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coach
Senior Scribe

USA
479 Posts

Posted - 03 Sep 2012 :  22:39:31  Show Profile Send coach a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
a re-split of Abeir-Toril with Abeir going off and resuming canon from 1480+ and Toril being re-instated to 13?? by Ao?

Abeir represents what is "new"

Toril represents the "classic" OGB feel

would that not appease EVERYONE

and having all the new sourcebooks be like the new Menzo with space for both Abeir and Toril

they could keep the fiction in Abeir (that would appease the oldschool masses who wouldn't have fiction trumping their canon and it would appease the contigent of 4e fans as a continuation of what they newly started playing in)

i've heard some of the 4e WotC folk on here asking for patience etc

unfortunately, once trust is so bitterly and unashamedly betrayed, it puts the victim in a "show me don't tell me" position

so please don't poo-poo us grognards for being cautious, we earned that right quite honestly

i just simply think that WotC has ONLY ONE chance to grab back some marketshare lost to Pathfinder and if most/all of the timeline advances the 1480+ era then the Pathfinder/DnD tipping point will be reinforced not reversed/slowed. It has already gone from a slow trickle (2008-2009) to a gushing pour (2010-2012).

Bloodstone Lands Sage

Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
36787 Posts

Posted - 03 Sep 2012 :  22:54:45  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by coach

a re-split of Abeir-Toril with Abeir going off and resuming canon from 1480+ and Toril being re-instated to 13?? by Ao?

Abeir represents what is "new"

Toril represents the "classic" OGB feel

would that not appease EVERYONE

and having all the new sourcebooks be like the new Menzo with space for both Abeir and Toril

they could keep the fiction in Abeir (that would appease the oldschool masses who wouldn't have fiction trumping their canon and it would appease the contigent of 4e fans as a continuation of what they newly started playing in)

i've heard some of the 4e WotC folk on here asking for patience etc

unfortunately, once trust is so bitterly and unashamedly betrayed, it puts the victim in a "show me don't tell me" position

so please don't poo-poo us grognards for being cautious, we earned that right quite honestly

i just simply think that WotC has ONLY ONE chance to grab back some marketshare lost to Pathfinder and if most/all of the timeline advances the 1480+ era then the Pathfinder/DnD tipping point will be reinforced not reversed/slowed. It has already gone from a slow trickle (2008-2009) to a gushing pour (2010-2012).



Gods, I'd love it if they did that... I've been suggesting that for a while.

But from what we've seen, I don't think any rollback of the clock is going to be forthcoming.

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Irennan
Great Reader

Italy
3802 Posts

Posted - 03 Sep 2012 :  22:58:28  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
That would be a split timeline. I've nothing against it, but is definitely not what they're planning...

Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things.

Edited by - Irennan on 03 Sep 2012 23:00:18
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Brian R. James
Forgotten Realms Game Designer

USA
1098 Posts

Posted - 03 Sep 2012 :  23:28:41  Show Profile  Visit Brian R. James's Homepage Send Brian R. James a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by coach

i've heard some of the 4e WotC folk on here asking for patience etc.
I haven't seen any WotC folk post here at Candlekeep in a very long time. You're likely referring to the handful of dedicated freelancers that continue to haunt these halls. I point out the distinction only to remind you that we visit here simply to share our enjoyment of the Forgotten Realms; same as you.

Brian R. James - Freelance Game Designer

Follow me on Twitter @brianrjames
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Tarlyn
Learned Scribe

USA
315 Posts

Posted - 03 Sep 2012 :  23:30:40  Show Profile Send Tarlyn a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Orignally posted by coach
a re-split of Abeir-Toril with Abeir going off and resuming canon from 1480+ and Toril being re-instated to 13?? by Ao?

Abeir represents what is "new"

Toril represents the "classic" OGB feel

would that not appease EVERYONE

and having all the new sourcebooks be like the new Menzo with space for both Abeir and Toril

they could keep the fiction in Abeir (that would appease the oldschool masses who wouldn't have fiction trumping their canon and it would appease the contigent of 4e fans as a continuation of what they newly started playing in)



Something similar would have been my first choice as well, but it has been clearly stated that they are advancing from the current timeline. Also, there are the continuity people that become very upset anytime an alternate timeline solution is mentioned(So, a group of people would be upset).

