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 Was Kiaransalee's name erased from the tablets
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
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USA
36784 Posts

Posted - 30 Aug 2012 :  17:43:20  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

As for Kiaransalee forgetting herself - I think that she possibly only had one incarnation (greater Avatar) within Realmspace, and that was what was affected. That Avatar was fueled by the Torillian Drow's worship, and once that power-source was severed, the Avatar withered and died (why they needed to add in the part about her forgetting herself I have no idea - it was just 'insult to injury').


No, Kiaransalee herself had a presence in Realmspace -- it wasn't just an avatar, she had a real presence in the sphere, the same as Lolth or Ghaunadaur.

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Irennan
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Posted - 30 Aug 2012 :  17:46:08  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Eilistraee achieved basically nothing. Sacrificing to redeem only a very small part of all the drow means simply turning her back to the vast majority of the dark elves, because they were supposedly ''unwilling'' to redeem (which makes no sense), leaving them without a beacon of hope to guide them to freedom. That automatically left out children, people who never heard or thought about an alternative and all the rest, to give her followers something they didn't need (they were already free from Lolth's web, and I don't recall them being unhappy with being drow). And why would she sacrifice for a so small group of drow if she had the chance of going on and extend it to all drow. Now this would be completely different if she gave away only her divinity, continuing her quest nonetheless as it doesn't require power to be achieved, because what she wishes for the drow is a change of mentality which she can only kindly help and guide them to find, not impose on them. In fact this is a fitting conclusion, one I was very happy with when I first heard about it...

But the books, as good as they might be, were in truth simply tools to get rid of the Dark Seldarine. They weren't meant to add something to the setting, or to conclude those deities' story in a fitting way, in fact they simply deprived the Realms of something cool.

Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things.

Edited by - Irennan on 30 Aug 2012 17:54:43
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author

USA
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Posted - 30 Aug 2012 :  17:49:23  Show Profile  Visit Erik Scott de Bie's Homepage Send Erik Scott de Bie a Private Message  Reply with Quote
It's problematic and not a complete victory, indeed. And yes, there's lots to talk about. I have my own problems with it.

And let's please not cast aspersions on the "purpose" of the books as "tools to get rid of the Dark Seldarine." You don't know that. I don't know that. And I think that accusation really cheapens Lisa's hard work on a VERY touchy subject.

Cheers

Erik Scott de Bie

'Tis easier to destroy than to create.

Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars"
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Wooly Rupert
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Posted - 30 Aug 2012 :  17:52:43  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie

@Kia: We've already discussed why the "immune to mind-affecting magic" didn't apply. Kiaransalee was depowered substantially when her followers were taken from her, and her divine protections failed.


The events weren't concurrent? Because if it was, it means the spell would affect her at the same time it was affecting her worshippers, so she still had power when it hit.

And that's assuming that the effect of losing worshippers would have an immediate impact, which I also find implausible. A person doesn't starve to death the second there is no longer any food in front of them...

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert


That's just the nature of the game. The stakes were high, and if you don't take risks, you'll never win. This was Eilistraee and the other gods' best chance, and Eilistraee achieved at least a partial victory.


I agree with the need to take risks, but I don't see a need to risk your very existence on a game. I would expect deities to take the long view, since they exist for millenia, instead of acting like a drunken Vegas gambler.

The best chance today may not be as good as the chance you have tomorrow.

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Gustaveren
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Denmark
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Posted - 30 Aug 2012 :  17:58:03  Show Profile  Visit Gustaveren's Homepage Send Gustaveren a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I have not been able to convince myself to actually read the lady penitient serie, but seems to me, it would have been logical for Kiaransalee to prefer a long conflict.

The longer conflict, the more drow would be killed, that is, the more drow could be converted to undeads, that is, the more power to her church

The best scenario from Kiaransalees point of view would be elistrae and loth's followers fighting each other or Loth's followers and humans fighting each other. The longer the conflict, the more dead could be raised as undead

Edited by - Gustaveren on 30 Aug 2012 17:59:37
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Irennan
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Posted - 30 Aug 2012 :  18:00:04  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie

It's problematic and not a complete victory, indeed. And yes, there's lots to talk about. I have my own problems with it.

