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 Was Kiaransalee's name erased from the tablets
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader

USA
3750 Posts

Posted - 29 Aug 2012 :  05:37:22  Show Profile Send Alystra Illianniis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Yes, basically. They were not technically High Mages, though- they were using their family Telu'Kiiras to cast a High Magic ritual, because drow lost the ability to use High Magic in the DEscent. The Kiiras were from ancient Miyerritar before it was destroyed. And the ritual erased her name from mortal memory. Possible, but I don't know if that would also erase her from written records. That may have been a loop-hole intentionally left in.

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Aulduron
Learned Scribe

USA
343 Posts

Posted - 29 Aug 2012 :  06:19:35  Show Profile Send Aulduron a Private Message  Reply with Quote
This was the spells intent

"What better way to end Kiaransalee's worship than by erasing her name from every worshipers mind? Even from the mind of the very goddess herself."

The spell was cast while her worshipers were in battle. When it was finished, they all looked around, confused, as if they didn't even know their names. They were easily slaughtered. Even the Eilistreans could not remember her name.

As the spell was cast, the 3 goddesses were playing savaa. Eilistraee's wizard piece captured Kiaransalee's mother piece (it was agreed that a goddess would die should her mother be captured). Her remaining pieces drifted away as mist.

"she leaned forward and took Kiaransalee's Mother piece from the board. As the Goddess of Death shrank to a tiny, forlorn pile of tattered skin flakes, the Mother piece turned to ash in Eilistraee's hand.

"Kiaransalee was gone. Her domain lingered a moment longer. Then it's tombstone cracked and crumbled, it's graves sagged in and became empty hollows. As it disappeared, the domains of Eilistraee and Lolth came together to fill the gap"

Take from this what you will.

"Those with talent become wizards, Those without talent spend their lives praying for it"

-Procopio Septus
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TBeholder
Great Reader

2399 Posts

Posted - 29 Aug 2012 :  06:58:33  Show Profile Send TBeholder a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

EDIT: And another thing/pet-peeve - if they plan on keeping Zakhara around (and they should!), then I think FATE should be in-charge of the Tablets of Fate. I mean, its kind of a no-brainer, don't you think? They got her friggin' name on them!
Maybe she helped to sort out this madhouse? It seems to be her style.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

I just thought of something.
'FATE' might be the name Ao is known under in Zakhara.
Maybe, but why? Suppose he just had a world-shaping party and invited a bunch of pals-demiurges - Fate, Maztica and... who else, that dragon?
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

the Imaskari Godwall being an obvious exception, but we still don't know all the details of what that entailed. Either the Imaskari had some Over-god level help, or they figured out how to change the rules outside the rulebook
[...]
I don't think the Imaskari were as powerful as assumed - I think they were just clever enough to figure out how to do something Ao couldn't even see.
Ao normally doesn't interfere with mortals, that's all. Imaskari cast their spell, their business.
I don't see why Imaskari shouldn't have been able to do it: what their "planar seal" did is wide-area denial for some connections, and divine links to Outer Planes are, in the end, kept merely by mortals in the affected area - so why not?
Greyhawk spell Rary's Plane Truth (7-lvl Divination) reveals this sort of a connection, among the other things, so why not other interactions?
Some aftereffects could have been caused by 'jamming into the seal, or because Ao already had rules in place according to which those crashing the party physically have to leave the same way and they didn't care to - we know that extraplanars hate being cut off in The Flow (there's evidence of gods entering/looking into it "correctly", but it's not what happened with those avatars) and they weren't that incensed () anymore.
quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis

Yes, basically. They were not technically High Mages, though- they were using their family Telu'Kiiras to cast a High Magic ritual, because drow lost the ability to use High Magic in the DEscent.
Yup, changed connection to the Weave. Oh, wait, what with the Windwalker?
Also, using High Magic just from tools, seriously? That's not how it's described, to say the least - besides, if this was possible, elves would already do it.
quote:
Originally posted by Aulduron

"What better way to end Kiaransalee's worship than by erasing her name from every worshipers mind? Even from the mind of the very goddess herself."
...and it's also rather hilarious that they would have that power and, of all gods, start with the Revenancer who until Maerimydra was not exactly a major force.
Also, the other gods apparently are even more short-sighted than Vyshaan nobles - who after all, upon hearing what happened to the Ssri'Tel'Quessir had enough of a clue to start an assassination war?

