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Mournblade
Master of Realmslore
USA
1288 Posts |
 Posted - 28 Aug 2012 : 20:51:05
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quote:
Originally posted by The Hidden Lord
I'm thinking about returning to the Horde Crusade. We played it when it was new, back in the day, but I'm going to run a game in 1358 detailing another groups activities, then have the antagonist return, in 1483, his long term lich plan finally arising for a new set of characters to thwart.
I can't wait wait until my players see how their lore from their 1380's characters weave into the past and future.
I can hear them now, "What, the sword of Kalamacus has been reforged, and and Darkoth was Aerilees murder? And the battle of the Crusade was the backdrop for the begining of this plot!!!"
The Horde is such an excellent campaign area. We were going to play kara Tur back in the early 90's, but we thought we could get a hyperborean flavor campaign going in the hordlands. And it worked.
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A wizard is Never late Frodo Baggins. Nor is he Early. A wizard arrives precisely when he means to... |
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Gustaveren
Learned Scribe
Denmark
197 Posts |
Posted - 28 Aug 2012 : 20:54:24
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I think, that if I were to run a new FR campaign, would I place it in 1369 DR
I would then via visions, divinations, prophecies, give the players a warning of potential future threats like the arrival of shade, the spellplague etc.
That would create a campaign were the players could work hard to prevent that future from occuring if they wanted to prevent it.
I guess, i would have the wizard wake up after having had a nightmare of mystra being murdered and the arrival of the spellplague with it's devastating consequences for the realms and for magic
while seeing the arrival of shade
would he hear mystra's soft voice saying, these shar wizards made it possible.
When he or she wake up would he see mystra's mark tattooed on the torso and glowing with a faint azure light
Basically, in her dieing moments do mystra send a message back in time in order to prevent the future from occuring.
That could give a cool campaign. |
Edited by - Gustaveren on 28 Aug 2012 21:15:16 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36968 Posts |
Posted - 28 Aug 2012 : 21:59:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Gustaveren
I think, that if I were to run a new FR campaign, would I place it in 1369 DR
I would then via visions, divinations, prophecies, give the players a warning of potential future threats like the arrival of shade, the spellplague etc.
That would create a campaign were the players could work hard to prevent that future from occuring if they wanted to prevent it.
I guess, i would have the wizard wake up after having had a nightmare of mystra being murdered and the arrival of the spellplague with it's devastating consequences for the realms and for magic
while seeing the arrival of shade
would he hear mystra's soft voice saying, these shar wizards made it possible.
When he or she wake up would he see mystra's mark tattooed on the torso and glowing with a faint azure light
Basically, in her dieing moments do mystra send a message back in time in order to prevent the future from occuring.
That could give a cool campaign.
I, personally, would pursue it from a slightly different angle: one (or more) of her Chosen sacrifices him- or herself -- and the remnants of Mystra's essence, that they still carry -- to send a group of adventures back from 1480ish, to prevent Mystra's murder. |
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The Hidden Lord
Learned Scribe
148 Posts |
Posted - 28 Aug 2012 : 22:10:20
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Meh.
I try to let Greenwood write 'Chosen' stories. Regular old fashion heroes can save the world once in a while, too.
Gustaveren, if you started in 1369, you'd have 3 in-game years until Shade... Which would be, what 10-12 years worth of game play for your group?
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 28 Aug 2012 : 22:12:58
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I still think a "The day After" campaign (set immediately following the death of Mystra) is the best option. You can do whatever you want, use whatever you want from any era, choose the rules you want (from any company), and borrow from any other setting you want (people AND places) without violating ANY canon.
Its perfect.
And everyone is in 'survival mode', and all bets are off. Friends can become enemies, and enemies can become friends. Its the ultimate reset. Hell, you could even take the map of Golarion and say its the Realms - we have no material stating otherwise. Or you could use the Realms map and the Golarion material. There is nothing to stop you from doing whatever you want.
One might argue we could always do that, but five minutes after Mystra died, we can do that and still not violate canon, which seems important to a lot of folks. Its also the perfect setting for a DM who likes to railroad his players - there are no rules. Magic has run amok, and nothing is as it seems. No matter what they do, you can skew the results to whatever you want. Time and physics become meaningless. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Gustaveren
Learned Scribe
Denmark
197 Posts |
Posted - 28 Aug 2012 : 22:41:43
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quote:
Originally posted by The Hidden Lord
Meh.
I try to let Greenwood write 'Chosen' stories. Regular old fashion heroes can save the world once in a while, too.
Gustaveren, if you started in 1369, you'd have 3 in-game years until Shade... Which would be, what 10-12 years worth of game play for your group?
I want to let the group have time for doing other stuff, to learn and grow, but at the same time feel, they are able to shape the future of the realms, if they make an effort.
