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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12229 Posts |
 Posted - 10 Sep 2012 : 22:09:32
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quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One
A pleasure.
Give yourself two or three weeks, then dip into ENRAGED again, now that you know that, and see how some scenes "read" now, bolstered by knowing that.
For me, considering how often The Simbul shapechanged in the "home" Realms campaign, so we Knights were always meeting her as a bird or a fox or a horse or a rustic (male) stablehand, surprisingly little has changed about her, from my point of view. 
love,
THO
She ever pose as a bear?  |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12229 Posts |
Posted - 10 Sep 2012 : 22:32:45
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quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One
sleyvas, don't assume El was unmistaken about Manshoon. There's more to reveal here, too, in future.
Ed works a longer, deeper, more multiplayered game than most give him credit for.
I like the way you phrased that. I hope that El was mistaken.
I'm also intrigued to see what will happen with Larloch. Pretty much he's played a good job with bottling up a lot of evil that could be wreaking havoc in the realms... but not much has been done with him. You know, one of the things that I always thought would have been neat to explore was.... who exactly became the avatar of Mellifleur during the Avatar Crisis. We "know" that later on Velsharoon either killed Mellifleur or just started using his Alias, but I half wonder if old Vel didn't find the phylactery that Mellifleur used when he was cast down from the heavens in avatar form... and was that avatar actually amongst the liches in Larloch's hold and was there some mischief performed during that time that would have made some good stories. Oh, and is that phylactery still around even now that old Velsharoon has passed (and perhaps a greater question, does it possess the spirits of both Velsharoon AND Mellifleur... and can they manifest in avatar form with their own personalities if another divine being were to tie themselves to it).... the idea of a tri-partite (schizophrenic?)deity of undeath is intriguing... especially if the parts don't know about the actions of the whole. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Merrith
Learned Scribe
135 Posts |
Posted - 10 Sep 2012 : 22:53:43
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
spoiler below ....
so I was pretty much certain El was going to run around blasting everything under the sun in the book, so no really big surprise at the ending. I enjoyed the book, but I was kind of cheesed off by Elminster coming to a realization that Manshoon will only be able to be killed with the aid of a god or 2 gods working in concert. I'm sorry, Manshoon's not all that. Sure, he was powerful... he got his comeuppance with the Manshoon Wars. He's still nothing to sneeze at. He doesn't require a god to kill him. I do half wonder at my earlier guess that the Simbul and Mystra might become one and the same, since she gathered all this "blueflame" power and then faded to nothing kissing Elminster. I wouldn't be adverse to a Mystra with a bit of a temper.
With regards to Manshoon...maybe I was reading too much into their last conversation, but I thought it seemed pretty clear that another revelation was that Manshoon was something more than just another mage, as in...a Chosen. Given what THO revealed about the Simbul and what El said about Manshoon, it all makes sense that neither would be gone at this point, and that it would take some divine help of some sort to completely snuff out their "flame" so to speak. |
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The Red Walker
Great Reader
USA
3567 Posts |
Posted - 10 Sep 2012 : 23:53:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
...but I was kind of cheesed off by Elminster coming to a realization that Manshoon will only be able to be killed with the aid of a god or 2 gods working in concert.
Seriously? Did El say why? [I don't mind spoilers. I probably wouldn't read the book, anyway. But curious nonetheless.]
Spoiler
el said the silver fire resided in Manshoon too long for him to totally destroy. Before killing him this time El let Manshoon know he was the pawn of a higher power....He also pretty much told him Mystra was using him as a pawn. |
A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka
"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -
John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
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The Red Walker
Great Reader
USA
3567 Posts |
Posted - 10 Sep 2012 : 23:57:05
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
spoiler below ....
so I was pretty much certain El was going to run around blasting everything under the sun in the book, so no really big surprise at the ending. I enjoyed the book, but I was kind of cheesed off by Elminster coming to a realization that Manshoon will only be able to be killed with the aid of a god or 2 gods working in concert. I'm sorry, Manshoon's not all that. Sure, he was powerful... he got his comeuppance with the Manshoon Wars. He's still nothing to sneeze at. He doesn't require a god to kill him. I do half wonder at my earlier guess that the Simbul and Mystra might become one and the same, since she gathered all this "blueflame" power and then faded to nothing kissing Elminster. I wouldn't be adverse to a Mystra with a bit of a temper.
