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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
 Posted - 08 Oct 2012 : 06:41:23
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I doubt you'll find many people who are completely happy with any edition. I'm probably the biggest 4e fanboy on this forum, at least the most vocal in defense of it, and there are certainly parts I disagree with.
The deaths aren't really part of it, though. I think it was a good time to clear the way for some new blood in the realms, but that's just my opinion. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
The Roleplayer's Gazebo;
http://theroleplayersgazebo.yuku.com/directory#.Ub4hvvlJOAY |
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Sightless
Senior Scribe
USA
608 Posts |
Posted - 08 Oct 2012 : 07:28:30
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From what I've found out thus far, and there's a lot I don't know, I don't quite like what they did with the Gods killing off and combining thing. I don't mind the idea of Gods having multiple aspects to themselves, like certain gods are actually one, but I think they might have gone a little too far with it. I don't have an issue with the majority of the character deaths I've heard about though. Oh, and I really dislike what they've done with Thay.
So far that's my complaints with 4e. I really didn't have any with 3.5, and most of my 2e complaints are more related to layout, and can be delt with if you simply ignore racal restrictions. Yes, this is my official stance so far, as I learn more about 4e it might change, but I doubt it. |
We choose to live a lie, when we see with, & not through the eye.
Every decision, no matter the evidence, is a leap of faith; if it were not, then it wouldn't be a choice at all. |
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 08 Oct 2012 : 11:02:03
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I'm actually a big fan of what they did with Thay. In my mind Thay represented everything that was wrong with the realms- it was a place that everyone knew was evil and wanted to take over the world...so whenever they made a move, everyone would get together to stop them, so they would never accomplish anything outside their own borders. The most interesting thing happening with Thay was how some of the red wizards were turning to trade and mercantile persuits rather than conquest, and that's still going on in 4e, they just aren't based out of Thay anymore.
As for the killing off of gods, how far is too far ultimately comes down to a matter of taste- for the most part I think the decisions they made were good, and there are still plenty of deities in my opinion, but I can certainly see why others would disagree with that opinion. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
The Roleplayer's Gazebo;
http://theroleplayersgazebo.yuku.com/directory#.Ub4hvvlJOAY |
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Sightless
Senior Scribe
USA
608 Posts |
Posted - 08 Oct 2012 : 11:14:33
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It's not the whole we're going to take over the world thing, it's the whole it's mostly an undead playground and the land from the description sounds like someone read something about Vlad the impaler and then saw the Lord of the Rings, and put the to together.
All right that's a bit of a stretch, but you kinda of get my drift, it seems too elementary to me. Like they're bitting the fact that Thay is the bad guys over our heads, like we didn't get it before. |
We choose to live a lie, when we see with, & not through the eye.
Every decision, no matter the evidence, is a leap of faith; if it were not, then it wouldn't be a choice at all. |
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 08 Oct 2012 : 11:23:27
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To me it was already painfully obvious that Thay were the badguys, I just didn't see them as being any kind of a threat because everyone saw them as a threat and were prepared to counter them.
And when you get into that situation you do one of two things- you either make them not badguys anymore, or you make them do something to prove they're still a threat. They kinda did both, with the red wizard merchants still hanging around, but Thay being this huge undead playground and Szass Tam really cutting loose as one of the big bads of the setting(in a mortal sense) really brings Thay into relevance again as a serious threat to its neighbors and the world at large. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
The Roleplayer's Gazebo;
http://theroleplayersgazebo.yuku.com/directory#.Ub4hvvlJOAY |
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Light
Learned Scribe
Australia
231 Posts |
Posted - 08 Oct 2012 : 17:13:07
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quote:
Originally posted by Tanthalas
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
Like I said, I'm not speaking for Bob or trying to imply his motivation went one way or another. Just that if I were in his situation, I would have preferred to kill my own characters before casting them adrift in a tumultuous wave of change.