I was also considering, that they might need a good amount of time for research
I was considering, that they could obtain that warning while at low levels, for instance, if camping in the ruins of an old temple to mystra during the first game session
It could be a really epic campaign, the players would have the chance to save the beloved realms from the ultimate evil fate if they made a true effort |
Edited by - Gustaveren on 28 Aug 2012 23:13:08 |
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oneiroi gate
Acolyte
United Kingdom
4 Posts |
Posted - 28 Aug 2012 : 23:18:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I think thats kind of the gist of whats going on.
Thats why I said above "if a mortal kills a deity, all bets are off". Ao is the 'god of gods', not mortals. The greatest secret may be that he has absolutely no power over mortals at all (except to grant them divine status, which may just be his way of 'reeling them in').
If it were the case that only gods killed via mortals were in fact utterly dead, which ones would be utterly dead?
Moander, Selvetarm? Any more? |
" [...] The more the power is exercised the higher and stronger becomes the character; till the height of heroism is reached in men who renounce the pleasures of life and even life itself for the sake of winning for others, perhaps in distant ages, the blessings of freedom and truth.” James George Frazer, The Golden Bough |
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deserk
Learned Scribe
Norway
239 Posts |
Posted - 28 Aug 2012 : 23:51:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
The Endless Wastes (Taan) have tons of potential - the old material has plot-hooks in every entry.
People tend to forget how different different parts of that area are - everyone focuses on the Tuigan. Despite their might and pervasiveness in the region, there is a LOT of other things going on, and at least a dozen other nations/political entities. Even amongst themselves, the Tuigan (Taangan) tribes differ mightily. The Tuigan are really just one sub-ethnic group amongst them.
While I'd love a new Horde Campaign book, I know that it is not popular enough to be worth doing a print book (for WotC). Ergo, that is the perfect example of a region that should be broken-up into $2.99 articles (Murghôm, Semphar, The Raurin, Fallen Guge, The Wastes, etc, etc). I think they could milk that region for a good $30-75 in that manner (and no-one will balk at the $3 price tags).
Its also a pretty damn good region for non-era-specific lore. Except for a few major developments - mostly in the distant past - the Taan has remained static until the The Horde campaign.
To me, the Hordelands and the Tuigan's situation there, reminds me a bit too much of the Mongol invasions of the Middle East and Europe. It just all feels very similar, and thus it's kind of hard to take it seriously in FR. Same issue with the Helmite "Cortez" thing in Maztica...
I don't think Tuigans should necessarily be rid of completely, but the Hordelands is quite a big territory and I feel it's wasted by being dominated by Tuigans that much. I would like to see it more fragmented, and having different cultures and factions there. For example, it could be cool to see Raumathauri take back some chunks of the land (even though they are admittedly a small minority now), and turn it into an evil fiend-influenced magocracy like in the olden days of Raumauthar. Or perhaps other portions of it could serve as a homeland for the grey orcs possibly (would really like to see more orcish realms about, to properly reflect how much a menace they are)
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
That being said, I have nothing against Tyr. I just think he was a bit redundant, and having a female take his place would be a step in the right direction (for many, many reasons). Besides, the red Knight really needs a better name (although Tyress does sound a bit too much like Sharess... maybe Tyrana? hmmm... that sounds like a female tyrant god...)
I think a female "paladin" goddess (demigod perhaps) could be a good idea. I kind of feel that Tyr's comes off a bit too unsympathetic and judgemental, and seems more Lawful Neutral on occasions, than Lawful Good.
I also agree that the Red Knight could be far more interesting if she had a proper name rather than a title. |
Edited by - deserk on 28 Aug 2012 23:54:00 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36968 Posts |
Posted - 28 Aug 2012 : 23:58:22
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quote:
Originally posted by deserk
I also agree that the Red Knight could be far more interesting if she had a proper name rather than a title.
Depends on the name. "The Red Knight" is a far more interesting name than "Susan," for example.
Nothing against anyone with that name! I was thinking of the bit from The Tick:
Tick: It's your turn now, Thorace-bog.
Thrakkorzog: It's Thrakkorzog. Thrakkorzog. With a K.
Tick: We're only serving humble pie, Whatchamazog.
Thrakkorzog: For the last time, it's...
Tick: Thorax-and-a-bog. Four-yaks-and-a-dog.
Thrakkorzog: No.
Tick: Ah, laxative-log.
Thrakkorzog: No, no, no.
Tick: Sapsucker-frog.
Thrakkorzog: Thrakkorzog.
Tick: Susan?
Thrakkorzog: Now you're doing it on purpose. How juvenile.