Well something first would have to happen to Mystra, since she was partially back before The Simbul sacrificed herself......if the old Mystra is back as she proclaimed to El....I think we will see plenty of temper when she sets her house in order |
A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka
"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -
John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
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ElaineCunningham
Forgotten Realms Author
2396 Posts |
Posted - 11 Sep 2012 : 01:09:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Yoss
Uh, so I just read the title of the thread as "Elminster engaged".
Could be worse. I read it as "Elminster Engorged." |
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The Red Walker
Great Reader
USA
3567 Posts |
Posted - 11 Sep 2012 : 01:15:55
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quote:
Originally posted by ElaineCunningham
quote:
Originally posted by Yoss
Uh, so I just read the title of the thread as "Elminster engaged".
Could be worse. I read it as "Elminster Engorged."
So did I....I was going to leave it unsaid....so thanks |
A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka
"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -
John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
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Seravin
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1305 Posts |
Posted - 11 Sep 2012 : 03:53:08
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quote:
Originally posted by ElaineCunningham
quote:
Originally posted by Yoss
Uh, so I just read the title of the thread as "Elminster engaged".
Could be worse. I read it as "Elminster Engorged."
LOL Elaine...what a fine dirty mind you have! |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 11 Sep 2012 : 06:04:34
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quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One
And Dennis, if you don't read the book or any of Ed's fiction, that rather hampers your full understanding of the Realms. In turn leading to a different grasp of the Shades, Thay, and so on than the rest of us. Ed remains THE canon lore source for the Realms, and his novels are loaded with Realmslore. You don't have to like them, but if you want to talk about certain matters in the Realms . . .
love to all,
THO
Nah. I believe we had this discussion before. Novels for me are meant to be read primarily for pleasure, not study. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 11 Sep 2012 : 21:34:12
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| this has become a joke with all the deaths and resurrections |
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Spencer
Acolyte
Canada
10 Posts |
Posted - 11 Sep 2012 : 22:53:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Quale
this has become a joke with all the deaths and resurrections
My interpretation of it is that the characters in question have never died. Magic! Powerful magic!
And when El survives at the end, it isn't without a cost. So even if you know Elminster will somehow stay alive, you don't know the consequences (which could be more terrible than death!). |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 12 Sep 2012 : 00:38:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Quale
this has become a joke with all the deaths and resurrections
I tend to agree... |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Caolin
Senior Scribe
769 Posts |
Posted - 14 Sep 2012 : 18:41:16
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| Does anyone know what year the events of this trilogy take place in? |
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Kris the Grey
Senior Scribe
USA
422 Posts |
Posted - 14 Sep 2012 : 22:59:57
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THO,
My lady (aka wife) is quite pleased to hear your Simbul speculations given her rather substantial crush on her. Please feel free to pass that along to Ed. Lol.
I quite enjoyed the series. It nicely provided a respectable resolution for a number of meaningful characters from the past (Alusair, Vangey, Mirt, etc), provided a mechanism to bring more of them back into play (the Blueflame items), brought back Mystra (who I would not at all mind actually being Mystra instead of Midnight as is somewhat alluded to, despite Midnight being the object of my wife's other girl crush), and set the stage for the Sundering series. It also introduced an updated Cormyr with interesting characters and a wealth of details that made it a place that I actually care about again post Spellplague (if only we could get him to do that for a few other locations...).
