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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
 Posted - 02 Oct 2012 : 17:30:29
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I may have hit/missed with allowing women to stand alone in my work on the Amazon-like women of Ixinos in the Forgotten Realms; but when I picture the women of that place, I picture athletes; not body-builders.
Also, there is a flip side to women being "independent" of men...it honestly doesn't work well. Men need women too...so there is always a bond between the sexes...it just needs to be much more level.
My favorite example of women in the Forgotten Realms revolves around the Elven women of the Realms who seem to be just as influential and equal to the men of their race...even sliding to superior in Drow Elven culture.
The original Dragonlance Trilogy had a great example of a strong woman...two actually...but both were still seen as somewhat "in need" of a man to make them who they were. Kitiara was one of my favorite characters of all time in truth...and LaDonna of the Black Order was awesome! |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Sightless
Senior Scribe
USA
608 Posts |
Posted - 02 Oct 2012 : 18:04:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
How about the (male) knight shows up to rescue the princess, and finds her already 'rescued' and in the arms of a female hero?
'Tis been done in fantasy novels, albeit not that often.
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
I haven't read all of Mistborn (I do like Vin so far), so don't apply this statement to that, but I'd caution against stripping gender identifiers from a female character in order to make the character "heroic"--that's just as bad as applying male identifiers. A heroic biologically-female-but-neutral-gendered character is not a "female hero."
Vin wasn't stripped of female identifiers. She's full of them. When I mentioned that at times people forgot that she's a lady and not a man, it's because rarely do females engage in combats with Allomancers in the open, or anyone else for that matter. Most Allomancers prefer to work in secret, and fight behind the veil of shadows. Vin, on the other hand, is fine with fighting in both worlds: shadows and light. And there aren't really that many Allomancers in Scadrial; and only one other known Mistborn---Lady Shan.
As Sanderson peeled Vin's personality in Books 2 and 3 more, we get to see how feminine she is in almost every way.
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
Rawn does very interesting things by turning gender expectations on their head. In her world, women occupy the elevated state of men (and vice versa) in our world. I have yet to read all those, though.
Rawn's depiction of women is mostly fine. But admittedly, there are times when I think it borders on being over the top; to the point that women become worse then D&D's drow priestesses.
See there in lyes part of my problem. I don't want to make women heros men, which is what sometimes happens in fantasy, and scifi. One can have a strong women, and still have her be a women. I prefer women herons that strike a balance between being independent and still sometimes having to lean on someone else, which is exactly how I like my male heros as well. Now, don't get me wrong, I have nothing against the female warrior and the male caster, combination, or the various combinations there of, I enjoyed it both in FR and in Shadowrun, but in both cases, the female characters have points where they need support from others and I like that. They can't do it all, even if they think they are supposed to, or want to. And Errick, I' gladly tell you anything you want to know, I just hate to completely railroad this scroll to do it. |
We choose to live a lie, when we see with, & not through the eye.
Every decision, no matter the evidence, is a leap of faith; if it were not, then it wouldn't be a choice at all. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 02 Oct 2012 : 19:30:50
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I fail to see why, as you noted, "female characters who need support from others" CAN'T be heroes. Male or female, a hero can not succeed without the aid of others. Ever heard of supporting characters? |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 02 Oct 2012 : 19:37:24
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In the RW we have come to a point in our tech where two females no longer need a male to reproduce. I would think that in magical fantasy setting, their should be some spell that would allow one female to impregnate her partner (and now some truly gawd-awful anime comes to mind). On the other hand, it shouldn't be that simple for two men to have children (just like in our RW) - one would would have to use magic to spend at least nine months as a female to carry the child.
Then again, we have humanoids having children with reptiles, so I guess we should just throw the book of logic right out the window.
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
I may have hit/missed with allowing women to stand alone in my work on the Amazon-like women of Ixinos in the Forgotten Realms; but when I picture the women of that place, I picture athletes; not body-builders.
Also, there is a flip side to women being "independent" of men...it honestly doesn't work well. Men need women too...so there is always a bond between the sexes...it just needs to be much more level.
My favorite example of women in the Forgotten Realms revolves around the Elven women of the Realms who seem to be just as influential and equal to the men of their race...even sliding to superior in Drow Elven culture.
