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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
 Posted - 07 Sep 2012 : 17:41:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Garen Thal
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
Speaking of female heroes: for the record, anytime Ed and I get the chance to write that Storm Silverhand/Fox-at-Twilight crossover story, you'll be the first to know. 
Lies! I'll hear you two giggling from here in Brooklyn...
Foiled again!
quote:
Originally posted by The Red Walker
How about a bi-monthly serial? I have a feeling we'd never get enough of that pairing. Maybe 'fox had sometime training with Storm to pursue her love of singing.
Quite possibly. Those two would dance very well together.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31727 Posts |
Posted - 08 Sep 2012 : 02:31:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
Speaking of female heroes: for the record, anytime Ed and I get the chance to write that Storm Silverhand/Fox-at-Twilight crossover story, you'll be the first to know.
Cheers
You know, Erik, I've an idea for this proposed meeting.
DRAGON #320 introduced the "sport" of 'Zzar' wrestling in the Realms.
Consider that, Storm Silverhand, and Fox-at-Twilight, and you'll be where I am, mentally, right now.  |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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The Red Walker
Great Reader
USA
3567 Posts |
Posted - 08 Sep 2012 : 02:37:13
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
Speaking of female heroes: for the record, anytime Ed and I get the chance to write that Storm Silverhand/Fox-at-Twilight crossover story, you'll be the first to know.
Cheers
You know, Erik, I've an idea for this proposed meeting.
DRAGON #320 introduced the "sport" of 'Zzar' wrestling in the Realms.
Consider that, Storm Silverhand, and Fox-at-Twilight, and you'll be where I am, mentally, right now.
Not in a heroic place methinks |
A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka
"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -
John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 08 Sep 2012 : 03:09:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
It was suggestion. We aren't stuck on it. I'd be more then willing to hear other ideas and work from there.
The point is, if you put together an 'all girl squad', then there has to be a reason for it, otherwise it feels contrived. For example, if a dragon is about to attack a city, why are only females 'responding to the call'? Or an Orc horde, or Uber-baddie, or giant squid, etc.
WHY are they girl-only? Give me another deus ex machina and we can run with it (perhaps some ancient magic that only females can handle? That sounds too Goddess/Pagan/WoT to me).
MT, I LOVE you at times!!! You just gave me another great idea! Anyone besides me remember the orb from Red Sonya? Only women could touch it. What if we had some sort of powerful magical artifact likethat? It would almost REQUIRE a girl-only gruop to deal with, cause no one else would be able to. Maybe even the female villain angle too, since it would be more plausible to chase after that way- after all, Queen Gedron wanted to uset hat baby to rule the world!
Personally, I wasn't even really focusing on the harem idea itself, but on the chase and rescue BEFORE the abductee gets to it. Or perhaps she already escaped on her own, and they'd have to track her from there- while racing against the former abductors to try to get to her first. Doesn't HAVE to be about being IN one- but it's really one of the few hooks that would make a female-hero team logical. And I like the idea of it being a false abduction, too.
Maybe not even to a harem, but some sort of virgin-sacrificing cult? Again, tropey, I know, but really- how many hooks can you actually come up with for a group of women that give THEM a reason to be the ones doing the heroics, instead of some random bunch of guys? Otherwise, like MT said, it just ends up looking contrived. If the girl was someone's sister, daughter, or gf, it would make more sense than just- "oh, the guys are all busy having poker night- let's go save the world!"
Could we call this team the "Sisterhood of the Traveling Chain-Mail Bikinis"? JK. But some sort of girl-pact might be involved, methinks. |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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Dark Wizard
Senior Scribe
USA
830 Posts |
Posted - 08 Sep 2012 : 03:29:36
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Except even in Red Sonya, the only female member of the heric party was Sonya herself. The artifact idea doesn't preclude other people from playing a part in the adventure, just one aspect of the quest requires a specific characteristic.
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 08 Sep 2012 : 05:20:53
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lets "The One Ring " it.
The item can only be handled by females (some sort of "Orb of the thrice-ccursed Uber-bitch"), but it is tiring to do so (it drains vitality). Ergo, the Orb must be shared - passed between members of the party when the holder becomes too weak.
Then we could even have a questionable female member of the party 'go all Boromir' on us. A bit derivative, but tropes exist for a reason - people tend to fall for them over and over again (in other words, THEY SELL).
And now I'm thinking of Cyric... I hate Cyric... LOL - Cyrisha!  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 08 Sep 2012 05:39:40 |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
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Dark Wizard
Senior Scribe
USA
830 Posts |
Posted - 08 Sep 2012 : 05:37:58
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Didn't say she wasn't the main character.