However, it does sound like they are trying to bring back that classic feel. If you did read the novels at some point, I would recommend at least picking up the sundering series and seeing first hand the direction they are taking.

Also, you might want to check out the sundering panel on youtube. It explains the direction that is being taken.

quote:
i've heard some of the 4e WotC folk on here asking for patience etc
unfortunately, once trust is so bitterly and unashamedly betrayed, it puts the victim in a "show me don't tell me" position


Most of the people actually responsible for 4e have been let go at WotC and the team working on the sundering events only contains Erin M Evans from 4e and I believe she started writing for wizards well after the 4e transition occurred. So, I think it is unfair to blame them for events that they had no control over. The people that have been announced as part of initial meeting on the game design end contains a few 4e champions, but I don't think that they were decision makers during the transition. Also, the actual game design team has not been announced yet. So, I think them asking for our patience is a fair request.

Tarlyn Embersun
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Thrasymachus
Learned Scribe

195 Posts

Posted - 03 Sep 2012 :  23:51:08  Show Profile Send Thrasymachus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by coach

a re-split of Abeir-Toril with Abeir going off and resuming canon from 1480+ and Toril being re-instated to 13?? by Ao?

Abeir represents what is "new"

Toril represents the "classic" OGB feel

would that not appease EVERYONE

and having all the new sourcebooks be like the new Menzo with space for both Abeir and Toril

they could keep the fiction in Abeir (that would appease the oldschool masses who wouldn't have fiction trumping their canon and it would appease the contigent of 4e fans as a continuation of what they newly started playing in)

i've heard some of the 4e WotC folk on here asking for patience etc

unfortunately, once trust is so bitterly and unashamedly betrayed, it puts the victim in a "show me don't tell me" position

so please don't poo-poo us grognards for being cautious, we earned that right quite honestly

i just simply think that WotC has ONLY ONE chance to grab back some marketshare lost to Pathfinder and if most/all of the timeline advances the 1480+ era then the Pathfinder/DnD tipping point will be reinforced not reversed/slowed. It has already gone from a slow trickle (2008-2009) to a gushing pour (2010-2012).


Do it!


Former Forgotten Realms brand manager Jim Butler: "Everything that bears the Forgotten Realms logo is considered canon".
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The Red Walker
Great Reader

USA
3563 Posts

Posted - 03 Sep 2012 :  23:51:45  Show Profile Send The Red Walker a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by coach

a re-split of Abeir-Toril with Abeir going off and resuming canon from 1480+ and Toril being re-instated to 13?? by Ao?

Abeir represents what is "new"

Toril represents the "classic" OGB feel

would that not appease EVERYONE

and having all the new sourcebooks be like the new Menzo with space for both Abeir and Toril

they could keep the fiction in Abeir (that would appease the oldschool masses who wouldn't have fiction trumping their canon and it would appease the contigent of 4e fans as a continuation of what they newly started playing in)

i've heard some of the 4e WotC folk on here asking for patience etc

unfortunately, once trust is so bitterly and unashamedly betrayed, it puts the victim in a "show me don't tell me" position

so please don't poo-poo us grognards for being cautious, we earned that right quite honestly

i just simply think that WotC has ONLY ONE chance to grab back some marketshare lost to Pathfinder and if most/all of the timeline advances the 1480+ era then the Pathfinder/DnD tipping point will be reinforced not reversed/slowed. It has already gone from a slow trickle (2008-2009) to a gushing pour (2010-2012).



Everyone but me I guess....I think it's just too late tp put the genie back in the bottle. I'd love for everything to go back the way it was pre spell plague.

But I inn no way shape or form have any interest in reading any fiction set in Abeir. Ever. Doesn't make me a bad guy, I'm just don't want to.