The original Dragonlance Trilogy had a great example of a strong woman...two actually...but both were still seen as somewhat "in need" of a man to make them who they were. Kitiara was one of my favorite characters of all time in truth...and LaDonna of the Black Order was awesome!
But your Ixinos is built on a foundation of women who originally fled 'the world of men', for various (good) reasons. I picture a more liberal attitude begin to form over time, and perhaps even a schism between the 'fundamentalists' and the 'revisionists'.
The females born on Ixinos probably have an anti-male sentiment hammered into them (along the lines of "we don't need them!"), but once some of them begin interacting with the outside world, nature will take its course and many of them will adjust their attitudes accordingly. Since Ixinos isn't completely isolationist, there is no way for them to keep their culture 'pure'. With each generation they become more cosmopolitan, and will begin to question their founding traditions/mores.
Regardless, females from Ixinos (in the 1e/2e/3e era) will not be the norm in FR. I agree with Erik whole-heartedly on this point - female heroes should be portrayed simply as heroes, and NOT heroes in spite of them being female.
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"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 02 Oct 2012 : 19:58:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
My favorite example of women in the Forgotten Realms revolves around the Elven women of the Realms who seem to be just as influential and equal to the men of their race...
Despite my dislike towards elven race in general, I have to agree that elven society appears to have gender equality in almost all things.
Another example is Thay. With some very rare exceptions, Thayans do not discriminate on gender, only on race. A full-blooded Mulan commoner is more likely to rise to Red Wizard-hood than a Rashemi-looking rich merchant. Incidentally, in the latest Council, almost half of the zulkirs were females.
Of course, you'd probably see more villains in Thay than heroes, regardless of gender. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Sightless
Senior Scribe
USA
608 Posts |
Posted - 02 Oct 2012 : 20:09:46
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| Yes, but in Thay they might be considered heros. By the way have they writin a book where a Thayan was the main character? I mean something besides the Lich that's currently in charge, his name escapes me for the moment, largely because I'd like to forget what's become of the place. |
We choose to live a lie, when we see with, & not through the eye.
Every decision, no matter the evidence, is a leap of faith; if it were not, then it wouldn't be a choice at all. |
Edited by - Sightless on 02 Oct 2012 20:21:26 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 02 Oct 2012 : 20:19:29
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There was a short-story revolving around Szass Tam, and a near-love affair he was having. It seems to be common-place for Red Wizards to use their apprentices as 'sex toys'.
Of course, while the 'norm' would be male wizards taking advantage of female apprentices, I could also see the reverse, and I could also easily see a lot of homosexual/bisexual encounters of this nature. After all, its a about power, not the sex itself (something even the most neutral of Red Wizards crave).
So you do have some of the male-orientedness in Thayan society, but I think its the way they are meant to be a counter-point to the witches of Rashemen. We wouldn't want every FR culture to behave precisely the same.
Also, Thayans come from a Mulan heritage, who themselves come from an Egyptian (and Mesopotamian) ancestry. While also male-dominated societies, we do have examples of female Pharaohs (Cleopatra being the most notable example, but there was at least one other IIRC). This would indicate that while not the norm, women with strong personalities can rise to the top, regardless of what their society's norms are. Another classic example - completely unrelated to the Mulan/Egyptians - would be Joan of Arc.
Since FR society in-general is far more liberal when it comes to sexual orientation, we can see how there would be far more of these 'exceptional women' rising to the top, because there are far more opportunities for them to do so.
This doesn't mean that there still won't be men who hold it against them - there will always be those jealous types who have to pick on someone's differences (prejudice) to make themselves feel better about their own shortcomings. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 02 Oct 2012 20:22:01 |
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Sightless
Senior Scribe
USA
608 Posts |
Posted - 02 Oct 2012 : 20:28:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
I fail to see why, as you noted, "female characters who need support from others" CAN'T be heroes. Male or female, a hero can not succeed without the aid of others. Ever heard of supporting characters?
Robert Schwartz described it this way, "there is a tendency to misunderstand exactly what it means to be a heroin in a novel these days. Some authors seem to think that when creating a character of either sex, that they should remove any element of weakness, by making there character rigidly independent the hyper extreme of self-reliance, they have created a hero, or a heroin. Nothing could be further from the truth. Perhaps they should take a look back at early heros that so much of the modern conceptualization is based on and realize that often the consequence of strict adherence to independence is a cardboard cut out that is so removed from reality that is nothing short of dull"(found in the misunderstanding os sex and gender chapter II by Barker, et, al. 2008). |
We choose to live a lie, when we see with, & not through the eye.
