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Arcanus
Senior Scribe
485 Posts |
 Posted - 21 Sep 2012 : 21:25:01
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| I thought that the actual return of Mystra was a bit muted. I would have liked to see a bit more of a 'show' for the return of the goddess. |
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Eilserus
Master of Realmslore
USA
1446 Posts |
Posted - 22 Sep 2012 : 02:54:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Arcanus
I thought that the actual return of Mystra was a bit muted. I would have liked to see a bit more of a 'show' for the return of the goddess.
Like Lolth looking up and her Demonweave blowing apart. :) I still haven't figured out how that all ties in. Since Mystra didn't or couldn't destroy the Shadow Weave I suppose it's possible it will survive as there are multiple sources of magic in the Realms. I sure would have liked to read a few more pages of El raging out and blowing castles to dust and "cleaning house".
And here's something to think about: Once you cross a certain line, it's very easy to keep doing so. El might be tempted to do some more "Die worthless parasite" lines and actions in the future. Power can corrupt and all that, even 1,000+ year old archmages. Not saying I'd want to see that, it'd be like watching Yoda turn to the dark side, but man it would be interesting to see more losses of control as he continues slipping into insanity.
The multiple Manshoon clones active at once currently is very interesting, because I didn't quite understand his reference to it at the end of the book. I originally thought he meant there's always Manshoon types all over the Realms to deal with. |
Edited by - Eilserus on 22 Sep 2012 02:59:57 |
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Sightless
Senior Scribe
USA
608 Posts |
Posted - 22 Sep 2012 : 12:42:47
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| This might be a bit off topic, but what happened to the original Manshoon? Is he still around, or is he gone and the clones all that's left? |
We choose to live a lie, when we see with, & not through the eye.
Every decision, no matter the evidence, is a leap of faith; if it were not, then it wouldn't be a choice at all. |
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The Red Walker
Great Reader
USA
3567 Posts |
Posted - 22 Sep 2012 : 16:29:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Sightless
This might be a bit off topic, but what happened to the original Manshoon? Is he still around, or is he gone and the clones all that's left?
I'm pretty sure that "Manshoon prime" is long dead and into hie umpteenth clone at this point?
I think he was killed around 1370 or so by Fzoul Chembryl and someone else. |
A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka
"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -
John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
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BrooklynKnight
Acolyte
USA
2 Posts |
Posted - 22 Sep 2012 : 18:06:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Eilserus
quote:
Originally posted by Arcanus
I thought that the actual return of Mystra was a bit muted. I would have liked to see a bit more of a 'show' for the return of the goddess.
Like Lolth looking up and her Demonweave blowing apart. :) I still haven't figured out how that all ties in. Since Mystra didn't or couldn't destroy the Shadow Weave I suppose it's possible it will survive as there are multiple sources of magic in the Realms. I sure would have liked to read a few more pages of El raging out and blowing castles to dust and "cleaning house".
And here's something to think about: Once you cross a certain line, it's very easy to keep doing so. El might be tempted to do some more "Die worthless parasite" lines and actions in the future. Power can corrupt and all that, even 1,000+ year old archmages. Not saying I'd want to see that, it'd be like watching Yoda turn to the dark side, but man it would be interesting to see more losses of control as he continues slipping into insanity.
A shadow cannot be cast without something to cast it. I don't think the fate of Shar's Shadow Weave was mentioned anywhere but be it Shar or Lloth, without Mystra and her Weave the other would just fade away wouldn't it?
I'd love to know what the other consequences are across the realms when Mystra returns (returned). Is the weave back instantly? Is there going to be a short period of chaos as she re-establishes he control over magick? Will mages and warlocks have to learn all over again? Is this event part of what needs to happen for the Sundering to take place?
We just don't get enough from the novel I wish there was more short stories and official conjecture and tidbits dropped. I burn to know the answers to these questions heeh. |
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Aulduron
Learned Scribe
USA
343 Posts |
Posted - 22 Sep 2012 : 20:54:25
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I was quite surprised to read that Manshoon had silver fire. I must have missed something through the editions.
