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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
 Posted - 28 Aug 2012 : 02:04:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Richard Lee Byers
Reboots may make marketing sense for DC (the New 52 produced a big upturn in sales, although I don't know if that effect has lasted) ...
Considering the "Second Wave" and "Third Wave" release of new titles to cancelled replace titles that were initially released as part of the New 52 'soft reboot' in September 2011, I don't believe the upturn has lasted.
And now there's word of a "Fourth Wave" to replace other further titles that will now likely be cancelled as well. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 28 Aug 2012 : 02:41:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Venger
Yeah, I was actually commenting on Marvel's sliding timescale elsewhere. Basically they have a set amount of years in which all of a characters stories take place and the year they officially started their career continually changes in relation to the present date.
For example, let's say that for the X-Men, their time scale is 15 years. In an X-Men issue which is released in 2007, the events are assumed to have occured in 2007. But because the sliding timescale is 15 years that means then that the events of X-Men #1 occured in 1992, not 1963. But if you pick up a current issue of X-Men then the events in that issue are assumed to occur in 2012, and the start of X-Men history is pushed back to fit with that time scale, so X-Men #1 is now assumed to have taken place in 1997.
In other words, all that matters is the present date, not the start date. The start date is continually pushed back so that it'll keep up with the present. That's why you'll have occasional retcons of character history as you go. Iron Man, for instance, was now wounded in Afghanistan instead of in Vietnam, while Reed Richards and Ben Grimm are no longer WWII veterans.
This is a TAD off-topic for FR, but I felt I had to address it. Marvel does not actually have a sliding time-scale as suggested above; instead, it's time-scale is actually "compressed". In other words, for every year that goes by in the RW, a month might go by in the MU. This is why Spidey, at his current age of about 33, has been around so long. (And their origins are STILL from the same eras as before, just with more modern details thrown in. Punisher still mentions being in Vietnam, and Cap was still from WWII, for example.) It's just that the time between is shown to have moved more quickly than here. This is a bit imperfect, of course, as they occasionally use current events in the comics, which sort of muddle that concept (such as Spidey saving Obama from a random villain rampage in one issue shortly after his election) so it's not a concrete compression. But in general, ten years in the RW equsl about a year in Earth 616 time. (And then there are all those alternate dimentions and rifts and things that muddy the waters even more, so that months can pass on Earth 616 while heroes are away adventuring elsewhere in the MUY...)
I can see how using something similar for the FR might be feasible, or at least in might be used to bring some old NPC's back- like maybe there was a time-distortion wave or something during the Spellplague, and in the aftermath, some people got shunted into the 1400's era. |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
Edited by - Alystra Illianniis on 28 Aug 2012 02:43:14 |
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Venger
Learned Scribe
USA
269 Posts |
Posted - 28 Aug 2012 : 03:07:50
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quote:
Punisher still mentions being in Vietnam, and Cap was still from WWII, for example
The Punisher's only a Vietnam vet in the MAX titles, where he's over 60-years-old. In the regular Marvel continuity the Punisher's no longer a Vietnam vet (They used to have a comic called "The 'Nam", which he appeared in every once in a while, but they stopped having him appear in it as it was making his character too old). As for Captain America, it doesn't matter that he fought in WWII because he didn't live all that time. He was frozen in ice and, as time goes by, it's just assumed he was frozen in ice longer (I.E. He was thawed out in 2000 instead of 1965). The same holds true for Magneto, who's probably the only character still tied to WWII, but that's explained away by the fact that he was once de-aged to an infant before being restored to his prime.