People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch

Edited by - TBeholder on 29 Aug 2012 07:14:06
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Kiaransalyn
Senior Scribe

United Kingdom
762 Posts

Posted - 29 Aug 2012 :  10:44:42  Show Profile Send Kiaransalyn a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Aulduron

This was the spells intent

"What better way to end Kiaransalee's worship than by erasing her name from every worshipers mind? Even from the mind of the very goddess herself."

The spell was cast while her worshipers were in battle. When it was finished, they all looked around, confused, as if they didn't even know their names. They were easily slaughtered. Even the Eilistreans could not remember her name.

As the spell was cast, the 3 goddesses were playing savaa. Eilistraee's wizard piece captured Kiaransalee's mother piece (it was agreed that a goddess would die should her mother be captured). Her remaining pieces drifted away as mist.

"she leaned forward and took Kiaransalee's Mother piece from the board. As the Goddess of Death shrank to a tiny, forlorn pile of tattered skin flakes, the Mother piece turned to ash in Eilistraee's hand.

"Kiaransalee was gone. Her domain lingered a moment longer. Then it's tombstone cracked and crumbled, it's graves sagged in and became empty hollows. As it disappeared, the domains of Eilistraee and Lolth came together to fill the gap"

Take from this what you will.



From the City of the Spider Queen web enhancement:
"Kiaransalee is immune to .... mind-influencing effects."

A spell that makes her forget her own name is surely a mind-influencing effect.

From my own point of view, it's a moot point since I don't accept the events of The Lady Penitent books. I'll jump back out, and stay out of this thread now. :)

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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
36784 Posts

Posted - 29 Aug 2012 :  11:04:11  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis

Yes, basically. They were not technically High Mages, though- they were using their family Telu'Kiiras to cast a High Magic ritual, because drow lost the ability to use High Magic in the DEscent. The Kiiras were from ancient Miyerritar before it was destroyed. And the ritual erased her name from mortal memory. Possible, but I don't know if that would also erase her from written records. That may have been a loop-hole intentionally left in.



Okay, that's not quite as bad, then.

I do strenuously object to using High Magic that way, though, and also to it being that easy for mortals to take out a deity.

And from other posts, it appears it was an instant "hey, you're now forgotten, and so you're now dead!" thing. That shouldn't work like that...

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_Jarlaxle_
Senior Scribe

Germany
584 Posts

Posted - 29 Aug 2012 :  11:39:53  Show Profile Send _Jarlaxle_ a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

Others here have stated this as 'fact', several times, and I take their word for it simply because I have never read the books that revolve around that storyline.


Well, a lot of people stated it as a fact that mystra was killed by getting a stick punched on her head
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Thauranil
Master of Realmslore

India
1591 Posts

Posted - 29 Aug 2012 :  13:55:49  Show Profile Send Thauranil a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis

Yes, basically. They were not technically High Mages, though- they were using their family Telu'Kiiras to cast a High Magic ritual, because drow lost the ability to use High Magic in the DEscent. The Kiiras were from ancient Miyerritar before it was destroyed. And the ritual erased her name from mortal memory. Possible, but I don't know if that would also erase her from written records. That may have been a loop-hole intentionally left in.



Okay, that's not quite as bad, then.

I do strenuously object to using High Magic that way, though, and also to it being that easy for mortals to take out a deity.

And from other posts, it appears it was an instant "hey, you're now forgotten, and so you're now dead!" thing. That shouldn't work like that...