Ed did a fine job working with what he had the ability to do and moving the story of the Realms forward in time. I know it won't please everyone (and the Realms are still missing a thing or two that I'd love to see back), but it was a great start. Whatever else, it is certainly nice to be enjoying the sunshine in a glade while watching Mirt train a new generation of Harpers on the ninth day after Mystra's Return! |
Kris the Grey - Member in Good Standing of the Watchful Order of Magists and Protectors, the Arcane Guild of Silverymoon, and the Connecticut Bar Association |
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Malcolm
Learned Scribe
242 Posts |
Posted - 15 Sep 2012 : 03:08:16
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| Caolin, the trilogy takes place in the spring of 1479 DR (Year of the Ageless One), the baseline year for the 4e Realms. Each book directly follows the previous one, and together they don't cover more than a tenday or so (perhaps twenty days in all). So, spring into late spring of 1479 DR. |
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Caolin
Senior Scribe
769 Posts |
Posted - 15 Sep 2012 : 18:02:51
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quote:
Originally posted by Malcolm
Caolin, the trilogy takes place in the spring of 1479 DR (Year of the Ageless One), the baseline year for the 4e Realms. Each book directly follows the previous one, and together they don't cover more than a tenday or so (perhaps twenty days in all). So, spring into late spring of 1479 DR.
Thanks!
I asked because I was wondering if future novels will mention Mystra's return. I wanted to keep an eye out for it. |
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Veritas
Learned Scribe
209 Posts |
Posted - 16 Sep 2012 : 15:56:50
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As this topic seems to mention spoilers my questions below may be potentially be spoilery. Please PLEASE avoid reading this post until you have finished Elminster Enraged/Engaged/Engorged.
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On to the questions. As I didn't want to litter Ed's scroll with spoilerish questions, I've submitted them below. The vampire Manshoon is referred to herein as Vampshoon.
1) Silver Fire. I though undead were unable to withstand Mystra's silver fire, as the silver fire is, to a degree, the raw stuff of pure magic/life energies. Unfortunately, I don't have my sourcebooks handy to see if Sammaster possessed the silver fire as an undead, or if it was stripped of him before his conversion to undeath. Presuming that the silver fire still represents life energies, how did an undead in the novel retain possession of it without being obliterated?
2) Is Manshoon actually be Sammaster, or alternatively, is Sammaster an incarnation of Manshoon? [Insert NDA]
3) Does Manshoon prime retain his original body at this point? Is he just a sentience (or life force) spread across multiple clones? (Was Ed slyly dropping those hints when Vampshoon speculated the same about Elminster)
4) Has Storm lost the silver fire? Mystra could have saved some effort by requesting that Storm offer her fire in addition to El, the Simbul, and the Chosen revealed to be slain early in the novel. Instead Elminster collects the silver fire from someone else before hightailing it to Mystra for some quick relief.
END SPOILERS
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Comments:
I was pleased with the overall direction of the book in restoring some elements of the classic Realms. I cannot wait to finally hear more about a certain lich mentioned in the last few pages.
I had a difficult time with Elminster's combat abilities. I doubt he's had all that much sword practice in the last few centuries (and only a few years would be enough to dull the skill and reflexes). However Elminster slices and dices his way through the novel like Drizzt with a head cold.
I was disappointed by Vampshoon's characterization in this novel. Naturally Ed's vision of Manshoon cannot match my own.
Ed portrayed that Vampshoon may have been losing his wits for a long while, but even so he still played as a paranoid powerhouse rather than one of the Realms' most canny manipulators. I feel like the Manshoon we've see on page for decades appears somewhat inept with an alarming expiration habit.
I wouldn't have minded El raging a bit more, shattering a few towers, or causing more of a ruckus. Perhaps he did, off page, and we can hear more about it in a paragraph or two of a future sourcebook.
Overall I found it a strong novel in terms of restoring elements I like to the Realms but found that to my taste it wasn't one of the better Ed novels. I would like to add that generally I love Ed's writing and wrote the above comments to reflect my preferences rather than as an attack on his work. |
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Sightless
Senior Scribe
USA
608 Posts |
Posted - 16 Sep 2012 : 16:10:01
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| According to Cult of the Dragon Sandmaster had his removed before Lichdom. |
We choose to live a lie, when we see with, & not through the eye.
Every decision, no matter the evidence, is a leap of faith; if it were not, then it wouldn't be a choice at all. |
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Tyrant
Senior Scribe
USA
586 Posts |
Posted - 16 Sep 2012 : 23:12:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Veritas
As this topic seems to mention spoilers my questions below may be potentially be spoilery. Please PLEASE avoid reading this post until you have finished Elminster Enraged/Engaged/Engorged.