Are all the blue fire items, and their inhabitants gone now? |
"Those with talent become wizards, Those without talent spend their lives praying for it"
-Procopio Septus |
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Arcanus
Senior Scribe
485 Posts |
Posted - 22 Sep 2012 : 21:36:00
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quote:
Originally posted by BrooklynKnight
quote:
Originally posted by Eilserus
quote:
Originally posted by Arcanus
I thought that the actual return of Mystra was a bit muted. I would have liked to see a bit more of a 'show' for the return of the goddess.
Like Lolth looking up and her Demonweave blowing apart. :) I still haven't figured out how that all ties in. Since Mystra didn't or couldn't destroy the Shadow Weave I suppose it's possible it will survive as there are multiple sources of magic in the Realms. I sure would have liked to read a few more pages of El raging out and blowing castles to dust and "cleaning house".
And here's something to think about: Once you cross a certain line, it's very easy to keep doing so. El might be tempted to do some more "Die worthless parasite" lines and actions in the future. Power can corrupt and all that, even 1,000+ year old archmages. Not saying I'd want to see that, it'd be like watching Yoda turn to the dark side, but man it would be interesting to see more losses of control as he continues slipping into insanity.
A shadow cannot be cast without something to cast it. I don't think the fate of Shar's Shadow Weave was mentioned anywhere but be it Shar or Lloth, without Mystra and her Weave the other would just fade away wouldn't it?
I'd love to know what the other consequences are across the realms when Mystra returns (returned). Is the weave back instantly? Is there going to be a short period of chaos as she re-establishes he control over magick? Will mages and warlocks have to learn all over again? Is this event part of what needs to happen for the Sundering to take place?
We just don't get enough from the novel I wish there was more short stories and official conjecture and tidbits dropped. I burn to know the answers to these questions heeh.
The impression I get is that the weave will return and coexist with the other types of magic.
For the record I really don't see the point of a deity of magic unless they control all magic (except divine). You could say that shar with her shadow weave is also a goddess of magic. One too many gods for me. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36998 Posts |
Posted - 23 Sep 2012 : 00:49:36
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quote:
Originally posted by BrooklynKnight
quote:
Originally posted by Eilserus
quote:
Originally posted by Arcanus
I thought that the actual return of Mystra was a bit muted. I would have liked to see a bit more of a 'show' for the return of the goddess.
Like Lolth looking up and her Demonweave blowing apart. :) I still haven't figured out how that all ties in. Since Mystra didn't or couldn't destroy the Shadow Weave I suppose it's possible it will survive as there are multiple sources of magic in the Realms. I sure would have liked to read a few more pages of El raging out and blowing castles to dust and "cleaning house".
And here's something to think about: Once you cross a certain line, it's very easy to keep doing so. El might be tempted to do some more "Die worthless parasite" lines and actions in the future. Power can corrupt and all that, even 1,000+ year old archmages. Not saying I'd want to see that, it'd be like watching Yoda turn to the dark side, but man it would be interesting to see more losses of control as he continues slipping into insanity.
A shadow cannot be cast without something to cast it. I don't think the fate of Shar's Shadow Weave was mentioned anywhere but be it Shar or Lloth, without Mystra and her Weave the other would just fade away wouldn't it?
That would make sense, but it was something that the designers could not agree on and that changed frequently thru the 3.x era. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36998 Posts |
Posted - 23 Sep 2012 : 00:51:19
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quote:
Originally posted by The Red Walker
quote:
Originally posted by Sightless
This might be a bit off topic, but what happened to the original Manshoon? Is he still around, or is he gone and the clones all that's left?
I'm pretty sure that "Manshoon prime" is long dead and into hie umpteenth clone at this point?
I think he was killed around 1370 or so by Fzoul Chembryl and someone else.
Actually, that wasn't the Prime. Ed has indicated that Prime is off somewhere else, doing his own thing and enjoying the show.