It was not quite like that as the mortals in question were the pawns of the drow gods and goddesses involved in a homicidal winner takes all game to the death. Frankly i thought Kiaransalees death was handled rather well and in a memorable manner.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
36784 Posts

Posted - 29 Aug 2012 :  15:11:27  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Thauranil

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis

Yes, basically. They were not technically High Mages, though- they were using their family Telu'Kiiras to cast a High Magic ritual, because drow lost the ability to use High Magic in the DEscent. The Kiiras were from ancient Miyerritar before it was destroyed. And the ritual erased her name from mortal memory. Possible, but I don't know if that would also erase her from written records. That may have been a loop-hole intentionally left in.



Okay, that's not quite as bad, then.

I do strenuously object to using High Magic that way, though, and also to it being that easy for mortals to take out a deity.

And from other posts, it appears it was an instant "hey, you're now forgotten, and so you're now dead!" thing. That shouldn't work like that...



It was not quite like that as the mortals in question were the pawns of the drow gods and goddesses involved in a homicidal winner takes all game to the death. Frankly i thought Kiaransalees death was handled rather well and in a memorable manner.



I object to mortals being able to so easily take out a deity.

Also, if that was all that was needed, why didn't Lolth have them target Corellon? He's the one that cast her out, and he's the one she's got the most serious mad-on against.

And I don't recall anything saying that cutting off worship equalled the instant destruction of the deity. Kia-chica should have had the option of trying to re-establish worship, in the Realms or elsewhere, instead of instantly keeling over.

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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author

USA
4598 Posts

Posted - 29 Aug 2012 :  16:37:57  Show Profile  Visit Erik Scott de Bie's Homepage Send Erik Scott de Bie a Private Message  Reply with Quote
@Alys et al: Jergal is also a god of fate. I don't think we need one particular god to be the arbiter of such a nebulous concept.

Also, just because they're called the "Tablets of Fate" doesn't necessarily mean they have anything to do with a god of fate. I suspect that they're called this simply because they list out with deities are permitted ("fated") to exist. Also, they can be changed or destroyed. Doesn't sound much like fate as we're discussing it.

@Wooly et al: I don't think there's anything "easy" about putting together a pseudo-high magic spell from ancient elven artifacts from before the Descent and successfully casting it. (Or maybe you do think that was easy, just as Karsus casting his spell to consume Mystryl was easy?)

I don't think deific *existence* is informed by the level of mortal worship, but rather deific *power.* Removing her worshipers from the table made Kiaransalee suddenly less powerful (perhaps no more powerful in the Realms than a high-level mortal) and she had to surrender rather than continue on the game. That may have looked like she "died," but only because that was the agreement in the sava game.

Nor do I think it destroyed Kiaransalee, so much as set her back a bit. Remember, she did much the same thing to Orcus, who wasn't even a god, and he came back. I highly doubt the Revenancer was put down for the count by this event.

Also, there's no evidence that Kiaransalee suffered in other planes, only in Realmspace. The pseudo-high magic severed her connection to the Realms, but she might be just as powerful elsewhere.

Cheers

Erik Scott de Bie

'Tis easier to destroy than to create.

Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars"
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Matt James
Forgotten Realms Game Designer

USA
918 Posts

Posted - 29 Aug 2012 :  21:11:55  Show Profile Send Matt James a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Gah! Erik is bringing up many of the points I was about to until I read page 2.

Kiaransalee likely still exists in some fashion, just not with Toril. She could, theoretically return, but it would require remnants of lore that speaks of her. This would have to ignite a fire of worshippers that then help her to regain power. Ultimately, this is the absolute most difficult path. She is, for all intents and purposes, dead.

Edit to add: She also lost the memory of herself, which makes having followers really difficult. She would likely deny her existance (thus she goes *poof*)

Edited by - Matt James on 29 Aug 2012 21:13:57
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
36784 Posts

Posted - 29 Aug 2012 :  21:22:45  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
So mortal magic can brainwash a deity?

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Bakra
Senior Scribe

628 Posts

Posted - 29 Aug 2012 :  22:00:15  Show Profile Send Bakra a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

So mortal magic can brainwash a deity?



Mighty Mortal Magic wiped out the memory from her followers. This reduced her to.. well to a status less than a demigod but slightly stronger than the strongest Archmage. Any benefits from being a deity were reduced or vanished altogether. For example, her immunity to mind altering magics went away.

