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SirUrza
Master of Realmslore
USA
1283 Posts |
 Posted - 27 Sep 2012 : 17:51:09
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So the Sundering has me curious. While I know it's not going to retcon the Realms back to the era I like and undo the things that drove me from the Realms, one thing that appears to be changing is what happened with the Companions of the Hall.
Perhaps I'm reading too much into what's been said, but I'd put money on their special afterlife being shattered by the sundering and them all being dumped back into Toril, alive and in their prime.
So I've begun reading the novels again to get caught up on some of what I've missed. I started with The Orc King. I honestly can't remember if I finished it, but I know it was the last novel I read, so I figured I might as well reread it. As I go through it I start remembering much of it and I'm starting to remember just why I stopped there.
Colson and Wulfgar's parting is so unsatisfying. Over the years I've checked the Realms wiki to see what's going on and find out how the Companions passed on.
Spoiler alert...
Cattie died very much how I expected considering the direction she was heading pre-spellplague. Regis had what I suspected, a surprising yet noble passing. Bruenor died how every dwarf should die.
But Wulfgar... an exile with no apparent legacy? I'll admit I'm still catching up and still in the very beginning, but Colson and Wulfgar's parting is very much bitter sweet. Perhaps I see the potential in her to be the child that Cattie and Wulfgar never had. To grow up with Wulfgar's strength and stubbornness, but with Cattie's heart. Perhaps I long to even see her run off after Drizzt on an adventure like young Cattie did.
As I said, I'm still catching up, so I don't even know if the novels tell us the fate of Colson and it's just been left out of wiki. Does she grow up to remember Wulfgar? Is he still her "Da?"
So bitter sweet. So heart breaking.
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"Evil prevails when good men fail to act."
The original and unapologetic Arilyn, Aribeth, Seoni Fanboy. |
Edited by - SirUrza on 27 Sep 2012 20:50:45
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SirUrza
Master of Realmslore
USA
1283 Posts |
Posted - 27 Sep 2012 : 20:50:23
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| BTW, you can spoil if her fate is reveal in later books or not. |
"Evil prevails when good men fail to act."
The original and unapologetic Arilyn, Aribeth, Seoni Fanboy. |
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The Red Walker
Great Reader
USA
3563 Posts |
Posted - 27 Sep 2012 : 21:45:17
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quote:
Originally posted by SirUrza
BTW, you can spoil if her fate is reveal in later books or not.
Dont remeber reading anything in any novels about Colson after Wulgar returned her to her true mother...
from his wiki(for what it's worth  )
"After returning Colson to her true mother in Auckney, Wulfgar returns to the frigid northlands of Icewind Dale, content in his decision.
In the novel Gauntlgrym, it is revealed that Wulfgar lived a very long and healthy life, having several children and grandchilden before he finally died." |
A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka
"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -
John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
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Tanthalas
Senior Scribe
Portugal
508 Posts |
Posted - 27 Sep 2012 : 22:17:24
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I'm not sure at the moment, but I think in the Drizzt short-story anthology, the new story actually tells us how Wulfgar died.
As for The Sundering "ejecting" the companions of the hall out of Iruladoon at their prime, I honestly think that would be off-putting. They really should stay dead (even if I think that both Cattie-Brie's and especially Regis' deaths were stupid).
If anything, I think there's more room to bring Cadderly back from the "dead" if with the reforging of the Tablets of Fate, Deneir also comes back.
I think that was the most annoying thing with the Ghost King, the way that Salvatore fealt the need to write off so many of his characters. |
Sir Markham pointed out, drinking another brandy. "A chap who can point at you and say 'die' has the distinct advantage". |
Edited by - Tanthalas on 27 Sep 2012 22:17:45 |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 27 Sep 2012 : 22:40:56
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quote:
Originally posted by Tanthalas
I think that was the most annoying thing with the Ghost King, the way that Salvatore fealt the need to write off so many of his characters.
I'm not speaking from any particular position of knowledge on this subject (having never spoken to Bob about the issue). I'm only (as ever) speaking for myself.
I'd be wary of ascribing a particular motivation to any author, particularly as regards character death. Keep in mind that killing off characters in a tie-in fiction novel is not always strictly an author's choice, but has much to do with the demands of the IP. If presented with the choice of "either you resolve the fates of your characters or we're going to kill them ourselves," I understand and highly respect an author wanting to deal with them himself.
