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Galuf the Dwarf
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USA
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Posted - 06 Mar 2012 :  02:58:43  Show Profile Send Galuf the Dwarf a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
Okay, so we can essentially confirm the following were formally mortal:
- Azuth
- Bane
- Bhaal
- Cyric
- Finder Wvyernspur
- Fzoul Chembryl (post-Spellplague)
- Gargauth (if you count being a devil as mortal)
- Kelemvor
- Myrkul
- Mystra (in her Midnight incarnation)
- Obould Many-Arrows (post-Spellplague)
- Uthgar
- Velsharoon

Some that are believed to be former mortals:
- Deep Duerra
- Gwaeron Windstrom
- Shevarash
- The Red Knight
- Torm

Can anyone confirm sources that confirm the latter, or even more than that? I swore I saw an entry in the Grand History of the Realms that confirmed Deep Duerra, but I can't vouch for that. That, and I'm a little busy with household responsibilities as of late, especially since my brother getting married next month.

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Aulduron
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Posted - 06 Mar 2012 :  03:26:30  Show Profile Send Aulduron a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Forgotten Realms Wiki confirms Sheverash, if that's good enough for you.

If it interests you, Tchazzar insists he was a deity for awhile. Kiaransalee was once mortal.

"Those with talent become wizards, Those without talent spend their lives praying for it"

-Procopio Septus
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Dennis
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Posted - 06 Mar 2012 :  03:40:06  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote

You forgot Karsus. He ascended to become the god of magic, albeit for just a very short time.

Every beginning has an end.
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sfdragon
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Posted - 06 Mar 2012 :  03:52:19  Show Profile Send sfdragon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
savras


and umm possibly

Jergal and hte reason is NDA

why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power


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Galuf the Dwarf
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Posted - 06 Mar 2012 :  04:16:51  Show Profile Send Galuf the Dwarf a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sfdragon

savras


and umm possibly

Jergal and hte reason is NDA



*sighs* So much lore denied by NDAs... I hate it.

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The Sage
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Posted - 06 Mar 2012 :  04:53:41  Show Profile Send The Sage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
There's been speculation in the past as to whether Mask was a mortal before his divine ascension.

I've not read it, but I have learned that Shadowrealm suggests that Mask was actually not a mortal, but someone with a rather unexpected pedigree.

Can someone familiar with this novel either confirm or deny this?

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Wooly Rupert
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Posted - 06 Mar 2012 :  05:11:30  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Mystra 1.0 was also a former mortal. We know very little about her, pre-apotheosis.

The Red Knight is a former mortal.

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Markustay
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Posted - 06 Mar 2012 :  05:12:52  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The Red Knight is mortal - it was confirmed in the GHotR, IIRC.*

In another thread someone put a name to Mask's mortal persona, so I assume it is canon now.

The second incarnation of Shevarash was also definitey mortal, but I don't recall where that lore may be found (LK will probably know).

Valkur was also a mortal (although my assumption is that all demi-powers would obviously be former mortals).



*Wooly beat me to it.

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Edited by - Markustay on 06 Mar 2012 05:18:47
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Aulduron
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Posted - 06 Mar 2012 :  05:21:26  Show Profile Send Aulduron a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I read Shadowrealm, but I'm not sure if he was mortal. I do know that he was a lesser being and got his divinity from another god.

Speaking of Mask, Erevis, Riven and Rivalen were all mortals who ascended.

"Those with talent become wizards, Those without talent spend their lives praying for it"

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Aulduron
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Posted - 06 Mar 2012 :  05:25:03  Show Profile Send Aulduron a Private Message  Reply with Quote
A second incarnation of Shevarash? I didn't know that. Maybe that will explain an elf from the days of dragon rule saying "by the Black Archer!" more than 20,000 years before the Elven Court Slaughter.

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Markustay
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Posted - 06 Mar 2012 :  05:29:55  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well, that was kinda my point.

The only way that errant entry in that short story could be possible is that the 'Black Archer' is a recurring Elven deity. A mortal who arises to the position when needed. There may have been a first 'Back Archer' that was truly one of the Seldarine, but there had to be at least two to hold that title, to make everything work.

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Marc
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Posted - 06 Mar 2012 :  05:30:36  Show Profile Send Marc a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Deneir, Siamorphe

Deep Duerra ascended in Underspires around -2000 DR

.
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Aulduron
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Posted - 06 Mar 2012 :  05:32:24  Show Profile Send Aulduron a Private Message  Reply with Quote
At least I'm not the only one who noticed that.