My point is, it's contrived to find a McGuffin reason for an all female team. Why can't they just happen to be a team of all females, who chose to work together on this one mission. Why does an all female (or all male team team for that matter) need a special gender specific reason to join together. Why does any party come together, because their goals coincided. |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 08 Sep 2012 : 07:08:34
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DW has the right of it. We feel much more comfortable having a party of mostly or all men. Why not women?
In my latest FR novel (http://t.co/LHoEel2j), it isn't really a party situation, but there are three major/one minor female characters and one major/one minor male characters. And I feel pretty good about the construction.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Xnella Moonblade-Thann
Learned Scribe
USA
234 Posts |
Posted - 08 Sep 2012 : 08:24:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
quote:
Originally posted by Xnella Moonblade-Thann
Hmmm...female-only heroes in a novel. Sounds like it's time for a kick-ass elven sisterhood (and yes, this could include drow and half-elves, since they do have elven blood). Just my two coppers.
Sisterhood of the Traveling Boobmail?
Sorry, couldn't resist.
quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
<snip>Could we call this team the "Sisterhood of the Traveling Chain-Mail Bikinis"?<snip>
Both of those names sound pretty good to me. Or better yet, how about "Sisterhood of the Broads in the Bronze Bras"?
quote:
Originally posted by The Red Walker
quote:
Originally posted by Xnella Moonblade-Thann
Hmmm...female-only heroes in a novel. Sounds like it's time for a kick-ass elven sisterhood (and yes, this could include drow and half-elves, since they do have elven blood). Just my two coppers.
This could be good, I'd read it , especially if EC writes it ..this snip is from Elaine Cunninham's site...
"Sure, there are stories I'd like to tell. I recently listed a few of these on a discussion over in the Candlekeep forum, and a "kick-ass elven sisterhood" in on that wish list. "
That's who I got the idea of the kick-ass elven sisterhood from. Kinda drew a blank when I posted the idea last week. 50 hours of work in a nearly 100 degree bakery/sweat factory does that to ya.
But if that does happen (the kick-ass elven sisterhood, that is), I'd really like it if Arilyn and Liriel were on that team. They could each suspect the other of treason/working for the enemy (Arilyn assumes Liriel is evil just because she's a drow; while Liriel assumes Arilyn is working for the enemy because of her "assassin" past). Lots of good storytelling going on, and when Danilo finds out, he gets a huge kick out of the whole scenario between those two women. |
"Sweet water and light laughter until next we meet." - traditional elven farewell
Please forgive any spelling and grammer errors, as my android touch-screen phone has no spellchecker. If I do make a grammer mistake, please let me know and I'll try to fix it.
New laptop, still trying to sort my "scrolls" on its shelves...and when will this cursed thing stop doing things I tell it not to? |
Edited by - Xnella Moonblade-Thann on 08 Sep 2012 08:25:24 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36798 Posts |
Posted - 08 Sep 2012 : 14:45:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
It was suggestion. We aren't stuck on it. I'd be more then willing to hear other ideas and work from there.
The point is, if you put together an 'all girl squad', then there has to be a reason for it, otherwise it feels contrived. For example, if a dragon is about to attack a city, why are only females 'responding to the call'? Or an Orc horde, or Uber-baddie, or giant squid, etc.
WHY are they girl-only? Give me another deus ex machina and we can run with it (perhaps some ancient magic that only females can handle? That sounds too Goddess/Pagan/WoT to me).
MT, I LOVE you at times!!! You just gave me another great idea! Anyone besides me remember the orb from Red Sonya? Only women could touch it. What if we had some sort of powerful magical artifact likethat? It would almost REQUIRE a girl-only gruop to deal with, cause no one else would be able to. Maybe even the female villain angle too, since it would be more plausible to chase after that way- after all, Queen Gedron wanted to uset hat baby to rule the world!
This doesn't work too well... We've already had plenty of examples of someone picking up and carrying something they couldn't touch directly -- Arilyn's moonblade, for FR, and the Staff of Magius, for DL, come most readily to mind.
Anyone could carry the object, provided it was contained or wrapped up or even on some surface that could be lifted. Then you'd just need one woman to manipulate it. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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The Red Walker
Great Reader
USA
3567 Posts |
Posted - 08 Sep 2012 : 15:57:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
It was suggestion. We aren't stuck on it. I'd be more then willing to hear other ideas and work from there.
The point is, if you put together an 'all girl squad', then there has to be a reason for it, otherwise it feels contrived. For example, if a dragon is about to attack a city, why are only females 'responding to the call'? Or an Orc horde, or Uber-baddie, or giant squid, etc.