Like I said, I'm not speaking for Bob or trying to imply his motivation went one way or another. Just that if I were in his situation, I would have preferred to kill my own characters before casting them adrift in a tumultuous wave of change.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 27 Sep 2012 : 23:25:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
Like I said, I'm not speaking for Bob or trying to imply his motivation went one way or another. Just that if I were in his situation, I would have preferred to kill my own characters before casting them adrift in a tumultuous wave of change.
Cheers
If I may ask, I'd like to know the reason of this. I mean, while killing a character shuts him/her down (unless he/she is brought back, ofc), leaving his/her fate after the wave of change unknown would leave many doors open for further development, if wished by the author or allowed by the company. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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SirUrza
Master of Realmslore
USA
1283 Posts |
Posted - 27 Sep 2012 : 23:56:06
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Ultimately everyone dies and that 100 year time jump made sure that everyone that wasn't an elf or dwarf (or otherwise near-immortal) would be dead. Leaving things up in the air during the time jump doesn't do anything but leave fans wanting more. Look at how Wulfgar is handled.. his legacy left to Drizzt's journal, his death a short story?
Heck, let me point out the return of Bane. How many years did fans clamor for more information and even a novel. It went ignored.
The Sundering novel is labelled the Companions and I don't believe it's for nostalgia. When Abeir and Toril get ripped apart I think their little private afterlife is going to ripped open and they'll spill back into Toril. I think Bob's a smart enough guy to know that there will never be a Realms where there are no Realms-Shaking Events and created this little pocketed afterlife to bring the Companions together again.
Either way, no Colson. :P |
"Evil prevails when good men fail to act."
The original and unapologetic Arilyn, Aribeth, Seoni Fanboy. |
Edited by - SirUrza on 27 Sep 2012 23:57:53 |
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 28 Sep 2012 : 06:28:34
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quote:
Originally posted by SirUrza
But Wulfgar... an exile with no apparent legacy?
As was said, Wulf went on to have several strong barbarian children in Icewind Dale, including one son named Bruenorson. He died with a mighty barbarian legacy, in no small part due to his magical warhammer.
quote:
I'll admit I'm still catching up and still in the very beginning, but Colson and Wulfgar's parting is very much bitter sweet.
Really? Why?
In The Orc King, Wulf got Colson back, and then returned her to her birth mother, thereby freeing him to resume his former barbarian life. He did something wonderful for himself, and for the girl, and closed the door on a painful part of his past.
I always read the Wulfgar/Delly/Colson relationship as a couple of recovering alcoholics playing house, pretending to be a normal family, but never quite pulling it off. It was a failed experiment in my eyes. That little girl was better off with her real mother, once Wulf was able to ensure that the Prince was no longer a threat to her.
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As I said, I'm still catching up, so I don't even know if the novels tell us the fate of Colson and it's just been left out of wiki. Does she grow up to remember Wulfgar? Is he still her "Da?"
I haven't read the latest Drizzt book, Charon's Claw, yet, but as of Neverwinter, no, we never found out what happened to her. But because of the fierce protectiveness of Lady Meralda when Wulf returned Colson to her, combined with the way that Meralda seemed to have wrapped Prince Feringal around her finger, it's likely that Colson grew up as a very privileged princess in Auckney. As she was only about 6 years old when we last saw her, we really don't know enough about her personality to determine if that would've been a satisfying life for her or not.
quote:
Originally posted by SirUrza
Look at how Wulfgar is handled.. his legacy left to Drizzt's journal, his death a short story?
I think you're overlooking the chapters in The Pirate King in which Drizzt and Regis visit Wulf back in Icewind Dale, and discuss the barbarian legend's pending reinsertion into Uthgardt society. There was actually quite a bit of text on all of this in TOK, TPK, and the short story "To Legend He Goes".
quote:
The Sundering novel is labelled the Companions and I don't believe it's for nostalgia. When Abeir and Toril get ripped apart I think their little private afterlife is going to ripped open and they'll spill back into Toril. I think Bob's a smart enough guy to know that there will never be a Realms where there are no Realms-Shaking Events and created this little pocketed afterlife to bring the Companions together again.