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Venger
Learned Scribe
USA
269 Posts |
Posted - 29 Aug 2012 : 00:15:44
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| LOL! I remember that. :D |
"Beware what you say when you speak of magic, wizard, or you shall see who has the greater power." |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 29 Aug 2012 : 00:38:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Gustaveren
I think, that if I were to run a new FR campaign, would I place it in 1369 DR
I would then via visions, divinations, prophecies, give the players a warning of potential future threats like the arrival of shade, the spellplague etc.
That would create a campaign were the players could work hard to prevent that future from occuring if they wanted to prevent it.
I guess, i would have the wizard wake up after having had a nightmare of mystra being murdered and the arrival of the spellplague with it's devastating consequences for the realms and for magic
while seeing the arrival of shade
would he hear mystra's soft voice saying, these shar wizards made it possible.
When he or she wake up would he see mystra's mark tattooed on the torso and glowing with a faint azure light
Basically, in her dieing moments do mystra send a message back in time in order to prevent the future from occuring.
That could give a cool campaign.
I, personally, would pursue it from a slightly different angle: one (or more) of her Chosen sacrifices him- or herself -- and the remnants of Mystra's essence, that they still carry -- to send a group of adventures back from 1480ish, to prevent Mystra's murder.
Ideally, instead of such a particular sacrifice made by one Chosen, several Chosen could come together and each sacrifice a sliver of their own remnants of Mystra's essence in order to power the temporal sending of the party back to 1385 DR.
At least then, we don't have to loose any of Mystra's Chosen.  |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Gustaveren
Learned Scribe
Denmark
197 Posts |
Posted - 29 Aug 2012 : 01:17:05
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Well, I do know, the more I read about the discussions of 5e FR, that I am not into 5e since I prefer the campaign setting prespellplague, that is, the campaign setting I know and love and were I have the support of a large lore collection (almost all source books (with the exception of a few modules) from 1e to 4e (I did buy the 4e FR campaign guide, 4e FR player guide and also the neverwinter guide since i got that one at a 66% discount in the shop) and almost all the novels (I did buy the 4e novels even though i could not get myself to read them, that is, I guess I will soon stop buying more FR novels)).
It is very difficult for me to see why I should invest in 5e. What i want is to get my realms back, I do not want something in the far future were I have only minimal benefit from all the money and time invested in FR products and I do not want a campaign with the spellplague pollution / massive destruction of my realms.
The perfect solution for me seems to be a campaign set in 1369 DR with the players receiving a prophecy-warning about the spellplague / mystra's death and the arrival of the shades. That will make it possible with a campaign from 1.st to epic levels in order to save the realms from the ultimate evil (spellplague) by for instance preventing the arrival of the shades. |
Edited by - Gustaveren on 29 Aug 2012 01:26:40 |
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Seravin
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1304 Posts |
Posted - 29 Aug 2012 : 02:12:42
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^ have to agree with Gustaveren. I have no interest in the post spellplague realms. A reboot would have brought me back into paying customer. Doing another RSE to undo the horrific effects of the last RSE and push us further into the future and away from the Realms that was so popular and magical and wonderful of he 1360s-1370s doesn't interest me.
I don't care about the post spell plague realms at all.
I will for SURE buy Ed's book (already pre-ordered) because his version of the Realms is much more cannon to me than anything the (my opinion only) idiots who decided to force the spellplague on us and jump the timeline ahead by 100 years have put out.
I will happily buy more books on Ed's version of the Realms as an alternate universe. That is worth my money. AND, any books written in the pre-spellplague/time jump era (Like the series Ed did on the Knights of Myth Drannor in the late 2000s which was set before the ToT). So if anyone at WoTC is listening, that's where I would spend money and I don't think I'm alone in that.
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 29 Aug 2012 : 02:57:25
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| Guys, I thought it was already a given that there WILL be lore for pre-Spellplague campaigns in 5th/Next. And from the looks of it, even some of the 4th lore may be erased or at least "fixed" to appeal to more fans. Give it some time and let the designers actually start putting things together before you write it off completely. And mind you, this is coming from someone who has pretty much COMPLETELY ignored (nearly) everything 4th ed related. I've read a few post-Spellplague novels, but haven't even touched any of the game material in that time-period. But the potential of hwat they are trying to do with 5th has me hopeful that I may again pick up new books, and that they will be useful to me no matter what rules I choose to use. That says much about the new direction, I think. |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
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Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 29 Aug 2012 : 03:02:43
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5th edition is really just the rules (actually, officially there is NO 5e - its D&Dnext).
The next iteration of FR isn't so much an edition, as it is a new presentation. Sure we will get post-plague material, but I have a feeling we will be getting far more pre-plague material, and thats a good thing.
Not because I have 'an inside track' or anything like that (I wish) - it just makes sense. FR has 36,000+ years of history, and only a century of it falls-out post plague. If they mean to stick to 'support for all eras', that means the ratio of material should be about 360 to 1.
