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Originally posted by coach

a re-split of Abeir-Toril with Abeir going off and resuming canon from 1480+ and Toril being re-instated to 13?? by Ao?

Abeir represents what is "new"

Toril represents the "classic" OGB feel

would that not appease EVERYONE

and having all the new sourcebooks be like the new Menzo with space for both Abeir and Toril

they could keep the fiction in Abeir (that would appease the oldschool masses who wouldn't have fiction trumping their canon and it would appease the contigent of 4e fans as a continuation of what they newly started playing in)

i've heard some of the 4e WotC folk on here asking for patience etc

unfortunately, once trust is so bitterly and unashamedly betrayed, it puts the victim in a "show me don't tell me" position

so please don't poo-poo us grognards for being cautious, we earned that right quite honestly

i just simply think that WotC has ONLY ONE chance to grab back some marketshare lost to Pathfinder and if most/all of the timeline advances the 1480+ era then the Pathfinder/DnD tipping point will be reinforced not reversed/slowed. It has already gone from a slow trickle (2008-2009) to a gushing pour (2010-2012).

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Originally posted by coach

i've heard some of the 4e WotC folk on here asking for patience etc.

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Orignally posted by coach
a re-split of Abeir-Toril with Abeir going off and resuming canon from 1480+ and Toril being re-instated to 13?? by Ao?

Abeir represents what is "new"

Toril represents the "classic" OGB feel

would that not appease EVERYONE

and having all the new sourcebooks be like the new Menzo with space for both Abeir and Toril

they could keep the fiction in Abeir (that would appease the oldschool masses who wouldn't have fiction trumping their canon and it would appease the contigent of 4e fans as a continuation of what they newly started playing in)

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quote:

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i've heard some of the 4e WotC folk on here asking for patience etc
unfortunately, once trust is so bitterly and unashamedly betrayed, it puts the victim in a "show me don't tell me" position

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Originally posted by coach

a re-split of Abeir-Toril with Abeir going off and resuming canon from 1480+ and Toril being re-instated to 13?? by Ao?

Abeir represents what is "new"

Toril represents the "classic" OGB feel

would that not appease EVERYONE

and having all the new sourcebooks be like the new Menzo with space for both Abeir and Toril

they could keep the fiction in Abeir (that would appease the oldschool masses who wouldn't have fiction trumping their canon and it would appease the contigent of 4e fans as a continuation of what they newly started playing in)

i've heard some of the 4e WotC folk on here asking for patience etc

unfortunately, once trust is so bitterly and unashamedly betrayed, it puts the victim in a "show me don't tell me" position

so please don't poo-poo us grognards for being cautious, we earned that right quite honestly

i just simply think that WotC has ONLY ONE chance to grab back some marketshare lost to Pathfinder and if most/all of the timeline advances the 1480+ era then the Pathfinder/DnD tipping point will be reinforced not reversed/slowed. It has already gone from a slow trickle (2008-2009) to a gushing pour (2010-2012).

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quote:

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Originally posted by coach

a re-split of Abeir-Toril with Abeir going off and resuming canon from 1480+ and Toril being re-instated to 13?? by Ao?

Abeir represents what is "new"

Toril represents the "classic" OGB feel

would that not appease EVERYONE

and having all the new sourcebooks be like the new Menzo with space for both Abeir and Toril

they could keep the fiction in Abeir (that would appease the oldschool masses who wouldn't have fiction trumping their canon and it would appease the contigent of 4e fans as a continuation of what they newly started playing in)

i've heard some of the 4e WotC folk on here asking for patience etc

unfortunately, once trust is so bitterly and unashamedly betrayed, it puts the victim in a "show me don't tell me" position

so please don't poo-poo us grognards for being cautious, we earned that right quite honestly

i just simply think that WotC has ONLY ONE chance to grab back some marketshare lost to Pathfinder and if most/all of the timeline advances the 1480+ era then the Pathfinder/DnD tipping point will be reinforced not reversed/slowed. It has already gone from a slow trickle (2008-2009) to a gushing pour (2010-2012).

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Originally posted by George Krashos

I remain of the view that it really doesn't matter what direction they take and which segment of the fanbase they decide to keep happy. The sole, absolute cast-iron, can't be mucked around with aim of the 5E Realms should be to write a fantastic Campaign Guide and Player's Guide and then a series of products delivered at regular intervals of a similar standard, liberally mixed with lashings of quality DDI realmslore.

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Originally posted by George Krashos

Until then, why don't people focus on talking about the Realms - any edition will do. I'd like to see more discussions and threads at the 'Keep about tidbits of lore and what people have done with them. Write-ups of items, people, places. Some more current clack, etc. etc. That would be miles better than the "The Realms is dead to me, unless ..." comments that proliferate.

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Originally posted by coach

would that not appease EVERYONE

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Originally posted by Jeremy Grenemyer

Nor, IMNSHO, is it true that the influx of Paizo fans consists entirely of disgruntled former Realms fans.

