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The Red Walker
Great Reader
USA
3567 Posts |
 Posted - 05 Sep 2012 : 04:08:07
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quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
But we already have this.
According to the Grand History of the Realms, pg.11quote:
But the creation of this place did not involve rending the world, as the humans imagine. Instead, our ancestors created a concentration of the Weave so powerful that a piece of fair Arvandor became part of Toril, as if it had always been so. By thus altering the creation of the world, our ancestors also changed the history of the world as it had unfolded to that point. Granted, their action might not have altered history all that significantly, since they had simply created an island in the middle of an unexplored ocean—an island hidden from sight by the will of the Seldarine. But change history they did, and the true extent of that change is forever lost to those who followed them into this world.
At least, thats how I interpret that bit. I know George Krashos and I have had this dispute before (that more then one history exists). Official writers tend to be biased in this regard (any mention of making past lore 'non-canon' makes them a bit... emotional). I understand fully why he doesn't like it, but I also still believe it to be so.
Also, take into account the lore from The Chronmancer supplement, Ao breaking the Tablets of Fate (and also making folks forget about him), and mages making people forget about Kiaransalee. We have numerous examples of 'changing the past' right in FR lore (without having to go to Ravenloft , where this sort of thing happens all the time). Once you 're-write' the book (of history - there is also the Herald of Mei Lung in Kara-Tur), that doesn't necessarily mean you created a divergent reality. We could just as easily assume that the older path was obliterated to make way for the new.
Oh, didn't recall that passage. Well your take on High Magic is cool and adheres nicely to canon, then. It's no surprise however that it has so (too) many possibilities: modifying something through its past could make you nearly all-powerful as long as that particular thing is concerned.
Markus....that's like the second time on here today you've been labeled cool......what's up with that? |
A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka
"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -
John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3806 Posts |
Posted - 05 Sep 2012 : 10:42:08
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Well, his idea is cool IMO: reaching in the past to alter small things which would affect the present accordingly to the purpose of the caster is way more flavourful than 'BOOM' curses/explosions/etc...
Also it doesn't seem to contradict canon, so why not...? |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 05 Sep 2012 : 11:56:40
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| A problem with the Sundering and 4e is that the elves transplanted a piece of Arvandor. Evermeet shifted to the Feywild, and Arvandor is in the Astral Sea?! |
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The Red Walker
Great Reader
USA
3567 Posts |
Posted - 05 Sep 2012 : 13:35:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Quale
A problem with the Sundering and 4e is that the elves transplanted a piece of Arvandor. Evermeet shifted to the Feywild, and Arvandor is in the Astral Sea?!
Nothing AO can't handle.... |
A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka
"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -
John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
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infoleather
Acolyte
USA
3 Posts |
Posted - 06 Sep 2012 : 04:35:39
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| That did not stop me to take what I need on the basis of whether it is past or future periods, as well as other things. |
When you good collection of Slim Fit Black Leather Blazer Jackets it gives you confidence to attend to every occasion and cwmalls.com helps to dress up in the best possible way. Black Leather Motorcycle Jackets For Women is the best fashion for the forthcoming year. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 06 Sep 2012 : 06:33:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Quale
A problem with the Sundering and 4e is that the elves transplanted a piece of Arvandor. Evermeet shifted to the Feywild, and Arvandor is in the Astral Sea?!
Their GPS was broken?
Yeah, I came to the same conclusion. In my Realms/cosmology, Arvandor is a land within the Feywild, and was once a part of Faerie, but it is now a separate Realm.
The lack of consistency in 4e's lore is... well.. we have 5e coming soon. That answers that. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 08 Sep 2012 : 05:25:23
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| Arvandor is in the Outer Planes, which is separate from the Astral Plane. The Outer Planes are where most of the deities' realms are. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 09 Sep 2012 : 11:13:16
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| Astral Plane in no place, it's a void that exists between all the Outer Planes and the Prime, in 4e they re-made Arvandor into an earthmote. |
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Thauranil
Master of Realmslore
India
1591 Posts |
Posted - 09 Sep 2012 : 13:09:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Quale
Astral Plane in no place, it's a void that exists between all the Outer Planes and the Prime, in 4e they re-made Arvandor into an earthmote.
That actually sounds pretty cool. It seems appropriate for the elven heaven to glide above all the rest. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 09 Sep 2012 : 19:02:17
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I guess we found the 'High' Elves.
I always knew they looked down at everyone else, but thats ridiculous. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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The Red Walker
Great Reader
USA
3567 Posts |
Posted - 09 Sep 2012 : 19:16:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I guess we found the 'High' Elves.
I always knew they looked down at everyone else, but thats ridiculous.
I hope that concept is Sundered! If I want to utilize or visit Earthmotes.....I'll hop thru a portal |
A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka
"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -
John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 09 Sep 2012 : 21:14:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Quale
Astral Plane in no place, it's a void that exists between all the Outer Planes and the Prime, in 4e they re-made Arvandor into an earthmote.