Now if you reset the clock , keep the fiction in Toril then divorce the novels from canon....that's the winner for most everyone. There is no reason the fiction line, set in Toril as always, can't stand on its own. Same with the game materials, they should be fine without novels following to a t. Then if you read something in a novel you like for your game....great! Use it if you like it, but it's not crammed into everyone's.

A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka

"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -

John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
6657 Posts

Posted - 04 Sep 2012 :  00:51:25  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
What's the saying? You can't please all of the people, all of the time?

The Realms fanbase appears split. There are those who are happy to go forward. There are those who wish to go back to the "good old days" (how anyone could read the "Netheril" boxed set and wax nostalgic about how great FR products were back in the day, escapes me; but I digress).

There has been talk about going back to a 137? DR Realms. I consider that such an initiative is unlikely. The words out of Ed's mouth a scant 6 weeks ago in a video link-up I was fortunate to be privy to, were: "The Realms have always moved forward".

I remain of the view that it really doesn't matter what direction they take and which segment of the fanbase they decide to keep happy. The sole, absolute cast-iron, can't be mucked around with aim of the 5E Realms should be to write a fantastic Campaign Guide and Player's Guide and then a series of products delivered at regular intervals of a similar standard, liberally mixed with lashings of quality DDI realmslore.

I know I can do a 5E Impiltur write-up that would knock the socks of most everyone. I know that, because ... ahem ... I 've done it before. IF WotC make the 5E Realms live and breathe again (Bring back the lore! Bring back the mouse-type!), then it will inspire me to write again for the Realms as the 4E setting didn't.

Doing some recent work for Eric Boyd has rekindled a lot of love for a place I've wandered through for most all of my adult life. It made me realise that there are still so many stories to tell, lore to flesh out, easter eggs to embed and vistas of opportunity to explore. There are so many things that the 5E Realms can offer, even if it is set in the late 1400s DR. I've got a few ideas in that regard going forward. If I get to GEN-CON next year which is my aim, I plan to "talk to the man" and see what can be organised.

Until then, why don't people focus on talking about the Realms - any edition will do. I'd like to see more discussions and threads at the 'Keep about tidbits of lore and what people have done with them. Write-ups of items, people, places. Some more current clack, etc. etc. That would be miles better than the "The Realms is dead to me, unless ..." comments that proliferate.

A wise, heralded writer (no, not the one you think) once commented to me in one of my "Down on the Realms" moments that if the Realms got shut down tomorrow, I had two things that would mean that my Realms days weren't over: a shelf full of products and my imagination. Who needs anything else?

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus

Edited by - George Krashos on 04 Sep 2012 00:53:29
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High

Australia
31701 Posts

Posted - 04 Sep 2012 :  01:58:26  Show Profile Send The Sage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos

I remain of the view that it really doesn't matter what direction they take and which segment of the fanbase they decide to keep happy. The sole, absolute cast-iron, can't be mucked around with aim of the 5E Realms should be to write a fantastic Campaign Guide and Player's Guide and then a series of products delivered at regular intervals of a similar standard, liberally mixed with lashings of quality DDI realmslore.
I think this is largely where I'm starting to find myself.

I mean, I deviated from official Realms canon over 20 years ago with my campaigns. I've got 20+ years worth of homebrew Realmslore that draws inspiration and material from published sources right across the edition-spectrum -- from the earliest articles of Ed's Realms in DRAGON, to the latest material uploaded to the DDI.

I've come too far and invested too much now, to really be set upon just one era or time period. Of course, I have my favourite years of the Realms... we all do, but that hasn't stopped me from taking what I need from other stuff based on either past or future time periods as well.

So, yeah, George's words here really are starting to mirror my own thoughts on the subject. As long as I continue to see quality Realmslore crafted by folk who love the setting as much as I do, then I'll be happy, regardless of what periods it is written for.

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com
-- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct

Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)

"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood

Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15724 Posts

Posted - 04 Sep 2012 :  05:03:14  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
As much as many of us would love precisely that, they've already pretty much stated this wasn't their intention.