And let's please not cast aspersions on the "purpose" of the books as "tools to get rid of the Dark Seldarine." You don't know that. I don't know that. And I think that accusation really cheapens Lisa's hard work on a VERY touchy subject.

Cheers



Not only it isn't a complete victory (actually I'd say a loss, because the vast majority of drow is still ''doomed'', whie the others gained basically nothing), but it isn't coherent with E's goal, not what she would've done...

I'm not bashing Lisa, as I'm aware that she didn't come up with the idea of removing the deities from canon. But I cannot imagine any other purpose for those books aside from removing the DS (for the then incoming 4e) with max profit (I'm not sure that such novels would've been written if the DS weren't drow -which sell a lot-. I'm inclined to believe that they would have been left to the fate of many other deities removed by 4e, i.e. swept away from the Spellplague).

Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things.

Edited by - Irennan on 30 Aug 2012 18:02:09
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Gustaveren
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Posted - 30 Aug 2012 :  18:08:54  Show Profile  Visit Gustaveren's Homepage Send Gustaveren a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Kiaransalee could have planned a backupstrategy as the one used by Orcus

Kiaransalee did after all have lots of experience trying to fight Orcus by trying to remove his name from all records, that is, Kiaransalee could have a good idea of what would be necessary to cheat dead (does not hurt that she is goddess of undeath) in case she lost in the game.
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Kiaransalyn
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Posted - 30 Aug 2012 :  19:08:58  Show Profile Send Kiaransalyn a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie

@Kia: We've already discussed why the "immune to mind-affecting magic" didn't apply. Kiaransalee was depowered substantially when her followers were taken from her, and her divine protections failed.



So that implies by losing followers/believers/worshippers she ceased to be divine. Hmm, not sure I like that explanation. Actually, I don't like the whole thing.

Thanks anyway.

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Gustaveren
Learned Scribe

Denmark
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Posted - 30 Aug 2012 :  19:14:36  Show Profile  Visit Gustaveren's Homepage Send Gustaveren a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Kiaransalyn


So that implies by losing followers/believers/worshippers she ceased to be divine.


That was part of AO's ruling after the Times of Trouble.
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Kiaransalyn
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Posted - 30 Aug 2012 :  19:28:07  Show Profile Send Kiaransalyn a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Gustaveren

quote:
Originally posted by Kiaransalyn


So that implies by losing followers/believers/worshippers she ceased to be divine.


That was part of AO's ruling after the Times of Trouble.



True but we've had this debate on Candlekeep a number of times. The main gist seems to be that deific power isn't directly related to number of worshippers. After all Grumbar is a greater deity but how many worshippers does he/she/it actually have.

In the end it boils down to whether The Lady Penitent novels are accepted as canon or not. My vote, obviously, is they are not. Of course, if they are then I'll suggest that we also accept Paul Kidd's novel "Queen of the Demonweb Pits"

Death is Life
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author

USA
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Posted - 30 Aug 2012 :  19:47:26  Show Profile  Visit Erik Scott de Bie's Homepage Send Erik Scott de Bie a Private Message  Reply with Quote
@Wooly: I think it's pretty clear that her worshipers forgot her, she shrank down, and then she forgot herself. And yes, divine power comes directly from mortal worship, and there's no reason to think there's a *time delay* on the connection. But ultimately, it's the symbol that's important: Kiaransalee was playing this game for her life, because she chose to do it because the stakes were acceptable. She lost the game, and being "forgotten out of existence" was just the mechanism for her "death."

@All: There's a difference between "this doesn't make sense" and "I don't like this." And what I'm reading from your guys' posts is more "I don't like this," which I totally understand. As I've said I have problems with it too. But that doesn't mean that it doesn't make sense.

As I said, this game with Lolth provided a real chance for the deities involved to win. It was the best chance they've had in thousands of years. They already have been playing a "long game" since the Descent in the first place. Even a long game has an endgame, and that's what this might have been. It didn't actually turn out that way*, but it had the potential to do so.

The intention of the event seems to be that Eilistraee "won" through sacrifice--i.e., won by losing. Which is a pretty valid and standard religious thing, and one I find very much in keeping with her purpose in the Realms.

*Who's to say this was even the end? In fact, we know it isn't. Eilistraee and Vhaeraun still exist. As I said earlier, the battle for the hearts and souls of the drow will endure as long as Lolth exists.