I like those odds.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 29 Aug 2012 03:04:00 |
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Gustaveren
Learned Scribe
Denmark
197 Posts |
Posted - 29 Aug 2012 : 09:32:21
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Well, I think it will be a challenge / impossible to save FR at this time
1) Many gaming groups have sold their entire collections of FR and D&D products when 4e D&D came out. 4e was then a massive disappoint. They then reacted by moving to other systems and other campaign worlds. Those groups are not going to come back even if there are new pre-spellplague books since they now lack the necessary basis and since they feel betrayed by WOTC.
2) Well, in case there is a book with multi-era support, I am not going to buy it if it is just a limited amount of lore pages there is interesting for the time period i will play in, I will not buy it if it is rule heavy and I will not buy it if it's just an adventure. I make my own adventures. The only reasons I brought modules in the past was in the hope they contained some extra lore. Basically, those 5e multiera books will not be on my need to have list and there is a good chance they will not be on my nice to have list unless they are sold at a heavy discount. I might pick them up later in the secondhand market.
The kind of books there will have my interest would be
1) Beautiful books about coins, coat of arms, historical puzzles, herbs, historical items, famous paintings
2) Detailed descriptions of the part of the world there has not yet been described
3) Update of realms like kara-tur, maztica etc to 1370
4) Detailed FR lore books on FR specific cities and realms in other planes.
5) IT-programs making it easy to make map handouts, texts with runes etc
6) 1370 volo guides to more areas
7) more history related guides (changes in territory, ancestry lines for kings in different realms) |
Edited by - Gustaveren on 29 Aug 2012 09:33:27 |
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Gustaveren
Learned Scribe
Denmark
197 Posts |
Posted - 29 Aug 2012 : 10:30:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
Guys, I thought it was already a given that there WILL be lore for pre-Spellplague campaigns in 5th/Next. And from the looks of it, even some of the 4th lore may be erased or at least "fixed" to appeal to more fans. Give it some time and let the designers actually start putting things together before you write it off completely. And mind you, this is coming from someone who has pretty much COMPLETELY ignored (nearly) everything 4th ed related. I've read a few post-Spellplague novels, but haven't even touched any of the game material in that time-period. But the potential of hwat they are trying to do with 5th has me hopeful that I may again pick up new books, and that they will be useful to me no matter what rules I choose to use. That says much about the new direction, I think.
I am sceptical
I like lore intensitive, high complexity, well thoughtout high detail campaign worlds with continuity. I do not think they can create such books when
a) they are moving forward in time and have to devote pages to post spellplague descriptions, that is time and events i am going to avoid / make preventable in my campaigns
b) I highly doubt they can make books with enough interesting pre spellplague lore since new fans are lacking the lore base line there is common among older fans.
c) I am not interested in age neutral city descriptions. I like for my cities to feel alive, that is, to be affected by history and the rest of the campaign world by for instance having caravans arriving from distant lands, have changes in historical building styles depending upon culture / population changes and so forth. Seems to me there will be huge differences in building styles pre and post spellplague since postspellplague is a more dangerous world were magic is also a lot more unreliable. That is, post spellplague will building and city design be more defense oriented with less dependency upon magic and the citizens will be a lot more paranoid. Not the kind of material I want to use in my campaigns and definitively not something I would be prepared to pay for.
d) Adventure modules, forget it. I like to make my own adventures
In order for 5e books to be interesting would it have to be something there
1) Made the realms more lore intensitive / lore complete than 3e.
2) Had continuity with pre spellplague books in order to make sure i would continue having high value from existing source book collection.
3) Have a campaign world with a positive mood and a campaign world there give feelings of nostalgia
4) Massively reduce RSE's. I hate them as the plague
5) If i am to move forward in time would there have to be lore sourcebook support for the new time there could rival the sourcebook coverage from prespellplague time.
I find it highly unlikely that WOTC will fulfill point 1 to 5, that is, I see no point in making campaigns there will be dependent upon stuff from 5e. Why let canon place constraints on you if you already decided to break canon and why invest money in something you do not intend to use? |
Edited by - Gustaveren on 29 Aug 2012 10:51:15 |
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Gustaveren
Learned Scribe
Denmark
197 Posts |
Posted - 30 Aug 2012 : 12:11:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Gustaveren
I think, that if I were to run a new FR campaign, would I place it in 1369 DR
I would then via visions, divinations, prophecies, give the players a warning of potential future threats like the arrival of shade, the spellplague etc.
That would create a campaign were the players could work hard to prevent that future from occuring if they wanted to prevent it.
I guess, i would have the wizard wake up after having had a nightmare of mystra being murdered and the arrival of the spellplague with it's devastating consequences for the realms and for magic
while seeing the arrival of shade
would he hear mystra's soft voice saying, these shar wizards made it possible.