Every decision, no matter the evidence, is a leap of faith; if it were not, then it wouldn't be a choice at all. |
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Sightless
Senior Scribe
USA
608 Posts |
Posted - 02 Oct 2012 : 20:33:03
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Szass Tam!
That's the fellows name, I remembered there was an apendige in there somewhere. So, nothing on anybody else? |
We choose to live a lie, when we see with, & not through the eye.
Every decision, no matter the evidence, is a leap of faith; if it were not, then it wouldn't be a choice at all. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 02 Oct 2012 : 20:42:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
There was a short-story revolving around Szass Tam, and a near-love affair he was having. It seems to be common-place for Red Wizards to use their apprentices as 'sex toys'.
Are you referring to Red Ambition? I don't know where you got that impression. Frodyne was hardly Szass Tam's lover. He even subjected her to 'eternal punishment.'
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Of course, while the 'norm' would be male wizards taking advantage of female apprentices...[snip]
Heh. You should read Lynn Abbey's The Simbul's Gift. See how the then Zulkir of Illusion Mythrellan treated her male apprentice, who happened to be the Simbul's ex. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 02 Oct 2012 : 20:47:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Sightless
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
I fail to see why, as you noted, "female characters who need support from others" CAN'T be heroes. Male or female, a hero can not succeed without the aid of others. Ever heard of supporting characters?
Robert Schwartz described it this way, "there is a tendency to misunderstand exactly what it means to be a heroin in a novel these days. Some authors seem to think that when creating a character of either sex, that they should remove any element of weakness, by making there character rigidly independent the hyper extreme of self-reliance, they have created a hero, or a heroin. Nothing could be further from the truth. Perhaps they should take a look back at early heros that so much of the modern conceptualization is based on and realize that often the consequence of strict adherence to independence is a cardboard cut out that is so removed from reality that is nothing short of dull"(found in the misunderstanding os sex and gender chapter II by Barker, et, al. 2008).
If you can give me an example of a heroine or hero who does not get help from others, then I'd rest my case. There's no such thing as a completely self-reliant hero, whatever the gender is. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 02 Oct 2012 : 20:50:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Sightless
Szass Tam!
That's the fellows name, I remembered there was an apendige in there somewhere. So, nothing on anybody else?
Szass Tam is the main villain in The Haunted Lands trilogy by Richard Lee Byers, and Aoth Fezim (also a Thayan) is the main 'hero.'
There's some kind of an on-going sequel to it: The Brotherhood of the Griffon series by the same author, featuring Aoth and his Brotherhood. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36798 Posts |
Posted - 02 Oct 2012 : 22:03:58
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Sightless
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
I fail to see why, as you noted, "female characters who need support from others" CAN'T be heroes. Male or female, a hero can not succeed without the aid of others. Ever heard of supporting characters?
Robert Schwartz described it this way, "there is a tendency to misunderstand exactly what it means to be a heroin in a novel these days. Some authors seem to think that when creating a character of either sex, that they should remove any element of weakness, by making there character rigidly independent the hyper extreme of self-reliance, they have created a hero, or a heroin. Nothing could be further from the truth. Perhaps they should take a look back at early heros that so much of the modern conceptualization is based on and realize that often the consequence of strict adherence to independence is a cardboard cut out that is so removed from reality that is nothing short of dull"(found in the misunderstanding os sex and gender chapter II by Barker, et, al. 2008).
If you can give me an example of a heroine or hero who does not get help from others, then I'd rest my case. There's no such thing as a completely self-reliant hero, whatever the gender is.
How about any Mary Sue? |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 02 Oct 2012 : 22:37:07
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| Conan |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Sightless
Senior Scribe
USA
608 Posts |
Posted - 02 Oct 2012 : 22:52:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Sightless
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
I fail to see why, as you noted, "female characters who need support from others" CAN'T be heroes. Male or female, a hero can not succeed without the aid of others. Ever heard of supporting characters?