WHY are they girl-only? Give me another deus ex machina and we can run with it (perhaps some ancient magic that only females can handle? That sounds too Goddess/Pagan/WoT to me).
MT, I LOVE you at times!!! You just gave me another great idea! Anyone besides me remember the orb from Red Sonya? Only women could touch it. What if we had some sort of powerful magical artifact likethat? It would almost REQUIRE a girl-only gruop to deal with, cause no one else would be able to. Maybe even the female villain angle too, since it would be more plausible to chase after that way- after all, Queen Gedron wanted to uset hat baby to rule the world!
This doesn't work too well... We've already had plenty of examples of someone picking up and carrying something they couldn't touch directly -- Arilyn's moonblade, for FR, and the Staff of Magius, for DL, come most readily to mind.
Anyone could carry the object, provided it was contained or wrapped up or even on some surface that could be lifted. Then you'd just need one woman to manipulate it.
What if the item is a Giant Space Hamster, and he bites off any non female appendages that approach him and only allows females close enough to handle him.....it would take several females to ferry him around to the next gnomish village to terrorize |
A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka
"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -
John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 09 Sep 2012 : 01:48:22
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"The League of Extraordinary Ladies." They can adopt the concept from the film of similar title, where prominent female FR characters join together to save...well, whatever it is that needs saving. |
Every beginning has an end. |
Edited by - Dennis on 09 Sep 2012 04:46:48 |
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 09 Sep 2012 : 05:31:34
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quote:
Originally posted by The Red Walker
What if the item is a Giant Space Hamster, and he bites off any non female appendages that approach him and only allows females close enough to handle him.....it would take several females to ferry him around to the next gnomish village to terrorize
For some reason, I got the mental picture of <this guy> . . . except with fur and females! |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 27 Sep 2012 : 09:47:21
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Recently finished re-reading The Mistborn trilogy by Brandon Sanderson and watched Elizabeth (1998) and Elizabeth: The Golden Age (2007). I'm reminded of how formidable women of strong conviction can be, and why heroism favors no gender. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 27 Sep 2012 : 22:32:52
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It's really true. And we need more fiction that presents women as heroes just because they're heroes, not "in spite of" being women (which is often what we get).
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Sightless
Senior Scribe
USA
608 Posts |
Posted - 27 Sep 2012 : 22:59:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
It's really true. And we need more fiction that presents women as heroes just because they're heroes, not "in spite of" being women (which is often what we get).
Cheers
Exactly what does that mean?
I hear alot of that. And it's not just about woman. |
We choose to live a lie, when we see with, & not through the eye.
Every decision, no matter the evidence, is a leap of faith; if it were not, then it wouldn't be a choice at all. |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 28 Sep 2012 : 00:33:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Sightless
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
And we need more fiction that presents women as heroes just because they're heroes, not "in spite of" being women (which is often what we get).
Exactly what does that mean?
I hear alot of that. And it's not just about woman.
Lots of things.
A lot of female characters in fantasy have to "overcome adversity" or "prove themselves worthy," unlike many of their male counterparts who are allowed to be heroes without really proving themselves.
A lot of novels seem to assume that men are a natural fit for the adventurer's life, but a woman has to have some distinctive trait or strength about her that makes her a worthy hero.
Female heroes are much more rare in fantasy novels than male heroes (there's usually only one in a party, and she's the sexual character), and many times they are basically male characters who just happen to be female (i.e. the Amazon problem).
Male heroes never have to worry about sexual harassment or assault, but female heroes do (almost inevitably there will be an attempted rape scene, etc).
The list goes on.
Myself, I like seeing women whose heroism isn't connected to their gender at all. They're heroes who happen to be women (actual women, not cardboard cutouts in the appropriate shape), when it's just as likely they could have been men.
Men are allowed to be heroes with no hindrances. I'd like to see us get to a point where you can say the same thing about women.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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althen artren
Senior Scribe
USA
780 Posts |
Posted - 28 Sep 2012 : 00:56:55
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Someone mentioned a Womanshoon earlier. I have a Hershoon in Myth Drannor
after the Return acting as a patron/sage to adventuers, sending them out to recover what's left
of his treasure stashes and sending them out to weaken Fzoul, not realizing
its being controlled by Manshoon Prime into doing exactly these things. She's
also going into the ruins that haven't been cleared looking for treasure and elf
magic. |
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Sightless
Senior Scribe
USA
608 Posts |
Posted - 28 Sep 2012 : 01:00:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
quote:
Originally posted by Sightless
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
And we need more fiction that presents women as heroes just because they're heroes, not "in spite of" being women (which is often what we get).