When he or she wake up would he see mystra's mark tattooed on the torso and glowing with a faint azure light
Basically, in her dieing moments do mystra send a message back in time in order to prevent the future from occuring.
That could give a cool campaign.
I have been wondering how to deal with this, since I want the players to be the heroes there has a chance for saving the world
I was considering:
They had spend time in an ancient ruin of a mystra temple, received this prophecy, received some kind of glowing arcane marks with mystra's symbol on their body
When they try to tell someone else about it, do they find out, that some kind of magical mental wall prevents them from doing so, as if, there are divine powers trying to prevent the warning from being received in time for stopping the arrival of the spellplague.
They also realise, that they are the only one there can see these glowing arcane marks or talk about the visions.
It mean, that the players will have an epic mission from the start of the campaign and they know, that they, the heroes, will be the only one able to save the realms from a terrible future. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12194 Posts |
Posted - 31 Aug 2012 : 02:19:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
IMO, the gods vs. primordials thing is very similar to the Greek mythology of gods vs. titans. The only real similarity between them is that they are both extremely powerful, but whereas gods are morally-focused like mortals (i.e. sentient and take morally significant action), titans represent more primal forces of creation and destruction. Same thing with gods and primordials.
I myself am perfectly happy to have Toril ruled by the gods (with a couple of primordials here and there, such as the elemental princes) and Abeir ruled by the primordials (with a couple of gods here and there, maybe).
Cheers
That's exactly what I thought when I saw the primordials, and my thoughts were that someone had read the sword and sorcery stuff with the titans and gods at war. I'm not adverse to such either. As long as its well written and used. As someone else wrote, everything was turned into bland beastlands and wastelands, or countries who sole focus was what race was there. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12194 Posts |
Posted - 31 Aug 2012 : 02:34:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Tyrant
I also really like the idea being floated here of a reborn Thay in new territory that embraces a larger view of magic. I could see the Thayans being reluctant to accept Warlocks and Sorcorers and down the road they may try to marginalize them. As a psionics fan, I would throw them in as well.
Hmmm, given the area I was discussing, having some psionics or "the school of mental magic" being a school within the "United Tharchs" would actually be kind of cool. I don't see warlocks in the new area that I was describing. However, in the same threads, we brought up the idea that some Zulkirs might try to reclaim the lost Thay (I was calling them the "Reborn Thay"), and that group I can definitely see possibly having a Zulkirship dedicated to warlocks... though it might be of interest who is the power behind said warlocks (i.e. demons, devils, dark gods, far realm beings, primordials, etc...) |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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daarkknight
Seeker
USA
66 Posts |
Posted - 31 Aug 2012 : 03:55:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Gustaveren
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Hopefully we won't be stuck with this 'new editon every couple of years' paradigm forever.
The way it is now, they never give an edition enough time to fill-in all those great areas we haven't seen covered since 1e/2e. I'd rather see one version of the rules, with slight, incremental changes over 10-15 years (like 1e/AD&D) that will give us tons and tons of lore (and not just FR lore), then the same places 'rinse & repeated' every 5 years or so.
I am so sick of Menzoberanzan, you couldn't give me a new Menzo book for free. Serously, I hate the damn place. Maybe we should just rename FR 'The Land of Drizzt' and ignore everything that isn't Drow-related (because, dammit, thats precisely what it feels like). 'Drizzt World' - its like an angsty amusement park.
And now I'm slipping into rant-mode again...
I prefer rule neutral source material. I am tired of new source book versions every time that a new rule version is issued. You also have to consider, there most likely will be many pathfinder fans, there would like to run pathfinder campaigns in FR. They will not pay a large amount of money for 5e D&D rule stuff in the FR books. They will only buy FR lore.
Many old FR fans still playing older versions of D&D will also prefer books only containing lore. They have to many times experienced new TSR and WOTC rule editions. In those cases is it only the lore you can use from your older books.
I, for one, being the DM of a few Pathfinder game (including one where the group is actively trying to prevent the death of Mystra and the Spellplague), would in fact pay good money for new FR lore, even if it comes packaged with 5e rules. My love of Realms lore is greater than any rules set, including if my players and I choose to stay with Pathfinder. |
"That's it!"
Quote attributed to Talor Stormhammer, paladin of Helm, when fighting a frost giant. |
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Tyrant
Senior Scribe
USA
586 Posts |
Posted - 31 Aug 2012 : 04:07:05
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by Tyrant
I also really like the idea being floated here of a reborn Thay in new territory that embraces a larger view of magic. I could see the Thayans being reluctant to accept Warlocks and Sorcorers and down the road they may try to marginalize them. As a psionics fan, I would throw them in as well.