Then again I haven't read the series so my speculation could be totally wrong.

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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
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Posted - 29 Aug 2012 :  22:17:29  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
See, here's my problem with all this... Saying that making worshippers forget the deity results in the immediate powering down of the deity is like saying the deity is a lamp and the worships are the electricity. Pull the plug, the light goes out.

I don't see deities as being tied to worship on a real-time basis like that. If that was the case, Auppenser would have kacked as soon as the Killing Wave hit Jhaamdath, and the imprisoned sliver of Moander in Tsornyl would have died a few years before the Spellplague. Auppenser didn't die, and that chunk of Moander is still around, despite not having any worship at all, since Finder stole his divinity and Lolth is stealing his worship.

Matt James says above that Kia-chica lost the memory of herself, as well. This means that mortal magic can brainwash a deity... If mortal magic can do this, why not use mortal magic to create new deities? Why not use mortal magic to convince deity A that they don't cover this portfolio, but actually this other one? Why not use mortal magic to forcibly meld deities B and C? And so on...

And again, why was a lesser enemy of Lolth targeted, instead of her biggest enemy?

Letting mortals control or affect deities like this opens way too big a can of worms. It blurs the line between mortal and divinity, and makes the gods seem like just another powerful entity to oppose. It lessens and cheapens them, and comes across as implausible.

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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author

USA
4598 Posts

Posted - 29 Aug 2012 :  22:29:57  Show Profile  Visit Erik Scott de Bie's Homepage Send Erik Scott de Bie a Private Message  Reply with Quote
@Wooly: I think this was exactly the point of the Era of Upheaval. AO was showing the deities the consequences of their actions, which was to demean themselves to becoming like mortals. Up until the ToT, they were, after all, acting like mortals, and not like gods.

Moving forward, after the Tablets of Fate are reforged, I suspect none of this will be a problem.

Cheers

Erik Scott de Bie

'Tis easier to destroy than to create.

Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars"
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
36784 Posts

Posted - 29 Aug 2012 :  22:46:28  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I can see deities being allowed to suffer consequences -- but not to the point of "I cast a spell and deity A keels over dead!" That sounds like something out of a munchkin gaming session, not something that belongs in a setting like the Realms.

There's a difference between allowing a slap on the wrist and being nerfed.

It's just over the top, kinda like something I once heard about from Star Trek, with someone find the Off switch for the entire Borg race.

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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 29 Aug 2012 22:47:43
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15724 Posts

Posted - 29 Aug 2012 :  23:06:08  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Not that I want to defend Lady Penitent, but I think it was a bit more then mortals casting the spell and everyone forgetting. Even using artifacts to cast High Magic - something I am loathe to accept - can be reasoned-out.

It wasn't about what the mortals did, or High magic, or Telu'Kiira, or even about the drow. It was about the Sava game. The 'magic ritual' was the tool used by the rules of the game to enact the final edict. Had Kiaransalee not lost the Sava game, what they did would not be possible. The game bent probability to allow that course of events to happen.

If not that, something else would have been contrived in the mortal realm to make Kiaransalee 'go away', because that was the rules she agreed to. Deities are bound by their agreements, and the universe will warp around such contracts to see them fulfilled.

Kinda cheesy, and certainly not lore I want to defend, but it is what it is.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
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USA
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Posted - 29 Aug 2012 :  23:24:21  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
So it's all because a deity agreed to play a game, with someone who wanted to destroy her, that would allow this destruction to happen?

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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
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Posted - 29 Aug 2012 :  23:25:13  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Like I said, it is what it is. I don't like it either.

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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High

Australia
31701 Posts

Posted - 30 Aug 2012 :  02:05:16  Show Profile Send The Sage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Matt James

Gah! Erik is bringing up many of the points I was about to until I read page 2.

Kiaransalee likely still exists in some fashion, just not with Toril. She could, theoretically return, but it would require remnants of lore that speaks of her. This would have to ignite a fire of worshippers that then help her to regain power. Ultimately, this is the absolute most difficult path. She is, for all intents and purposes, dead.
But what of the worshippers who still pray to her?