But nah, the compressed time scale isn't correct. If it were then it'd be something like the 1980's in the Marvel Universe. As time goes on you'll see old references which date them be dropped altogether or changed. That's why, as I mentioned, Reed Richards and Ben Grimm are no longer written as WWII veterans, because according to the sliding time scale the events of Fantastic Four #1 happened sometime in the 1990's, and not in the 1960's. Likewise, Iron Man's origin was recently retold in the comics and all mentions of Vietnam were left out, and instead everything happened in Afghanistan. As far as Marvel continuity is concerned, most of their characters weren't even alive in the 1960's, even though that's when they first appeared. |
"Beware what you say when you speak of magic, wizard, or you shall see who has the greater power." |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 28 Aug 2012 : 03:30:24
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As I said, it's somewhat imperfect, but this has been established as true for many years . There was even a topic thread on the subject years ago on the Marvel boards. I should know- I used to be a Moderator there. The consensus was that while it works most of the time, for certain events there are exceptions. And for the record, those changes are writer ret-cons, NOT evidence of a sliding time scale. It's their way of keeping the characters current and relevant. Has VERY little to do with their actual origins, which never changed.
The "new" origins are mostly just shoe-horned into the story to introduce the characters to a new generation. And AFAIK, Punisher is pretty much ONLY found in the MAX titles ever since his book was deemed too mature for the general audience of Marvel readers- or it's not "kid-friendly" enough to be included in their flagship banner titles, other than the occasional (and watered-down version) cameo or team-up appearances in other books. Since they focus most books in New York, real-life events sometimes take place, such as the tribute issue done after 9-11, or Flash Thompson being wounded in Afghanistan. These incidents can't be negated- they are canon. As is the entire past history. But in a universe where time can be altered, or heroes can time-jump back and forth, or travel to alternate realities or other planets, there are going to be some instances of time getting "bent" and new histories being created. In fact, the Exiles have even dealt with this problem, IIRC. Agian, the time-compression effect is not constant, nor is it exact, ie- issues of FF where they travel to the Negative Zone and are only gone a few hours or days, only to come back months later in Earth time. That's one of the reasons it works- time flows differently than in RW, or even in different parts of the MU itself! And when you start adding in reality-bending characters like Wanda Maximoff or Proteus, it just makes things even stickier.
Anywho, I could certainly see the same sort of thing happening to Faerun with the Destruction of the Weave. Mystra was ostensibly the deity of time, after all. Which makes me think of Marvel's Eternity perhaps having some influence in that universe on the flow and warping of time. Hmm.... |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 28 Aug 2012 : 04:12:29
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| Well, I DID try to keep it sort of on-topic by using the idea to explain some possible NPC resurrections.... The idea has merit though, eh? Using time-fluxes as an effect of the Spell-plague? A less intrusive means of doing what was suggested with ripping whole parts of Faerune into the past, present, or future. Just an individual here or there, or perhaps a time-juxtaposition, where a place or object occupies several time-periods at once due to distortions of the time-stream after the Weave was destroyed- or maybe due to Ao smashing the Tablest? Just some thoughts. |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader
USA
2717 Posts |
Posted - 28 Aug 2012 : 04:30:27
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Welcome to the forums, Gustaveren!
quote:
Originally posted by Gustaveren
A description of realmspecific cities and realms located on other planes but with deep ties to the realms (portals, visions, past migrations, trade, strange herbs and arcane materials,....)
This is a cool idea.
Wasn't Myth Drannor said to be a planar nexus of sorts at one point? If yes,it would be cool to learn about which three or four other worlds had the most back and forth trade with Myth Drannor, and what they were like. |
Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver). |
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Mournblade
Master of Realmslore
USA
1288 Posts |
Posted - 28 Aug 2012 : 06:34:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
As I said, it's somewhat imperfect, but this has been established as true for many years . There was even a topic thread on the subject years ago on the Marvel boards. I should know- I used to be a Moderator there. The consensus was that while it works most of the time, for certain events there are exceptions. And for the record, those changes are writer ret-cons, NOT evidence of a sliding time scale. It's their way of keeping the characters current and relevant. Has VERY little to do with their actual origins, which never changed.