Exactly what does that mean?
I hear alot of that. And it's not just about woman.
Lots of things.
A lot of female characters in fantasy have to "overcome adversity" or "prove themselves worthy," unlike many of their male counterparts who are allowed to be heroes without really proving themselves.
A lot of novels seem to assume that men are a natural fit for the adventurer's life, but a woman has to have some distinctive trait or strength about her that makes her a worthy hero.
Female heroes are much more rare in fantasy novels than male heroes (there's usually only one in a party, and she's the sexual character), and many times they are basically male characters who just happen to be female (i.e. the Amazon problem).
Male heroes never have to worry about sexual harassment or assault, but female heroes do (almost inevitably there will be an attempted rape scene, etc).
The list goes on.
Myself, I like seeing women whose heroism isn't connected to their gender at all. They're heroes who happen to be women (actual women, not cardboard cutouts in the appropriate shape), when it's just as likely they could have been men.
Men are allowed to be heroes with no hindrances. I'd like to see us get to a point where you can say the same thing about women.
Cheers
"I see"
Says the blind man,
Haha! |
We choose to live a lie, when we see with, & not through the eye.
Every decision, no matter the evidence, is a leap of faith; if it were not, then it wouldn't be a choice at all. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36798 Posts |
Posted - 28 Sep 2012 : 04:52:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Sightless
"I see"
Says the blind man,
Haha!
As he picked up the hammer and saw! |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 30 Sep 2012 : 03:44:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
A lot of female characters in fantasy have to "overcome adversity" or "prove themselves worthy," unlike many of their male counterparts who are allowed to be heroes without really proving themselves.
There's a reason why we often hear the (faulty?) generalization that Fantasy is mainly a Man's World, in the same way that Romance is a Woman's World...
In most of the fantasy books featuring female heroes that I've read, like Sanderson's Mistborn series, Canavan's The Black Magician trilogy, Huff's Wizard of the Grove duology, and Rawn's Exiles series, the females' heroism is accentuated by their personality, valor, and amazing deeds, and is not judged because or despite of their gender. In fact, in Mistborn, people often forgot that Vin is female. She simply IS herself.
It is, in my opinion, also a challenge for authors, the males, especially, to NOT portray female heroes as "men with boobs." I'm not saying the heroines should not be tough or incredibly, physically strong (a characteristic shared by most men). It's getting into the female psyche and showing it right is where the challenge lies. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 01 Oct 2012 : 02:16:41
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I will point out, as a man who works hard at the gym and eats darn healthy and still only has a strength of 12 or so, it's a false assumption that "most men" are incredibly strong.
But it's very true that strength is a characteristic we associate with male characters, and female characters who are physically strong can come off too much as "men with boobs." It's the Amazon dilemma: when are women being empowered by being strong vs when are they being changed from women into men, which is ultimately sublimating to women?
Note: if anyone wants to see Amazons done right, allow me to recommend Gail Simone's run on Wonder Woman. That's what Amazons should be, IMO.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31727 Posts |
Posted - 01 Oct 2012 : 02:56:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
Note: if anyone wants to see Amazons done right, allow me to recommend Gail Simone's run on Wonder Woman. That's what Amazons should be, IMO.
Or, more readily available, is Brian Azzarello's incredible run on the current New 52 Wonder Woman book. The series has really begun to realise the true potential of what Amazon-styled characters can be in works of fiction. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 01 Oct 2012 : 03:35:20
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I haven't read all of Mistborn (I do like Vin so far), so don't apply this statement to that, but I'd caution against stripping gender identifiers from a female character in order to make the character "heroic"--that's just as bad as applying male identifiers. A heroic biologically-female-but-neutral-gendered character is not a "female hero."
Rawn does very interesting things by turning gender expectations on their head. In her world, women occupy the elevated state of men (and vice versa) in our world. I have yet to read all those, though.
Sage, I have yet to read the New 52 stuff (man, I have lots of reading to do!)--the notable things I heard about WW there were her retconned heritage (in order that Zeus, a man, be part of her heritage) and the recent "romance" with superman, which I am concerned weakens her as an empowered female character. I'll look into it eventually. I will say I think it would take an exceptional man to write Wonder Woman correctly.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31727 Posts |
Posted - 01 Oct 2012 : 04:12:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
Sage, I have yet to read the New 52 stuff (man, I have lots of reading to do!)--the notable things I heard about WW there were her retconned heritage (in order that Zeus, a man, be part of her heritage) ...