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Originally posted by Matt James

@Razz - The Living Forgotten Realms RPGA campaign brought in a lot of new fans.

As for the topic itself. I instituted a personal goal to not worry about marketshares and business decisions. I try to only focus on making quality stories for the Forgotten Realms. I don't see how invalidating lore even more will fix anything to the point of garnishing good-will. People will always complain and not like aspects of this shared world.

If Ed is behind it, I am behind it. He's heading up the team of all-stars to get this worked out.

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Originally posted by Irennan

That was the 2nd Sundering. Here it is a summary of the 'Sundering(s)' in the Realms.

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Originally posted by Markustay


Unbenowst to them, the magic found precisely what it was looking for in Faerie, and Tintageer sank so that Evermeet could live (its all about 'Balance' - thats another reason why High Magic has 'so high a price').

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I actually think the Elven Sundering was connected (by High Magic) to Ao's Sundering, so although not precisely the same event, they are linked.

The Elven ritual "reached backwords and forwards in time". I have long felt much of Elven High Magic is based upon the butterfly effect - that Elves (and their Fey forbears, who created this type of magic) would alter the past to get a certain result in the future. This is very imprecise, and fraught with peril - you could wind-up with something much worse in the process. You could even obliterate your own past and cease to exist. This is why we rarely here of these types of 'drastic solutions' being used (and they almost always over-shoot the mark).

Getting back to the Sundering: The Elves needed a homeland they could call their own. A refuge away from other races. Their High Magic reached into the past, found Ao's Sundering, and 'shaped' a small portion of it to create Evermeet... IN THE PAST. That way, it would be there thousands of years later when they needed it to be.

Unbenowst to them, the magic found precisely what it was looking for in Faerie, and Tintageer sank so that Evermeet could live (its all about 'Balance' - thats another reason why High Magic has 'so high a price'). In retrospect, nearly every time they used their High Magic for this sort of major tampering, the end result came back and 'bit them in the arse'. The lesson that should be learned there is that you persevere through hard work (as humans do), not through 'shortcuts'. Unfortunately, the Elves seem to forget this lesson every so often (The Dark Disaster, Jhaamdath, The Descent Curse, Chondath, etc).

This is my own take on things, based on available canon, but NOT canon. Elves do not have the actual (deity-level) power needed for much of the sweeping changes they have wrought, which is why I feel they tap into the past to get the solutions they need (which, as I've said, always has consequences). One Sundering, but many, many after-shocks.

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But the creation of this place did not involve rending the world, as the humans imagine. Instead, our ancestors created a concentration of the Weave so powerful that a piece of fair Arvandor became part of Toril, as if it had always been so. By thus altering the creation of the world, our ancestors also changed the history of the world as it had unfolded to that point. Granted, their action might not have altered history all that significantly, since they had simply created an island in the middle of an unexplored ocean—an island hidden from sight by the will of the Seldarine. But change history they did, and the true extent of that change is forever lost to those who followed them into this world.

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Originally posted by Markustay

Also, take into account the lore from The Chronmancer supplement, Ao breaking the Tablets of Fate (and also making folks forget about him), and mages making people forget about Kiaransalee. We have numerous examples of 'changing the past' right in FR lore (without having to go to Ravenloft , where this sort of thing happens all the time). Once you 're-write' the book (of history - there is also the Herald of Mei Lung in Kara-Tur), that doesn't necessarily mean you created a divergent reality. We could just as easily assume that the older path was obliterated to make way for the new.

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Originally posted by Irennan

That was the 2nd Sundering. Here it is a summary of the 'Sundering(s)' in the Realms.

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Originally posted by Markustay

That sucks.

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Originally posted by Markustay

But we already have this.

According to the Grand History of the Realms, pg.11

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But the creation of this place did not involve rending the world, as the humans imagine. Instead, our ancestors created a concentration of the Weave so powerful that a piece of fair Arvandor became part of Toril, as if it had always been so. By thus altering the creation of the world, our ancestors also changed the history of the world as it had unfolded to that point. Granted, their action might not have altered history all that significantly, since they had simply created an island in the middle of an unexplored ocean—an island hidden from sight by the will of the Seldarine. But change history they did, and the true extent of that change is forever lost to those who followed them into this world.

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At least, thats how I interpret that bit. I know George Krashos and I have had this dispute before (that more then one history exists). Official writers tend to be biased in this regard (any mention of making past lore 'non-canon' makes them a bit... emotional). I understand fully why he doesn't like it, but I also still believe it to be so.

Also, take into account the lore from The Chronmancer supplement, Ao breaking the Tablets of Fate (and also making folks forget about him), and mages making people forget about Kiaransalee. We have numerous examples of 'changing the past' right in FR lore (without having to go to Ravenloft , where this sort of thing happens all the time). Once you 're-write' the book (of history - there is also the Herald of Mei Lung in Kara-Tur), that doesn't necessarily mean you created a divergent reality. We could just as easily assume that the older path was obliterated to make way for the new.

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