Robert Schwartz described it this way, "there is a tendency to misunderstand exactly what it means to be a heroin in a novel these days. Some authors seem to think that when creating a character of either sex, that they should remove any element of weakness, by making there character rigidly independent the hyper extreme of self-reliance, they have created a hero, or a heroin. Nothing could be further from the truth. Perhaps they should take a look back at early heros that so much of the modern conceptualization is based on and realize that often the consequence of strict adherence to independence is a cardboard cut out that is so removed from reality that is nothing short of dull"(found in the misunderstanding os sex and gender chapter II by Barker, et, al. 2008).
If you can give me an example of a heroine or hero who does not get help from others, then I'd rest my case. There's no such thing as a completely self-reliant hero, whatever the gender is.
A supporting character does not necesarily help out the main character, they can be merely on for the ride. This is something that some critics say about Drizzt in later novels, especially in the Pirate King and later, all the other supporting characters are simply plot devices, not there to support the main character. Upon reading the Pirate King and the first in the Never Winter cycle, I am not entirely sure of this one way or the other. I can't however, discard the argument entirely out of hand though. The same goes for Dr. Gransome in Shadowrun, and Mr. Fatcher in the other worlds series. These are just a few examples I can think of off the top of my head, the former two might be a Mary Sue? I'll need to look that one up. Yes, Markustay, conan does fit that description rather well. So does Janet, last name escapes me from the ship that sang author.
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We choose to live a lie, when we see with, & not through the eye.
Every decision, no matter the evidence, is a leap of faith; if it were not, then it wouldn't be a choice at all. |
Edited by - Sightless on 02 Oct 2012 22:55:21 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31727 Posts |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31727 Posts |
Posted - 03 Oct 2012 : 02:11:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
@Sage re: Wonder Woman: My concern is thus. Having Diana not have to be born of a man is a really cool feminist statement. It says that women don't really need men in order to have what they want in life. The new origin says the opposite: as awesome as the Amazons are, they still can't be happy without a man's seed, as it were. Which is a problematic statement.
I'll admit, I hadn't quite thought of it that way.
But it does remind me of the debates about having a strong male lead in the previous rendition of the proposed Wonder Woman television series. One of the themes for Diana's character, was that she was supposedly being written as a character desperate to find the "perfect" man for her unusual life. And I remember thinking at that point that I likely wouldn't be watching the series. I didn't want a television series that focused on Diana's apparent endless quest for love. I wanted a television series that explored the true depths of Diana's character... and showing that she can run completely solo without the need to define her life by chasing after the "perfect man." |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Sightless
Senior Scribe
USA
608 Posts |
Posted - 03 Oct 2012 : 02:22:06
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Conan
Queen/Red Sonja.
I don't know about the movie, but in the book Red Sonja, she needed Dalffo's help as he knew where the Fortress of Aldenjandalo was. He should have been in the movie, he was the boy prince's bodyguard with the bone club and the knives. He was the "lug" of the series. Of course they might have taken that part out of the movie. I usually don't watch/listen to film adaptions as I'm usually disapointed. |
We choose to live a lie, when we see with, & not through the eye.
Every decision, no matter the evidence, is a leap of faith; if it were not, then it wouldn't be a choice at all. |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 03 Oct 2012 : 02:28:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Conan
I'd hardly call Conan a "hero"...or the "good guy"...but he is obviously a protagonist. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 03 Oct 2012 : 19:05:46
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Heroes need supporting characters.
In the books, Conan did most of his stuff on his own, yes, but there were times when he needed to bring in specialist help or team up with other characters (the ghost of Belit, for instance) in order to overcome a foe. It's particularly apparent in the movies.
In the Red Sonja movie, as awesome as Sonja could be at times, she still needed muscle-bound Conan--er, I mean, "derivative character played by Arnold"--to come in and save/help her.
In the Lord of the Rings, Frodo would have got nowhere without Sam, and Aragorn needed Legolas and Gimli.
The only source I can think of where heroes didn't need supporting characters to do their thing was in the classic works of Homer. Achilles did all his stuff in opposition to other characters, and his only real supporting character/friend (Patrocles) spurred him on by getting killed.
What we should be talking about is this: how much support do supporting characters offer male heroes vs. how much they support female heroes?
The Conan vs. Red Sonja example is a good one.
In the original Conan movie, Conan has a bunch of supporting characters who (with the exception of cutting him down from a tree at one point and nursing him back to health) are largely just kind of there. They help a little, but you get the sense that Conan could have done everything without them.