I'd really like to know how he woke his first clone without any issues... |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Eilserus
Master of Realmslore
USA
1446 Posts |
Posted - 23 Sep 2012 : 02:16:40
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| What did the country map of Cormyr bursting into blue flame signify towards the end of the novel? I didn't really understand that other than maybe the borders of Cormyr were about to be redrawn. |
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Eilserus
Master of Realmslore
USA
1446 Posts |
Posted - 23 Sep 2012 : 02:17:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by The Red Walker
quote:
Originally posted by Sightless
This might be a bit off topic, but what happened to the original Manshoon? Is he still around, or is he gone and the clones all that's left?
I'm pretty sure that "Manshoon prime" is long dead and into hie umpteenth clone at this point?
I think he was killed around 1370 or so by Fzoul Chembryl and someone else.
Actually, that wasn't the Prime. Ed has indicated that Prime is off somewhere else, doing his own thing and enjoying the show.
I'd really like to know how he woke his first clone without any issues...
Good. For some reason, I just didn't care for Manshoon as a vampire. |
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Brimstone
Great Reader
USA
3290 Posts |
Posted - 23 Sep 2012 : 06:37:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Eilserus
What did the country map of Cormyr bursting into blue flame signify towards the end of the novel? I didn't really understand that other than maybe the borders of Cormyr were about to be redrawn.
That the Weave was returning starting with Cormyr? |
"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep |
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BrooklynKnight
Acolyte
USA
2 Posts |
Posted - 24 Sep 2012 : 08:27:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Eilserus
What did the country map of Cormyr bursting into blue flame signify towards the end of the novel? I didn't really understand that other than maybe the borders of Cormyr were about to be redrawn.
Strange, my copy of the book had no such map... |
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Aulduron
Learned Scribe
USA
343 Posts |
Posted - 24 Sep 2012 : 18:50:07
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| It's a scene in the book. |
"Those with talent become wizards, Those without talent spend their lives praying for it"
-Procopio Septus |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36998 Posts |
Posted - 24 Sep 2012 : 19:04:17
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quote:
Originally posted by BrooklynKnight
quote:
Originally posted by Eilserus
What did the country map of Cormyr bursting into blue flame signify towards the end of the novel? I didn't really understand that other than maybe the borders of Cormyr were about to be redrawn.
Strange, my copy of the book had no such map...
Your copy of the map had already been burned away by the blue flame! |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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The Red Walker
Great Reader
USA
3567 Posts |
Posted - 24 Sep 2012 : 19:49:32
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quote:
Originally posted by BrooklynKnight
quote:
Originally posted by Eilserus
What did the country map of Cormyr bursting into blue flame signify towards the end of the novel? I didn't really understand that other than maybe the borders of Cormyr were about to be redrawn.
Strange, my copy of the book had no such map...
 |
A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka
"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -
John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
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Tanthalas
Senior Scribe
Portugal
508 Posts |
Posted - 10 Oct 2012 : 22:43:11
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Just finished reading the book and have some questions:
1. THO mentioned that Ed left hints throughout the books that Manshoon has several clones active at the moment. Could someone point me to these? I only get that one in the last conversation El has with Storm.
2. After the Simbul restored Elminster, is he back to his old body or is he younger? To me it seemed that we might have a younger El now.
3. I haven't read all of Ed's books (only the spellfire novels, the knights of myth drannor novels and all the Sage of Shadowdale books) but I was under the impression that Hesperdan was El. This novel shows us that they are different people but that they have shared their thoughts in the past. Was this ever described anywhere? |
Sir Markham pointed out, drinking another brandy. "A chap who can point at you and say 'die' has the distinct advantage". |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6689 Posts |
Posted - 11 Oct 2012 : 02:58:50
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I asked the Hesperdan question of Ed many moons ago and his response was something along the lines of "NDA, but there are people in the Realms who will swear that they have seen both Hesperdan and Ed in the same place at the same time".
