. |
Edited by - idilippy on 17 Oct 2012 18:27:08 |
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Seravin
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1288 Posts |
Posted - 17 Oct 2012 : 18:28:01
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| To be fair the Cyric entry is small, but there is also a smattering of references to the Spellplague, the 1400s, Shade, etc. which I think most of us here were not expecting or desiring to be included in this work. I wanted a product where I could go back and live/breathe in the Year of the Prince. I've been fooled, which sucks. But the end product is still very good despite those inclusions. |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 17 Oct 2012 : 18:37:03
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quote:
Originally posted by Seravin
To be fair the Cyric entry is small, but there is also a smattering of references to the Spellplague, the 1400s, Shade, etc. which I think most of us here were not expecting or desiring to be included in this work. I wanted a product where I could go back and live/breathe in the Year of the Prince. I've been fooled, which sucks. But the end product is still very good despite those inclusions.
I'll go out on a limb and say I fully feel that many of these things were added after Ed turned in his work. I won't say it 100% sure; but that is my personal feeling.
The entire tone of the book feels "older" almost...and some of the things seen that are after 1357 or so feel "not quite right" the way they sit in the book...as if the fluidity of thought and writing are much rougher. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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idilippy
Senior Scribe
USA
417 Posts |
Posted - 17 Oct 2012 : 18:47:18
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| Ah, I haven't read enough in depth to see more than a couple references to the 1400s, and none about the spellplague yet. I've been reading it in bits and pieces, skipping around to stuff that is interesting or relevant to my campaigns first, rather than cover to cover. Anyways, yeah if you wanted a Grey Box type campaign guide for the Year of the Prince, this doesn't seem to be that from what I've skimmed, though most references in stuff I've seen that has reference years are pre-1350's and most of the culture/cuisine and stuff I've skimmed doesn't seem to have year references. I think Thrasy described it well in his review, a Volo's Introductory Guide to the Realms Culture. |
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Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2449 Posts |
Posted - 17 Oct 2012 : 18:49:11
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| It would be interesting to ask, though Ed might not say. Maybe we should tickle THO, and see if she'll spill instead... |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
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idilippy
Senior Scribe
USA
417 Posts |
Posted - 17 Oct 2012 : 19:03:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
I'll go out on a limb and say I fully feel that many of these things were added after Ed turned in his work. I won't say it 100% sure; but that is my personal feeling.
The entire tone of the book feels "older" almost...and some of the things seen that are after 1357 or so feel "not quite right" the way they sit in the book...as if the fluidity of thought and writing are much rougher.
Yeah, this seems to fit. I'd add that references to later than 1357 dates has (so far in my skimming) come at the end of other segments or as simple additions to otherwise complete phrases. A reference here to something being popular in the 1300s "and well into the 1400s", a standalone paragraph about nobility in Waterdeep referencing the mid 1400s that ends a 3 page section on the same subject, a bit about mercenaries in the mid 1360s, and a single reference I've seen to Princes of Shade in the midst of a long and rather useful section on Shar (even to me who has grown tired of Shar as the default goddess of Evil). |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 17 Oct 2012 : 23:58:58
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In informal chats with several of my WotC designer/developer friends, I got the impression that the book is 99% Ed, with the tiny bit of editing filtering that all authors need. I would be very surprised to learn of any passages that were added AFTER Ed turned it in. The book is meant to be era-neutral, so yeah, some of the things they talk about wont apply to all eras. It's more about how to run the Realms than a snapshot of the Realms at any given point in history.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2449 Posts |
Posted - 18 Oct 2012 : 01:15:37
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That's interesting (and a bit relieving in that Ed isn't getting over-ruled). But at the same time, it's not how the book was being marketed. From what I can remember, it was being sold as "a glimpse into Ed's Realms." And that's why a lot of us were really excited; it was a chance to see the Realms that existed from the "single chef" days. This isn't that.
Don't get me wrong, I love the book. It's got tons of great stuff, and it's the first FR product I've bought in a long, long time. And the references to 4e (or even some of the stupider 3e stuff) are sparse and easily glossed over. But it isn't what I, or I think a lot of Realms fans, were expecting when we picked it up. |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 18 Oct 2012 : 01:53:05
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Yeah, I can see the argument. WotC's marketing wing . . . Well. It is what it is.