Like Ao, Abeir is getting one last 'hurrah', and then drifting off into the sunset (figuratively). We will only see either of them if things go astray again (think of them as the ultimate toolbox).

I second that quote of GK that Sage made. We need to accept that they will be trying to cater to nearly everyone, which means almost no-one will be 100% happy. If they can make most of us mostly happy, thats a feather in their cap (and a bright future for D&D/FR).

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 04 Sep 2012 05:04:18
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Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader

USA
2717 Posts

Posted - 04 Sep 2012 :  07:20:11  Show Profile Send Jeremy Grenemyer a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos

Until then, why don't people focus on talking about the Realms - any edition will do. I'd like to see more discussions and threads at the 'Keep about tidbits of lore and what people have done with them. Write-ups of items, people, places. Some more current clack, etc. etc. That would be miles better than the "The Realms is dead to me, unless ..." comments that proliferate.
This times a thousand.

The Realms source books and novels on my shelf have real value: they inspire creativity and they provide entertainment. Like a good board game, they can be used over and over.

That value isn't reduced simply because WotC does something other than what I want with the Realms.

So, I too would like to read more about what people are doing with the Realms stuff they already have.

As to the OP's question:
quote:
Originally posted by coach

would that not appease EVERYONE
I think you could please some people with that.

But everyone? As a long-time fan of the Realms, I don't think it would.

Despite the "common knowledge" of the internets, it was never as simple as 1E-3E Realms fans on one side and 4E Realms fans on the other. Nor, IMNSHO, is it true that the influx of Paizo fans consists entirely of disgruntled former Realms fans.

Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver).

Edited by - Jeremy Grenemyer on 04 Sep 2012 09:07:15
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Aulduron
Learned Scribe

USA
343 Posts

Posted - 04 Sep 2012 :  09:50:14  Show Profile Send Aulduron a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I thought the Sundering meant the creation of Evermeeet.

"Those with talent become wizards, Those without talent spend their lives praying for it"

-Procopio Septus
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Irennan
Great Reader

Italy
3802 Posts

Posted - 04 Sep 2012 :  10:07:22  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
That was the 2nd Sundering. Here it is a summary of the 'Sundering(s)' in the Realms.

Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things.
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Razz
Senior Scribe

USA
749 Posts

Posted - 04 Sep 2012 :  11:55:41  Show Profile Send Razz a Private Message  Reply with Quote
So, apparently, there's just enough 4e Realms fans to warrant keeping that era? Odd. I would've never expected the 4e Realms fan base to be that large at all.
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Matt James
Forgotten Realms Game Designer

USA
918 Posts

Posted - 04 Sep 2012 :  12:16:55  Show Profile Send Matt James a Private Message  Reply with Quote
@Razz - The Living Forgotten Realms RPGA campaign brought in a lot of new fans.

As for the topic itself. I instituted a personal goal to not worry about marketshares and business decisions. I try to only focus on making quality stories for the Forgotten Realms. I don't see how invalidating lore even more will fix anything to the point of garnishing good-will. People will always complain and not like aspects of this shared world.

If Ed is behind it, I am behind it. He's heading up the team of all-stars to get this worked out.
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Lord Snowblood
Acolyte

Australia
25 Posts

Posted - 04 Sep 2012 :  13:40:11  Show Profile Send Lord Snowblood a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I wonder why WOTC staffers and those who work for them no longer 'haunt these halls'?

[url=http://expensiveautomobile.com/2008-bmw-635d-coupe/]2008 bmw 635d coupe[/url] [url=http://expensiveautomobile.com/2007-bmw-hydrogen-7/]2007 bmw hydrogen 7[/url]
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Irennan
Great Reader

Italy
3802 Posts

Posted - 04 Sep 2012 :  13:52:18  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
According to some people that attended GenCon this year, it was stated there that WotC has at least two employees dedicated to check out this forum, their boards and some other sites for possible input. So while they don't post here, they do haunt these halls...

Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things.