"Those with talent become wizards, Those without talent spend their lives praying for it"

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Aes Tryl
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Posted - 06 Mar 2012 :  07:02:51  Show Profile  Visit Aes Tryl's Homepage Send Aes Tryl a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Mask was apparently the offspring of an avatar of Shar manifested to give birth to her herald. His "mortal" name was Lessinor. This also appears in Shadowrealm, book 3 of the twilight trilogy. But his origin is semi-divine in the first place. He is as much mortal as the seven sisters are I suppose.
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Aes Tryl
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Posted - 06 Mar 2012 :  07:10:14  Show Profile  Visit Aes Tryl's Homepage Send Aes Tryl a Private Message  Reply with Quote
If exarchs count then Rivalen Tanthul and Drasek Riven are godlings themselves. Also if Garguath, a displaced archdevil, is to be considered "mortal", then wouldn't Asmodeus count as well. My sentiment is that the Garguath example probably does not apply.

Is mystra 1.0's avatar Mryjala Darkeyes name the one the scribe named? I am not sure if that is her avatar or her mortal form.
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Marc
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Posted - 06 Mar 2012 :  11:53:07  Show Profile Send Marc a Private Message  Reply with Quote
If you count devils then Auril - fae, Akadi, Grumbar, Istishia, Kossuth, Ubtao - primordials, possibly Malar, Eldath, Lurue - fae, and Umberlee was a kraken.

.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
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Posted - 06 Mar 2012 :  11:55:25  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Aes Tryl

Is mystra 1.0's avatar Mryjala Darkeyes name the one the scribe named? I am not sure if that is her avatar or her mortal form.



We don't have a name for the mortal Mystra 1.0.

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Kilvan
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Posted - 06 Mar 2012 :  13:36:56  Show Profile Send Kilvan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Wasn't Tempus a mortal who defeated Garagos in fair combat (or was he a Primordial?)
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sfdragon
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Posted - 06 Mar 2012 :  14:11:09  Show Profile Send sfdragon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
was TEmpus mortal.... or was he a deity of another ancient pantheon.... dont know Kilvan.

why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power


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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High

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Posted - 06 Mar 2012 :  14:12:22  Show Profile Send The Sage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Aes Tryl

Is mystra 1.0's avatar Mryjala Darkeyes name the one the scribe named? I am not sure if that is her avatar or her mortal form.

I don't think that was actually her mortal name, but, rather, a guise Mystra 1.0 adopted for the sake of watching the youngling Elminster.

I seem to remember Ed touching on this briefly... in The Annotated Elminster.

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Icelander
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Posted - 06 Mar 2012 :  14:38:28  Show Profile  Visit Icelander's Homepage Send Icelander a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Instead of looking for gods who were once mortal, I'd focus on establishing which one weren't.

In my opinion, that's a pretty short list.

Selune
Shar
Earthmother (Chauntea)*
Stormstar**
Mystryl
Grumbar
Akadi
Itishia
Kossuth

This is assuming that any being who can die counts as 'mortal', thus including fey and all sorts of 'monstrous' races. Whether to count Moander and Ghaunadaur as 'once mortal' is debatable. They may be ascended oozes or biological proccesses, but in that I doubt they were ever a particular individual micro-organism, I'm willing to give them a pass and call them more apotheosis of certain forces than ascended mortals.

*With any other nature gods either being aspects of her grown into independent personhood or lesser beings ascended to godhood with her sponsorship (and vesting a portion of her essence in them). This applies to Silvanus (I'd imagine he was once an Arahkor) and the rest of them.
**Original personification of fury, destruction and disasters. Any gods with such portfolios today, however, I'd rate as pretty likely to be mortals who were rewarded with some of it or, alternatively, seized some portfolios. I think Talos (under another name, for he's had many), for example, might well have been a jodunbrud chief in the Primordial wars, identified so strongly with the Stomstar in the eyes of his kindred and subsequently other mortals, that he began to accumulate its powers (I believe the original Stormstar, like all the original divine forces, was more motivation than consciousness).

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Aes Tryl
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Posted - 06 Mar 2012 :  15:13:18  Show Profile  Visit Aes Tryl's Homepage Send Aes Tryl a Private Message  Reply with Quote
@Icelander

I am sorry but I have seen this entity Stormstar being thrown around a lot recently, but I just can't place which source he/it comes from. Could you please enlighten me =)?
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Markustay
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Posted - 06 Mar 2012 :  15:28:08  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Grumbar, Istishia, Akadi, and Kossuth are all primordials.

Ergo your list grows even shorter, Icelander.

Not exactly proof, but that definitely supports my claim that ALL deities are ascended mortals (like Mystara's Immortals).

I use 'gods' to describe anything higher then the mortal tier, so you could say some gods may not have been mortal (Archfey and Archfiends, Elemental Lords, Primordials, Elder Evils, etc), but deities should be.