Based on the one time I've had the honor to play in Ed's own Realms (with Ed as the DM), I can attest that this is what it feels like. This book sort of gives us a sampling of the sort of lore he would use. There really should be about 10-15 more of these.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 18 Oct 2012 : 02:04:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
Don't think even that would be enough!!
Nope, probably not. 
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Andrekan
Seeker
65 Posts |
Posted - 18 Oct 2012 : 02:17:07
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When asked for my review here is my reply because this is what the Realms needs out there right now to keep folks from focusing on Editions or Game Rules. This is The Forgotten Realms. So before you think you are going to spend your hard earned coins on something this is my overview. So go out and buy them all! I need more books like this to read:
Really enjoying the read. There is a lot of information on the Day to Day life within the Realms. Gives a great extensive look into many of Ed's writings and creative hand drawn maps and notes. There are some nice highlights on the Gods, heh heh, but I believe from what I have read, this is an over view of the Realms not so much a specific time period but as I said an overview.
That said, Realmspeak is the most fun reading I have done filling my mind with wonderful phrases to use by my NPC's and my characters. The book also gives flashes of lore covering Nobility DR 1200, 1400's, and many more flashes as the subject matter needs here and there for detail references.
The General Flavor that it is giving to all of the Realms and thus far it gives a view of how it might feel, to drop into the Realms and spend a week or a month. It is not a book of rules, graphs, and charts, but more of a reference into life within the Realms: how folk think, foods, fashion, class, nobility, various laws (trade and glimpse into areas), entertainment, festivals, literature, medicine, illness and hygiene, drugs and poisons, economics, coinage, trade, slavery, how religions is viewed and used. The Art (Magic) Alchemy, Bardic Matters, Elven Music, Spellsong, Special Bloodlines, oh and More Magic.
Really fun reading thus far churning the creative juices in my mind.
I believe by my reading this book and another person reading this, our games in the realms will generally have a similar feel more so than just our stats of monsters, magic items, power groups, city names, spells, and deities. There might be more of an overall similar atmosphere between our games.
The cities and villages might end up having similar customs or festivals that the NPC's look forward to or prepare for all year long. This book covers general modes of thinking over all the Realms. This also works for your characters where before you might have similar skills and language now your character might be more familiar with the Literature, Music, or Fashion as the NPC's. Some sections remind me of compiled history to inform the reader rather than overwhelm them with the vast history of the Realms. This book for me makes the Realms more living and breathing than other books which focus on classes, races, magic, or monsters. It seems more down to earth so to speak.
Details about perfumes, equipment, spices, toys, crafts, design, coinage, and general basics of guilds may not be important in everyone's game but it sure gives weight to descriptions when describing areas within your game.
So Yes, all of our past games, over the years have been right on key, but now there might be a bit more similarity as far as sociology described between various game tables all over the world when immersed in a game of Dungeons and Dragons within the Forgotten Realms. |
"Those two talk only of drink, riches, women, brawling, and magic, so ye've a one in five chance..." Quote from "Elminster in Hell" |
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Razz
Senior Scribe
USA
749 Posts |
Posted - 18 Oct 2012 : 13:22:15
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| I just hope they go this route but with Regional books. There're a lot of regions to cover still and many to update. I hope the next FR book I buy involves that. |
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arry
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
317 Posts |
Posted - 19 Oct 2012 : 13:21:55
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So rather than 'Ed Greenwood's Realms' as promised, it's been edited to conform to WotC's version of the Realms?
I'm not a happy bunny  |
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arry
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
317 Posts |
Posted - 19 Oct 2012 : 13:23:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
quote:
Originally posted by Matt James
Yeah, it's easy to get the impression that Ed didn't include Cyric in his turn over. I'm near-positive it wasn't included by his pen.
If they can edit, add, and subtract whatever they want, then he's not really in charge at all, is he? 
No; and just what I was afraid of. |
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 19 Oct 2012 : 15:08:53
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I've now had the chance to do a skim-through, though not a full read, of Elminster's Forgotten Realms.
And I decided not to buy it.
This isn't the book that was marketed to me. Some of that may be my responsibility, as I believed that they were going to offer a peek into Ed's Realms. Rather like an alternate universe version, as we know that Ed's home Realms don't contain many of the elements in the published canon Realms. But still, I don't think I was alone in this thinking, as others posting here have been disappointed as well.