If we're seriously going to keep grousing about how uncomfortable or displeased we all are with the series (and I've said myself that I have problems with its ending too), this thread loses interest for me.

Cheers

Erik Scott de Bie

'Tis easier to destroy than to create.

Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars"
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Irennan
Great Reader

Italy
3802 Posts

Posted - 30 Aug 2012 :  20:10:25  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie


The intention of the event seems to be that Eilistraee "won" through sacrifice--i.e., won by losing. Which is a pretty valid and standard religious thing, and one I find very much in keeping with her purpose in the Realms.

*Who's to say this was even the end? In fact, we know it isn't. Eilistraee and Vhaeraun still exist. As I said earlier, the battle for the hearts and souls of the drow will endure as long as Lolth exists.

Cheers



Eilistraee would've won through sacrifice if the whole race was redeemed. It would've been fitting in those conditions. Her act was instead basically turning her back to the rest -i.e. vast majority- of drow (and in order to accomplish very little...) which isn't fitting for her. The ending of this series shouldn't be left as it is. The solution proposed of late is good, and would actually enrich her sacrifice: partial victory for partial sacrifice, one that wouldn't prevent her from continuing to lead her fight for the drow.

Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things.

Edited by - Irennan on 30 Aug 2012 20:11:59
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Aulduron
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Posted - 30 Aug 2012 :  20:20:20  Show Profile Send Aulduron a Private Message  Reply with Quote
For thousands of years, the souls of Eilistraees faithful have been kept out of Arvandor. This is no longer the case. At the least, this is a victory for the already dead.

"Those with talent become wizards, Those without talent spend their lives praying for it"

-Procopio Septus
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Irennan
Great Reader

Italy
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Posted - 30 Aug 2012 :  20:29:42  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Eilistraee's plane (where her followers's souls should go) is a very cool place to go (and is supposed to be in Arvandor...). It isn't very fair to turn one's back to a lot of ''suffering'' living people to provide the dead with an even cooler place...

Also Eilistraee's battle is for freedom of the living, the dead who died while being her followers are already free.

Point is that in any way you put it, Eilistraee's ''sacrifice'' hasn't good reasons behind it, and for this she should be returned in some form (and possibly the rest of the drow pantheon as well) for her quest to continue.

But as Erik said, this is derailing the thread, so I think to be done with this particular part of the discussion...

Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things.

Edited by - Irennan on 30 Aug 2012 20:31:32
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Aulduron
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USA
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Posted - 30 Aug 2012 :  21:06:36  Show Profile Send Aulduron a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Yeah, I don't really want to be on this side of the argument anyway. I loved the books, but hated the outcome.

"Those with talent become wizards, Those without talent spend their lives praying for it"

-Procopio Septus
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
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Posted - 30 Aug 2012 :  21:34:48  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie

There's a difference between "this doesn't make sense" and "I don't like this." And what I'm reading from your guys' posts is more "I don't like this," which I totally understand. As I've said I have problems with it too. But that doesn't mean that it doesn't make sense.


Erik, I don't like it because it doesn't make sense to me. Risking your existence in a game, for something you may be able to achieve later if you wait, doesn't make sense. Starving the second your food is taken away doesn't make sense. Mortal magic brainwashing gods doesn't make sense.

But I guess this is going to be another of those times that you and I simply agree to disagree.

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Alystra Illianniis
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Posted - 30 Aug 2012 :  22:23:16  Show Profile Send Alystra Illianniis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
@ Irrenen, and others. Eilistraee didn't "sacrifice" herself. She was KILLED (or at least Quilue/Avatar was). The ritual didn't just free her followers, it freed ALL the drow who were Miyeritar-blood and/or untainted by Wendonai. That's a pretty substantial protion of the drow population even EXCLUDING her followers. I think the number was somewhere around a third of all drow. She wasn't turning her back on the rest of the drow, she was trying to save as many as possible at one fell swoop. That part succeeded. The fact that Lolth had caused Hallistra to go insane and take a swing at her with the sword at the very moment she was most vulnerable (in Quilue's body) WHILE she was urging Hallistra to come back and be forgiven, is just more of Lolth's dirty, underhanded tactics. There was NO "Sacrifice" involved, it was just blind, dumb luck- or Lolth's machinachins at work- take your pick. So although she did succeed at part of her goal, it was at the cost of the loss of her won life through sheer miscalculation rather than by her own design.