In the Red Sonja movie, by contrast, the Conan-character is constantly intervening in battles that Red Sonja has, and he's majorly propping her up. (And of course there's that whole "I will yield to any man who defeats me in a duel!" subplot--let's not even talk about that.)
I think there is a tendency in fantasy (and in literature in general) to present men as more self-sufficient and self-determined than women. Now I happen to think it's true (in the real world) that women are more conditioned (by which I mean taught/expected) to operate at their best in relation to others, while men are conditioned to operate at their best solo. Whether this is a natural fact about women/men or just the way our society handles gender is another discussion, and whether it should hold true in the Realms is another.
@Sage re Wonder Woman and her supposed "endless quest for love": Agreed. The "quest for love" should not be what defines any character, much less a female character. This is not to say that "wanting to be in love and happy" isn't a worthy goal or even a quest, but it's pretty cliche when a female character's motivation is this. Or when a romantic relationship becomes the main focus of a female character's plot arc.
Let's look at how I handle female heroes in my Realms novels.
Arya (the female lead in Ghostwalker) is in the city of Quaervarr on a mission for Silverymoon. She develops a deep emotional connection with the male lead (the titular ghostwalker), but he never really becomes her priority in the story--she spends the whole time working toward her original goal. If anything, her safety and their relationship becomes a more significant part of the ghostwalker's arc.
The Fox-at-Twilight (female lead of Depths of Madness and a significant part of Eye of Justice) has a particular quest and sticks to it. She has a deeply sensual nature and can't help being drawn to other characters, but relationships take a back seat. (To an extent, this is why she doesn't have much in the way of long term relationships--she doesn't make intimacy a priority.)
Myrin (female lead in the Shadowbane series) conceives a deep connection to Kalen (the male lead) the instant they meet, but being with him isn't her main goal. In the first book (Downshadow, she does fall prey a little bit to that "fantasy princess" motivation, but she realizes that it isn't going to work out that way--not while Kalen is a full-fledged hero and she's not. It isn't until they are characters on equal footing that they can have a relationship built on mutual respect and trust, and even now (three books in), they're not to that point. In Myrin's case, "love" takes a backseat to the real demands of her quest.
This is how I think female heroes should handle romance. It can be extremely important (Arya), of minor consequence (Fox-at-Twilight), or somewhere in between (Myrin), but in very few cases should it be the main focus/motivating factor for the character.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Sightless
Senior Scribe
USA
608 Posts |
Posted - 03 Oct 2012 : 20:18:56
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
Heroes need supporting characters.
In the books, Conan did most of his stuff on his own, yes, but there were times when he needed to bring in specialist help or team up with other characters (the ghost of Belit, for instance) in order to overcome a foe. It's particularly apparent in the movies.
In the Red Sonja movie, as awesome as Sonja could be at times, she still needed muscle-bound Conan--er, I mean, "derivative character played by Arnold"--to come in and save/help her.
In the Lord of the Rings, Frodo would have got nowhere without Sam, and Aragorn needed Legolas and Gimli.
The only source I can think of where heroes didn't need supporting characters to do their thing was in the classic works of Homer. Achilles did all his stuff in opposition to other characters, and his only real supporting character/friend (Patrocles) spurred him on by getting killed.
What we should be talking about is this: how much support do supporting characters offer male heroes vs. how much they support female heroes?
The Conan vs. Red Sonja example is a good one.
In the original Conan movie, Conan has a bunch of supporting characters who (with the exception of cutting him down from a tree at one point and nursing him back to health) are largely just kind of there. They help a little, but you get the sense that Conan could have done everything without them.
In the Red Sonja movie, by contrast, the Conan-character is constantly intervening in battles that Red Sonja has, and he's majorly propping her up. (And of course there's that whole "I will yield to any man who defeats me in a duel!" subplot--let's not even talk about that.)
Wait... you mean that made one statement made in an arena fight, a subplot to the entire movie! Yeah, don't watch film adaptions of novels.
I think there is a tendency in fantasy (and in literature in general) to present men as more self-sufficient and self-determined than women. Now I happen to think it's true (in the real world) that women are more conditioned (by which I mean taught/expected) to operate at their best in relation to others, while men are conditioned to operate at their best solo. Whether this is a natural fact about women/men or just the way our society handles gender is another discussion, and whether it should hold true in the Realms is another.