It has Cyric in it, and mentions Shade as well, among other little things. It's not Edition-"Neutral" but rather Edition-"Inclusive." What's the difference, really? Well, something Edition-Neutral would be written/edited in such a way that nothing in it would bring to mind specific editions, certainly not specific events, gods, or NPCs. In this case, it's including things that I really never liked very much.
Why not buy it anyway? It has some great stuff, right? Well, for those two big reasons I mentioned above: it's not the look at Ed's Realms we were marketed, and it's edition-inclusive rather than edition-neutral.
Does Ed actually have the final stamp of approval or say on what's published from now on? I don't know, but that section on Cyric, in particular, stands out as feeling very Editor-ish and tacked on at the last moment.
Does WotC understand the difference between edition-neutral and edition-inclusive? Seems like they probably don't, and that's very disappointing. Trying to be inclusive of all -fans- is one thing, but including all editions is going to push away fans who dislike various elements that are clearly edition-specific.
Cyric is the litmus test for this book, IMO.
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Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 19 Oct 2012 : 15:55:58
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| I will buy it and most likely enjoy it, but it is a bit of a let down from what I thought we were getting. Oh, well, so much for optimism. |
No Canon, more stories, more Realms. |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6666 Posts |
Posted - 19 Oct 2012 : 16:15:30
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I think that some people need to understand what is on offer here. The book is about Ed's Realms, not Ed's home campaign. It is an illustration of all the fine detail, nuance and scope that the setting can encompass to enhance your gaming in the Realms. The implication of some scribes is that Ed's campaign is the 'real Realms' and that the WotC Realms is some malformed, offspring that should be consigned to a deep dark dungeon somewhere. Nothing could be further from the truth. The WotC Realms has brought much joy to Ed over the years, and although his own campaign doesn't mirror the 'official Realms' that is only because his players elected not to adopt those changes, not because Ed didn't like them or didn't want to adopt them. This book contains realmslore worth reading. It is the type of product that should be supported by the fanbase. It should not be used as a vehicle for yet another pointless axe-grinding Edition diatribe. You were promised Ed's Realms and you have received just that. Because guess what: Ed's Realms are just the same and just as different as your, my and everyone else's Realms.
-- George Krashos
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"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3805 Posts |
Posted - 19 Oct 2012 : 16:36:36
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quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
I think that some people need to understand what is on offer here. The book is about Ed's Realms, not Ed's home campaign. It is an illustration of all the fine detail, nuance and scope that the setting can encompass to enhance your gaming in the Realms. The implication of some scribes is that Ed's campaign is the 'real Realms' and that the WotC Realms is some malformed, offspring that should be consigned to a deep dark dungeon somewhere. Nothing could be further from the truth. The WotC Realms has brought much joy to Ed over the years, and although his own campaign doesn't mirror the 'official Realms' that is only because his players elected not to adopt those changes, not because Ed didn't like them or didn't want to adopt them. This book contains realmslore worth reading. It is the type of product that should be supported by the fanbase. It should not be used as a vehicle for yet another pointless axe-grinding Edition diatribe. You were promised Ed's Realms and you have received just that. Because guess what: Ed's Realms are just the same and just as different as your, my and everyone else's Realms.
-- George Krashos
Not to say that this kind of books shouldn't be supported (I plan to buy it myself as soon as I can, as it sounds an awesome read, something that I -personally- haven't had for some time when it comes to the FR), but I specifically remember that the book was presented as some sort of organized collection of Ed's home setting notes (someone at D&D XP said something like ''We basically went to Ed and said hey, why don't you take all your campaign notes, all the information you've been putting together for your FR campaign and lets compile it into a book. Show us the realms as you've developed it in your campaign setting and lets get that to everybody. It's our celebration of the Forgotten Realms and pulling back the curtain to show you what the designer of the campaign setting has done."). So yeah, unless Ed home campaign has the SpellPlague and stuff in it, this is not what WotC marketed. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 19 Oct 2012 16:38:37 |
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Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2449 Posts |
Posted - 19 Oct 2012 : 16:46:54
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Agreed. That's what this book was being marketed as.