Edited by - Irennan on 04 Sep 2012 13:53:14
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Mr Dark
Seeker

50 Posts

Posted - 04 Sep 2012 :  14:52:41  Show Profile Send Mr Dark a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I started in the Realms in the early-90's when I picked up a used Greybox. My first deviation from 'canon' came with re-imagining the Time of Troubles and now the published Realms are far different from where mine are at. I use the source-books to fill in needed gaps and for inspiration.

I have long seen the Realms as existing in at least three timelines: Mine, Source-Books and Novels. I never saw any need for events in the latter two timelines to interfere with how my game is run unless it was an idea I really wanted to use.

As far as the 4e changes go I found them interesting in idea but lacking in execution. The 5e changes seem to be the best compromise to fix what was done and I am hoping everyone can find some common ground on what they enjoy, this hobby is far too divisive these days.

If I were to 'fix' FR I would do something like a 'Crisis on Infinite Torils'. This would reset the timeline, keep the better ideas and bring FR back to it's former glory. As well, you would could have a helluva story.

Anyway that's my 2 cents.

Canon stops where the table begins.
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Dark Wizard
Senior Scribe

USA
830 Posts

Posted - 04 Sep 2012 :  17:33:56  Show Profile Send Dark Wizard a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy Grenemyer

Nor, IMNSHO, is it true that the influx of Paizo fans consists entirely of disgruntled former Realms fans.



Perhaps not solely Realms fans, but Paizo definitely has their share of potentially disgruntled 3E/3.5E fans, many now converted over to Pathfinder. This built a critical mass that allowed Paizo to expand their products and even implement their version of the living campaign Pathfinder Society.

quote:
Originally posted by Matt James

@Razz - The Living Forgotten Realms RPGA campaign brought in a lot of new fans.

As for the topic itself. I instituted a personal goal to not worry about marketshares and business decisions. I try to only focus on making quality stories for the Forgotten Realms. I don't see how invalidating lore even more will fix anything to the point of garnishing good-will. People will always complain and not like aspects of this shared world.

If Ed is behind it, I am behind it. He's heading up the team of all-stars to get this worked out.



I think fans are only a part of the equation in WotC's mind nowadays. The resistance they encountered during the 4E phase possibly encouraged them to take more conciliatory approach with all factions of the fanbase. The 4E transition is where they had a detailed record via the internet of the emergence of anti-fans, in many cases converted from former-fans.

If all WotC had to deal with were fans and non-fans, this wouldn't be a problem. The anti-fan uses the internet and other interactions to denounce products and recommend the products of competitors. In a sense WotC's divisive tone during the 4E transition set the standard which created their vocal critics and handed over market share to other companies.

WotC doesn't need a repeat of 4E, instead now with former 4E fans as their new anti-fans against 5E. Though an element of that sentiment is unavoidable.

Edited by - Dark Wizard on 04 Sep 2012 17:36:43
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15724 Posts

Posted - 04 Sep 2012 :  17:53:07  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan

That was the 2nd Sundering. Here it is a summary of the 'Sundering(s)' in the Realms.
I actually think the Elven Sundering was connected (by High Magic) to Ao's Sundering, so although not precisely the same event, they are linked.

The Elven ritual "reached backwords and forwards in time". I have long felt much of Elven High Magic is based upon the butterfly effect - that Elves (and their Fey forbears, who created this type of magic) would alter the past to get a certain result in the future. This is very imprecise, and fraught with peril - you could wind-up with something much worse in the process. You could even obliterate your own past and cease to exist. This is why we rarely hear of these types of 'drastic solutions' being used (and they almost always over-shoot the mark).

Getting back to the Sundering: The Elves needed a homeland they could call their own. A refuge away from other races. Their High Magic reached into the past, found Ao's Sundering, and 'shaped' a small portion of it to create Evermeet... IN THE PAST. That way, it would be there thousands of years later when they needed it to be.