The "new" origins are mostly just shoe-horned into the story to introduce the characters to a new generation. And AFAIK, Punisher is pretty much ONLY found in the MAX titles ever since his book was deemed too mature for the general audience of Marvel readers- or it's not "kid-friendly" enough to be included in their flagship banner titles, other than the occasional (and watered-down version) cameo or team-up appearances in other books. Since they focus most books in New York, real-life events sometimes take place, such as the tribute issue done after 9-11, or Flash Thompson being wounded in Afghanistan. These incidents can't be negated- they are canon. As is the entire past history. But in a universe where time can be altered, or heroes can time-jump back and forth, or travel to alternate realities or other planets, there are going to be some instances of time getting "bent" and new histories being created. In fact, the Exiles have even dealt with this problem, IIRC. Agian, the time-compression effect is not constant, nor is it exact, ie- issues of FF where they travel to the Negative Zone and are only gone a few hours or days, only to come back months later in Earth time. That's one of the reasons it works- time flows differently than in RW, or even in different parts of the MU itself! And when you start adding in reality-bending characters like Wanda Maximoff or Proteus, it just makes things even stickier.
Anywho, I could certainly see the same sort of thing happening to Faerun with the Destruction of the Weave. Mystra was ostensibly the deity of time, after all. Which makes me think of Marvel's Eternity perhaps having some influence in that universe on the flow and warping of time. Hmm....
Sorry Sage:
Actually the sliding time scale of 13 years is written as Marvel Canon in the appendix of The Official Handbook to the Marvel Universe #1 pub 2008. So whatever has been established on Forums is trumped by that.
Plus Brian Michael Bendis and Joe Quesada brought it up at the NYCC panel last October.
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A wizard is Never late Frodo Baggins. Nor is he Early. A wizard arrives precisely when he means to... |
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Gustaveren
Learned Scribe
Denmark
197 Posts |
Posted - 28 Aug 2012 : 11:45:38
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I better com with some more arguements for the kind of source books I want
1) Lots of historial info since it makes it easy to run campaigns with lore plots. It also have the advantage of giving those old FR fans a reason for buying the book even if they do not want to play in the 5e world, but the following arguments is based upon what I would use the info for in a 5e campaign
a) Info on old coins, coat of arms and the royal ancestry tree are important since it can be used to tell the players the age of the ruins, makes it easy to create political adventures like "someone want to be king instead of the king", makes it possible to introduce magical objects having an interesting history and so forth
b) Historical timeline for the area. I usually use that to create a reason for the existence of interesting ruins and mysteries in the area and old feuds / conflicts, a+b also makes it possible to create history related puzzles there can be used as locks on dungeon doors
2) Description of the cities (council members, sages, priests, shops, culture institutions and so forth)
a) That kind of information is important in order to make it easy to run political / intrigue based campaigns
3) Description of the economy of the area. What kind of goods are produced, specific types of local food (wine, cheese, ), local herbs with medical properties and so forth
I like to be able to make a visit to the market place or an inn feel specific and different from visiting a marketplace or inn in another part of the campaign world
Basically, In order for me to feel really interested, would there have to be something like at least 6 FR source book releases per year for the first 5 years
Personally did i find it a big loss with the disappearance of Halrua, mulhorand, unther, Maztica
a) I used Halrua as a legendary library it was difficult to get access to and when i was a player as a place my characters (preferred playing wizards or wizards-priest) had a deep wish for visiting.
b) Halrua was a good source for mystic visions
c) Mulhorand and Maztica was important to me even though i would rarely have any kind of adventures there, but they were a great source for introducing mysteries in other parts of the realms like "herbs with strange properties originating from Maztica, ancient curses from Mulhorand, really interesting ruins accessible via portals and so forth"
d) I like the presence of exotic cultures and the kind of situations it create in the area were cultures meet. Well, it is logical i feel like that, since I am European but have a chinese wife. I always found it sad that more had not been done to properly describe kara-tur. I am after all very fond of chinese culture. |
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Gustaveren
Learned Scribe
Denmark
197 Posts |
Posted - 28 Aug 2012 : 14:56:45
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I think that part of the problem is that as I am growing older (I am 35) do I increasingly value
a) Stories with complexity, gradual buildup of events, villains and heroes with personality development there reflect my increasing maturity / understanding of why persons react as they do
b) Stories there reflect my increasing understanding of the world, that is, as I am growing older is political and commercial events growing more important and dungeon crawls without very good reasons are becoming less interesting.