Cheers
I'd rather you guys just let them die of old age for once. :(
I would rather they die pitifully. A single goblin getting a lucky fatal strike. A trio of beggars mugging (and killing) them. Would be nice for a change. |
"A true warrior needs no sword" - Thors (Vinland Saga) |
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jornan
Learned Scribe
Canada
256 Posts |
Posted - 09 Oct 2012 : 22:39:19
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| My only real issue with 4th edition was the 100 year time jump. It was a stupid idea and basically made authors either come up with ways to allow their characters to live or they just died with no end to their story. Furthermore, what was intended as a "new beginning" for new readers just muddied the waters more and lead to authors having to explain the 100 year jump and the spellplague instead of just writing the story. You can't just ignore everything that came before and expect it to still be the realms or expect long time fans to still care because the lore and continuity is part of the draw of the realms and shared world fiction in general. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 10 Oct 2012 : 00:06:22
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At this point, I'd have to agree. Everything else (rules, continuity changes, Spellplague, etc) all could have eventually been accepted, but the century was the real deal-breaker.
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"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Sightless
Senior Scribe
USA
608 Posts |
Posted - 10 Oct 2012 : 00:21:19
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[quote]Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus
I'm actually a big fan of what they did with Thay. In my mind Thay represented everything that was wrong with the realms- it was a place that everyone knew was evil and wanted to take over the world...so whenever they made a move, everyone would get together to stop them, so they would never accomplish anything outside their own borders. The most interesting thing happening with Thay was how some of the red wizards were turning to trade and mercantile persuits rather than conquest, and that's still going on in 4e, they just aren't based out of Thay anymore.
Oh, I get that and am fine with it, all of it really, it's just that well... there's a better way to say this, but the whole description of Thay as this dead land covered in darkness, etc,etc, as it's described in the 4e pFR players guide, just seems like, old and dune. I mean why not have a perfectly vibrant land with growth and population and so forth, and still have everything rung by those lowyal to the extremly powerful lich? I like that he took power, the writing was on the wall for that, I like that Thay is a threat, I rather like that the Symbol isn't around to stop them every time they make a move into that nations boarders. I guess what I'm trying to say, there's almost something Aqunaso about it, but that's maybe just me. |
We choose to live a lie, when we see with, & not through the eye.
Every decision, no matter the evidence, is a leap of faith; if it were not, then it wouldn't be a choice at all. |
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Euranna
Learned Scribe
USA
219 Posts |
Posted - 10 Oct 2012 : 00:27:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
At this point, I'd have to agree. Everything else (rules, continuity changes, Spellplague, etc) all could have eventually been accepted, but the century was the real deal-breaker.
The more I think about it, the more I agree with this. I am not happy with a lot of the 4e changes (I love my plethora of gods dammit), but I could have more readily accepted most of the changes if everything was not just sped past into history. I think being able to "live" this RSE would have made it more palatable.
Thank you Markustay for laying it out there so clearly. :D |
Edited by - Euranna on 10 Oct 2012 02:30:31 |
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Seravin
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1274 Posts |
Posted - 10 Oct 2012 : 01:59:46
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| The timejump was ridiculous. But if they open the timeline up this will solve much. |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 10 Oct 2012 : 03:28:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Euranna
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
At this point, I'd have to agree. Everything else (rules, continuity changes, Spellplague, etc) all could have eventually been accepted, but the century was the real deal-breaker.
The more I think about it, the more I agree with this. I am not happy with a lot of the 4e changes (I love my plethora of gods dammit), but I could have more readily accepted most of the changes if everything was not just sped past into history. I think being able to "live" this RSE would have made it more palatable.
Thank you Markustay for laying it out there so clearly. :D
I loved my plethora of gods too. I've said several times that I am a huge gods fan, and likely in the minority of those who liked their more direct involvement. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 10 Oct 2012 : 03:38:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Seravin
The timejump was ridiculous. But if they open the timeline up this will solve much.
A great many of us are working very hard to see that exactly this happens. So let's please stop grousing about what has been done and instead talk about what should be done next.
If folks really want to see that 100 years of silence filled in, start another thread about it, post on Candlekeep and the WotC forums.