@Sage re Wonder Woman and her supposed "endless quest for love": Agreed. The "quest for love" should not be what defines any character, much less a female character. This is not to say that "wanting to be in love and happy" isn't a worthy goal or even a quest, but it's pretty cliche when a female character's motivation is this. Or when a romantic relationship becomes the main focus of a female character's plot arc.
Let's look at how I handle female heroes in my Realms novels.
Arya (the female lead in Ghostwalker) is in the city of Quaervarr on a mission for Silverymoon. She develops a deep emotional connection with the male lead (the titular ghostwalker), but he never really becomes her priority in the story--she spends the whole time working toward her original goal. If anything, her safety and their relationship becomes a more significant part of the ghostwalker's arc.
The Fox-at-Twilight (female lead of Depths of Madness and a significant part of Eye of Justice) has a particular quest and sticks to it. She has a deeply sensual nature and can't help being drawn to other characters, but relationships take a back seat. (To an extent, this is why she doesn't have much in the way of long term relationships--she doesn't make intimacy a priority.)
Myrin (female lead in the Shadowbane series) conceives a deep connection to Kalen (the male lead) the instant they meet, but being with him isn't her main goal. In the first book (Downshadow, she does fall prey a little bit to that "fantasy princess" motivation, but she realizes that it isn't going to work out that way--not while Kalen is a full-fledged hero and she's not. It isn't until they are characters on equal footing that they can have a relationship built on mutual respect and trust, and even now (three books in), they're not to that point. In Myrin's case, "love" takes a backseat to the real demands of her quest.
This is how I think female heroes should handle romance. It can be extremely important (Arya), of minor consequence (Fox-at-Twilight), or somewhere in between (Myrin), but in very few cases should it be the main focus/motivating factor for the character.
Cheers
Is there ways to give people points round here... well never mind, I like this message alot.
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We choose to live a lie, when we see with, & not through the eye.
Every decision, no matter the evidence, is a leap of faith; if it were not, then it wouldn't be a choice at all. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 03 Oct 2012 : 22:07:53
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I was kinda talking about the book-version of Conan. The movies make him quite a bit less of the 'loner type'.
He did team-up with people from time to time, but it never lasted very long - as Erik put it, "they were just along for the ride" (which you can take a whole 'nother way in the case of all the princesses he... saved). Most of Howard's heroes were the loner types.
Elric was similar, although he was much less a loner. Quite the opposite of Conan, really - he started out a king, and ended a commoner. He was more of the tragic anti-hero, though - everyone he loved died (a recurring theme in comics, ie., Batman & Spiderman)
A lot of comic heroes are loners, although they constantly wind-up teaming up with (or fighting) other heroes. You don't see a lot of loners in movies - even if the written character was - because a film needs a supporting cast.
How are the Resident Evil movies ? (I've never seen any) Seems to me you have a great female protagonist that doesn't have many friends (and in the new movie, it looks like what few she has made all come back to kill her).
In the third Shrek movie, there is a great 'girl power' scene started off by the Amazing Snow White - one of my favorite movie scenes ever.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 03 Oct 2012 22:09:30 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31727 Posts |
Posted - 04 Oct 2012 : 02:20:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
@Sage re Wonder Woman and her supposed "endless quest for love": Agreed. The "quest for love" should not be what defines any character, much less a female character. This is not to say that "wanting to be in love and happy" isn't a worthy goal or even a quest, but it's pretty cliche when a female character's motivation is this. Or when a romantic relationship becomes the main focus of a female character's plot arc.
Agreed.
An it's an aspect that has never really been attributed to Wonder Woman in her own book. So I really don't see why a television series would want to introduce such an exploration of her character when she has long defined herself as a woman capable of making her own way on her own merits and without defining herself by the "powerful" males around her.
Which is why I tend to think that this much hyped romance with Superman should be nothing more than a brief departure from her character, and not something that acts to define how Wonder Woman will function both in her solo role, and as a member of the Justice League. |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 04 Oct 2012 : 03:11:49
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| As a note- just my two cents, mind- Red sonya very rarely teams with or relies on anyone else, at least in the comics. In the movie, although Ahnold's character does repeatedly step in, she makes it clear that she neither needs nor wants his help. And the other two are along for the ride, as some have said. Granted, they do help a bit, but most of the saving is done by her, in the end. In fact, in the movie, she's the only one who CAN save the world from the evil Queen's artifact! Her character in the comics is even more self-reliant, and rarely even has any companions at all. Yet on occasion, she still accepts help when it is offered. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31727 Posts |
Posted - 04 Oct 2012 : 03:46:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
As a note- just my two cents, mind- Red sonya very rarely teams with or relies on anyone else, at least in the comics.