c) Stories were I benefit from my large collecting of existing lore
d) A world with a positive mood. This is after all relaxation from what you experience in real life with the work you have to do to prosper in the time during and after the financial crisis and it's impact on the labour market.
e) Nostalgia for the campaign world I roleplayed in as a child. That is, I want to play in a campaign world there has the presence of halruaa, evermeet, mulhorand, unther, maztica, Thay....
Fair enough that there has been developments like a king dieing on the battlefield or from old age, a war breaking out, but major realm shaking events as the spell plague is a no no since it destroyed so much that the world no longer have the nostalgia feeling.
Most likely will i in the future stick to campaigns beginning in 1374 DR and make a house rule: Spellplague is never going to happen.
This is not a hard rule, but it will take a lot to convince me, that a 5e campaign can compete and it would require such a massive wizard commitment to issue source books with campaign material that it seems unlikely.
I think we can all agree, that Wizards of the Coast decided to move in the opposite direction in 4e on points a to e in an attempt to make FR attractive for teenagers with no previous FR experience, but one of the consequences was that 4e killed the campaign world for old fans like me. I know that Wizards of the coast are a business and they have to make those business decisions they believe will earn them money, but I am quite sure, that you need to convince many teenagers to play the game to compensate for the loss of customers like me there brought all the source books and novels from 1e and forward in time since many teenagers will only buy a few products. They do not have the same economy as old fans and they have more competing hobby options. |
Edited by - Gustaveren on 28 Aug 2012 15:03:32 |
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The Hidden Lord
Learned Scribe
148 Posts |
Posted - 28 Aug 2012 : 15:57:07
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Gustaveren,
In what FR year did your longest running campaign begin and end, and what were the corresponding real-world start and end points?
quote:
Originally posted by Gustaveren
I think that part of the problem is that as I am growing older (I am 35) do I increasingly value
a) Stories with complexity, gradual buildup of events, villains and heroes with personality development there reflect my increasing maturity / understanding of why persons react as they do
b) Stories there reflect my increasing understanding of the world, that is, as I am growing older is political and commercial events growing more important and dungeon crawls without very good reasons are becoming less interesting.
c) Stories were I benefit from my large collecting of existing lore
d) A world with a positive mood. This is after all relaxation from what you experience in real life with the work you have to do to prosper in the time during and after the financial crisis and it's impact on the labour market.
e) Nostalgia for the campaign world I roleplayed in as a child. That is, I want to play in a campaign world there has the presence of halruaa, evermeet, mulhorand, unther, maztica, Thay....
Fair enough that there has been developments like a king dieing on the battlefield or from old age, a war breaking out, but major realm shaking events as the spell plague is a no no since it destroyed so much that the world no longer have the nostalgia feeling.
Most likely will i in the future stick to campaigns beginning in 1374 DR and make a house rule: Spellplague is never going to happen.
This is not a hard rule, but it will take a lot to convince me, that a 5e campaign can compete and it would require such a massive wizard commitment to issue source books with campaign material that it seems unlikely.
I think we can all agree, that Wizards of the Coast decided to move in the opposite direction in 4e on points a to e in an attempt to make FR attractive for teenagers with no previous FR experience, but one of the consequences was that 4e killed the campaign world for old fans like me. I know that Wizards of the coast are a business and they have to make those business decisions they believe will earn them money, but I am quite sure, that you need to convince many teenagers to play the game to compensate for the loss of customers like me there brought all the source books and novels from 1e and forward in time since many teenagers will only buy a few products. They do not have the same economy as old fans and they have more competing hobby options.