And yes, allowing her dead followers into Arvandor proper (her realm is at the very edge of it, IIRC) was part of that. So was allowing any drow of Miyeritar descent to make the choice. Also, returning them to what they were before was ALSO part of her goal, as it signified that they were once again considered part of the Tel-Quessir (a BIG deal to elves, as drow are currently N'Tel'Quess!) and therefore able to use High Magic on their own, as well as gain back all of the otehr elven attributes they had lost. Like reverie, for one. It's been stated in the lore many times that by that point in time, only a very FEW drow still could, and most of those were VERY old...

I'll agree that there ae some major plot-holes here- though I'm not sure I consider the use of the kiiras one of them. They contain memories of the past wearers, as well as High Magic knowledge they held, and the drow who used them were already powerful wizards to begin with, so it should not have been TOO difficult to combine those things into an appropriate ritual. As I recall, they had several ancestral voices to guide them in theuse of the gems, as well, which likely helped.

The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.

"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491

"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs

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Irennan
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Posted - 30 Aug 2012 :  22:35:09  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
And how many Miyeritari blooded/untainted would have been there after so many millenia of genetic mixing? They couldn't possibly be one third ( actually I'd be more inclined to say none at all, but even if they were one third, there's still a vast majority left out there in Lolth's web). Either way, the fact that she (or her avatar) was ''killed'' doesn't improve the situation. It implies that she didn't give her life for her goal, but that it was simply taken, and it is one more reason to bring her back (or to simply choose the ''loss of divinity but not life'' solution that was in store to give her actions more value, which I'd prefer).

Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things.

Edited by - Irennan on 30 Aug 2012 22:40:57
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Aulduron
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Posted - 30 Aug 2012 :  22:51:21  Show Profile Send Aulduron a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Where did you get the figure of 1/3 of all drow? In the book it said "hundreds". I assume "hundreds", spread out among all the spider kissing drow cities would probably get slaughtered wholesale before they got anywhere near the surface, especially after losing their darkvision and other abilities that are necessary in the underdark.

We know some were in Sshmath and made it to the City of Hope.

I really would like to hear at least a reference to the new dark elves in a novel.

"Those with talent become wizards, Those without talent spend their lives praying for it"

-Procopio Septus
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Alystra Illianniis
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Posted - 30 Aug 2012 :  22:53:24  Show Profile Send Alystra Illianniis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Keep in mind, Menzo- and Ched Nasad- was founded by drow from that region originally. IE, look at an Underdark map and you can see that Miyeritar sits roughly in/near the High Forest region. So the chances of finding drow in those cities at least would be fairly good. It was only the dark elves of Illithiir that were tainted by Wendonai. And those drow, while spreading and mixing with others, mostly seem to have gone to the east and south. Even Sshamath seems to have has a small population of non-tainted drow, according to the series, as many of the wizards involved in the High Magic ritual were converted back. Drow tend to breed within their own or affiliated Houses, which means that some amount of intra-House inbreeding probably kep the number of non-tainted, non-Illithiir-blooded drow higher than we would expect. I've dived into this subject before, and there was a discussion of the probable numbers in another thread some time back, dealing with drow incest and other deviant practices. IIRC, it was eventually locked. One-third was the high end of the scale, but it was agreed to be a sicnificant portion, perhaps closer to one-quarter, but still fairly high, considering.

The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.

"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491

"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs

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Irennan
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Posted - 30 Aug 2012 :  22:56:17  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Assuming that the total drow population is, say 100k (and it's way too few, considering that Menzoberranzan has like 20k, and it's not a big drow city) hundreds would make like what? 1-2%? Removing the ones who died by lolthite hand or before getting to the surface we are left with near to no one...

@Alystra: after the Dark Disaster Miyeritari population was reduced to a handful. I guess that the ones of them who chose to venture in the Underdark were easily absorbed by the Illithiri houses, and after the descent Wendonai was still consorting with drow matrons (until the assault to the elven court).

Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things.