This is what I queried with Erik's postings earlier. Ed's always told us that deities never truly die. That even when their bodies are floating dormant and decayed on the Astral Plane, that a spark of divinity still remains in their forms due to the slightest utterances of what remains of their faithful on the mortal sphere.

So how can a deity be removed and forgotten from the Tablets... unless, of course, the removal of a deity's name also results in them being "forgotten" by their worshipper base as well?
quote:
Edit to add: She also lost the memory of herself, which makes having followers really difficult. She would likely deny her existance (thus she goes *poof*)

Ah. So even if some worshippers still remained and prayed to her to keep that divine spark alive, Kiaransalee probably wouldn't be able to acknowledge it or derive strength from it due to the fact that she would have no idea what it all means.

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Aulduron
Learned Scribe

USA
343 Posts

Posted - 30 Aug 2012 :  09:32:22  Show Profile Send Aulduron a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Saying that making worshippers forget the deity results in the immediate powering down of the deity is like saying the deity is a lamp and the worships are the electricity. Pull the plug, the light goes out.


Wasn't that the point of the Time of Troubles?

quote:
Also, if that was all that was needed, why didn't Lolth have them target Corellon? He's the one that cast her out, and he's the one she's got the most serious mad-on against.


It was Eilistraee's worshiper (game piece) that did it. At that time in the story the Crones were messing with the way magic works in the Underdark, and said wizard was trying, and failing, to stop it.

Markus is right. The whole series is a winner take all game of sava, between Lolth and her daughter, with AO watching. Kira-chica joined the game in progress. The actions of the mortal characters were dictated by the goddesses moves on the board.

Nobody on Toril is praying to her. They don't remember her name. A great many of her worshipers were undead, and IIRC, her magic no longer sustains them.

Lolth started the game to control all dark elven souls, but Correlon took his daughters place once she lost.

"Those with talent become wizards, Those without talent spend their lives praying for it"

-Procopio Septus
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Irennan
Great Reader

Italy
3802 Posts

Posted - 30 Aug 2012 :  10:18:15  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Aulduron


quote:
Also, if that was all that was needed, why didn't Lolth have them target Corellon? He's the one that cast her out, and he's the one she's got the most serious mad-on against.


It was Eilistraee's worshiper (game piece) that did it. At that time in the story the Crones were messing with the way magic works in the Underdark, and said wizard was trying, and failing, to stop it.

Markus is right. The whole series is a winner take all game of sava, between Lolth and her daughter, with AO watching. Kira-chica joined the game in progress. The actions of the mortal characters were dictated by the goddesses moves on the board.

Nobody on Toril is praying to her. They don't remember her name. A great many of her worshipers were undead, and IIRC, her magic no longer sustains them.


That just shifts the question: why wasn't Lolth's name erased? That would've been a big step towards solving the indoctrination of the drow as well...

quote:
Lolth started the game to control all dark elven souls, but Correlon took his daughters place once she lost.



As I see it, Corellon only took previous Eilistraee's (and Vhaeraun's) followers as his. It is even said that Eilistraee's quest is no longer necessary because ''the unwilling were cast down'' (seriously...). In fact Corellon isn't doing anything to try to redeem and free the drow, and his clerics just hate them and kill them on sight as it was before. Corellon sitting at the table was something to symbolize the conflict between Lolth and the Seldarine IMO (and it would make little sense to give Corellon Eilistraee's role, as it was him who powered the genius move to doom a whole race for no valid reason). To further support this is the fact that the new lore that was in store for the siblings assumed that the game stripped them of their divinity and that they would've continued their quest as archfey (a conclusion that would fit them, and without Corellon stepping in, AFAIK). Alas, this solution didn't make it into the published Realms (not yet, at least), but it's something...