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On to the questions. As I didn't want to litter Ed's scroll with spoilerish questions, I've submitted them below. The vampire Manshoon is referred to herein as Vampshoon.
1) Silver Fire. I though undead were unable to withstand Mystra's silver fire, as the silver fire is, to a degree, the raw stuff of pure magic/life energies. Unfortunately, I don't have my sourcebooks handy to see if Sammaster possessed the silver fire as an undead, or if it was stripped of him before his conversion to undeath. Presuming that the silver fire still represents life energies, how did an undead in the novel retain possession of it without being obliterated?
2) Is Manshoon actually be Sammaster, or alternatively, is Sammaster an incarnation of Manshoon? [Insert NDA]
3) Does Manshoon prime retain his original body at this point? Is he just a sentience (or life force) spread across multiple clones? (Was Ed slyly dropping those hints when Vampshoon speculated the same about Elminster)
4) Has Storm lost the silver fire? Mystra could have saved some effort by requesting that Storm offer her fire in addition to El, the Simbul, and the Chosen revealed to be slain early in the novel. Instead Elminster collects the silver fire from someone else before hightailing it to Mystra for some quick relief.
END SPOILERS
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Comments:
I was pleased with the overall direction of the book in restoring some elements of the classic Realms. I cannot wait to finally hear more about a certain lich mentioned in the last few pages.
I had a difficult time with Elminster's combat abilities. I doubt he's had all that much sword practice in the last few centuries (and only a few years would be enough to dull the skill and reflexes). However Elminster slices and dices his way through the novel like Drizzt with a head cold.
I was disappointed by Vampshoon's characterization in this novel. Naturally Ed's vision of Manshoon cannot match my own.
Ed portrayed that Vampshoon may have been losing his wits for a long while, but even so he still played as a paranoid powerhouse rather than one of the Realms' most canny manipulators. I feel like the Manshoon we've see on page for decades appears somewhat inept with an alarming expiration habit.
I wouldn't have minded El raging a bit more, shattering a few towers, or causing more of a ruckus. Perhaps he did, off page, and we can hear more about it in a paragraph or two of a future sourcebook.
Overall I found it a strong novel in terms of restoring elements I like to the Realms but found that to my taste it wasn't one of the better Ed novels. I would like to add that generally I love Ed's writing and wrote the above comments to reflect my preferences rather than as an attack on his work.
This is just general speculation based on the books and answers from Ed, but perhaps Manshoon Prime is the Chosen and his clones have only a sliver of the silver fire. Or perhaps it had something to do with the nature of the clone spell that allowed Vampshoon to retain his silver fire. To me, the question going forward is does he still have any of it?
As for his characterization, I think this book provides a clue as to his apparently increasing insanity. I think it has to do with the silver fire. El mentions the silver fire driving the Simbul mad, so maybe it did the same to Manshoon. Vampshoon would've gone a century or more without a "reset" since he didn't jump into a new clone (presumably, since he is still a vampire). If the silver fire was spread over the clones then maybe it was condensing into Vampshoon as the other clones died in the Clone Wars. He was also doing a whole lot of mind riding/controlling towards the end (and presumably over the last century). He has also lost most of what he built with the Zhentarim (as I believe he mentions in Elminster Must Die at one point). And there is the undeath thing to consider. All of that together (along with him likely already having some screws loose)might have been enough to make him snap worse than normal. |
Peace is a lie, there is only passion. Through passion, I gain strength. Through strength, I gain power. Through power, I gain victory. Through victory, my chains are broken. The Force shall free me.
-The Sith Code
Teenage Sith zombies, Tulkh thought-how in the moons of Bogden had it all started? Every so often, the universe must just get bored and decide to really cut loose. -Star Wars: Red Harvest |
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Marc
Senior Scribe
662 Posts |
Posted - 17 Sep 2012 : 11:33:34
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| Is the Vampshoon the same clone that was in Westgate taking over the Night Knives? |
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Veritas
Learned Scribe
209 Posts |
Posted - 17 Sep 2012 : 13:12:57
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| Yes, Vampshoon is the same clone that took over the Night Knives under the Orbakh alias. |
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore
5056 Posts |
Posted - 17 Sep 2012 : 17:34:28
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Hi, Veritas. Let me try to answer some of your questions...