Edited by - Irennan on 30 Aug 2012 23:03:16
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Alystra Illianniis
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Posted - 30 Aug 2012 :  23:19:09  Show Profile Send Alystra Illianniis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I think you'reunderestimating their numbers a bit. For starters, there were several groups of dark elves who left or withdrew from Miyeritar before it was destroyed, and some even joined Illithiir and even Aryvandaar. Then there was the "lost" city (sorry, forgot the name) that disappeared several years before the Dark Disaster. Some might have been absorbed by Illithiiri Houses but others wanted nothing to do with them, even after the Descent.

The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.

"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491

"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs

Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469

My stories:
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Irennan
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Posted - 30 Aug 2012 :  23:25:54  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
If we have to stick with number in the books (which -alas- are considered canon), then what I wrote above is even too much. Either way, we don't know exactly what fraction of the drow population they are, but surely after their striving to get on the surface and after the Spellplague, their number is very low. Point is that the vast majority of drow people is still in Lolth's web, without the slightest spark of hope to get out of there without E. (and V.).

And we completely derailed the topic...

Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things.

Edited by - Irennan on 30 Aug 2012 23:29:45
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist

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Posted - 31 Aug 2012 :  01:48:16  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie

Orcus's name was erased before 2e hit (i.e. he was "erased" in the 2e Planescape set), so yes, she *could* have erased his name from the Tablets of Fate, if we're assuming he was enscribed there at all. How (if) she managed to do so is unknown, but you better believe mortal magic could not have accomplished it. It's a titanic exertion of power to match magic with a god, much less an overgod.

When Kiaransalee was "erased" in the Lady Penitent series, the Tablets of Fate did not presently exist, which means the threshold to "erase" her was lower. No one had to contend with the will of AO to destroy a god, so mortal high magic could theoretically accomplish it.

The way I see it, the Tablets of Fate were sort of the divine "safeguard," because they decreed which gods existed and which did not. Regardless of whether a rival god or even an ambitious mortal vanquished you, if you were a god whose name was inscribed on the Tablets of Fate, you still existed in some form. After the tablets' destruction (i.e. during the Era of Upheaval), gods could die without that safety net. Basically, AO declared a free-for-all among the gods starting in 1358.

The reforging of the Tablets represents the end of that era--now that the gods are no longer able to destroy each other permanently, there's much less reason for them to engage in active/direct war against each other.

So no, Kiaransalee was not erased from the Tablets of Fate, as the tablets didn't exist at the time of her "erasure." Nor is she necessarily actually dead--it's quite possible (even likely) that she will be inscribed anew on the reforged Tablets and so spring back into existence (or perhaps be promoted from whatever form she managed to retain during her presumed "death"). In my personal (not-quite-canon) campaign, she isn't dead at all, but lurking and waiting for her revenge on Lolth.

Also, let's not bash Lisa (or any author), ok? It's just not cool. Thanks.

Cheers



Orcus was around right at the end of 1E and theoretically gone as you say in 2E until Dead gods. Ironically, Gareth and company's adventures were written right at the end of 1E and when 2E was coming out. Canonically though, Gareth and company "destroyed" the wand of Orcus in 1359, but the ToT ended in 1358. If we accept the idea that Gareth and company had something to do with Orcus' fall, then in theory Orcus' name was erased after the "destruction" of the tablets of fate (which, maybe the "destruction" was simply the lessening of the defenses on the tablets).

Just to throw out some more interesting stuff that might just lead to something.... Orcus returned as Tenebrous... and Tenebrous had knowledge of "the Last Word" which was something so powerful that it could destroy gods.

Anyway, just throwing out wild thoughts to see if anything sticks to give authors something to build with.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Tarlyn
Learned Scribe

USA
315 Posts

Posted - 31 Aug 2012 :  04:07:14  Show Profile Send Tarlyn a Private Message  Reply with Quote
IMO what actually happened in the LP series is not particularly important. Whether it happened exactly as is, or was mostly folk tales with an unreliable narrator, the current state of the drow pantheon is the major issue for 5e FR. How the drow deities are restored and representing their faiths in the Realms is important. I would hope to see significant portions of followers of V and E among the drow population. In a returned Dambrath, E and V might even be the primary deities worshiped in the region. I see Kiaransalee's followers as more of a shadowy cult than a major religion in the Realms similar to followers of a Demon Prince, or Devil Lord. That would be my ideal state for the drow pantheon anyway.