Let's not clutter up every thread ever with how much we dislike something that we currently have the opportunity to fix.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 10 Oct 2012 : 03:42:54
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| @Erik: if we have thoughts/suggestions that we want to share, are we more likely to be listened to (for lack of a better word) if we post it on Candlekeep or on WotC forums? I haven't been on the latter much since I primarily read the novels and don't play D&D often. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 11 Oct 2012 : 17:54:53
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@CD: WotC has people that check both, but I think you're more likely to be heard on the WotC forums.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 11 Oct 2012 : 21:31:54
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| All right, thanks, I should probably make my case there then too ^^; |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Seravin
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1274 Posts |
Posted - 12 Oct 2012 : 04:16:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
quote:
Originally posted by Seravin
The timejump was ridiculous. But if they open the timeline up this will solve much.
A great many of us are working very hard to see that exactly this happens. So let's please stop grousing about what has been done and instead talk about what should be done next.
If folks really want to see that 100 years of silence filled in, start another thread about it, post on Candlekeep and the WotC forums.
Let's not clutter up every thread ever with how much we dislike something that we currently have the opportunity to fix.
Cheers
Please don't ever call my posts "clutter" especially when those posts are 1 line long specifically responding to a topic already being discussed in the thread by many other posters. In this case I was trying to encourage people that the timejump doesn't kill the Realms if the timeline is opened and sourcebooks/novels can be set before the realms was nearly murdered (MY OPINION and many others) by the 4th edition jump.
If you don't care for my posts expressing my opinions on the time jump, please don't read or respond to them. I have certainly learned to do that with your novels.
Snarky rebuttal aside, I am happy for you and anyone else that helps open the timeline up. If we can't do a reboot to "Ed Greenwood's Forgotten Realms" (the only WoTC sourcebook I'll have bought since the 3rd edition) then opening the timeline is the best of a bad situation. And I thank you and everyone who works to that end.
Cheers! |
Edited by - Seravin on 12 Oct 2012 04:28:08 |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 12 Oct 2012 : 18:13:48
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I apologize for inadvertently offending you, Seravin. I didn't mean to call your posts "clutter" (I never thought they were). I reacted poorly to your very short post which seemed mostly a condemnation and wanted to urge positivity. I apologize for my poor choice of words and lack of clarity.
My intention here was to diffuse an impending dogpile of "I agree--the timeline jump was stupid!" That shuts down communication with WotC. They know 4e FR didn't work, and they're actively working to fix it. Kicking them when they're down just makes them not listen to you, and we need every voice--yours most definitely included.
While you and I might not always agree, I have nothing but respect for your voice and opinions, and we have at least one thing in common: we both love the Realms and want to see it ascendent as it should be.
It's all about changing the message. The attitude should not be "4e messed things up!" (because clearly it did--no one is debating that). Instead, what we should be saying is "open up the timeline! tell more stories!"
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
Edited by - Erik Scott de Bie on 12 Oct 2012 18:15:42 |
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RyanATX
Acolyte
USA
6 Posts |
Posted - 16 Oct 2012 : 18:58:48
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
I apologize for inadvertently offending you, Seravin. I didn't mean to call your posts "clutter" (I never thought they were). I reacted poorly to your very short post which seemed mostly a condemnation and wanted to urge positivity. I apologize for my poor choice of words and lack of clarity.
My intention here was to diffuse an impending dogpile of "I agree--the timeline jump was stupid!" That shuts down communication with WotC. They know 4e FR didn't work, and they're actively working to fix it. Kicking them when they're down just makes them not listen to you, and we need every voice--yours most definitely included.
While you and I might not always agree, I have nothing but respect for your voice and opinions, and we have at least one thing in common: we both love the Realms and want to see it ascendent as it should be.
It's all about changing the message. The attitude should not be "4e messed things up!" (because clearly it did--no one is debating that). Instead, what we should be saying is "open up the timeline! tell more stories!"