"1) Presuming that the silver fire still represents life energies, how did an undead in the novel retain possession of it without being obliterated?"
We don't know, for certain. But then, everything we mortals know about the silver fire is conjecture, speculation, and cobbled together from observation. Manshoon obviously has a role as a rebellious/reluctant servant of Mystra, and a connection to the Weave greater than your common human mortal wizard. Its details remain to be revealed.
"2) Is Manshoon actually be Sammaster, or alternatively, is Sammaster an incarnation of Manshoon? [Insert NDA]"
I highly doubt Manshoon is Sammaster. In the home Realms campaign I've even seen them both onstage at the same time, and not working directly together.
"3) Does Manshoon prime retain his original body at this point? Is he just a sentience (or life force) spread across multiple clones? (Was Ed slyly dropping those hints when Vampshoon speculated the same about Elminster)"
I don't know. There are definitely multiple Manshoon clones active at once ("right now" in this most recent trilogy of Ed's). Ed drops a lot of hints. :}
"4) Has Storm lost the silver fire? Mystra could have saved some effort by requesting that Storm offer her fire in addition to El, the Simbul, and the Chosen revealed to be slain early in the novel. Instead Elminster collects the silver fire from someone else before hightailing it to Mystra for some quick relief."
I don't know, but I don't think so. I suspect Mystra needs Storm to have her fire to do other things with it, and is playing a more complex game (that El sees and respects) than was shown to us onstage. Gods, from the mortal point of view, rarely do things just to save effort.
"I had a difficult time with Elminster's combat abilities. I doubt he's had all that much sword practice in the last few centuries (and only a few years would be enough to dull the skill and reflexes). However Elminster slices and dices his way through the novel like Drizzt with a head cold."
People always seem to forget that Elminster fights and runs and does various acrobatic things almost every day of his life. And goes armed most of the time. Yep, that's a sword, folks. They think "beard, OLD old old, pointy hat, robes, wizards don't fight." Seeing El in the home campaign, I know differently. El tries to avoid using magic whenever he can, preferring simpler ways. He's weak and old and in pain, but in the way a retired but still fit athlete who looks old and weathered will surprise the rest of us by vaulting a fence or running and tackling someone. So, too, with El. Remember: he's been adventuring (and fencing with blades, with better teachers) longer than Drizzt's been alive.
"I was disappointed by Vampshoon's characterization in this novel. Naturally Ed's vision of Manshoon cannot match my own.
Ed portrayed that Vampshoon may have been losing his wits for a long while, but even so he still played as a paranoid powerhouse rather than one of the Realms' most canny manipulators. I feel like the Manshoon we've see on page for decades appears somewhat inept with an alarming expiration habit."
It seems you missed three books worth of rather obvious hints. "Vampshoon" is one of multiple active-at-the-same-time Manshoon clones (and the others are closing in on him). All of these clones are mad and going barking, drooling mad (Manshoon's mass clone spell is still a clone spell; what happens when multiple clones of the same person are active at once?). The Manshoon you saw onstage in ENRAGED was holding it together only by tremendous effort. Yes, he's paranoid to the extreme, and by the end almost a cackling caricature. It's a testament to his own strength of will that he was functioning at all, rather than becoming a mindless, gibbering slaughtering-anything-in-sight force.
"I wouldn't have minded El raging a bit more, shattering a few towers, or causing more of a ruckus. Perhaps he did, off page, and we can hear more about it in a paragraph or two of a future sourcebook."
Heh. Me, too. I think Ed (or his editors) took a lot of that out to keep the book fast-paced and focused. The peril in cutting-loose scenes is that they all blend together and overwhelm the reader after awhile. Pacing (in this case, I mean doling the mayhem out with the right timing) is everything. Future sourcebooks? That's hidden from us all, right now. Off to Ed your post goes, though, and we'll see what appears in future.
love,
THO
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Veritas
Learned Scribe
209 Posts |
Posted - 18 Sep 2012 : 13:15:53
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THO,
As ever you have my deep gratitude for your lovely insight. I am all for a strong willed, brilliant Manshoon. To clarify, I believe it was Cloak & Dagger that described that the vampire Manshoon was not under the compulsions of the Clone spell due to vampirism changing his nature. Was that incorrect or subsequently revised, perhaps by this trilogy? It also stands to reason that the other Manshoons "closing in" would also be driven witless unless they found a means to counteract the Clone insanity.