Shar & Selune are special cases - I think they are either 'demoted' Primordials, or they deliver their divinity to mortal followers through secondary sources (Mask and Mystra, for example).

I don't know what a 'Stormstar' is, but I have some weird new theories about the Earthmother (I'm starting to think we've been looking at the wrong Faerunian God for her).

So yeah, gods could be from any uber-group, but deities all appear to be mortals who underwent an apotheosis (self-induced, spontaneous, or sponsored).

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 06 Mar 2012 15:29:30
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Matt James
Forgotten Realms Game Designer

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Posted - 06 Mar 2012 :  16:48:27  Show Profile Send Matt James a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I would argue that Primordials are "Gods" in their own right--merely of the elemental sort. They are separate, but of equal power and influence.
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Icelander
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Posted - 06 Mar 2012 :  17:25:15  Show Profile  Visit Icelander's Homepage Send Icelander a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Aes Tryl

@Icelander

I am sorry but I have seen this entity Stormstar being thrown around a lot recently, but I just can't place which source he/it comes from. Could you please enlighten me =)?


Well, Stormstar is an alias of modern Talos, Talos is listed as having been created by Shar in her battle with Selune, but I somehow remember a less convoluted source.

Can't place it now. Stormstar Requiem is a 4e thing, I think it comes from Brian R. James' or Gray Richardson's notes, from which I may have gotten Stormstar.

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Markustay
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Posted - 06 Mar 2012 :  17:52:23  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Matt James

I would argue that Primordials are "Gods" in their own right--merely of the elemental sort. They are separate, but of equal power and influence.
I said this as well.

But I'm starting to get the impression that primordials require a 'go between' - a deity that acts on their behalf. It would be like a business arrangement - the deity getting some of the worship (power) for themselves, and the Primordial getting the rest. Or, it could be something 'darker' - what if primordials are interested in mortal worship for the power alone, but no interest in maintaining a 'godly domain'? Perhaps the deal is that the deity gets the soul of the faithful after death, but must pass-on all the energy from that worship to the primordial while the faithful are still alive.

The only hole in that theory is that it would then be in the best interest of the deity to insure the faithful die quickly (then again... some gods have been known to stupidly sacrifice tons of their faithful...)

For instance, in the Horde material, it says Tuigan worship an 'air power' named Teylas, and the text goes on to say this is Akadi. However, not only is the power MALE and the name sounds more like Talos, but when you read Horselords it sounds precisely like Talos being described (Yamun Khahan was clearly a Chosen of Teylas). While this could just be an error (or not), and whoever wrote the Horde box got the two deities (with similar portfolios) mixed-up, I'd like to think it was something deeper.

Think about it - its almost like a 'marriage' between an ascended mortal (deity) and a primordial, and in nearly every case, its male/female - Mystra with Azuth & Shavras (and even Elminster), Shar with Mask, Grumbar and Earthmother, Istishia with Valkur (although Umberlee might argue with that), etc...

It almost seems that primordials sponsor some mortals to godhood, just to handle their day-to-day worship chores. They let their 'underlings' run things for them (like executives for a big corporation). And sometimes, those deities rebel and turn on their 'betters' (which could have been the reason behind the Godswar). In fact, I may be getting to close to the 'secret' of why the Weave requires a mortal consciousness to 'reboot' it.

EDIT:
I just realized, by my own logic, Jergal's probably a chick.

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Edited by - Markustay on 06 Mar 2012 17:58:43
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Lord Karsus
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Posted - 06 Mar 2012 :  20:29:00  Show Profile Send Lord Karsus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

The only way that errant entry in that short story could be possible is that the 'Black Archer' is a recurring Elven deity. A mortal who arises to the position when needed. There may have been a first 'Back Archer' that was truly one of the Seldarine, but there had to be at least two to hold that title, to make everything work.

-Could have also theoretically reference Eilistraee, since her schtick used to be a bow and she is a huntress. It's still problematic since she forsook the bow after accidentally shooting Corellon Larethian circa -30,000 (where the myth is dated), but it's something.

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Icelander
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Posted - 06 Mar 2012 :  20:33:48  Show Profile  Visit Icelander's Homepage Send Icelander a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay


For instance, in the Horde material, it says Tuigan worship an 'air power' named Teylas, and the text goes on to say this is Akadi. However, not only is the power MALE and the name sounds more like Talos, but when you read Horselords it sounds precisely like Talos being described (Yamun Khahan was clearly a Chosen of Teylas). While this could just be an error (or not), and whoever wrote the Horde box got the two deities (with similar portfolios) mixed-up, I'd like to think it was something deeper.


I like to imagine that the author of the Horde, in accordance with what were then established company policies, used real-world Tengrism mythology without repeating any names directly.