Also the whole game thingy is something that they could've easily avoided. Besides being a cheap tool to remove deities, it made even more prominent the idea that drow act mainly out of divine will, not out of their own volition (and extended it even to Eilistraeens and Vhaerunites, who are supposed to be free...), which is some ugly concept. And it was a cruel game, and Lolth's game. None of the deities would've accepted to play by Lolth's ''rules'', even more so because it wasn't necessary for their goals (they could've easily continued what they were doing without it).

Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things.

Edited by - Irennan on 30 Aug 2012 10:31:07
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Kiaransalyn
Senior Scribe

United Kingdom
762 Posts

Posted - 30 Aug 2012 :  10:28:38  Show Profile Send Kiaransalyn a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

Matt James says above that Kia-chica lost the memory of herself, as well. This means that mortal magic can brainwash a deity.


And how exactly does that tally up with being immune to mind influencing effects too? Could that be explained please?

Being made to forget your own name, or who or what you are is a mind-influencing effect in my book.

(Sorry, I did say I was jumping out of the thread.)

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TBeholder
Great Reader

2399 Posts

Posted - 30 Aug 2012 :  10:53:57  Show Profile Send TBeholder a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by _Jarlaxle_

Well, a lot of people stated it as a fact that mystra was killed by getting a stick punched on her head
Speaking of her - in which way the proposed circumstances of Qilue's death differ from the circumstances of her birth? Remembering that Mystra acted immediately and Eilistraee got enough of a divine rank to run proper multi-presence.
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

I object to mortals being able to so easily take out a deity.
[...]
And I don't recall anything saying that cutting off worship equalled the instant destruction of the deity. Kia-chica should have had the option of trying to re-establish worship, in the Realms or elsewhere, instead of instantly keeling over.
I refferred above to "power reserve inside her domain" - it would eventually go stale, yup... eventually.
But there's also equaling "forget the name" with "cutting off worship", what with other names, titles, etc.
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie

@Alys et al: Jergal is also a god of fate. I don't think we need one particular god to be the arbiter of such a nebulous concept.
And Tyche was, too.
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie

@Wooly et al: I don't think there's anything "easy" about putting together a pseudo-high magic spell from ancient elven artifacts from before the Descent and successfully casting it. (Or maybe you do think that was easy, just as Karsus casting his spell to consume Mystryl was easy?)
Exactly! IMO, if the premise of High Magic was "a certain kind of magical creatures studies magic and their interaction with it so deep the latter approaches psionics from the other end, and it's still inherently appliable only to them" as it seems to be, and it's still a challenge to the experienced casters, acting through tools alone should not happen at all.
And again, if such tricks were possible at all, elves who should know what it's about really well - such as Mythantar - would already try this hard and long before resorting to purely arcane imitations.
So, the drow who are not what S'Sri'TelQuessir were did it going just by some recovered knowledge - outdated also because the Weave isn't what it once was either - where the old masters failed despite being up to date and knowing the matter inside and out personally? Who's next - a bunch of Red Wizards with that magic switchboard?
As to Karsus, he tried to briefly (though long enough that it would break the Weave beyond repair) borrow her power, no? And even this was ludicrously hard - what with those enchanted ancient gold dragon gizzards and much more magical power than the Weave could afford to give after this very incident. And due to the latter consideration, without other problems the most expectable outcome would be: nothing happens, then suddenly Azuth drops in and gives a brief speech along the line "Hey, you know, that was a really good idea... but sadly... NO - and don't even try this again".
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie

Nor do I think it destroyed Kiaransalee, so much as set her back a bit. Remember, she did much the same thing to Orcus, who wasn't even a god, and he came back. I highly doubt the Revenancer was put down for the count by this event.
Also, there's no evidence that Kiaransalee suffered in other planes, only in Realmspace. The pseudo-high magic severed her connection to the Realms, but she might be just as powerful elsewhere.
That "erasing her name from every worshipers mind? Even from the mind of the very goddess herself" thing. IMHO even affecting from outside (other than with summons creating spell crystals, which theoretically may still be caught by the wrong guy and/or become demarax chow) petitioners and mortals inside her own domain - where a deity's will is supposed to be almost a law of nature - would be too much.