And please remember that I have said on multiple occasions this week that I like the book, and that there is a lot of interesting and new stuff in it. But it isn't what WotC was marketing it as. It isn't, as that WotC staffer (and I remember reading the same thing) was saying: let's do a bunch of scanning and retyping of your original notes and show everyone what the Realms they love grew out of. |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 19 Oct 2012 : 16:56:15
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quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
I think that some people need to understand what is on offer here. The book is about Ed's Realms, not Ed's home campaign. It is an illustration of all the fine detail, nuance and scope that the setting can encompass to enhance your gaming in the Realms. The implication of some scribes is that Ed's campaign is the 'real Realms' and that the WotC Realms is some malformed, offspring that should be consigned to a deep dark dungeon somewhere. Nothing could be further from the truth. The WotC Realms has brought much joy to Ed over the years, and although his own campaign doesn't mirror the 'official Realms' that is only because his players elected not to adopt those changes, not because Ed didn't like them or didn't want to adopt them. This book contains realmslore worth reading. It is the type of product that should be supported by the fanbase. It should not be used as a vehicle for yet another pointless axe-grinding Edition diatribe. You were promised Ed's Realms and you have received just that. Because guess what: Ed's Realms are just the same and just as different as your, my and everyone else's Realms.
-- George Krashos
I see, because it wasn't what I expected and believed I was getting based on the marketing, it's just another "pointless axe-grinding Edition diatribe."
How about you really sit down and re-assess what you are saying, and why? When fans dislike something, and let designers/contributors know, they are taking valuable time out of their day to point out exactly why something wasn't purchased. They are letting designers/contributors know what they -would- purchase.
So instead of seeing other viewers as useless "diatribe" and engaging in "pointless axe-grinding" it might serve you and this forum better to see it as it's intended. Because at the end of the day, regardless of what a small set of designers want, they really do need to listen to every customer. Otherwise you'll be happy with creating a product that you like but potentially customers don't.
I'm not so egocentric to believe that I should personally guide the Realms or determine its fate, otherwise I'd be just as guilty as the design team of 4E. I do believe, that since WotC wants feedback, we should tell them and others our honest opinions. My one "vote" only counts if I express it.
So this is not just axe-grinding and pointless diatribe. I resent that you're re-casting it in that light, and I find it disturbing that it's now acceptable to utterly dismiss someone based on their critique or expression of dislike. Erik Scott de Bie wonders why I feel like I'm not being heard or listened to. Well, it's because of things like this: the casual dismissiveness of replies like yours here.
This... trend... of everyone feeling that it's okay to dismiss any criticism or dislike of Realms products, it really needs to stop. Or you're going to end up with a progressively diminishing fanbase and wonder why people aren't buying certain products.
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Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
Edited by - Therise on 19 Oct 2012 16:58:04 |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4438 Posts |
Posted - 19 Oct 2012 : 17:23:17
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This is the descripton on the Wizard's site:
"This 160-page hardcover book describes the campaign setting as it lives and breathes in the imagination of its creator. Through the alter ego of Elminster, Archmage of Shadowdale, Ed Greenwood presents the Realms as a setting where companies of crazed adventurers are born and have rich lives, and where they get to call the shots. In this book, Ed presents a world where friendships are forged, endless intrigues unfold, and heroes wage war against the monstrous inhabitants of famous dungeons and untamed wildernesses."
I'm not really sure where people got the impression that this book is supposed to have all this stuff cut out from or greatly distance itself from the Realms as we've been seeing it for 20+ years? Also, I'm assuming that Ed wrote most of this himself, so shouldn't he be gettin grip and not really WotC for having elements like the Time of Troubles and Spellplague?
As for reading people's *ahem* negative posts here, seems like buisness as usual. People want change, so it changes and they complain. People want Ed's writing, so they get Ed's writing and they complain. People want a new edition, so they get a new edition and they complain. Yep seems like the usual Wash, rinse, repeat cycle we've been hearing for so long now.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 19 Oct 2012 : 17:58:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Therise
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
I think that some people need to understand what is on offer here. The book is about Ed's Realms, not Ed's home campaign. It is an illustration of all the fine detail, nuance and scope that the setting can encompass to enhance your gaming in the Realms. The implication of some scribes is that Ed's campaign is the 'real Realms' and that the WotC Realms is some malformed, offspring that should be consigned to a deep dark dungeon somewhere. Nothing could be further from the truth. The WotC Realms has brought much joy to Ed over the years, and although his own campaign doesn't mirror the 'official Realms' that is only because his players elected not to adopt those changes, not because Ed didn't like them or didn't want to adopt them. This book contains realmslore worth reading. It is the type of product that should be supported by the fanbase. It should not be used as a vehicle for yet another pointless axe-grinding Edition diatribe. You were promised Ed's Realms and you have received just that. Because guess what: Ed's Realms are just the same and just as different as your, my and everyone else's Realms.