In Ed's later short story "The Many Murders of Manshoon" in Realms of the Dead, it appeared that Ed and other Chosen had been impersonating Hesperdan over may years (and I recall something else about using controlled clones of Hesperdan ... ?) and using such impersonations to disrupt the Zhentarim and other power groups.
-- George Krashos
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"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Merrith
Learned Scribe
135 Posts |
Posted - 17 Oct 2012 : 22:23:12
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[quote]Originally posted by George Krashos
I asked the Hesperdan question of Ed many moons ago and his response was something along the lines of "NDA, but there are people in the Realms who will swear that they have seen both Hesperdan and Ed in the same place at the same time".
In Ed's later short story "The Many Murders of Manshoon" in Realms of the Dead, it appeared that Ed and other Chosen had been impersonating Hesperdan over may years (and I recall something else about using controlled clones of Hesperdan ... ?) and using such impersonations to disrupt the Zhentarim and other power groups.
-- George Krashos
I was under the impression it was actually daughters of Elminster that had been impersonating Hesperdan in that short story. |
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charger_ss24
Learned Scribe
USA
108 Posts |
Posted - 18 Oct 2012 : 19:55:19
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| I used to read a lot about the Realms and after a long hiatus, I've got back into it. Since Christmas last year, I blew through the Drizzt series I hadn't read, beginning with the Hunter's Blades Trilogy. Now that I just finshed Charon's Claw, I need something else to catch up on. I haven't read any of the Sage of Shadowdale trilogy, but my question is do I need to re-read Ed's previous books? I've read all but Elminster's Daughter. Just wondering if I need to catch up on anything since it's been a while or if I can just jump into the trilogy. |
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Tanthalas
Senior Scribe
Portugal
508 Posts |
Posted - 18 Oct 2012 : 22:45:53
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Well, technically, the main character of Elminster's Daughter is mentioned in the Sage of Shadowdale trilogy. Once. But it really isn't anything of importance so you can go straight to the trilogy if you want to.
I don't recall anything that requires you to have read Elminster's Daughter to understand the story. |
Sir Markham pointed out, drinking another brandy. "A chap who can point at you and say 'die' has the distinct advantage". |
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Aerandir
Acolyte
United Kingdom
2 Posts |
Posted - 24 Dec 2012 : 20:26:01
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In chapter 11 there is talk about 2 people watching Manshoon who are able to cast a stronger scrying spell then him who had mastered is more then two thousand years ago
"The taller watcher had mastered stronger scryings than Manshoon commanded more than two thousand years ago"
Who are they ??? |
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Lilianviaten
Senior Scribe
489 Posts |
Posted - 24 Dec 2012 : 23:01:20
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Telamont Tanthul and his son Brennus would be a good guess, for a few reasons.
#1 - Cormyr and Shade have a cold war going on, and both sides likely have spies in the other kingdom's midst. I very much doubt that the Shades are unaware of Manshoon's recent actions.
#2 - In the Twilight War trilogy, Brennus is mentioned to be an exceptionally talented diviner, and it is also revealed that he has been attempting (unsuccessfully) to scry Elminster for years.
#3 - Also in the Twilight War trilogy, Telamont tells Rivalen that Sembia must be conquered quickly before the Chosen take notice. Telamont also references an ongoing spell war against the Chosen.
#4 - Ed is a genius when it comes to showing how all the puzzle pieces relate to each other. He wouldn't write about the current situation in Cormyr without touching upon all the players in the Cormyrean web (War Wizards, nobles, Obarskyrs, Purple Dragons, Chosen, Shades, Dalelands, etc.)
Given that Manshoon, the Simbul, and Elminster are already important to the story, and Larloch has been mentioned as coming back, the introduction of Shades just makes my mouth water. Wizards aren't even my favorite class, but this is just too much! |
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Aerandir
Acolyte
United Kingdom
2 Posts |
Posted - 25 Dec 2012 : 10:38:59
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| That makes sense, I liked the references to Larloch at the end, very exciting. Whos side do you think Larloch would take? I would assume Elminsters??? |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 25 Dec 2012 : 21:23:25
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I agree with Lilianviaten, specially with #s 2 and 3 reasons. The two thousand years is also hint enough, I suppose. [Though Larloch and a whole bunch of yet unknown Netherese surviving archwizards would fit that hint. Haha.] |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Ergdusch
Master of Realmslore
Germany
1720 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jan 2013 : 16:27:50
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This might not be the right place to ask my question, but I couldn't find a better one in short time.