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Gustaveren
Learned Scribe
Denmark
197 Posts |
Posted - 28 Aug 2012 : 16:07:34
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The longest FR campaign was about 8 years ago and centered around Cormyr and Westgate in the timeframe of 1372 as far as I remember.
I GM-ed that campaign for several years were we were playing 1 evening every second week. Can not remember exact ending year, but I remember we finished it at level 13 or 14. |
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The Hidden Lord
Learned Scribe
148 Posts |
Posted - 28 Aug 2012 : 16:14:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Gustaveren
The longest FR campaign was about 8 years ago and centered around Cormyr and Westgate in the timeframe of 1372 as far as I remember.
I GM-ed that campaign for several years were we were playing 1 evening every second week. Can not remember exact ending year, but I remember we finished it at level 13 or 14.
Did this game last until 1373, 1374? |
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Gustaveren
Learned Scribe
Denmark
197 Posts |
Posted - 28 Aug 2012 : 16:22:11
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Do not think so, It was a very intrigue filled campaign with multiple ongoing plots of high lore and complexity. The campaign world progressed something like 4 or 8 months as far as I remember
It was very interesting. Some session-event occurs (example: the players find a body of a dead agent), the players then try to figure out, which of the story plots do the clues belong to and of course, what is the story plots. |
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The Hidden Lord
Learned Scribe
148 Posts |
Posted - 28 Aug 2012 : 16:32:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Gustaveren
Do not think so, It was a very intrigue filled campaign with multiple ongoing plots of high lore and complexity. The campaign world progressed something like 4 or 8 months as far as I remember
It was very interesting. Some session-event occurs (example: the players find a body of a dead agent), the players then try to figure out, which of the story plots do the clues belong to and of course, what is the story plots.
Did you ever play any of the Horde campaign, 1358 DR? |
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Gustaveren
Learned Scribe
Denmark
197 Posts |
Posted - 28 Aug 2012 : 17:01:23
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I could not get my players interested in the horde area even though I did run a campaign in the Unapproachable east at some point in 1373 DR
The campaigns I had prior to the times of troubles was usually in the Dalelands, Cormyr, the North, the west coast and the moonshae islands.
I kind of allowed the timeline to progress when starting new campaigns, but the spellplague event was to extreme to continue to do that.
It is likely that I will make future campaigns in different historical ages and then accept that the players actions will change the timeline of the realms.
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Gustaveren
Learned Scribe
Denmark
197 Posts |
Posted - 28 Aug 2012 : 17:17:51
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| I actually did use part of the old horde campaign / crusade material in my unapproachable east campaign since lore about some of those battles did have an impact in that campaign. Some of those people the group encountered were grizzly old veterans of that campaign and there were some haunted battlefields there had their origin in that conflict. |
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The Hidden Lord
Learned Scribe
148 Posts |
Posted - 28 Aug 2012 : 18:00:06
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I'm thinking about returning to the Horde Crusade. We played it when it was new, back in the day, but I'm going to run a game in 1358 detailing another groups activities, then have the antagonist return, in 1483, his long term lich plan finally arising for a new set of characters to thwart.
I can't wait wait until my players see how their lore from their 1380's characters weave into the past and future.
I can hear them now, "What, the sword of Kalamacus has been reforged, and and Darkoth was Aerilees murder? And the battle of the Crusade was the backdrop for the begining of this plot!!!" |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 28 Aug 2012 : 18:25:26
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@Sage: While I fully understand your position as a mod, I respectively disagree that DC/Marvel/Star Trek talk isn't pertinent to this particular subject. I wouldn't want this to turn into a comic thread, but I think when we are specifically speaking about what was done when others IPs got rebooted, it has a lot to do with what is happening with FR this time out (and the subject at hand).
By weighing what was wrong with what other companies did, we may get a better finished product ourselves.