Thus;
Teylas = Tengri = Lord of the Sky (lit. name 'sky')
Etugen = Eje = Mother Earth.

At the time, the closest Faerunian powers to the descriptions of the two deities must have been the elemental powers of air and earth. On the other hand, the worship of the Tuigan is far enough removed from the elemental powers in question so that I would believe it likely to create from their essence aspects to correspond to it and/or provide a 'deific-shaped' hole into which a mortal might step and assume the divinity as a subordinate of the elemental powers.

On the other hand, it is by no means certain that Teylas was always as central to the Tuigan as he is now, while they are united under a man who believes stronglly in that god. In fact, Chanar Ong Kho appears to swear by different gods and the Turko-Mongol shamanism this is based on was an older faith than the 'new-fangled' Tengrism. It is will possible that Teylas was only a minor deity on the steppes once, with a god of the sun as the most powerful one.*

Of course, Etugen-worship was clearly originally worship of the Earthmother, but as that deity became limited to cultivated lands, she must have stopped being able to respond to wilder worshippers. In my cosmology, this happened without her being able to stop it, because the farmers who formed most of her worshippers shaped her personality and nature, but in an alternate one, she somehow decided to fade into a more limited power.

I do find it somewhat strange that Akadi and Grumbar were the first to pounce on such an unattended group of worshippers. They didn't strike me as being that focused on mortals. But I suppose the extremely elemental nature of the Tuigan worship, with sacrifices made to the appropriate elements associated with the gods and such, might have attracted them and made it harder for other powers to answer these prayers without them.

In any event, the 'sex' of elemental beings like Akadi and Grumbar doesn't strike me as important here. We know them as female and male because that's what Faerunian worshippers think of them. The actual powers are not dioecious by their innate nature. And, even if we believe, as I do, that the expectations of worshippers and their belief shapes the nature and personality of powers, this effect, if any, is still going to depend on all their worshippers.

There is absolutely no guarantee that the Faerunian worshippers are closer to the true nature of these powers than worshippers in Kara-Tur, Osse or elsewhere. Or on the Hordelands, where it looks like there is quite a lot of worship. I'm comfortable with there being a male and female version of Grumbar and Akadi and I don't think that this is an unreasonable thing at all. This is how gods seem to work on Toril.

After all, when Lathander's priests start worshipping a radically different version of him under another name and with another dogma, he doesn't cut off their spells or cast them out. Ditto for Ilmater. And almost any god. They'll allow worshippers to think almost what they like as long as their worshipping.**

*If people like the Tripartite Sun theory, the one preceding Aumanator, the god of the high sun. Ironically, the author of Horselords calls the Tuigan sun god Tengris, even closer to the Mongol sky-god. It makes more sense when you keep in mind that the proto-Altaic root word for 'God' is 'te©Æri' and all gods thus were named '[attribute] tengri' or something similar. Also, the various Turkic peoples worshipped a god of the sky or the sun or both, with many shared attributes.
**The fact that in my cosmological view, the god might find that it has become more and more like the majority of their worshippers believe them to be is beside the point. It's an effective system of godly evolution, ensuring that there will be gods for everything that people find important enough to call on them for and that gods that neither have any relevance in people's life any more nor the potential to change with their worshippers are eventually forgotten.

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Wooly Rupert
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Posted - 06 Mar 2012 :  21:15:13  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus

quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

The only way that errant entry in that short story could be possible is that the 'Black Archer' is a recurring Elven deity. A mortal who arises to the position when needed. There may have been a first 'Back Archer' that was truly one of the Seldarine, but there had to be at least two to hold that title, to make everything work.

-Could have also theoretically reference Eilistraee, since her schtick used to be a bow and she is a huntress. It's still problematic since she forsook the bow after accidentally shooting Corellon Larethian circa -30,000 (where the myth is dated), but it's something.



It could be that Black Archer was a title/office held by another member of the Seldarine, who either lost it or passed it on to Shevarash when he had his bad day. So not as much a recurring deity, as a position that can be filled by whoever is needed.

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Alystra Illianniis
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Posted - 07 Mar 2012 :  00:09:45  Show Profile Send Alystra Illianniis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'm inclined to agree with LK there. It would actually make sense if it was her originally. The only other one I can think of who might have held that title is Rilifane(a slim possibility as a woodland god), or more likely Solanor. Solanor is also a hunter who uses a bow, and was supposedly romantically linked with eilistraee as one time. Perhaps the title was used for both of them?

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Wooly Rupert
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Posted - 07 Mar 2012 :  00:27:20  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'm not contesting that it was Eilistraee, I'm just suggesting that it may be that this is an office that's been passed around, instead of there being an anti-drow archer deity before Shevarash, who used the same schtick but has since disappeared.

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