And you should write a book or three about that home Realms campaign. I'd buy stacks of copies :) |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12229 Posts |
Posted - 18 Sep 2012 : 17:11:07
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| regarding the note about El wielding weapons skillfully... he's still a level 35 character (29 of which are wizard-ish) who had some levels in a warrior, a rogue, and a priest class before becoming a wizard. His base attack bonus according to 3rd edition rules would probably be somewhat equivalent to say a 12th-15th lvl fighter (not too shabby). Given that he's spent the last century not using his wizard skills, I can see him having honed those weapon wielding skills again. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Sightless
Senior Scribe
USA
608 Posts |
Posted - 18 Sep 2012 : 17:21:18
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| Knowing EL they probably never got to shabby in the first place. After all he's been in situations where duking it out with spells wasn't the wisest situation, or where it wasn't possible at all, like dealing with shadow magic wielders. |
We choose to live a lie, when we see with, & not through the eye.
Every decision, no matter the evidence, is a leap of faith; if it were not, then it wouldn't be a choice at all. |
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Veritas
Learned Scribe
209 Posts |
Posted - 18 Sep 2012 : 18:20:44
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To respond to some good points raised...
In 1479 DR, Elminster can't be a 35th level character as they don't exist anymore unless they're deities :P. (If I were Iolaum, I'd be annoyed that after all these millenia, I've been capped at Szass Tam's power level.) In fact, the only 4E Elminster writeup I am aware of saw was in DRAGON which listed his diminished 4E self as a level 19 controller. Anyway the "rules" are never an accurate representation of a character's entire capabilities.
Although I have a difficult time imagining a character who is physically in his 70s-80s, even an athletic one, being able to maintain the reflexes and melee combat skills of characters with high level training and physical youth. For example. some of the drow he slays may have been swordfighting specialists with centuries of constant practice, not to mention the heightened survival skills associated with a culture under a pervasive threat of treachery and slaying. Further, the above described drow, retaining comparative physical youth also has superior knowledge regarding Underdark combat.
On the other hand, Elminster complains about the weakness and pain he's dealt with in his physical form. To me it seems unlikely that he could maintain an elite level of conditioning that would allow him to best a squad of drow warriors.
However El is ever one to buck the odds so I'll just chalk it up to El being El and being "swiftly capable" in dealing death. And hey, he's a divine servitor. Chosen can be as physically resilient as a Rugby player.
I am not saying there is anything wrong with Elminster Enraged's characterization of El's capabilities, only that I find myself having difficulty buying it. Everything described above is internally consistent with its world. After all, Ed created it. |
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Sightless
Senior Scribe
USA
608 Posts |
Posted - 18 Sep 2012 : 18:49:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Veritas
To respond to some good points raised...
In 1479 DR, Elminster can't be a 35th level character as they don't exist anymore unless they're deities :P. (If I were Iolaum, I'd be annoyed that after all these millenia, I've been capped at Szass Tam's power level.) In fact, the only 4E Elminster writeup I am aware of saw was in DRAGON which listed his diminished 4E self as a level 19 controller. Anyway the "rules" are never an accurate representation of a character's entire capabilities.
Although I have a difficult time imagining a character who is physically in his 70s-80s, even an athletic one, being able to maintain the reflexes and melee combat skills of characters with high level training and physical youth. For example. some of the drow he slays may have been swordfighting specialists with centuries of constant practice, not to mention the heightened survival skills associated with a culture under a pervasive threat of treachery and slaying. Further, the above described drow, retaining comparative physical youth also has superior knowledge regarding Underdark combat.
On the other hand, Elminster complains about the weakness and pain he's dealt with in his physical form. To me it seems unlikely that he could maintain an elite level of conditioning that would allow him to best a squad of drow warriors.
However El is ever one to buck the odds so I'll just chalk it up to El being El and being "swiftly capable" in dealing death. And hey, he's a divine servitor. Chosen can be as physically resilient as a Rugby player.