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Thauranil
Master of Realmslore

India
1591 Posts

Posted - 30 Aug 2012 :  14:02:58  Show Profile Send Thauranil a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder



So, the drow who are not what S'Sri'TelQuessir were did it going just by some recovered knowledge - outdated also because the Weave isn't what it once was either - where the old masters failed despite being up to date and knowing the matter inside and out personally? Who's next - a bunch of Red Wizards with that magic switchboard?
As to Karsus, he tried to briefly (though long enough that it would break the Weave beyond repair) borrow her power, no? And even this was ludicrously hard - what with those enchanted ancient gold dragon gizzards and much more magical power than the Weave could afford to give after this very incident. And due to the latter consideration, without other problems the most expectable outcome would be: nothing happens, then suddenly Azuth drops in and gives a brief speech along the line "Hey, you know, that was a really good idea... but sadly... NO - and don't even try this again".
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie

Nor do I think it destroyed Kiaransalee, so much as set her back a bit. Remember, she did much the same thing to Orcus, who wasn't even a god, and he came back. I highly doubt the Revenancer was put down for the count by this event.
Also, there's no evidence that Kiaransalee suffered in other planes, only in Realmspace. The pseudo-high magic severed her connection to the Realms, but she might be just as powerful elsewhere.
That "erasing her name from every worshipers mind? Even from the mind of the very goddess herself" thing. IMHO even affecting from outside (other than with summons creating spell crystals, which theoretically may still be caught by the wrong guy and/or become demarax chow) petitioners and mortals inside her own domain - where a deity's will is supposed to be almost a law of nature - would be too much.



First of all the drow might not be able to cast High magic spells but Dark elves are perfectly capable, why shouldn't they be. They are as elvish as any sun elf or moon elf. Drow cant cast them because they cannot ever trust each other sufficiently. Also since there were young drow wizards acting as the conduits , the kiaras could simply read their minds to catch up on the changes to the weave.
Finally her home plane was at that time joined together with Lolths and one of the conditions of the game was that deities would use their followers to fight to the DEATH. Thus normal rules do not apply, you dont like it dont play.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
36784 Posts

Posted - 30 Aug 2012 :  16:34:58  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Thauranil

Finally her home plane was at that time joined together with Lolths and one of the conditions of the game was that deities would use their followers to fight to the DEATH. Thus normal rules do not apply, you dont like it dont play.



So why did she agree to play a game that could result in her destruction?

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Irennan
Great Reader

Italy
3802 Posts

Posted - 30 Aug 2012 :  16:42:01  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
That's one of the fallacies in that thing. Every deity in the drow pantheon simply accepted to play Lolth's game, even tho they didn't need it at all to pursue their goals (and even tho the game was cruel, as it involved mortal lives wasted as pawns, which neither eilistraeens nor vhaerunites are supposed to be). It was simply some tool to remove the pantheon.

Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things.

Edited by - Irennan on 30 Aug 2012 16:45:05
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15724 Posts

Posted - 30 Aug 2012 :  17:04:49  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I think we can all agree there were a few major holes in Lady Penitent.

I don't know why the drow deities agreed to such a thing, in less they all figured it was the only chance they would ever get to defeat Lolth for good. Flimsy, I know. The 'risking everything to defeat ultimate evil' is certainly not a drow personality trait. I've also already explained how the game itself may have tipped the laws of probability in the favor of the magical ritual cast (a ritual that should not have worked otherwise, nor ever will again).

Very wishy-washy, but still explainable (barely).

As for Kiaransalee forgetting herself - I think that she possibly only had one incarnation (greater Avatar) within Realmspace, and that was what was affected. That Avatar was fueled by the Torillian Drow's worship, and once that power-source was severed, the Avatar withered and died (why they needed to add in the part about her forgetting herself I have no idea - it was just 'insult to injury').

We have a precedent of sorts for this - the Mulan deities. Their center of divine power (self?) was not allowed entry into Realmspace, so individual, demigod-esque Incarnataions were allowed. This meant that in their case, "what you see is what you get" (the avatar IS the deity, in the case of FR). Kiaransalee may have been given a similar 'visa' (Ao's rules of Interloping have never been fully revealed). That was what was affected by the ritual. This means that as far as Torillians are concerned, it all went-down precisely as the novels say it did. However, in a greater, multiversal theater, much more (or less) was actually going on. Whats true for one 'reality' (world) may not be true for others.