That being said, I have nothing against Tyr. I just think he was a bit redundant, and having a female take his place would be a step in the right direction (for many, many reasons). Besides, the red Knight really needs a better name (although Tyress does sound a bit too much like Sharess... maybe Tyrana? hmmm... that sounds like a female tyrant god...)
Tyreena? That has a bit of an 'Athena' thing going on, which suits her. She could also absorb Siamorph's portfolios as well (I don't think 'Divine Right' and 'justice' are such differing concepts - both are in favor of 'law' over morality).
Anyhow, this brings me to a new point: How important is the canon? Should we start sloughing-off the bad stuff? I think all the designers/authors are against that, but they have an invested interest (which makes them biased). I'd love to see certain things get re-written, but I do agree with the major point of "who decides what stays and what goes?" Obviously having a few people making those decisions didn't work out so well the last time.
For instance, how bad would it be if we removed at least some of the Earth-connections? Would it be so terrible if the Mulan came from Abeir instead? If they have no desire to make FR part of a larger multiverse in 5e (as it was in 2e), then there really is no point in keeping any of that old lore. Just blame everything on Abeir. Egypt-clones don't usually get the same bad press it did in FR, but thats because ours wasn't just a derivation, they really were ancient Egyptians. If they were just like Egyptians, but NOT Egyptians, wouldn't that help curb some of the worst FR anti-sentiments?
Or are we just not going to bother to fix any of the original (pre-3e) problems with the setting, even though we have a chance to?
I used to make homemade rice pudding every year to bring to family dinners around the holidays. I had a great recipe, which included raisins. For years most people asked me to leave the raisins out, but I refused, saying "its in the recipe". It was so good, however, that they just picked the raisins out (or ate it as-is anyway). One year I forgot to pick-up raisins, and had to make it without them. Everyone was thrilled. Afterward I had to ask myself why the hell was I so damn insistent about leaving the raisins in the recipe - it made no sense. I haven't made it with raisins since.
Do we really want to keep the raisins in, just because "they are in the recipe"? I'd hate to miss a golden opportunity like this. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 28 Aug 2012 22:31:52 |
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Gustaveren
Learned Scribe
Denmark
197 Posts |
Posted - 28 Aug 2012 : 18:29:34
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Old lore campaigns are usually the best, it create a feeling of nostalgia for old campaings.
I do not think it is a coincidence, that nostalgia computer games are selling very well these years.
I believe that 4e FR has major problems since it is the opposite of nostalgia. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 28 Aug 2012 : 18:40:29
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The Endless Wastes (Taan) have tons of potential - the old material has plot-hooks in every entry.
People tend to forget how different different parts of that area are - everyone focuses on the Tuigan. Despite their might and pervasiveness in the region, there is a LOT of other things going on, and at least a dozen other nations/political entities. Even amongst themselves, the Tuigan (Taangan) tribes differ mightily. The Tuigan are really just one sub-ethnic group amongst them.
While I'd love a new Horde Campaign book, I know that it is not popular enough to be worth doing a print book (for WotC). Ergo, that is the perfect example of a region that should be broken-up into $2.99 articles (Murghôm, Semphar, The Raurin, Fallen Guge, The Wastes, etc, etc). I think they could milk that region for a good $30-75 in that manner (and no-one will balk at the $3 price tags).
Its also a pretty damn good region for non-era-specific lore. Except for a few major developments - mostly in the distant past - the Taan has remained static until the The Horde campaign. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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The Hidden Lord
Learned Scribe
148 Posts |
Posted - 28 Aug 2012 : 18:50:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Gustaveren
Old lore campaigns are usually the best, it create a feeling of nostalgia for old campaings.
I do not think it is a coincidence, that nostalgia computer games are selling very well these years.
I believe that 4e FR has major problems since it is the opposite of nostalgia.