I am not saying there is anything wrong with Elminster Enraged's characterization of El's capabilities, only that I find myself having difficulty buying it. Everything described above is internally consistent with its world. After all, Ed created it.
Well, since I've not read it, I cannot say one way or the other. I shall say this though. SLee Bu'Ti defeated weight swordsmen at once and he was in his seventies. No while they weren't Drow, the comparison is not the same, but all where well trained and considerably younger than the man responsible for defeating them. This fight occured in 1912, and was recorded by numerous sorces. Still, I can understand what your saying about difficulties to wrap your mind around a situation. I have had that problem reading a novel or two of Forgotten Realms, not usually one of Ed's, but it's happened. |
We choose to live a lie, when we see with, & not through the eye.
Every decision, no matter the evidence, is a leap of faith; if it were not, then it wouldn't be a choice at all. |
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Merrith
Learned Scribe
135 Posts |
Posted - 20 Sep 2012 : 22:02:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Veritas
On the other hand, Elminster complains about the weakness and pain he's dealt with in his physical form. To me it seems unlikely that he could maintain an elite level of conditioning that would allow him to best a squad of drow warriors.
However El is ever one to buck the odds so I'll just chalk it up to El being El and being "swiftly capable" in dealing death. And hey, he's a divine servitor. Chosen can be as physically resilient as a Rugby player.
I am not saying there is anything wrong with Elminster Enraged's characterization of El's capabilities, only that I find myself having difficulty buying it. Everything described above is internally consistent with its world. After all, Ed created it.
You seem to be forgetting that the battle against the drow took place within the body of the female drow priestess he had taken over, and not his older one. Ed spent pages noting how excited El was to have a body free of those aches and pains that was athletic and could respond so quickly and agilely to his thoughts before that battle ever took place. |
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Veritas
Learned Scribe
209 Posts |
Posted - 20 Sep 2012 : 23:20:59
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To me that is an overly forgiving position. After inhabiting a comparatively enfeebled body it strains [my] credulity that one would instantaneously regain maximum ability. Pretending that muscle memory and reflexes isn't a thing in the Realms (consider that the reflexes of the drow female's body are probably not compatible with the combat mode Elminster engaged in), El would still be comparatively rusty, even in a new fit body. An athlete who recovers from an injury still needs training to regain previous conditioning.
We can wave our hand and say that conditioning doesn't apply to a Chosen of Mystra. They used to get CON Scores of 25 just by becoming chosen after all. However, even a master swordsman in an aged body would not likely be as skillful if his youth was suddenly restored.
Its a fantasy world. Things don't need to make sense. Thats just something that strikes me wrongly. |
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Merrith
Learned Scribe
135 Posts |
Posted - 21 Sep 2012 : 21:04:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Veritas
To me that is an overly forgiving position. After inhabiting a comparatively enfeebled body it strains [my] credulity that one would instantaneously regain maximum ability. Pretending that muscle memory and reflexes isn't a thing in the Realms (consider that the reflexes of the drow female's body are probably not compatible with the combat mode Elminster engaged in), El would still be comparatively rusty, even in a new fit body. An athlete who recovers from an injury still needs training to regain previous conditioning.
We can wave our hand and say that conditioning doesn't apply to a Chosen of Mystra. They used to get CON Scores of 25 just by becoming chosen after all. However, even a master swordsman in an aged body would not likely be as skillful if his youth was suddenly restored.
Its a fantasy world. Things don't need to make sense. Thats just something that strikes me wrongly.
The body wasn't enfeebled at all though, it just had it's original mind burned out. There was nothing wrong with the body itself. I mean it's pure semantics at this point if you think he could attain that level of control quickly, but given he had the aid of silver fire from Symrustar (not to mention her presence to help steady him), and who knows how many years shapeshifting/taking over bodies of all shapes and sizes I didn't find it to be that unreasonable. I'm sure El has studied/seen/performed combat of all types in his 1200+ years in the Realms. If he could manage it in an aching, old body, I'm sure he could manage it fairly quickly in a healthy and vibrant body that was in good health. |
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Elminster Enraged