-- George Krashos
I see, because it wasn't what I expected and believed I was getting based on the marketing, it's just another "pointless axe-grinding Edition diatribe."
How about you really sit down and re-assess what you are saying, and why? When fans dislike something, and let designers/contributors know, they are taking valuable time out of their day to point out exactly why something wasn't purchased. They are letting designers/contributors know what they -would- purchase.
So instead of seeing other viewers as useless "diatribe" and engaging in "pointless axe-grinding" it might serve you and this forum better to see it as it's intended. Because at the end of the day, regardless of what a small set of designers want, they really do need to listen to every customer. Otherwise you'll be happy with creating a product that you like but potentially customers don't.
I'm not so egocentric to believe that I should personally guide the Realms or determine its fate, otherwise I'd be just as guilty as the design team of 4E. I do believe, that since WotC wants feedback, we should tell them and others our honest opinions. My one "vote" only counts if I express it.
So this is not just axe-grinding and pointless diatribe. I resent that you're re-casting it in that light, and I find it disturbing that it's now acceptable to utterly dismiss someone based on their critique or expression of dislike. Erik Scott de Bie wonders why I feel like I'm not being heard or listened to. Well, it's because of things like this: the casual dismissiveness of replies like yours here.
This... trend... of everyone feeling that it's okay to dismiss any criticism or dislike of Realms products, it really needs to stop. Or you're going to end up with a progressively diminishing fanbase and wonder why people aren't buying certain products.
I don't think Krash was singling you out, in particular. And it is true that some people in this thread have said they are not interested in this book purely because it includes some content that is more relevant to 4E. That makes it an edition-based complaint, and that's what Krash was replying to. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 19 Oct 2012 18:00:53 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 19 Oct 2012 : 18:05:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
As for reading people's *ahem* negative posts here, seems like buisness as usual. People want change, so it changes and they complain. People want Ed's writing, so they get Ed's writing and they complain. People want a new edition, so they get a new edition and they complain. Yep seems like the usual Wash, rinse, repeat cycle we've been hearing for so long now.
I don't think that this goes in a better direction. Whatever the nature of someone's complaints, framing them in this manner is very dismissive of those complaints. It's not unreasonable to be unpleasantly surprised by content from eras that we had no reason to expect would be in this book. Knowing that Ed's Realms haven't gotten to the Time of Troubles makes it quite reasonable to assume that this book won't have references to Shade and Cyric. Someone seeing that when the description said we'd see Ed's Realms has valid grounds for complaint. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2449 Posts |
Posted - 19 Oct 2012 : 18:14:48
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For anyone who's curious about where we were getting the expectations that the book didn't entirely fulfill, check out the WotC quote in the post announcing the product.
http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=16156
"... all your campaign notes, all the information you've been putting together for your FR campaign" to me sounds like "Ed's original campaign," what I've occasionally called the "single chef days."
Now, we can argue whether or not what we got is a good book (IMO it is), or if it gives us lore we've never had before (again, IMO it does), but looking at that product announcement I'm not sure how it's possible for someone to argue that it isn't the book that they were promising.
(cross-posted in the other product thread) |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
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Eilserus
Master of Realmslore
USA
1446 Posts |
Posted - 19 Oct 2012 : 18:30:11
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Here's what Ed had to say about the book in his thread: "Thank you! I had a lot of fun working on this book, though the project had the usual too short a time to generate too many words, then a hiccup where it was shortened to 160 pages . . . and then it expanded to 192 pages again.
All of which complicated the captions a little. :}
Here's the thing: part of writing a game book for Wizards is generating an art order. Usually with editorial direction as to how much art, "line style" preferences as to size of art, how many must be previously published (if any) versus brand-new, and so on.
Because of the shifting length of the book, and its gorgeous (but developing, after I'd made the art order deadline) layout and design, the number of pieces of art (and the length that would fit of their captions) kept changing.
So, yes, I wrote almost all of the captions, several times, and Kim Mohan (the veteran editor who first "hired" me as a Contributing Editor for DRAGON, all those years ago) had to prune and rewrite some of them, or work with me on doing so to some of them.