That's true.
And it's one of the reasons why I'm currently buying both the Red Sonja and Queen Sonja comic books from Dynamite Entertainment. Divorced from her previously poorly crafted renditions by earlier publishers, this version of Red Sonja has now been fully realised as a character in her own right.
I'm loving the exploration of her character from various points in her history -- from infancy right to the point where she takes the throne and beyond. Awesome stuff! |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
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The Red Walker
Great Reader
USA
3567 Posts |
Posted - 04 Oct 2012 : 15:04:19
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
@Sage re: Wonder Woman: My concern is thus. Having Diana not have to be born of a man is a really cool feminist statement. It says that women don't really need men in order to have what they want in life. The new origin says the opposite: as awesome as the Amazons are, they still can't be happy without a man's seed, as it were. Which is a problematic statement.
I'll admit, I hadn't quite thought of it that way.
But it does remind me of the debates about having a strong male lead in the previous rendition of the proposed Wonder Woman television series. One of the themes for Diana's character, was that she was supposedly being written as a character desperate to find the "perfect" man for her unusual life. And I remember thinking at that point that I likely wouldn't be watching the series. I didn't want a television series that focused on Diana's apparent endless quest for love. I wanted a television series that explored the true depths of Diana's character... and showing that she can run completely solo without the need to define her life by chasing after the "perfect man."
I don't see it as problematic in any way, if anything it's closer to truth than how male heroes are portrayed. That in my mind is the bigger misconception, that men don't need women or anyone's help.
And that's just not true. Most anyone needs someone else. Regardless of gender for either of them. |
A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka
"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -
John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
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Edited by - The Red Walker on 04 Oct 2012 19:11:37 |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 04 Oct 2012 : 21:47:56
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
As a note- just my two cents, mind- Red sonya very rarely teams with or relies on anyone else, at least in the comics.
That's true.
And it's one of the reasons why I'm currently buying both the Red Sonja and Queen Sonja comic books from Dynamite Entertainment. Divorced from her previously poorly crafted renditions by earlier publishers, this version of Red Sonja has now been fully realised as a character in her own right.
I'm loving the exploration of her character from various points in her history -- from infancy right to the point where she takes the throne and beyond. Awesome stuff!
I don't know enough about Sonja...what does she become queen of? |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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The Red Walker
Great Reader
USA
3567 Posts |
Posted - 04 Oct 2012 : 22:09:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
As a note- just my two cents, mind- Red sonya very rarely teams with or relies on anyone else, at least in the comics.
That's true.
And it's one of the reasons why I'm currently buying both the Red Sonja and Queen Sonja comic books from Dynamite Entertainment. Divorced from her previously poorly crafted renditions by earlier publishers, this version of Red Sonja has now been fully realised as a character in her own right.
I'm loving the exploration of her character from various points in her history -- from infancy right to the point where she takes the throne and beyond. Awesome stuff!
I don't know enough about Sonja...what does she become queen of?
the Frozen Wastes
http://www.amazon.com/Savage-Red-Sonja-Frozen-She-Devil/dp/193330538X
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A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka
"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -
John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
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Edited by - The Red Walker on 04 Oct 2012 22:13:29 |
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Sightless
Senior Scribe
USA
608 Posts |
Posted - 04 Oct 2012 : 22:29:05
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You know Howard had several stories involving Red Sonja that didn’t get published until long after he was dead. I particularly liked the fact that she kills the magician from the Phoenix on the sword. Rather I liked how she tricked him with a fake ring and then later killed him after leading him on a marry chase halfway across the desert of Stigia.
And as an interesting note the lands she became queen over were originally a colony of the Atlantians
Finally, among the picts, a women could enter into any activity save that of war or rading, and while there strongest shawman was a male, the majority of them were female.
A pity I can’t read comics, I did rather like the character and it would be interesting to see what they’ve don with her. I doubt they gave her scale mail though.
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We choose to live a lie, when we see with, & not through the eye.
Every decision, no matter the evidence, is a leap of faith; if it were not, then it wouldn't be a choice at all. |
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Female Realms Heroes