That certainly seems like the obvious outcome. Bob has said that he's very happy with the way things are going. I could see him personally quite happy with bringing (most of) them back.
But I will remind you that Drizzt has acquired a new adventuring party, made up of running buddies or "companions", since the fall of all the other old "Companions of the Hall". While they're nowhere near as endearing of characters as his old friends, still, they're not chopped liver; they're still important parts of Drizzt's new life. So it remains to be seen how Bob will handle any hand-off between the new and the old companions, if that is indeed his plan. And really, it also remains to be seen which group of buddies this title ultimately refers to. |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
Edited by - BEAST on 28 Sep 2012 06:29:32 |
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Tanthalas
Senior Scribe
Portugal
508 Posts |
Posted - 28 Sep 2012 : 14:03:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
Like I said, I'm not speaking for Bob or trying to imply his motivation went one way or another. Just that if I were in his situation, I would have preferred to kill my own characters before casting them adrift in a tumultuous wave of change.
Cheers
I'd rather you guys just let them die of old age for once. :( |
Sir Markham pointed out, drinking another brandy. "A chap who can point at you and say 'die' has the distinct advantage". |
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Sightless
Senior Scribe
USA
608 Posts |
Posted - 28 Sep 2012 : 15:09:29
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| Colson and Wulfgar's parting unsatisfying, I didn't find it as such. Sad, yes. It's sad for a number of reasons in that it represents the fact that with Wulfgar revealed a simple reality of being the hero, sometimes you can't have it all. You can't always be there trying to save the day and still have the joys of a family. He was smart enough to know that the girls wasn't his, wise enough to make the decision that she would be better off with a mother that truely loved her and with a family that could have provided for her better than he could, and brave enough to make the sacrifice of going into a situation that would require him to put his wants as secondary. Bob shows us in very clear language that the situation was hard for Wulfgar. Would it be nice to know what happened to the girl, sure, but she's not the first character whose development and exploits I'd kind of like to follow. |
We choose to live a lie, when we see with, & not through the eye.
Every decision, no matter the evidence, is a leap of faith; if it were not, then it wouldn't be a choice at all. |
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Merrith
Learned Scribe
135 Posts |
Posted - 28 Sep 2012 : 18:04:40
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quote:
Originally posted by SirUrza
The Sundering novel is labelled the Companions and I don't believe it's for nostalgia.
The "Companions" could very well simply refer to the new group of Drizzt, Dahlia, and Entreri as much as the old Companions of the Hall. Hell toss in a return of Jarlaxle and Athrogate and you have a whole new little bad. |
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Captain Grafalcon
Learned Scribe
Brazil
129 Posts |
Posted - 28 Sep 2012 : 18:33:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Tanthalas
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
Like I said, I'm not speaking for Bob or trying to imply his motivation went one way or another. Just that if I were in his situation, I would have preferred to kill my own characters before casting them adrift in a tumultuous wave of change.
Cheers
I'd rather you guys just let them die of old age for once. :(
Good point, but I think the Ghost King was a very fitting end for Cadderly.I find really hard to heroes such as Drizzt to prefer an old age death.
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"Surely you recognize that armies carrying banners are almost always thieves—until they win."
Jarlaxle, mercenary leader of Bregan D'aerthe. |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 28 Sep 2012 : 19:21:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Tanthalas
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
Like I said, I'm not speaking for Bob or trying to imply his motivation went one way or another. Just that if I were in his situation, I would have preferred to kill my own characters before casting them adrift in a tumultuous wave of change.
I'd rather you guys just let them die of old age for once. :(
It seems to me people get upset when their favorite characters die. We hear that Alustriel relinquished her immortality and faded away peacefully (which is basically dying of old age) and people are up in arms over that. One can't always win.
Ultimately, my main point is that it should be up to the author what happens to his or her characters. For instance, if Drizzt or some of his companions were to die, I'd much prefer to have Bob do it than have their deaths footnoted in a sourcebook. If he wants them to die of old age, great--if they die violently, whatever. It's up to Bob. He's the story teller.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Sightless
Senior Scribe
USA
608 Posts |
Posted - 28 Sep 2012 : 19:47:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
quote:
Originally posted by Tanthalas
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
Like I said, I'm not speaking for Bob or trying to imply his motivation went one way or another. Just that if I were in his situation, I would have preferred to kill my own characters before casting them adrift in a tumultuous wave of change.