Some of the captions went with existing art ("pick up" this art piece from a DDI article or a previously-published D&DŽ sourcebook), but most of them went with new art (which if they were header pieces, lost their captions so the explanation for this or that scene had to be worked into the text of the section the header went with). It was all great fun, except for the keeping the captions short part. You see, I didn't want to write smart aleck captions as much as I wanted to shoehorn new lore into those captions - - but there just wasn't space. The first drafts of the captions usually had both, in a "long" version and a short version (that itself usually turned out to be too long). :}
Here's fervently hoping that I get to write a LOT of these. There's so much more of the Realms I want to show everyone.
And I'm sorry that what most gamers got told would be in the book wasn't what someone else had already approved as the contents. With that change in length happening in the middle of the writing. But . . . life happens.
Here's the next thing: there's no way I can ever "show you my campaign" in a sourcebook. The book would have to be about 7000 pages long, for one thing, and for another: my superb players choose where their characters will go and what their characters will do, and I just keep the subplots swirling around them (and some of those subplots stretch for literal decades, while others are petty little things that if put into a book would irk some gamers [["I paid for THIS?"]]).
What I can do is describe the aims and interests of various power groups, large and small, and some of the larger-scope unfolding subplots . . . and I hope I get the opportunity to do so, if not in another sourcebook, then in webcolumns. Believe me, I would LOVE to do more of these. Except for the "icky feel" cover, I am just delighted with how this turned out (although OF COURSE I would like it to have head more pages), and itch to write more, more, more of them.
However, that will only happen if enough gamers buy, buy, buy copies of the book, earning much revenue for Wizards. So (ahem), if you know anyone who likes to have a copy of a book for each room in their house . . ."
The big thing for me was towards the bottom where he said: "What I can do is describe the aims and interests of various power groups, large and small, and some of the larger-scope unfolding subplots."
And seeing books with this type of detail with power groups and other Realms-ish things can only be done if enough of us buy this tome and support it. I don't believe in the history of wizards publishing we have EVER seen this type of intricate detail of Realms life in one book. If we want this to keep going, we need to support it. And I know for one I'd surely buy a volume 2, because the first one was very good. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 19 Oct 2012 : 18:38:34
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My feelings are this (not having read it yet - my copy is on order) -
It is deifinitely worth buying, and it definitely does fulfill the promises, if not the expectations. WotC cannot be faulted because we were hoping for something else/more.
That being said, I wish it was a bit more like the Volo's guides. However, I think of this as a test product, and if it sells well, we may yet see new versions of Volo-like tomes.
So buy it and enjoy it, and buy copies for everyone you know. The more we buy, the more of this we are going to get, and it will only get better.*
*And by 'better' I mean more detail, not quality. The quality is already there. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 19 Oct 2012 18:39:19 |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4438 Posts |
Posted - 19 Oct 2012 : 18:39:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
As for reading people's *ahem* negative posts here, seems like buisness as usual. People want change, so it changes and they complain. People want Ed's writing, so they get Ed's writing and they complain. People want a new edition, so they get a new edition and they complain. Yep seems like the usual Wash, rinse, repeat cycle we've been hearing for so long now.
I don't think that this goes in a better direction. Whatever the nature of someone's complaints, framing them in this manner is very dismissive of those complaints. It's not unreasonable to be unpleasantly surprised by content from eras that we had no reason to expect would be in this book. Knowing that Ed's Realms haven't gotten to the Time of Troubles makes it quite reasonable to assume that this book won't have references to Shade and Cyric. Someone seeing that when the description said we'd see Ed's Realms has valid grounds for complaint.
There was little reason to expect only narrow viewpoint from the product decription and, now from Hoondatha's post, Gen-Con's description of what the book was supposed to be about. I didn't know about Ed's campaign? I didn't know what era it's gone up to? For someone who enjoys playing in a post-Time of Troubles or post-Spellplague era, this book might've been seen as nigh useless to those player bases. So it seems sorta silly not to include a big portion of the fanbase by printing a book that only goes to X-time and then suddently stops.
What I think happend is that many posters here hoped it provided all these changes (non-canon ones) to the Realms they could plop over existing lore. That becuse it came from Ed, it would hold more water and thus, make more sense than what the designrs have been churning out the past X-amount of years. All the wishing and hoping it was an alternative timeline to what we saw actually happen is where I think the supposed "marketing" came from. I myself thought it was going to be an alternative timeline that sort of went against published material and decided not to buy it before it even came out. Yet my perception of the book came from the people posting here and not the actual description on the Wiz-bro site (which I admit is a bit vague).
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Elminster's Forgotten Realms