[Dear Mods, feel free to move my post to the right shelf.] Now to my question:
I've been away from the Realms pretty much since the 4th Ed. was introduced and Mystra got killed (again) and all that.
Now, I' asking (with a spoiler warning, so please highlight):
>Is Mystra really back as Godess in the 4th Ed.?<
Ergdusch |
"Das Gras weht im Wind, wenn der Wind weht." |
Edited by - Ergdusch on 03 Jan 2013 16:29:13 |
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BlackAce
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
360 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jan 2013 : 17:42:27
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| In a word: Yes. But wether the ultimate outcome will be a restored Pre-ToT Mystra/Weave is still far from certain. |
Edited by - BlackAce on 03 Jan 2013 17:43:02 |
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Ergdusch
Master of Realmslore
Germany
1720 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jan 2013 : 21:15:37
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quote:
Originally posted by BlackAce
In a word: Yes. But wether the ultimate outcome will be a restored Pre-ToT Mystra/Weave is still far from certain.
Thank you, BlackAce. For me, that answer is absolutely sufficient.
Ergdusch |
"Das Gras weht im Wind, wenn der Wind weht." |
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phranctoast
Learned Scribe
USA
151 Posts |
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Menelvagor
Senior Scribe
Israel
352 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jan 2013 : 19:08:47
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Back from a very long absence, and this was my first thread to go into, having recently read Elminster Enraged. I'll probably have much more to mention once I thoroughly re-read, but currently, one question stands paramount in my mind (and since our Lady THO is frequenting this thread, I hope it will be answered):
What the heck happened with Symrustar? That is, the last we saw her in a book was at the raising of the Mythal of Cormanthor. And it was quite obvious (to me, at least) that El knew that Mystra had taken her as her own. He even said it: "Mystra has claimed her. She will serve the Lady of Mysteries now". And according to gaming books (notably Cormanthyr and The Fall of Myth Drannor) she lived in Myth Drannor, creating magic and working with the other masters of Art in the city until the Fall. Everywhere she is described as a known Chosen of Mystra, and the account of her death had her exploding, not just in fire (as she sad in Elminster Enraged) but in Silver Fire, with no body found. Her greatest spells were supposedly forged in partnership with the Srinshee and Elminster.
But in Elminster Enraged, this knowledge is refuted, and it seems as though El's knowledge of her and their relationship ended with that disastrous encounter in which she was broken. Forget her death (which though very disappointing to me, at least comes after a long and full life serving Mystra and bettering the world), but her life between her being Chosen and her death is utterly negated. Why? I cannot believe Ed forgot what he wrote. I suppose it's possible he chose to ignore or consider as non-canon Cormanthor and The Fall of Myth Drannor, but why? Symrustar could just as easily have been hidden from Elminster after her 'death' in the Fall, instead of in her first disappearance in Elminster in Myth Drannor.
In the end, in this book one my most beloved minor character's history was destroyed, and I just can't understand it. And there's not even the consolation of her becoming Mystra (or part of her) as is possible with Alassra. |
"Shall mortal man be more just than God? shall a man be more pure than his maker?
Behold, he put no trust in his servants; and his angels he charged with folly.
How much less them that dwell in houses of clay, whose foundation in the dust, are crushed before the moth?" - Eliphaz the Temanite, Job IV, 17-19.
"Yea, though he live a thousand years twice, yet hath he seen no good: do not all go to one place?" - Ecclesiastes VI, 6.
"There are no stupid questions – just a bunch of inquisitive idiots."
"Let's not call it 'hijacking'. Let's call it 'Thread Drift'." |
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Elminster Enraged