Tarlyn Embersun
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
6653 Posts

Posted - 31 Aug 2012 :  07:32:58  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
As for Drow not being able to cast High Magic, I think that is because High Magic is at least in-part powered by the Seldarine (they put their stamp of approval on it, an give it a boost). That being the case, this means that other power-sources should be able to fuel the magic itself (like the anti-Seldarine). Another option is that Corellon finally allowed it, because Eilistraee didn't really belong in the anti-Seldarine in the first place. take your pick.



Hmm, I see this so much, and over the years have responded time and again. High Magic is a form of spellcasting that creates particular types of spells in particular ways/forms, of which the best version in game mechanic terms was IMO the stuff set out in the "Cormanthyr" accessory.

Drow can't cast High Magic. Why? A few reasons have been given in the sources, most of which revolve around the lack of a sense of community etc. (Yes, I know I'm paraphrasing badly here).

In my Realms, Drow magic is just as powerful as Gold/Moon/Green elven magic. Drow magic is just as powerful as High Magic. They just do it differently - from using rituals to sacrifice people's life essence/blood to power stuff, to creating a quasi-High Magic "circle" using spell-thralled mages under a chief caster's control, to demonic pacts which serve as a power source for mighty magic (that comes at a cost, of course), etc. etc.

So simply put, whilst drow can't cast High Magic, they can cast spells that approximate and may exceed High Magic in power through alternative means. The drow aren't missing out on anything.

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
6653 Posts

Posted - 31 Aug 2012 :  07:39:59  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
In relation to the original Miyeritari dark elves being transformed into drow, I gave my take on that in GHotR in my Descent of the Drow prose sidebar. Basically, there were a significant chunk of Miyeritari dark elves, who after the Dark Disaster, became less than paragons of goodness due to the existengies (sp?) of their situation. I am of the view that not all dark elves were transformed into drow but that the number was so small in a genetic sense that over the millenia that followed their bloodlines were watered down such that there were no pureblood dark elves left after -5000 DR or so.

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus
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TBeholder
Great Reader

2399 Posts

Posted - 31 Aug 2012 :  13:36:37  Show Profile Send TBeholder a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan

Eilistraee achieved basically nothing. Sacrificing to redeem only a very small part of all the drow means simply turning her back to the vast majority of the dark elves, because they were supposedly ''unwilling'' to redeem (which makes no sense), leaving them without a beacon of hope to guide them to freedom. That automatically left out children, people who never heard or thought about an alternative and all the rest, to give her followers something they didn't need (they were already free from Lolth's web, and I don't recall them being unhappy with being drow). And why would she sacrifice for a so small group of drow if she had the chance of going on and extend it to all drow.
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan

Not only it isn't a complete victory (actually I'd say a loss, because the vast majority of drow is still ''doomed''

"What's next" is the right question, but the fuller answer is, the funnier it becomes. Let's consider the "palpable" part - drow getting physically and magically reverted to SsriíTelíQ uessir?
  • In the Underdark theocracies
  • Some drow suddenly turn paltrier and lose innate powers - though, curiously, none of the spider-lovin' priestesses.
    15 seconds to answer: How long it will take them to figure out what's going on? How quickly and in what fashion would they react?
    Don't forget that the reverted ones can't even move as freely as the rest after losing levitation, nor use drow-only magical items (probably, same for individually-attuned ones).
    Subtotal: I'm sure this day would be included in the Drow history as "that time when our Spider Queen [finally lost patience and] rewarded the Drow who remained loyal through the test of Her silence by exposing the traitors unworthy to be the Drow by withdrawing Her boons from them" - they had some arguments as to the source of spell-like abilities, right? This interpretation will add a point for the more spider-loving side. And that's about it.
  • On surface (moondancers):
  • Converts with a drop of fiendish blood don't revert. Nor their descendants, if any.
    Subtotal: How exactly would this split not turn into a huge loose end and a trouble for everyone involved?
  • In the places where this doesn't matter much (e.g. Sshamath, Skullport):
  • Reverted and non-reverted drow start to interbreed. Because even if they'll figure out what's up, a bunch of Chaotic and/or Evil wizards keeping one eye on their purses is unlikely to freak out upon discovery that half of them are Mystran, etc. No big news - everyone already knows that some folk around here likes spiders less than the others do, and are less than shy about this fact.
    Subtotal: In two generation no one will be able to tell who is who not even counting the exclusion... and such places are likely to have more than fair share of the visibly Planetouched.
  • Additionally:
  • Most drow, even non-Lolthites, aren't Emo Teen Conans - they are likely to be quite fine with being who and what they are, if not always with their circumstances. Su-u-ure, they will be so happy to suddenly get transformed into something else, just because Seldarine think it will be more cute... they also will be happy to face all abovementioned problems, too, they haven't evough of that already.
Total: it got obvious potential to do enormous harm to the cause of converting the drow, while it's not clear how it would help anyone except maybe the moondancers (but not all of them) who are presumably already okay (spiritually).
And possibly 1 (one) certain Emo Teen Conan... who avoids interaction with his kind - even said moondancers - anyway... except he turned out ineligible due to being itsy-bitsy planetouched.