I stand somewhat corrected. I looked at the FRGC for 4e (I don't play the game much, but I buy some of the source/guidebooks for references), and it lists the domains, if you will, in the Astral Plane, and Arvandor is one of them. In the 3.5e (or maybe it was 3e), though, Arvandor is listed as being in the Outer Planes. But even in 4e, I did not see where it said Arvandor became an earthmote. Could you please give me the source? |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 09 Sep 2012 : 23:59:12
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well, not exactly an earthmote, an archipelago of six islands, 400 miles wide, that floats in a silvery substance
source: 4e Manual of the Planes
quite different than what's in e.g. Planes of Chaos |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 10 Sep 2012 : 02:13:44
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| Okay, I see. Thanks for the clarification. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Mournblade
Master of Realmslore
USA
1287 Posts |
Posted - 10 Sep 2012 : 17:36:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Matt James
@Razz - The Living Forgotten Realms RPGA campaign brought in a lot of new fans.
As for the topic itself. I instituted a personal goal to not worry about marketshares and business decisions. I try to only focus on making quality stories for the Forgotten Realms. I don't see how invalidating lore even more will fix anything to the point of garnishing good-will. People will always complain and not like aspects of this shared world.
If Ed is behind it, I am behind it. He's heading up the team of all-stars to get this worked out.
And posts like this are what brings my faith back to the creators. |
A wizard is Never late Frodo Baggins. Nor is he Early. A wizard arrives precisely when he means to... |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2428 Posts |
Posted - 11 Sep 2012 : 00:24:42
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Against the shadow?
quote:
Originally posted by coach
a re-split of Abeir-Toril with Abeir going off
BTW. Abeir-Toril means "cradle of life", right? I always wondered which part was which...  |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 11 Sep 2012 : 19:32:08
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| They can get rid of the 'cradle', but don't throw the baby out with the bath-water. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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The Red Walker
Great Reader
USA
3567 Posts |
Posted - 12 Sep 2012 : 04:01:14
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quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
Against the shadow?
quote:
Originally posted by coach
a re-split of Abeir-Toril with Abeir going off
BTW. Abeir-Toril means "cradle of life", right? I always wondered which part was which...
I thought Abeir-Toril loosely meant...first alphabetically, by any means necessary |
A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka
"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -
John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
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Veritas
Learned Scribe
209 Posts |
Posted - 18 Sep 2012 : 19:08:16
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| Some time ago there was a Marvel/DC crossover where the Specter pulls apart Marvel Earth and DC Earth. That is pretty much exactly what I see Ao doing. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 18 Sep 2012 : 20:22:37
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He did it to earth-1 and earth-2, back in DC comics, a long time before that.
I believe he was trying much the same during the Crisis events as well. Seems to be a full-time job for him, keeping worlds apart.
The scene (in the DC/Marvel crossover) where all the magical-types of both worlds try to summon the Spectre, and Constantine says, "Does anyone else think this is a BAD idea?" is one of my favorite comic scenes ever. 
Anyhow, usually when this happens - worlds merge and then un-merge - at least one planet gets it's history partially re-written (a reboot), but I don't think we are getting anything nearly that drastic with FR. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Veritas
Learned Scribe
209 Posts |
Posted - 18 Sep 2012 : 20:39:47
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Those were some FANTASTIC images.
In my mind (I know it won't come out this way), I see Ao in his nondescript old man form pulling the worlds apart, Spectre style, amidst a maelstrom of cosmic energy with the tablets of fate reconstituting and writing themselves above his shoulders. Meanwhile Bane is seeing this and pees his pantaloons. ;) |
Edited by - Veritas on 18 Sep 2012 20:40:30 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 01 Dec 2012 : 18:28:58
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I came across this line on page 210 of the 4e FRCG:
quote:
Streetwise DC 30: Melauthaur is actually a runescribed dracolich who continues to strengthen his undead powers. Sometimes he sends his dragon subjects to distant parts of Returned Abeir, apparently looking for clues regarding a relic that was lost during the war between the Estelar and the Dawn Titans in ancient days. Called The Shadow of Ao, the relic is said to have the power to twin the world anew.
The Shadow of Ao? Twin the world anew? Methinks we have a winner! |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 01 Dec 2012 18:29:11 |
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Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader
USA
2717 Posts |
Posted - 01 Dec 2012 : 20:30:21
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| Nice catch Markustay! I wonder if this means we'll get some Returned Abeir lore finally. |
Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver). |
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coach
Senior Scribe
USA
479 Posts |
Posted - 05 Dec 2012 : 18:58:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I came across this line on page 210 of the 4e FRCG:
quote:
Streetwise DC 30: Melauthaur is actually a runescribed dracolich who continues to strengthen his undead powers. Sometimes he sends his dragon subjects to distant parts of Returned Abeir, apparently looking for clues regarding a relic that was lost during the war between the Estelar and the Dawn Titans in ancient days. Called The Shadow of Ao, the relic is said to have the power to twin the world anew.