Hmmm, given the area I was discussing, having some psionics or "the school of mental magic" being a school within the "United Tharchs" would actually be kind of cool. I don't see warlocks in the new area that I was describing. However, in the same threads, we brought up the idea that some Zulkirs might try to reclaim the lost Thay (I was calling them the "Reborn Thay"), and that group I can definitely see possibly having a Zulkirship dedicated to warlocks... though it might be of interest who is the power behind said warlocks (i.e. demons, devils, dark gods, far realm beings, primordials, etc...)
I could see the warlocks being tied to the church of Kossuth with him as their broker (or whatever the word is for the being on the other end of the warlock pact). If that were the case, I would think they would mix in with the clergy as the more militant of the church. Alternatively, they could be like a branch of the school of Conjuration and focus on infernal pacts. In that scenario I don't think they would be treated as equals. More like a resource to be exploited by those with greater knowledge of planar creatures. |
Peace is a lie, there is only passion. Through passion, I gain strength. Through strength, I gain power. Through power, I gain victory. Through victory, my chains are broken. The Force shall free me.
-The Sith Code
Teenage Sith zombies, Tulkh thought-how in the moons of Bogden had it all started? Every so often, the universe must just get bored and decide to really cut loose. -Star Wars: Red Harvest |
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combatmedic
Senior Scribe
USA
428 Posts |
Posted - 31 Aug 2012 : 14:21:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Hopefully we won't be stuck with this 'new editon every couple of years' paradigm forever.
The way it is now, they never give an edition enough time to fill-in all those great areas we haven't seen covered since 1e/2e. I'd rather see one version of the rules, with slight, incremental changes over 10-15 years (like 1e/AD&D) that will give us tons and tons of lore (and not just FR lore), then the same places 'rinse & repeated' every 5 years or so.
I am so sick of Menzoberanzan, you couldn't give me a new Menzo book for free. Serously, I hate the damn place. Maybe we should just rename FR 'The Land of Drizzt' and ignore everything that isn't Drow-related (because, dammit, thats precisely what it feels like). 'Drizzt World' - its like an angsty amusement park.
And now I'm slipping into rant-mode again...
I tend to agree with you on much of that, but let's consider the economics behind Hasbro's thinking (so far as we can guess at it).
What sells?
Core rules sell best. That has,I think, been true of pretty nearly every edition of the game. The AD&D 1E 'core' (PHB, DMG, MM) were huge sellers. That’s also true with the 3.0 core (PHB, DMG, MM). PHBs are bigger sellers because everybody buys them.
Splat books are next down the line. Players as well as DMs buy these, and there are more players than DMs. Many players love splat books.
Modules sometimes sell well, but I understand that many do not. Usually only DMs buy them.
Other play aids may do okay; many fail to sell well.
Settings are tricky. They might sell well, but for everyone who likes and invests in a given setting, how many gamers dislike that setting or simply don't but it because they are running something else? A lot of guys run homebrew settings and are not in the market for expensive world specific sourcebooks. Some settings are so specialized that they have only a narrow appeal, niche-within-a-niche. Others are deemed ‘vanilla’ by fans of more tightly constructed worlds, and hence get ignored. Within the fan base for any setting, there are invariably disgruntled gamers who just can't stand something about the way the designers have handled some change or another. Canon wars rage.
Given all of the above, releasing a new set edition of core rules every few years seems smart. They just have to write rules that will sell well, and be careful not to jump the gun. New core rules mean the publisher can cash in on a new round of splat books and perhaps some new or remade settings, before the profits taper off and it’s time for a new edition. Rinse and repeat.
There are smaller game companies that can afford to use a different model, but I’m not sure that Wizards could feasibly do anything but what they have been doing.
All of this is based on what I have read on industry blogs, my gaming and game-buying career, and observations of patterns in the hobby. I am not an expert. I haven’t run a game company.
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YMMV= Your Mileage May Vary. I'm putting it here so I don't have to type it in every other post. :) |
Edited by - combatmedic on 31 Aug 2012 14:25:38 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 31 Aug 2012 : 17:34:12
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So what you are saying is that anything Hasbro does in the RPG market is doomed to failure.
Years ago I used to do all my shopping (for my construction work) at Home Depot, because it was convenient. I used to have to go to a dozen different stores for what I needed, but HD put it all under one roof, at great prices. Then nearly all the 'mom & pop' places went out of business. As time went on, their corporate muckity-mucks decided that they would only carry products that made lots of money (this paradigm is called 'shelf real estate' - a shelf has to make a minimum amount of money per month or the product gets switched-out for something else).
Now HD only carries its best sellers... making the store completely useless to me. Their hardware section went from an entire aisle to one tiny 4' area (the stuff in the drawers). They use to carry 13 colors of shutters and about seven colors of window blinds - now they just carry white. I find myself going back to what few mom & pop shops are left to get myself all the speciality stuff I need (like texture material to add to paint).