I'd rather you guys just let them die of old age for once. :(
It seems to me people get upset when their favorite characters die. We hear that Alustriel relinquished her immortality and faded away peacefully (which is basically dying of old age) and people are up in arms over that. One can't always win.
Ultimately, my main point is that it should be up to the author what happens to his or her characters. For instance, if Drizzt or some of his companions were to die, I'd much prefer to have Bob do it than have their deaths footnoted in a sourcebook. If he wants them to die of old age, great--if they die violently, whatever. It's up to Bob. He's the story teller.
Cheers
Really.
That's how she died.
Wooooooht!!!!!
Some of what I've heard made it seem like she died by being killed or something. I could see her coming to the point that she realized that for the good of the kingdom and the Silver marches it would be necesary for her to move on. they had grown to dependent on her I think. And as much as I really liked the character, she's one of my Realms favorites, I like her all the more for taking this path. |
We choose to live a lie, when we see with, & not through the eye.
Every decision, no matter the evidence, is a leap of faith; if it were not, then it wouldn't be a choice at all. |
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charger_ss24
Learned Scribe
USA
108 Posts |
Posted - 28 Sep 2012 : 20:27:48
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Hi, new member here.
My biggest question regarding this whole life/death issue is Pwent. IMO, at the end of Charon's Claw, Bob just took a huge dump on the ending of Gauntlgrym between Pwent and King Bruenor, which I think was probably the best ending of any of his Forgotten Realms novels.
I'm sure there's a reason, but it has to be EPIC for ruining the ending of Gauntlgrym to be justified.  |
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jornan
Learned Scribe
Canada
256 Posts |
Posted - 30 Sep 2012 : 23:37:56
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| I miss the CotH too, but I hope they stay dead. I hope The Companions refers to Drizzt getting Gwen back and realizing his place is not with Entreri and Dhalia. It was just Drizzt and Gwen before and maybe they will set off again. |
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Euranna
Learned Scribe
USA
219 Posts |
Posted - 01 Oct 2012 : 03:51:52
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I actually thought Wulfgar's death was just as I imagined him passing. Protecting his people with his hammer in his hand.
It was as intense to me as the rest of the Companions deaths.
I do miss the CotH (and hence why I am looking forward to Stone of Tymora)but I do not expect them to come back in their prime. |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 01 Oct 2012 : 04:31:20
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While I'd like the Companions of the Hall to be reunited, the idea of the Sundering ripping apart their afterlife has me nervous: if that is the case, what will that mean for the realms of the gods? Granted, Iraduun (sp? I know I spelled that wrong), is more a pocket realm, and I don't think it's Mielikki's "official" realm, though it could be, so maybe it doesn't the "solidity" that the other Realms do. I still haven't finished Charon's Claw, but I think Catti is better for Drizzt than Dahlia, but that is just my opinion.
I was actually angered by Cadderly's death, and I hope he is brought back by Deneir. It seems like Danica and his children just sort of...accepted his death. There was no real reaction that I remember.
As for Wulfgar...he was never my favorite character, but now that it has been brought up, I do wonder what happened to Colson. I read the Drizzt anthology, and the last story in there is Wulfgar's death.
Bruenor was expecting to be with Moradin, and Wulfgar with Tempus (and Tempus and Moradin might have been expecting them too ;P) so being in Iraduun (I know I'm spelling it wrong), was a great shock to them, but at least they are all together. Regis probably expected to go to the Green Fields, but Catti lucked out. If she had gone to Mystra's realm...who knows where her soul would have gone, since Dweamorheart was destroyed.
This begs the question though: when Bob put the Companions in that particular afterlife, did he know about the Sundering? If not, what was he planning to do with them? |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 01 Oct 2012 : 10:09:24
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quote:
Originally posted by charger_ss24
Hi, new member here.
My biggest question regarding this whole life/death issue is Pwent. IMO, at the end of Charon's Claw, Bob just took a huge dump on the ending of Gauntlgrym between Pwent and King Bruenor, which I think was probably the best ending of any of his Forgotten Realms novels.