Unbenowst to them, the magic found precisely what it was looking for in Faerie, and Tintageer sank so that Evermeet could live (its all about 'Balance' - thats another reason why High Magic has 'so high a price'). In retrospect, nearly every time they used their High Magic for this sort of major tampering, the end result came back and 'bit them in the arse'. The lesson that should be learned there is that you persevere through hard work (as humans do), not through 'shortcuts'. Unfortunately, the Elves seem to forget this lesson every so often (The Dark Disaster, Jhaamdath, The Descent Curse, Chondath, etc).

This is my own take on things, based on available canon, but NOT canon. Elves do not have the actual (deity-level) power needed for much of the sweeping changes they have wrought, which is why I feel they tap into the past to get the solutions they need (which, as I've said, always has consequences). One Sundering, but many, many after-shocks.

*edited for grammatical reasons.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 04 Sep 2012 20:25:47
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Gustaveren
Learned Scribe

Denmark
197 Posts

Posted - 04 Sep 2012 :  17:58:10  Show Profile  Visit Gustaveren's Homepage Send Gustaveren a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay


Unbenowst to them, the magic found precisely what it was looking for in Faerie, and Tintageer sank so that Evermeet could live (its all about 'Balance' - thats another reason why High Magic has 'so high a price').



I like that part, that creates moral depth to a creation story
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Irennan
Great Reader

Italy
3802 Posts

Posted - 04 Sep 2012 :  17:58:48  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
I actually think the Elven Sundering was connected (by High Magic) to Ao's Sundering, so although not precisely the same event, they are linked.

The Elven ritual "reached backwords and forwards in time". I have long felt much of Elven High Magic is based upon the butterfly effect - that Elves (and their Fey forbears, who created this type of magic) would alter the past to get a certain result in the future. This is very imprecise, and fraught with peril - you could wind-up with something much worse in the process. You could even obliterate your own past and cease to exist. This is why we rarely here of these types of 'drastic solutions' being used (and they almost always over-shoot the mark).

Getting back to the Sundering: The Elves needed a homeland they could call their own. A refuge away from other races. Their High Magic reached into the past, found Ao's Sundering, and 'shaped' a small portion of it to create Evermeet... IN THE PAST. That way, it would be there thousands of years later when they needed it to be.

Unbenowst to them, the magic found precisely what it was looking for in Faerie, and Tintageer sank so that Evermeet could live (its all about 'Balance' - thats another reason why High Magic has 'so high a price'). In retrospect, nearly every time they used their High Magic for this sort of major tampering, the end result came back and 'bit them in the arse'. The lesson that should be learned there is that you persevere through hard work (as humans do), not through 'shortcuts'. Unfortunately, the Elves seem to forget this lesson every so often (The Dark Disaster, Jhaamdath, The Descent Curse, Chondath, etc).

This is my own take on things, based on available canon, but NOT canon. Elves do not have the actual (deity-level) power needed for much of the sweeping changes they have wrought, which is why I feel they tap into the past to get the solutions they need (which, as I've said, always has consequences). One Sundering, but many, many after-shocks.


^I like your take on this, but IMO altering the past even a little to bring big changes in the present would be much more difficult than directly and massively altering the present (and those would both be god-like tasks).

Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things.

Edited by - Irennan on 04 Sep 2012 17:59:20
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15724 Posts

Posted - 04 Sep 2012 :  20:41:53  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I've covered this before.

Suppose you were about to confront some sort of uber-lich. A battle you are pretty sure you (and your army?) would lose.

Suppose 500 years ago, the lich's mother and father met for the first time. They were at a party in Waterdeep, and 'daddy' was smitten with her. Grabbing a pair of drinks from a passing waiter, he goes to her and introduces himself, offering her the drink. This is how it 'all went down' - they never knew that their child would grow up and become one of the biggest threats to Faerūn.

Back to the present: Some High Elves decide fighting said lich would be far too risky, so they cast a High Magic Ritual to remove him. The spell reaches back in time, and the lich's father accidentally spills the drinks on the women before he even has a chance to speak, and she leaves in huff. The lich disappears from the present.