A couple of year ago they began to close stores, for the first time ever. They are scratching their heads and wondering why thats happening. At the same time, they continue to downsize their product line to just the 'fast movers'. Eventually they will downsize themselves right out of business (and they know this - I used to work for them, and they planed to go from a retailer to an installer-based operation).
Wendy's doesn't make money off their dollar menu. Neither does BK or McDonalds. They make the money off the soda (which cost them about 5¢, and most of that is the cup). They make almost a 4000% mark up on that soda.
D&D needs to be more like fast food, and less like Home depot. You want to sell the items you make the most off of, you have to sell a few that you don't make anything off of. The "only sell whats profitable" paradigm doesn't work - its the fallacy of corporate America, who make decisions based on pie charts, not RW marketing strategies. If they continue down that road - and produce new editions every couple of years - kiss D&D and FR goodbye. I have enough FR (and D&D) material to last me a lifetime; I want something new. I don't want to buy any more recycled crap I don't need. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 31 Aug 2012 17:36:04 |
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idilippy
Senior Scribe
USA
417 Posts |
Posted - 31 Aug 2012 : 18:22:10
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| I accept that it's conventional wisdom that modules don't sell well, yet there Paizo is with their Pathfinder RPG. The Adventure Paths are their bread and butter, sure they release hardcovers of rules but they release every bit of the mechanics in them for free online, and sell $9.99 pdfs of their hardcover rulebooks. I don't know if that strategy will work for WotC, especially if their adventures haven't improved, but it does work for Paizo so it doesn't necessarily follow that only core books sell. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 31 Aug 2012 : 18:30:20
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It can't work for WotC, because WotC is owned by Hasbro, which has much stricter standards when it comes to 'profitability'.
If you or I made 100 thousand off something we wrote, it would be pure win. To Hasbro, thats a loss. Thats the problem with such a large company owning a niche hobby.
The guys who are running things over at WotC now I have faith in - I met James Wyatt at Gencon and he seems genuine (and I have only misjudged people twice in my life). The problem isn't them - its who they answer to.
This is why D&Dnext and 5eFR has to be a homerun. We don't just want it to be - it NEEDS to be.
ON-Topic:
I want cannons. We've had Smoke-powder long enough, and its time it got a little more attention. I think making the tech level of FR appropriate to the same earth-year would work fine now.
By keeping the 'magic' in Smoke-powder, DMs can adjust how much of this he/she wants in their campaign. However, i don't want it to just get ignored again. maybe a brief mention in the CG and then an article or two.
Think 'Jack Sparrow' - how important were guns to the movies? canons were used a lot, but they made a point of Jack only firing his gun once, at the very end of the movie. Guns don't have to have prominence, but cannons make for excellent pirate-style campaigns, and FR has several very cool 'pirate areas' that get neglected.
A train might be too high-tech for The Realms, but I don't think cannon would rock the boat (pun intended). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 31 Aug 2012 18:39:54 |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3823 Posts |
Posted - 31 Aug 2012 : 18:37:42
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| And what would Hasbro exactly expect from a niche hobby? I hope they realize that this isn't and doesn't sell like one of their toys... |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 31 Aug 2012 : 18:44:32
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Someone linked to an excellent article in another thread, about what happened 'behind the scenes'.
Basically, the WotC guys are trying to push Hasbro into accepting WotC as a single brand (which increases the profitability on paper). If Hasbro considers D&D, MtG, etc, as separate brands, then each much stand on its own. Thats a VERY bad thing for us.
At Gencon, the folks at the D&D booth told me "the MtG booth keeps them all working". Thats a very scary situation for them to be in. Maybe we should all go out and buy a few hundred decks of magic cards (until 5e is released). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 31 Aug 2012 18:45:59 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12194 Posts |
Posted - 31 Aug 2012 : 19:48:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Tyrant
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by Tyrant
I also really like the idea being floated here of a reborn Thay in new territory that embraces a larger view of magic. I could see the Thayans being reluctant to accept Warlocks and Sorcorers and down the road they may try to marginalize them. As a psionics fan, I would throw them in as well.
Hmmm, given the area I was discussing, having some psionics or "the school of mental magic" being a school within the "United Tharchs" would actually be kind of cool. I don't see warlocks in the new area that I was describing. However, in the same threads, we brought up the idea that some Zulkirs might try to reclaim the lost Thay (I was calling them the "Reborn Thay"), and that group I can definitely see possibly having a Zulkirship dedicated to warlocks... though it might be of interest who is the power behind said warlocks (i.e. demons, devils, dark gods, far realm beings, primordials, etc...)