Which did you feel was worse: Bruenor not going to Moradin at the end of Gauntlgrym, or the rise of VamPwent at the end of Charon's Claw?
I remember reading Gauntlgrym and thinking that Pwent should become a vampire, so I was happy to learn that he did, indeed, in the Neverwinter Tales comic. It makes perfect sense that this happened, to me. He got bit by a vampire. Isn't that what's supposed to happen when you get bit? I think it would've been ruined if he hadn't turned.
I only wonder why it took so long for him to turn. But then, Bob's timetable runs at its own pace, so there's not necessarily a lot of rhyme or reason to it. It takes as long as it takes. |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 01 Oct 2012 : 10:14:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Euranna
I do miss the CotH (and hence why I am looking forward to Stone of Tymora)but I do not expect them to come back in their prime.
Why not?
They died, and their bodies were buried (well, at least Cat's, Regis's, and Bruenor's--I presume Wulf's would've been, as well). After decades since Cat's, Regis's, and Wulf's burials, it seems that their bodies would've been decomposed and withered away.
We know that their souls appear in Iruladoon back in their primes.
Why wouldn't they reappear in anything other their primes? It's not like they're gonna come back all decomposed, right? They're gonna have to get bodies in new or renewed condition, to some degree, right? Why not renewed all the way back to their primes? If they're gonna get a "reset", then they should get a real reset, and not basically an extended "rewind" to the point of death, IMO. |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 01 Oct 2012 : 11:28:03
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quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
Granted, Iraduun (sp? I know I spelled that wrong)
Iruladoon.
quote:
is more a pocket realm, and I don't think it's Mielikki's "official" realm, though it could be, so maybe it doesn't the "solidity" that the other Realms do.
Older lorebooks said that Mielikki used to make her domain on the Prime Material Plane (FRCS, 1E), but moved to an Outer Planes realm in the 1360s DR (Faiths & Avatars, 2E).
Her newer domain has been referred to as the House of Nature (Faiths and Pantheons, 3E) and the Deep Wilds (FRCG, 4E).
Iruladoon is said to be a pocket paradise which occasionally coincides with the Prime Material in the vacinity of Icewind Dale, but only on rare occasions ("Iruladoon"). Perhaps it is a fleeting remnant of her former domain? Or maybe it is the temporary Prime Material front to her Outer Planes realm?
quote:
This begs the question though: when Bob put the Companions in that particular afterlife, did he know about the Sundering? If not, what was he planning to do with them?
He hasn't given any indication that he knew, back then. He's just said that he didn't like the forced time jump, but he went along with he, because he had to. And yet, he stuck them in this limbo realm, and left us all (himself, included) asking a lot of questions.
Methinks he was giving himself a possible out, and waiting for TPTB to decide whether or not to greenlight their return, but he wasn't sure if he was going to do it or not.
I really think the Drizzt Diary in Neverwinter, Part I, where Drizzt says that he had been unwilling to really let go of the other Companions for decades, but now, he feels guilty because he is finally coming around to accepting it, might also have been a bit of Bob expressing his own mindset.
He could've been holding out the option of using Iruladoon to possibly bring them back, because he hadn't been willing to let them go, and he was slowly realizing that this was a little self-indulgent:
quote:
I was deluding myself, I now know.
For I hadn’t let go of my dear friends. I hadn’t lost hope that someday, one day, some way, I would raze a giant’s lair beside Wulfgar once more, or would fish beside Regis on a lazy summer’s day on the banks of Maer Dualdon, or I would spend the night in Catti-brie’s warm embrace. I tasked Jarlaxle with finding them, not out of any real hope that he would, but because I couldn’t bear to relinquish the last flicker of hope for these moments, these soft joys, these truest smiles, I once knew. (italics added; Nev., P1)
But it sounded like he was finally, reluctantly giving in to the idea of foregoing that option when he was writing Neverwinter:
quote:
There is closure. There is finality. [... W]hatever little flickers remained within my heart were snuffed out when I watched my dearest friend breathe his last.
[...]
But there is something else, something unexpected, something surprising, something bringing with it more than a bit of confusion and even guilt.
[...]