Lets go back to the past for a moment: the lich's father spilled the drinks because a visiting elven dignitary bumped his arm. A week later, at another party he sees the 'woman of his dreams' with another man. He is drunk, and also spots the elf that bumped him. In a momentary fit of rage, he walks up behind that elf and stabs him. He is arrested and put to death.

That Elf was King Zoar of Evermeet. Relations between humans and elves sour, and war breaks out. Elven history is changed (for the worst) forever.

In the original history, Zoar's arm came close to the arm of the lich's father while he was speaking animatedly with several others. It came close, but did no harm, and several alliances had formed and good relations proceeded. All the spell did was 'nudge' the arm of an elf ever-so-slightly to achieve the desired result of 'erasing the threat of the lich'.

That is not powerful magic - its a cantrip. All High magic does is use the 'butterfly affect' to achieve a desired result. The magic itself simply finds the precise moment in time when the least resistance to said result is available. In the case of Evermeet, it could have been as simple as a certain pebble tumbling in a precise path to cause a chain of events that lead to Evermeet being formed where it was.

Its actually a type of 'Fate Magic', which shoe-horns nicely with some other things WotC is doing now.


"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 04 Sep 2012 20:42:33
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Irennan
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Posted - 04 Sep 2012 :  20:49:43  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Yes, I get what you mean and -as I said- I like it. However it is my impression that affecting something that has already happened in the past when you are in the present -which would create something akin to an 'alternative timeline' (it would render yours different from the 'original', and nothing says that the latter isn't still there running)- would be way more difficult and risky than affecting the present itself. Even tho the effective result (in the past) would be that of a cantrip, it is the act of affecting (in any way) the past your very reality descends from that looks like a god-like task. Personally, I doubt that even High Magic could have such power (it could potentially annihilate or manipulate anything).

Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things.

Edited by - Irennan on 04 Sep 2012 20:52:28
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Markustay
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Posted - 04 Sep 2012 :  21:35:43  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
But we already have this.

According to the Grand History of the Realms, pg.11
quote:
But the creation of this place did not involve rending the world, as the humans imagine. Instead, our ancestors created a concentration of the Weave so powerful that a piece of fair Arvandor became part of Toril, as if it had always been so. By thus altering the creation of the world, our ancestors also changed the history of the world as it had unfolded to that point. Granted, their action might not have altered history all that significantly, since they had simply created an island in the middle of an unexplored ocean—an island hidden from sight by the will of the Seldarine. But change history they did, and the true extent of that change is forever lost to those who followed them into this world.

At least, thats how I interpret that bit. I know George Krashos and I have had this dispute before (that more then one history exists). Official writers tend to be biased in this regard (any mention of making past lore 'non-canon' makes them a bit... emotional). I understand fully why he doesn't like it, but I also still believe it to be so.

Also, take into account the lore from The Chronmancer supplement, Ao breaking the Tablets of Fate (and also making folks forget about him), and mages making people forget about Kiaransalee. We have numerous examples of 'changing the past' right in FR lore (without having to go to Ravenloft , where this sort of thing happens all the time). Once you 're-write' the book (of history - there is also the Herald of Mei Lung in Kara-Tur), that doesn't necessarily mean you created a divergent reality. We could just as easily assume that the older path was obliterated to make way for the new.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 04 Sep 2012 22:34:24
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Wooly Rupert
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Posted - 04 Sep 2012 :  21:41:12  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

Also, take into account the lore from The Chronmancer supplement, Ao breaking the Tablets of Fate (and also making folks forget about him), and mages making people forget about Kiaransalee. We have numerous examples of 'changing the past' right in FR lore (without having to go to Ravenloft , where this sort of thing happens all the time). Once you 're-write' the book (of history - there is also the Herald of Mei Lung in Kara-Tur), that doesn't necessarily mean you created a divergent reality. We could just as easily assume that the older path was obliterated to make way for the new.



Where? Where do we have canon references to the past being changed?

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combatmedic
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Posted - 04 Sep 2012 :  22:48:31  Show Profile Send combatmedic a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan

That was the 2nd Sundering. Here it is a summary of the 'Sundering(s)' in the Realms.