Also, how any advanced drow wizard - let alone a deity - would somehow fail to notice such obvious possibilities?
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan

Eilistraee's plane (where her followers's souls should go) is a very cool place to go (and is supposed to be in Arvandor...).
And if we'll not suddenly forget we ever were at war with Oceania everything that was said before 4ed (I, for one, have hard time making heads or tails out of this mess compared to the Planescape), Svartalfheim is far cooler not in Arvandor, but was implied to be at least as old as the schism and indeed quite a fun place on its own. And the non-drow elves in Alfheim don't have problems with being there either. Furthermore, do these petitioners themselves even care to be anywhere else, other than with their goddess? What's with "even the most miserable lemure wants to be in the Nine Hells - he just wants to be a pit fiend" deal.

People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch
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Thauranil
Master of Realmslore

India
1591 Posts

Posted - 31 Aug 2012 :  15:03:59  Show Profile Send Thauranil a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie

There's a difference between "this doesn't make sense" and "I don't like this." And what I'm reading from your guys' posts is more "I don't like this," which I totally understand. As I've said I have problems with it too. But that doesn't mean that it doesn't make sense.


Erik, I don't like it because it doesn't make sense to me. Risking your existence in a game, for something you may be able to achieve later if you wait, doesn't make sense. Starving the second your food is taken away doesn't make sense. Mortal magic brainwashing gods doesn't make sense.

But I guess this is going to be another of those times that you and I simply agree to disagree.



The other members of the Dark seldarine had been playing this game ever since the Descent and in all that time what had they accomplished?
A stalemate at best ,but a slow erosion of their worship and power by Lolth is what most had to look forward to. Suddenly they got this chance to take a gamble and beat everything on no last throw of the dice. Are you saying that as Drow they would have done anything other than take that chance?
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Irennan
Great Reader

Italy
3802 Posts

Posted - 31 Aug 2012 :  15:31:33  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
^The game became ''win or die'' only when Lolth advanced her proposal. It was Lolth's game, with Lolth's rules. It was clear that she was planning something and none with a brain would've accepted, especially when that game wasn't needed. Besides, the DS are deities and they don't think as mortals, they're not drow. Also, as I said, take in consideration what would've happened with Lolth's death: yet another huge bloodshed among drow due to infighting and other races taking the advantage. And I don't think that people brainwashed like the drow would become reasonable all of sudden and understand that they have been indoctrinated and fooled. Heck -proud and stubborn as they are- they wouldn't even accept the fact that they wasted their whole lives being puppets of a deity with ego issues. What both E. and V. wish for the drow is that they understand their status and take steps to solve it: the rebellion or redemption must come from the drow, it must be their choice, and the game totally destroyed this concept making the dark elves simple pawns in a cruel divine game, with no initiative on their own (and extended this even to eilistraeens and vhaerunites, who are supposed to be free).

Kiaransalee could've taken advantage from the huge body count, but then she could've done so with a long consuming conflict, which is what the undead do.

The game might be cool from a narrative stand point, but it isn't good for the setting. Putting aside the reasons (or the lack of them) for the DS to join, making a game of the battle for the freedom of a race, a game which excludes mortals' choice, is just bad and ugly IMO (and -as I said- is unfitting for the struggle that both E. and V. lead in their own way).

Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things.

Edited by - Irennan on 31 Aug 2012 15:33:26
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