I am ashamed to admit this, but to deny it would be to lie, and worse, to lie to myself. For at long last I have a sense of finality. It is time for the past to rest and for me to move forward. It is time, as Innovindil explained to me in a forest far from here, for me to begin anew.
[...]
[ I ]n the larger sense, the greater perspective of my life, there is a sense of relief. I have been ready to let go of Catti-brie and Regis and Wulfgar for a long time now--not to forget them! I’ll never forget them, never want to forget them! They are embedded in my heart and soul and walk with Drizzt Do’Urden every step of his road. But I accepted their loss--my loss--years, even decades, ago, and it was only the stubbornness of an old dwarf, refusing to let go, insisting that they were still to be found and that our wondrous years together would be restored, that forced me, too, to hang on. (italics added; Nev., P1)
In the text, Drizzt is attributing the hanging-on-of-hope to the stubborness of another stubborn soul (Bruenor), but in real life, it might've actually been a case of Bob acknowledging that stubborn side of his own heart that was still hanging on. But the Drizzt side was belatedly, reluctantly, surrendering to the apparent necessity to accept it and move on. (Of course, I could be wrong, but that's how I read it, when the book came out--Bob just seemed so noncommital to the whole Iruladoon thing.)
This "Sundering" business strikes me as a completely serendipitous boon to Bob, and undoes the direction he was heading in just a few short books ago (namely, as described above, Neverwinter). Obviously, he's running with it now, but that doesn't necessarily mean that this is where he was preparing to head two years ago. |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
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Euranna
Learned Scribe
USA
219 Posts |
Posted - 01 Oct 2012 : 14:51:38
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quote:
[Why not?
They died, and their bodies were buried (well, at least Cat's, Regis's, and Bruenor's--I presume Wulf's would've been, as well). After decades since Cat's, Regis's, and Wulf's burials, it seems that their bodies would've been decomposed and withered away.
We know that their souls appear in Iruladoon back in their primes.
Why wouldn't they reappear in anything other their primes? It's not like they're gonna come back all decomposed, right? They're gonna have to get bodies in new or renewed condition, to some degree, right? Why not renewed all the way back to their primes? If they're gonna get a "reset", then they should get a real reset, and not basically an extended "rewind" to the point of death, IMO.
I am not sure the CotH are coming back at all, even if the door has been left open. I do not 100% agree they are in their prime. Yes, their physcially bodies are back to their youthful vigor. It appears Catt-brie has also lost the wound in her leg that made her leave the path of a fighter for a mage. However, Breunor and Wulfgar has both lived full lives and are not as they were when the CotH were in the prime emotionally and mentally. They may in fact be weary with life and be glad that they are done in the mortal coil (could be wrong, I admit it fully). Also, Catt is really madwits at the moment. She is not Catt at all. She is more a manifestation of the pocket dimension. Also, Wulfgar while glad to see Catt, did not seem okay with not being with Tempus at the end of his story. It read to me as if he knew it was not right and not where he was supposed to be. I think that unless their first round at their lives is completely wiped from their memories, they will not be mentally in their prime. And if those parts of their lives are wiped, would they still be the people that Drizzt knew? I can see complications in the relationships he has with them if that was the case. It might seem joyous to rejoin them, but it might end up being a heart ache to them all.
Physically, yes, I see their bodies being either in their prime or at the point of death (True Res I believe can bring someone back in their prime, Res is the point of death..I think).
Now, I have some really odd ideas about this whole thing. Yes, I am reading game mechanics into a novel. None of the Companions that are in Iruladoon ever went to the Fugue Planes, even though I think that Catt and Regis were in a unique position since Mielliki in essence saved them from their horrible lives and just took them and that caused their bodies to die (that is how I read it anyway). This is not the normal path a soul takes when it dies in the Realms, souls are collected in the Fugue Plans, the more devote, the faster the collection. This started me wondering about Iruladoon in the first place.
I am not surprised by the pocket dimension, or that it is implied it has existed for 1000's of years and that the name came from the ancient elven empires. In a way, it makes perfect sense. The role of the nature gods is to keep the balance of nature on Toril. An important part of that balance of Toril is the Weave. This is why Mystra is required to imbue part of her essence into her Chosen. It helps protect the Weave. I have been thinking about an odd idea. What is the gods of nature created said pocket dimensions to contain portions of the Weave to protect it? By doing so, they are protecting the natural balance of the Realms. Since their have been stories about Iruladoon for longer than Catt has been there, I do not think it was created for her and Regis, or the CotH. But a pleasant place to give them rest instead of the torment that Regis and Catt were living in.