Cheers
Well said! I love the graciousness displayed in this response. I need to check out one of your novels... |
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jornan
Learned Scribe
Canada
256 Posts |
Posted - 16 Oct 2012 : 22:15:37
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Just read this interview on reddit and here is an interesting excerpt about the future of the Companions of the Hall and what the Sundering means:
Q: In "The Ghost king" You decided to kill off Catti-Brie and Regis. Honestly I found this unexpected, and was actually saddened by it. So I was wondering why you chose to go this way, what was your motivation to do this? Do you plan on having them make a comeback? Maybe as a side-story?
Also I loved the Sellswords Trilogy, Artimis and Jarlaxle are two of my favorite characters. Do you ever plan on reuniting them in another trilogy, or side-story?
permalink
[–]RASalvatore[S] 13 points 18 days ago
The Forgotten Realms is not my world. If I want to play in WotC's sandbox, I have to go along with their decisions. When they decided to advance the world 100 years, I had to follow.
It caused great distress - for Ed Greenwood too, I might add. So we talked about it and decided on two things:
We'd take it as an opportunity to grow our protagonists in unexpected ways.
We'd play the long game. We'd either outsmart or simply outlast the designers...
Welcome to The Sundering.
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Tanthalas
Senior Scribe
Portugal
508 Posts |
Posted - 16 Oct 2012 : 23:31:19
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So basically, it really looks like all the Companions of the Hall are coming back then.
Oh well, I can't say that I'm thrilled by that development, but hopefully th book will change my mind. |
Sir Markham pointed out, drinking another brandy. "A chap who can point at you and say 'die' has the distinct advantage". |
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jornan
Learned Scribe
Canada
256 Posts |
Posted - 17 Oct 2012 : 03:04:16
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If this is the case I too will be slightly disappointed. I just was the Drizzt books to take on new places, themes, and enemies.
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 17 Oct 2012 : 05:11:38
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| They can have those things while still including the old. I mean, Drizzt is there after all! And it turns out Entreri is still around (and hopefully Jarlaxle and Valas appear again. I'd still like to know just where Zak's spirit is. I'm not asking for him to come back to life, but since remembering his spirit came to Drizzt and said it was in a good place, I'd like to know what "place" that is, but anyway), I see no reason why the other Companions can't be there either, but that's just me. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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jornan
Learned Scribe
Canada
256 Posts |
Posted - 17 Oct 2012 : 21:55:17
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| I would much rather see Zaknafein be in Iruldoon and come back from the dead with the Sundering than ANY of the dead CotH. Even Cadderly coming back would be better than the CotH. I'm by no means a heter, but I am satisfied with all of their lives and deaths. Some had better and more fullfilling deaths than others, but death isn't always supposed to be meaningful or chosen...sometimes it just happens and in ways that are random and senseless. |
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charger_ss24
Learned Scribe
USA
108 Posts |
Posted - 18 Oct 2012 : 00:45:42
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quote:
Originally posted by jornan
I would much rather see Zaknafein be in Iruldoon and come back from the dead with the Sundering than ANY of the dead CotH. Even Cadderly coming back would be better than the CotH. I'm by no means a heter, but I am satisfied with all of their lives and deaths. Some had better and more fullfilling deaths than others, but death isn't always supposed to be meaningful or chosen...sometimes it just happens and in ways that are random and senseless.
For the most part, I share your views on these individuals. Just not sure about Zak. I think we'll see Zak again before Drizzt's life is all said and done. As for Cadderly, he deserves much better, though I don't think he has a problem keeping the Ghost King at bay for all of eternity. This Sundering could make anything happen, being such a powerful mortal as he was, I would like to see Cadderly get his just due and achieve a bit of divinity, perhaps even be the right-hand man of Denier.
Just my $3.55 worth in gas.  |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 18 Oct 2012 : 04:59:15
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The idea of him being in Iruldoon is a good one, but RAS should have mentioned it, IMO. Still, there is room for the possibilty. I would not be adverse to Zak coming to Drizzt at the end of his life and taking him to the respective afterlife, saying something like "welcome son". I love Drizzt, but I sometimes get the impression RAS is getting tired of writing about him. He'll probably kill him off sometime *sniffles* but it'd be nice if he was reunited with both his father and CotH. Maybe that's asking too much, but I am a complete sap and like my fluffy endings (though that rarely happens). Still, I would like him to see Zak again (and in a good place). They both deserve it.