As for Drow not being able to cast High Magic, I think that is because High Magic is at least in-part powered by the Seldarine (they put their stamp of approval on it, an give it a boost). That being the case, this means that other power-sources should be able to fuel the magic itself (like the anti-Seldarine). Another option is that Corellon finally allowed it, because Eilistraee didn't really belong in the anti-Seldarine in the first place. take your pick.

As I said, its all explainable, but its a shame we have to pile so many excuses on top of each other to make it all work. Lore should never require that level of tinkering to make it palatable.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 30 Aug 2012 17:06:32
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Gustaveren
Learned Scribe

Denmark
197 Posts

Posted - 30 Aug 2012 :  17:11:39  Show Profile  Visit Gustaveren's Homepage Send Gustaveren a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay


As for Kiaransalee forgetting herself - I think that she possibly only had one incarnation (greater Avatar) within Realmspace, and that was what was affected. That Avatar was fueled by the Torillian Drow's worship, and once that power-source was severed, the Avatar withered and died (why they needed to add in the part about her forgetting herself I have no idea - it was just 'insult to injury').



Some of her worshipers were undeath. She did have a strong temple complex beneath the Galena mountains and there were many banshees present in that one. Should their worship not be sufficient to keep her divine status intact?
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Irennan
Great Reader

Italy
3802 Posts

Posted - 30 Aug 2012 :  17:17:46  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

I think we can all agree there were a few major holes in Lady Penitent.

I don't know why the drow deities agreed to such a thing, in less they all figured it was the only chance they would ever get to defeat Lolth for good. Flimsy, I know. The 'risking everything to defeat ultimate evil' is certainly not a drow personality trait.


That, and there's also the fact that not everyone wanted to kill Lolth. Namely, Eilistraee. Her goal isn't killing Lolth, as her struggle for freedom is in making the drow understand that a different kind of life is possible, in guiding them to find their own way to redemption, freedom and -ultimately- happiness (and -of course- in protecting them while doing so). Killing Lolth would've brought on the drow another WotSQ-like cataclysm (you know, mages vs priestesses, other races trying to destroy the drow), leading to yet another huge bloodshed, as drow minds' wouldn't be changed by the simple death of Lolth: one someone is brainwashed you don't simply snap fingers and make him/her reasonable (and this is a huge part in Eilistraee's goal).

At this point I'm only ranting, and I apologize for the OT.

Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things.

Edited by - Irennan on 30 Aug 2012 17:18:59
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author

USA
4598 Posts

Posted - 30 Aug 2012 :  17:30:54  Show Profile  Visit Erik Scott de Bie's Homepage Send Erik Scott de Bie a Private Message  Reply with Quote
@Kia: We've already discussed why the "immune to mind-affecting magic" didn't apply. Kiaransalee was depowered substantially when her followers were taken from her, and her divine protections failed.

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by Thauranil

Finally her home plane was at that time joined together with Lolths and one of the conditions of the game was that deities would use their followers to fight to the DEATH. Thus normal rules do not apply, you dont like it dont play.
So why did she agree to play a game that could result in her destruction?
Because of the potential rewards of winning.

If Eilistraee won, she would accomplish her goal of breaking Lolth's stranglehold on the drow. This battle with Lolth was the culmination of her entire existence.

If Vhaeraun won, he would accomplish his goal of killing Lolth and destroying the matriarchy of the drow. Again, culmination of his entire existence.

If Kiaransalee won, she would have her vengeance on Lolth and dominate the drow pantheon (as the only deity left).

That's just the nature of the game. The stakes were high, and if you don't take risks, you'll never win. This was Eilistraee and the other gods' best chance, and Eilistraee achieved at least a partial victory.

Cheers

Erik Scott de Bie

'Tis easier to destroy than to create.

Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars"
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