So, now, we have Elminster Enraged, and the ending of it. I will not spoil it for anyone that has not read it. But, I can see a need for those protected pieces now. I might be reading something into this that was never intended, thought of, or even come to pass. I know that. But, it makes me wonder.
What would that mean for the CotH? Maybe they get to move on and live in the glory of their god (BTW, I don't remember Catt ever worshipping Mystra. I thought she always worshipped Dumathoin?)? I think they have all earned that.
(my apologies is this is not a clear read, my coffee has not yet arrived at work and my brain is still in a little limbo itself).
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charger_ss24
Learned Scribe
USA
108 Posts |
Posted - 01 Oct 2012 : 17:03:52
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quote:
Originally posted by BEAST
quote:
Originally posted by charger_ss24
Hi, new member here.
My biggest question regarding this whole life/death issue is Pwent. IMO, at the end of Charon's Claw, Bob just took a huge dump on the ending of Gauntlgrym between Pwent and King Bruenor, which I think was probably the best ending of any of his Forgotten Realms novels.
Which did you feel was worse: Bruenor not going to Moradin at the end of Gauntlgrym, or the rise of VamPwent at the end of Charon's Claw?
The rise of VamPwent (nice play of words btw) was worse I thought. I didn't remember Pwent getting bit by Dor'crae. I just remember his ass getting a beat down by Beealtimatuche. Yeah, it makes sense that he returned as a vampire after I looked back on it, but I thought after that great (and sad) ending, that Pwent should stay buried with his friend and king.
As for King Bruenor not going to Moradin, I'm ok with that. Who's to say he's not in the Halls of Moradin? Or Wulfgar with Tempus? Perhaps this little grove is the heaven set up for Drizzt that includes the essence of the Companions of the Hall. No one knows for sure what any afterlife will bring, gods can do anything, right?
For example, perhaps Moradin has a private little room set up for King Bruenor in the Halls that includes the essence of his daughter and boy, Regis, and Drizzt when his time comes. When it comes to thinking about the afterlife and heaven, I think of this line from Arlen Bitterbuck in The Green Mile right before his execution.
"Do you believe that if a man repents enough for what he done wrong, than he'll get to go back to the time that was happiest for him and live there forever? Could that be what heaven's like?"
I think, IMO, that would sum up the Companions' fate in the Realms. Each one of them (outside of Drizzt) has died and now could be in their own vision of heaven. We're just possibly seeing the heaven that's in store for Drizzt.
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 01 Oct 2012 : 17:07:15
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King Bruenor repeatedly put two humans, a drow, and a halfling before the needs of his fellow dwarves... he was a very, VERY bad king. He got up and left (and left someone else in charge) several times on a whim.
IMHO, he did not deserve to go to Moradin. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Captain Grafalcon
Learned Scribe
Brazil
129 Posts |
Posted - 01 Oct 2012 : 17:53:08
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
King Bruenor repeatedly put two humans, a drow, and a halfling before the needs of his fellow dwarves... he was a very, VERY bad king. He got up and left (and left someone else in charge) several times on a whim.
IMHO, he did not deserve to go to Moradin.
Good point, but he always considered himself more of an adventurer,friend and a father than a king.For example,in the Icewind dale trilogy,instead of helping his clan to recover from Akar Kessel´s destruction, he embarks on a journey to reclaim Mithral Hall. However, he always chooses someone worthy to sit on throne.
IMO, Cadderly shouldn´t return. Only a few adventurers can confront a dragon and live to tell the tale, imagine a Dracolich! I really liked this character, but his return would, somehow, diminish his sacrifice. |
"Surely you recognize that armies carrying banners are almost always thieves—until they win."
Jarlaxle, mercenary leader of Bregan D'aerthe. |
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Euranna
Learned Scribe
USA
219 Posts |
Posted - 01 Oct 2012 : 18:00:17
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[quote
IMO, Cadderly shouldn´t return. Only a few adventurers can confront a dragon and live to tell the tale, imagine a Dracolich! I really liked this character, but his return would, somehow, diminish his sacrifice.