My group has a lot of nostalgic fun in the 4e FR. When Deagan Huntspear, my 6th level Cormyrean swordmage looks out over fair Suzail, not only does he know about many of the amazing adventures that have happened in the history of the Realms... but I do too! |
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Gustaveren
Learned Scribe
Denmark
197 Posts |
Posted - 28 Aug 2012 : 19:16:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
While I'd love a new Horde Campaign book, I know that it is not popular enough to be worth doing a print book (for WotC).
It is one of the reasons why I prefer staying in the pre spellplague time area. It is unlikely that WOTC can or will make enough source books for 5e FR to compete with the sourcebook coverage from pre spellplague years |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 28 Aug 2012 : 19:19:29
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I really don't want to get in the middle of an argument here, but I wanted to point out a little bit about Akanul/Tymanther:
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Originally posted by doctorbadwolf
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
@DoctorBadWolf: I think that's an over-simplification. And you did read my comments about "vestiges" left in place, right? In large part the lands of Tymanther and Akanul are headed back for Abeir, true, but that says nothing of the people. There is a whole huge margin of story right there.
These things are only *gone* if you don't want to focus on them. It's mostly a matter of rebuilding what vanished (Mulhorand, Maztica, Unther, etc).
I get what you're saying there, but IMO it's still pretty much all bad. If the nations of Tymanther and Anakul are gone, leaving only nationless remnants behind them, and Returned Abeir disapears without a trace (again, leaving only wandering nationless people behind), then those ELEMENTS are gone. It's not a matter of focusing on them or not, they're gone.
"3) Dragonborn origins: There are at least 4 distinct "humanoid dragon" races in the Realms. I think at least some of them share a common ancestor (Tymanther dragonborn and Saurials, for instance, may have derived from the same stock many thousands of years ago). And it must be remembered that "dragonborn" is not necessarily a scientific name or even a widely used term in the Realms. It's more a sagely term like "eladrin.""
this really worries me, as well. It positively reaks of either a)"Dragonborn are totally still around. They're saurials." or 2)it's ok that we're all but deleted Dragonborn unless you want to blip over to an entirely different world via portal, because there are other scalies in the realms you can play as/interact with.
Terrible, in other words.
Well, rest assured that, AFAIK, none of your doubts or unhappy scenarios are what's going on.
quote:
And sure, I can keep those in my games (which I intend to) but will we see novels set there? Will we see lore about it? Will there be more adventurs there abouts? I'm pretty sure the answer to those questions is "No".
The product line hasn't been determined as yet, but I will say that you shouldn't be so sure. 
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 28 Aug 2012 : 19:24:13
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Hopefully we won't be stuck with this 'new editon every couple of years' paradigm forever.
The way it is now, they never give an edition enough time to fill-in all those great areas we haven't seen covered since 1e/2e. I'd rather see one version of the rules, with slight, incremental changes over 10-15 years (like 1e/AD&D) that will give us tons and tons of lore (and not just FR lore), then the same places 'rinse & repeated' every 5 years or so.
I am so sick of Menzoberanzan, you couldn't give me a new Menzo book for free. Serously, I hate the damn place. Maybe we should just rename FR 'The Land of Drizzt' and ignore everything that isn't Drow-related (because, dammit, thats precisely what it feels like). 'Drizzt World' - its like an angsty amusement park.
And now I'm slipping into rant-mode again... |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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oneiroi gate
Acolyte
United Kingdom
4 Posts |
Posted - 28 Aug 2012 : 19:26:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
That being said, I have nothing against Tyr. I just think he was a bit redundant, and having a female take his place would be a step in the right direction (for many, many reasons). Besides, the red Knight really needs a better name (although Tyress does sound a bit too much like Sharess... maybe Tyrana? hmmm... that sounds like a female tyrant god...)
I liked Tyr. Especially in the Pools of Radiance when his priests mention about selecting a chosen weapon. However, you are right in that Helm and Torm (and possibly others) are just too similar. A female deity of good warriors/goodness would be good though!
Evil gods, have far more room. Myrkul as the god of undeath, Moander could take decay for example.
One thing I'd like for certain is something from Michael Moorcock. In the Corum series the gods cannot harm each other directly and nor can they directly harm mortals, instead they need mortals to harm and hinder opposing gods and mortals. I hope that Ao writes this on his tablets...? |
" [...] The more the power is exercised the higher and stronger becomes the character; till the height of heroism is reached in men who renounce the pleasures of life and even life itself for the sake of winning for others, perhaps in distant ages, the blessings of freedom and truth.” James George Frazer, The Golden Bough |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 28 Aug 2012 : 19:37:38
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I think thats kind of the gist of whats going on.
Thats why I said above "if a mortal kills a deity, all bets are off". Ao is the 'god of gods', not mortals. The greatest secret may be that he has absolutely no power over mortals at all (except to grant them divine status, which may just be his way of 'reeling them in').
However, he can effect mortals indirectly, since he is the god of their gods. Also, if they are granted Chosen (Saintly) status, they are imparted with a bit of divinity, so they fall under his purview as well (which becomes a double-edge sword for everyone involved).
Just my own take on how all of that works - I spend way too much time tweaking D&D's over-cosmology. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Gustaveren
Learned Scribe
Denmark
197 Posts |
Posted - 28 Aug 2012 : 20:05:50
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Regarding Akanul, Tyrmantor, Mulhorand and Unther and the overlapping land problem
Several solutions exist:
1) Portals to another plane and a source book on the fate of those realms in another plane
2) The return of lost realms on flying earthmotes.
3) Displacement of Akanul and Tyrmantor. Well, people have been begging for description of other parts of toril |
Edited by - Gustaveren on 28 Aug 2012 20:07:29 |
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Gustaveren
Learned Scribe
Denmark
197 Posts |
Posted - 28 Aug 2012 : 20:13:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Hopefully we won't be stuck with this 'new editon every couple of years' paradigm forever.
The way it is now, they never give an edition enough time to fill-in all those great areas we haven't seen covered since 1e/2e. I'd rather see one version of the rules, with slight, incremental changes over 10-15 years (like 1e/AD&D) that will give us tons and tons of lore (and not just FR lore), then the same places 'rinse & repeated' every 5 years or so.
I am so sick of Menzoberanzan, you couldn't give me a new Menzo book for free. Serously, I hate the damn place. Maybe we should just rename FR 'The Land of Drizzt' and ignore everything that isn't Drow-related (because, dammit, thats precisely what it feels like). 'Drizzt World' - its like an angsty amusement park.
And now I'm slipping into rant-mode again...
I prefer rule neutral source material. I am tired of new source book versions every time that a new rule version is issued. You also have to consider, there most likely will be many pathfinder fans, there would like to run pathfinder campaigns in FR. They will not pay a large amount of money for 5e D&D rule stuff in the FR books. They will only buy FR lore.
Many old FR fans still playing older versions of D&D will also prefer books only containing lore. They have to many times experienced new TSR and WOTC rule editions. In those cases is it only the lore you can use from your older books. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 28 Aug 2012 : 20:27:15
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I think 'one rules, multiple options', and divorcing the game from the settings, is the best (most lucrataive) move they can make moving forward.
I saw a lot of the anti-D&D/FR sentiment at Gencon, sadly, and I think that breaking it into bite-sized chunks it will 'go down easier' (be more readily excepted by those who have turned their backs on D&D/FR after the edition wars).
You don't like 5e? Fine... just use the Forgotten Realms with your rules-of-choice. You like the rules but hate the Realms? Fine, use the rules to play in Golarion. I think 'options over propriety' is the way things work now, and is the best business model these days. People don't have to play in a setting to borrow from it for their own games, no matter where they are set. We need to remove the notion you must be 'heavily vested' in order to enjoy FR material. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 28 Aug 2012 20:27:45 |
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Likes/Dislikes of 4E Realms, Wish List for 5E