I could see the warlocks being tied to the church of Kossuth with him as their broker (or whatever the word is for the being on the other end of the warlock pact). If that were the case, I would think they would mix in with the clergy as the more militant of the church. Alternatively, they could be like a branch of the school of Conjuration and focus on infernal pacts. In that scenario I don't think they would be treated as equals. More like a resource to be exploited by those with greater knowledge of planar creatures.
I LOVE this idea (Kossuth granting the power for these warlock pacts), especially given that Bezantur was once Kensten, which was burned by Kossuth. Yeah, for the "reborn Thay" idea of a group that usurps a small portion of the desolated area of Thay, warlocks of Kossuth would seem perfect for such desolation. The numbers of schools I see in this should not be all the schools of magic. I see evocation, conjuration, necromancy, and alteration as the Zulkirships composed of wizards. I then see warlocks and binders receiving a zulkirship each, and they be in close alliance with the conjuration school. Then maybe a zulkirship for Battlemages (warmages, eldritch knights, etc...). Then maybe a zulkirship for theurgist mages of specific state religions.
If we went with this idea, then this newly risen country would have one very big difference from the old Thay. They would be accepting of those who gain their power from outside sources and aren't totally dependent on themselves. This culture would be about power and offense. They may even see this somewhat as a check and balance system against the rise to power of an incredibly powerful mage like Szass Tam.
On the other end of the spectrum, I've also been talking about the idea of another group of Thayans that form a new nation that is a true magocracy again (which I tentatively named "the United Tharchions of the Shaar" or "United Tharchs" for short). While not absolutely evil, this new culture would be concerned with their own survival at the cost of others. Slavery would be accepted. This culture would be more on the defensive and spread out, however, just because they're defensive doesn't mean they don't take advantage of opportunities to expand. I could see this group allowing all schools of magic (except possibly they do outlaw necromancy as a specialty... not its use, but there are no Zulkirs of necromancy). They may also allow psionicists, as their power comes from themselves and not others. Their culture may also allow for Zulkirs of the 6 elemental schools (earth, air, fire, water, metal, wood), and maybe in this culture we see something arise similar to the benders of the Avatar series. This gives for alot more schools with zulkirs (it'd be 7 original schools, psionics, and 6 elemental schools). They may also have academies for "battlemages" (i.e. warrior - mages), theurgists (priest-mages), and "mage-spies" (i.e. rogue-mages). That makes for between 12-17 "Zulkirships" depending on what ultimately may be accepted. So, what makes this "United Tharchs" different from the old Thay other than schools of magic? Maybe this "United Tharchs" zulkirs work in a council that forms up the laws of the land (somewhat similar to congress). However, maybe the country has an elected leader drawn from the populace (who need not be a mage, but CAN be one) who serves as a counter to the power of the council of Zulkirs (think president). Now, for a judicial branch of the government, maybe each Tharchion serves as a judge within his given Tharch (and has appointed lesser judges who oversee things as he would want them). Thus, each Tharch may be very unique based on who is ruling it and which Zulkirships may make their base there. Each Zulkirship should also maintain at least one stronghold above the underchasm on an earthmote where they train students and perform dangerous experiments. This "United Tharchs" should be a den of political infighting, but when threatened the country suddenly becomes a powerful threat.
Anyway, those are just ideas, given freely to spark further ideas. The main thing I'd like to see in this thread is people putting for ideas to improve the end goal. We all know that they're not going to do a reset. We all know 100 years has passed into 4E. Now, how many years pass until 5E and the new campaign setting happens, we can't say. But, we can use this opportunity to clean up some issues and make a place that feels like the realms... but improved. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12194 Posts |
Posted - 31 Aug 2012 : 19:58:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I want cannons. We've had Smoke-powder long enough, and its time it got a little more attention. I think making the tech level of FR appropriate to the same earth-year would work fine now.
By keeping the 'magic' in Smoke-powder, DMs can adjust how much of this he/she wants in their campaign. However, i don't want it to just get ignored again. maybe a brief mention in the CG and then an article or two.
Think 'Jack Sparrow' - how important were guns to the movies? canons were used a lot, but they made a point of Jack only firing his gun once, at the very end of the movie. Guns don't have to have prominence, but cannons make for excellent pirate-style campaigns, and FR has several very cool 'pirate areas' that get neglected.
A train might be too high-tech for The Realms, but I don't think cannon would rock the boat (pun intended).
I like this idea. Yes, time has passed, dependence on magic entirely has waned. I especially like the idea of cannons mounted on earthmotes, cannons mounted on ships, cannons mounted on skyships, cannons mounted into golems, cannons carried by earth elementals, etc... This would be great for the "United Tharchs", and might be a specialty for the school of metal elementalism. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Likes/Dislikes of 4E Realms, Wish List for 5E