Aye. Her origin has been tweaked, slightly, in that her previous history of being a clay figure which was brought to life by the magic of the gods is no longer as reliable. Now, we've learned that Diana is a demigoddess of sorts -- the result of being the natural-born daughter of Hippolyta and Greek God Zeus.
quote:
... and the recent "romance" with superman, which I am concerned weakens her as an empowered female character.
All I can say is... don't get too wrapped up in the hype surrounding the romance. From what regular readers like myself and others around the web have managed to piece together... this supposed romance between Diana and Kal-El will be a significant component of the upcoming "Trinity War" saga early next year. So I'm guessing it's more likely just a gimmick, than any real long-term shift in her character's relationship history. [And the recent Annual of Justice League International appears to suggest that this is probably the case, in it's last few pages.] |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
Edited by - The Sage on 01 Oct 2012 04:13:54 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 01 Oct 2012 : 05:43:35
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How about the (male) knight shows up to rescue the princess, and finds her already 'rescued' and in the arms of a female hero?
eh? EH? I think I got a winner!
Judging by 90% of the TV shows and movies out right now, chick-kiss scenes sell. Make the heroine the knight's sister and you just add a whole 'nother level of lowbrow awesome. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 01 Oct 2012 05:44:14 |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 01 Oct 2012 : 22:39:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
How about the (male) knight shows up to rescue the princess, and finds her already 'rescued' and in the arms of a female hero?
'Tis been done in fantasy novels, albeit not that often.
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
I haven't read all of Mistborn (I do like Vin so far), so don't apply this statement to that, but I'd caution against stripping gender identifiers from a female character in order to make the character "heroic"--that's just as bad as applying male identifiers. A heroic biologically-female-but-neutral-gendered character is not a "female hero."
Vin wasn't stripped of female identifiers. She's full of them. When I mentioned that at times people forgot that she's a lady and not a man, it's because rarely do females engage in combats with Allomancers in the open, or anyone else for that matter. Most Allomancers prefer to work in secret, and fight behind the veil of shadows. Vin, on the other hand, is fine with fighting in both worlds: shadows and light. And there aren't really that many Allomancers in Scadrial; and only one other known Mistborn---Lady Shan.
As Sanderson peeled Vin's personality in Books 2 and 3 more, we get to see how feminine she is in almost every way.
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
Rawn does very interesting things by turning gender expectations on their head. In her world, women occupy the elevated state of men (and vice versa) in our world. I have yet to read all those, though.
Rawn's depiction of women is mostly fine. But admittedly, there are times when I think it borders on being over the top; to the point that women become worse then D&D's drow priestesses. |
Every beginning has an end. |
Edited by - Dennis on 01 Oct 2012 22:49:39 |
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Sightless
Senior Scribe
USA
608 Posts |
Posted - 02 Oct 2012 : 01:00:03
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| Actually, Errick, I don't feel more or less comfortable with one gender group or another, but then again I spent my first ten years on a reservation, then oversees. |
We choose to live a lie, when we see with, & not through the eye.
Every decision, no matter the evidence, is a leap of faith; if it were not, then it wouldn't be a choice at all. |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 02 Oct 2012 : 17:16:35
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@Sage re: Wonder Woman: My concern is thus. Having Diana not have to be born of a man is a really cool feminist statement. It says that women don't really need men in order to have what they want in life. The new origin says the opposite: as awesome as the Amazons are, they still can't be happy without a man's seed, as it were. Which is a problematic statement.
Similarly, Wonder Woman is rare in that she's been able to romance male supporting characters the way male heroes have been able to romance female supporting characters: from a position of strength where the romance isn't what defines them as characters. With Superman, however, that isn't the case: he's not inferior to her, and (debatably) her superior in strength, invulnerability, and those qualities that define her as a hero. It's like DC said "we have a powerful female hero, so now we need an equally/more powerful male hero to keep her from being cool on her own."
(Let me reiterate that I haven't read the New 52 yet, and I don't want to ascribe this actual attitude to DC executives. That's just what it looks like from the outside looking in. Not to mention other issues with their depiction/usage of female characters I won't get into here. I fully intend to read them eventually--these are just stumbling blocks that don't inspire me to rush out and buy the issues off the shelves.)
Wonder Woman as a topic isn't directly germaine to the Realms, but I do think Ed's original vision (and the Realms to this day) plays with some of the themes. To me, lots of female heroes (particularly but not limited to Storm Silverhand) are "Wonder Women" in the setting, who are awesome without requiring being tempered by man's control.
@Dennis re Sanderson/Vin: Good to hear! My statement was only in a general sense, and specifically not necessarily applied to Mistborn.
@Sightless: You sound like a man with a fascinating backstory.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Female Realms Heroes