[/quote]
Unless he came back to actually finish off the Ghost King. He is not dead dead yet. He is just kept from the Prime Material by Cadderly's sacrfice. :) |
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Captain Grafalcon
Learned Scribe
Brazil
129 Posts |
Posted - 01 Oct 2012 : 18:06:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Euranna
[quote
IMO, Cadderly shouldn´t return. Only a few adventurers can confront a dragon and live to tell the tale, imagine a Dracolich! I really liked this character, but his return would, somehow, diminish his sacrifice.
Unless he came back to actually finish off the Ghost King. He is not dead dead yet. He is just kept from the Prime Material by Cadderly's sacrfice. :)
[/quote]
Indeed.. |
"Surely you recognize that armies carrying banners are almost always thieves—until they win."
Jarlaxle, mercenary leader of Bregan D'aerthe. |
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 01 Oct 2012 : 21:42:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
King Bruenor repeatedly put two humans, a drow, and a halfling before the needs of his fellow dwarves... he was a very, VERY bad king. He got up and left (and left someone else in charge) several times on a whim.
IMHO, he did not deserve to go to Moradin.
Bah! Moradin expects harmonious coexistence with the other races, he does, and King Bruenor certainly helped to achieve that, what with his mixed-up adventuring party and all. And he ne'er left the Clan in incapable hands, but rather, entrusted it to wise, experienced, battle-tested leaders. History shows he always chose wisely for the Clan, while he went off and about, spreading good cheer and good will from Clan Battlehammer abroad (especially to pig-faces!  ). How could ye not simply love a bloke who bore a mug o'ale on his shield?  |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
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Euranna
Learned Scribe
USA
219 Posts |
Posted - 01 Oct 2012 : 23:07:15
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quote:
Originally posted by BEAST
Bah! Moradin expects harmonious coexistence with the other races, he does, and King Bruenor certainly helped to achieve that, what with his mixed-up adventuring party and all. And he ne'er left the Clan in incapable hands, but rather, entrusted it to wise, experienced, battle-tested leaders. History shows he always chose wisely for the Clan, while he went off and about, spreading good cheer and good will from Clan Battlehammer abroad (especially to pig-faces! ). How could ye not simply love a bloke who bore a mug o'ale on his shield?
He definitely made Clan Battlehammer know and respected and reclaiming Mithrall Hall. Sounds like an great dwarven king to me (it really is the horned helmet AND the mug of ale emblazzoned on his sheild that makes him super awesome.  ) |
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Captain Grafalcon
Learned Scribe
Brazil
129 Posts |
Posted - 02 Oct 2012 : 01:55:05
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quote:
Originally posted by BEAST
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
King Bruenor repeatedly put two humans, a drow, and a halfling before the needs of his fellow dwarves... he was a very, VERY bad king. He got up and left (and left someone else in charge) several times on a whim.
IMHO, he did not deserve to go to Moradin.
Bah! Moradin expects harmonious coexistence with the other races, he does, and King Bruenor certainly helped to achieve that, what with his mixed-up adventuring party and all. And he ne'er left the Clan in incapable hands, but rather, entrusted it to wise, experienced, battle-tested leaders. History shows he always chose wisely for the Clan, while he went off and about, spreading good cheer and good will from Clan Battlehammer abroad (especially to pig-faces! ). How could ye not simply love a bloke who bore a mug o'ale on his shield?
Dwarf lover detected! I sympathize with them too! Bruenor Battlehammer is a dear character. |
"Surely you recognize that armies carrying banners are almost always thieves—until they win."
Jarlaxle, mercenary leader of Bregan D'aerthe. |
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 02 Oct 2012 : 06:25:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Euranna
(it really is the horned helmet AND the mug of ale emblazzoned on his sheild that makes him super awesome. )
Yup, yup. That spells C-H-A-R-A-C-T-E-R.
quote:
Originally posted by Gavinho
Dwarf lover detected!
Guilty--oh, so guilty! 
MT is just sore that his beloved pig-faces have the brains of three-year-old children and are still hated. Plus, they have pig-faces! 
So, he's got to sling it around a little, to compensate for the hurt.  |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
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Still very bitter sweet...