I was angered by Cadderly's death, and I agree, Charger, he deserves better. Yeah, you could argue he's serving a good purpose by keeping the Ghost King at bay, but...meh. It seems like ever since Hunter's Blades trilogy, a lot of characters have been killed. A right hand of Deneir would please me, and if the Sundering, as is rumored, brings back the gods, then maybe we'll see that? Oghma could have taken Cadderly in, even.
But this is all just me crossing my fingers and being a hopeless romantic and sap. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 18 Oct 2012 : 08:30:51
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Out of all of them I think Cadderly's death was y favorite. One of my favorite themes is "no victory without sacrifice", so I liked it considerably.
I also felt that while Catti was wasted before her death(turn her into a wizard, do nothing with her), it served a purpose. She'd be dead by the timejump, regardless, and Drizzt needed to have been personally affected by the spellplague; it needed to have taken something from him. Regis, eh, that was pointless but oh well.
I'd also like to believe that Zak is currently being torn apart by spiders in the Demonweb, or slowly melting into a wall. There are consequences for not following the tenets of a god or not worshiping one at all. No good deed goes unpunished.
Over all, I'd like it if they all stay dead. The only one who I'd say didn't get a fitting death was Regis, but if suffering that is the price to pay for the rest staying dead, I can live with it.
I'd like to move on, explore new characters, new themes, life after your friends have passed on- that should be an important aspect if you're writing about an elf. He's going to outlive the people around him, just a fact of life. I don't want Drizzt getting special treatment because "its sad". Losing people you love is part of life, even in a world with ressurection spells. It's cheap, and it takes away from the quality of the story. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
The Roleplayer's Gazebo;
http://theroleplayersgazebo.yuku.com/directory#.Ub4hvvlJOAY |
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Corrupteddragon
Acolyte
USA
17 Posts |
Posted - 26 Oct 2012 : 20:20:29
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From Bob's quote it appears they are coming back. I am pretty disappointed in that actually. While I love his books, I really liked that the "endings" for some of the characters were abrupt. Sure, none of them were the picture perfect endings....but I liked that it was somewhat more "realistic" in that not every ending is happy or has a fulfilling conclusion.
Bringing them all back just sets the series back IMHO. I liked that Drizzt was forced to move onto new areas and new relationships. Now it's just going to go back to the status quo, with the same people who all just so happened to have amazing luck and beaten death. |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 27 Oct 2012 : 05:23:01
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Yes, one of the things, at least to me, is the great thing about fantasy is that the characters CAN have heroic deaths. They don't have to die in "freak accidents" or anything like so many do irl. I was disappointed by a way a lot of the characters died. Nor do I like the way Drizzt's character has progressed. I am quite aware that people change, but I do not like the change that has come over Drizzt. He's become lustful and just...drow-like hehe. But then again, Drizzt himself has speculated on this very matter. He wonders about his new thrill of battle (he's always had it to some extent, but yeah), and he is trying to make sense of his new world. I understand it, and maybe this is the direction Bob wants to go, but it does not mean I like it. Still, I will read the Drizzt books because I want to know the ending, and I still like Drizzt.
I do not like Dahlia, though. I feel sorry for her, and I think what she went through is terrible, but that does not make me like her. I do not like her character, nor do I like the affect she has had on Drizzt. I do not hate her, I just don't like her. I'd rather have the Companions of the Hall. I'm kind of glad for Entreri's return. Now, if only Jarlaxle would appear again... |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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jornan
Learned Scribe
Canada
256 Posts |
Posted - 28 Oct 2012 : 02:29:36
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| Now Jarlaxle, Drizzt, and Entreri. That would be a fun team to see together...and Zaknafien. haha |
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Still very bitter sweet...