'Progressive themes' sounds very fishy, but Erik de Bie seems like a good guy.


I would have simply stated 'greater variety in characters' , instead of using an objectionable and politically charged word like'progressive.'


YMMV= Your Mileage May Vary. I'm putting it here so I don't have to type it in every other post. :)
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Markustay
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Posted - 04 Sep 2012 :  22:52:27  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Wow, I had very long post here in response, and CK ate it. Usually when I hit 'back' what I typed is restored, but not this time.

That sucks.

All I got to say (at this time) now is that I modified my above post, because I couldn't find what I needed in Evermeet (related stuff, but nothing that said precisely what I wanted). I'll just let the above excerpt stand on it own (for now).

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

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Jeremy Grenemyer
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Posted - 05 Sep 2012 :  00:05:13  Show Profile Send Jeremy Grenemyer a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

That sucks.
I feel your pain. For big posts I always try to write it in a word processor first.

Markus, I hope you find the info on time-altering in the Realms. I'd like to read what you have to say.

Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver).
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Irennan
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Posted - 05 Sep 2012 :  01:44:44  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

But we already have this.

According to the Grand History of the Realms, pg.11
quote:
But the creation of this place did not involve rending the world, as the humans imagine. Instead, our ancestors created a concentration of the Weave so powerful that a piece of fair Arvandor became part of Toril, as if it had always been so. By thus altering the creation of the world, our ancestors also changed the history of the world as it had unfolded to that point. Granted, their action might not have altered history all that significantly, since they had simply created an island in the middle of an unexplored ocean—an island hidden from sight by the will of the Seldarine. But change history they did, and the true extent of that change is forever lost to those who followed them into this world.

At least, thats how I interpret that bit. I know George Krashos and I have had this dispute before (that more then one history exists). Official writers tend to be biased in this regard (any mention of making past lore 'non-canon' makes them a bit... emotional). I understand fully why he doesn't like it, but I also still believe it to be so.

Also, take into account the lore from The Chronmancer supplement, Ao breaking the Tablets of Fate (and also making folks forget about him), and mages making people forget about Kiaransalee. We have numerous examples of 'changing the past' right in FR lore (without having to go to Ravenloft , where this sort of thing happens all the time). Once you 're-write' the book (of history - there is also the Herald of Mei Lung in Kara-Tur), that doesn't necessarily mean you created a divergent reality. We could just as easily assume that the older path was obliterated to make way for the new.



Oh, didn't recall that passage. Well your take on High Magic is cool and adheres nicely to canon, then. It's no surprise however that it has so (too) many possibilities: modifying something through its past could make you nearly all-powerful as long as that particular thing is concerned.

Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things.

Edited by - Irennan on 05 Sep 2012 01:54:19
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Shemmy
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Posted - 05 Sep 2012 :  03:55:47  Show Profile  Visit Shemmy's Homepage Send Shemmy a Private Message  Reply with Quote
If it meant that as the OP suggested, I'd buy it sight unseen.

The current direction is such that it's hazy if I'll buy into it at this point, and I may simply end up walking away from the setting as something I play or pay attention to depending on how much they're willing to move back on the 4e changes and retcons (having skipped 4e FR out of dislike for those changes as I did).

While FR was the non-planar setting I started D&D with in 2001 or thereabouts, I've never written for it (unless putting a cleric of Lathander in the Outlands Gatetown of Ecstasy in Dragon mag counts, heh). And so even if FR continues with the 4e changes more or less intact, moving forward without me, 5e's chances of hooking me on writing or playing aren't affected in the slightest. Especially if they bring back the Great Wheel.

Shemeska the Marauder, King of the Crosstrade; voted #1 best Arcanaloth in Sigil two hundred years running by the people who know what's best for them; chant broker; prospective Sigil council member next election; and official travel agent for Chamada Holiday specials LLC.

Edited by - Shemmy on 05 Sep 2012 11:38:00
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