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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
 Posted - 17 May 2006 : 17:06:48
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Furthermore... it should be noted that Demihuman Deities confirms that Eilistraee has ONLY female clerics. And thus, there is no potential for conflict with F&P because it's not stated, inside the 3e deity book, that she has male clerics.
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 17 May 2006 : 17:26:09
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And 3rd, as a fan of that deity and her family, who has expanded on her worship and family, I guess I'm one of the ones that don't believe she should have male clerics, so that assumption that most of her fans believe that, isn't true.
Especially because Ed said she has female only clerics, DD says that, Drow of the Underdark says that, Faiths & Pantheons implies it unless the male clerics wear gazy gowns, which is possible, but it's unlikely that ALL of them do. |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4689 Posts |
Posted - 17 May 2006 : 17:26:52
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
And we have 3e/3.5e sourcebook that carries a definitive explanation for why male clerics are allowed.
*blink* Do you mean in reference to elves in general (if so I said a long time ago perhaps before Lolth got her male Clerics, that currently male Cllerics clearly are permitted now? |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4689 Posts |
Posted - 17 May 2006 : 17:37:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
And 3rd, as a fan of that deity and her family, who has expanded on her worship and family, I guess I'm one of the ones that don't believe she should have male clerics, so that assumption that most of her fans believe that, isn't true.
most /= all , however let be expand most fans of Eilistraee I know do believe Eilistraee would allow male Clerics, not all of them. Perhaps a poll here at candlekeep might show a different result. OTOH starting such a poll might not be desired and results can be an unscientific one.
There is no way to actually determine if a voter is truely a fan and might refuel the debate.
I am trying not to rehash what has been discussedbefore on the pros and cons or what ED has actually said and not said.
Though perhaps it might be useful to write an FAQ stating all the discussion points that have been raised in prior discussions. Such as wearing gowns, Sword Dancers and so on. The question does come up perhaps every 3 to 6 months. Perhaps between the two of us we could come up something that reflects the Pros and Cons of this debate. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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khorne
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1073 Posts |
Posted - 17 May 2006 : 20:38:30
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Shouldn`t this alienate some male drow from her worship?: "Ah, finally we have escaped from the feminist gone bad regime of Lolth and into the kind worship of Eilistraee.....what do you mean, they don`t allow any males into the clergy here either? Screw this, I`m gonna worship Vhaeraun".
I think something like this could happen. |
If I were a ranger, I would pick NDA for my favorite enemy |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4689 Posts |
Posted - 17 May 2006 : 21:14:47
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quote:
Originally posted by khorne
Shouldn`t this alienate some male drow from her worship?: "Ah, finally we have escaped from the feminist gone bad regime of Lolth and into the kind worship of Eilistraee.....what do you mean, they don`t allow any males into the clergy here either? Screw this, I`m gonna worship Vhaeraun".
I think something like this could happen.
Oh indeed some male Drow might not like the idea that much, however Eilistraee society is much freer then either Lolthian or Vhaeraunian. Remember he does not have female Clerics (except the false Priestesses that pertend to serve Lolth). Vhaeraun has also very few female followers.
No if a male likes girls in Eilistraee society he stands a good chance of having one or more each day that he (with her agreement) can select. There are other advantages as well of being an Eilistraeeian, there are less rules as to conduct. It is a free society as long as one does no harm.
Lolthian a male is victum of harm on a daily basics.
Vhaeraunian society, one is pledge to put themselves in harms way if another follower is in danger. The rules are harsher then Eilistraee's.
One thing to remember Eilistraee Clerics are loosely organised, they make up a lot of their own rules as long as it does not go against the Dogma. They can share power with males without a problem at all. Some Eilistraee communities could be ruled by males, with of course a council of advisors (which likely would consit of some, many if not all Clerics) to guide the community. Rank in Eilistraee society can be gained without backstabing somebody else and always being worried about being backstabed. Both followers of Lolth and Vhaeraun have to worry about being backstabed.
Some clearly will reject the message of "Come in Peace" because there is a female Cleric only rule, but those that reject the message in general have to select a path of Evil (unless selecting either a deity of the "fair elves" or another good deity) that they sought to escape.
I do not see it as a major problem if a male being rescued by Eilistraee Drow acepting a female Cleric rule, because of the other benefits that do come with living in such a community.
Depending on source males and females are equal or near equal in Eilistraee communities, this clearly can not be said for Lolth communities, Vhaeraun communities does claim to be striving for equality as well however I have not seen much of it there because of the backstab a tool of the trade if somebody gets upset. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
Edited by - Kentinal on 18 May 2006 03:26:09 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 18 May 2006 : 01:13:58
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quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
Perhaps a poll here at candlekeep might show a different result. OTOH starting such a poll might not be desired and results can be an unscientific one.
And it may generate more aggressive defense from scribes on certain viewpoints.
I'd leave it here in this scroll.
quote:
There is no way to actually determine if a voter is truely a fan and might refuel the debate.
Well, until it's officially claimed otherwise, in other words WotC countering what Ed has said in reference to female only clerics for Eilistraee, that's what I'm going with.
quote:
I am trying not to rehash what has been discussedbefore on the pros and cons or what ED has actually said and not said.
Aye, I see that.
quote:
Though perhaps it might be useful to write an FAQ stating all the discussion points that have been raised in prior discussions. Such as wearing gowns, Sword Dancers and so on. The question does come up perhaps every 3 to 6 months. Perhaps between the two of us we could come up something that reflects the Pros and Cons of this debate.
This type of thing is being handled already -- I'm putting together a new FR FAQ for Candlekeep that covers such topics (especially those that seem to pop up every so often). When it's done it'll simply be a matter of directing scribes to the new FAQ rather than re-hashing what's already been said.
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
Edited by - The Sage on 18 May 2006 01:15:04 |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4689 Posts |
Posted - 18 May 2006 : 03:23:15
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
This type of thing is being handled already -- I'm putting together a new FR FAQ for Candlekeep that covers such topics (especially those that seem to pop up every so often). When it's done it'll simply be a matter of directing scribes to the new FAQ rather than re-hashing what's already been said.
Or invoke a discussion about what the FAQ says. Do as you will. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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The Seldarine?