The Shadow of Ao? Twin the world anew? Methinks we have a winner!
well now reinforced my idea with canon
you cant beat that |
Bloodstone Lands Sage |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2428 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jan 2013 : 13:46:40
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quote:
Originally posted by The Red Walker
quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
BTW. Abeir-Toril means "cradle of life", right? I always wondered which part was which...
I thought Abeir-Toril loosely meant...first alphabetically, by any means necessary
Ah, found this. Both was covered by Jeff Grubb in the mailing list, here. |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jan 2013 : 15:41:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I came across this line on page 210 of the 4e FRCG:
quote:
Streetwise DC 30: Melauthaur is actually a runescribed dracolich who continues to strengthen his undead powers. Sometimes he sends his dragon subjects to distant parts of Returned Abeir, apparently looking for clues regarding a relic that was lost during the war between the Estelar and the Dawn Titans in ancient days. Called The Shadow of Ao, the relic is said to have the power to twin the world anew.
The Shadow of Ao? Twin the world anew? Methinks we have a winner!
Wow, this just goes to show how fed up I was when 4e came out. This is a cool find. Wouldn't it be interesting if this item were located/hidden in Sigil and a certain former goddess of deceptions had been sent by Ao to retrieve it? |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Mirtek
Senior Scribe
595 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jan 2013 : 19:13:59
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quote:
Originally posted by coach
would that not appease EVERYONE
No, not all. It would alienate the fans of "once story, one canon, one realms" (as Eric put it).
Multiple dimension would be my worst nightmare come true and forever kill the realms for me.
The one realms currently having an incarnation I loathe can be fixed over time when the realms progress and turn again into something I like.
But if they split up the Realms like that they crossed a line that they can never get back behind.
quote:
Originally posted by The Red Walker
Now if you reset the clock , keep the fiction in Toril then divorce the novels from canon....that's the winner for most everyone.
I also disagree with that. IMHO non-canon novels are partly responsible for the weak sales of Eberron novels compared to FR novels.
Non-canon novels are glorified fan-fiction, of that I can get plenty on the net for free. I want novels to tell me stories that really happen in the setting and advance the setting (whether small way or big way)
quote:
Originally posted by Quale
A problem with the Sundering and 4e is that the elves transplanted a piece of Arvandor. Evermeet shifted to the Feywild, and Arvandor is in the Astral Sea?!
Maybe it was first part of the feywild and later the seldarine shifted it to the astral sea to hang out with the other deities. When the elves took Evermeet it was before the seldarine shifted it and thus it wen't back to the last location it remembered |
Edited by - Mirtek on 03 Jan 2013 19:27:03 |
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jan 2013 : 07:49:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Mirtek
Maybe it was first part of the feywild and later the seldarine shifted it to the astral sea to hang out with the other deities. When the elves took Evermeet it was before the seldarine shifted it and thus it wen't back to the last location it remembered
It's possible it moved around. Arvandor was first a giant realm, in 4e I guess it means from Elemental Chaos. |
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore
1536 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jan 2013 : 08:14:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Veritas
Some time ago there was a Marvel/DC crossover where the Specter pulls apart Marvel Earth and DC Earth. That is pretty much exactly what I see Ao doing.
Ironically, Spectre's not even that highly ranked among the angels. Michael swats him out of Heaven, and Lucifer calls him a "stupid bugger". |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jan 2013 : 13:28:55
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There are a LOT of worlds in the universe. AFAIK, Spectre only concerns himself with Earth. I'd have to agree that makes him 'a local'.
On the other hand, when he pushed the worlds apart, he was saving entire universes (he has done it several times now), including pushing apart the Marvel and DC universes (thus ending the Amalgam comics line). I guess saving the universe in comics amounts to the same thing it does in FR - you get no respect.
You know what was even cooler, when he and the Living Tribunal were both working together to keep the two universe from falling apart. Man, I LOVE comics. 
I was describing what happened in 4e (setting-wise) over on the Paizo forums (because there were a couple of misconceptions), and the best way I could find to describe Abeir was the D&D universe equivalent of the 'city dump'. Its where all the odd bits go when the WotC doesn't want to use them anymore, but they don't want to just obliterate them, either (just in case). Thinking more on it, I think 'public storage' may have been better, because thats where you stick crap you don't want to look at, but for whatever reason you can't bring yourself to throw away.
I wonder if somewhere in the multiverse there are auctions for abandoned 'storage worlds'. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 04 Jan 2013 13:31:11 |
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What if the Sundering meant:
