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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
 Posted - 27 Aug 2012 : 17:33:56
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@Ryan - If I understand you correctly, you are talking about an 'open' style of lore prsentation, in which someone who lived in the past (say, 1350 DR) could possibly 'reappear' in 1490 DR, as the same exact person?
While the DM in me is seeing the benefits of making 'anyone can exist any-when' in splat-book presentation (and their "support for all eras" goal), the FR fanboi in me cringes at the total non-continuity that would create if that were the stance for the official (novel) world. What little of that we have seen sneaking in (Entreri and Mirt, etc) is already giving me indigestion, and I think giving the authors the ability to use any NPC in any timeframe would be really, REALLY bad.
The easiest solution is to say you can do that for your game (I still find it funny that folks feel they need permission to do that), but thats not the case for the official setting. Only problem is, people have a problem with ignoring canon (at least, in FR they do).
I've toyed with a deux ex machina - that some folks post-plague are now gifted with immortality (like the folks in the Highlander series). Its not an original concept - in fact I can think of several systems/settings that use that premise. Non-humans (and humans with templates) are already candidates for that, but if we create a group of 'life-cursed' (think Elminster) it could be a possible solution. Only problem is, I truly hate that idea. I think it would turn the Realms into a totally different setting ("There can be only one!") We have enough lore from several editions that is already hard-enough to blend together, and throwing in such an obvious game mechanic would just be adding more nonsense we don't need or want.
It could work for a few, select individuals (they do this in comics and literature a lot) - people 'tainted' by the Spellplague (or whatever) and granted eternal life (kinda what happened to Storm), but I think it can be overly used. However, that doesn't mean that someone with more imagination (and writing skills) then me can somehow take that and turn it into a gem. In fact, if done right, they should be able to back-port the concept (Halaster, for example, could be one such individual). This solution might be preferrable to every author saving his/her favorite characters in a completely different manner (demi-shades, anyone?) |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 27 Aug 2012 17:36:41 |
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Mournblade
Master of Realmslore
USA
1288 Posts |
Posted - 27 Aug 2012 : 17:51:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
@Ryan - If I understand you correctly, you are talking about an 'open' style of lore prsentation, in which someone who lived in the past (say, 1350 DR) could possibly 'reappear' in 1490 DR, as the same exact person?
While the DM in me is seeing the benefits of making 'anyone can exist any-when' in splat-book presentation (and their "support for all eras" goal), the FR fanboi in me cringes at the total non-continuity that would create if that were the stance for the official (novel) world. What little of that we have seen sneaking in (Entreri and Mirt, etc) is already giving me indigestion, and I think giving the authors the ability to use any NPC in any timeframe would be really, REALLY bad.
The easiest solution is to say you can do that for your game (I still find it funny that folks feel they need permission to do that), but thats not the case for the official setting. Only problem is, people have a problem with ignoring canon (at least, in FR they do).
I've toyed with a deux ex machina - that some folks post-plague are now gifted with immortality (like the folks in the Highlander series). Its not an original concept - in fact I can think of several systems/settings that use that premise. Non-humans (and humans with templates) are already candidates for that, but if we create a group of 'life-cursed' (think Elminster) it could be a possible solution. Only problem is, I truly hate that idea. I think it would turn the Realms into a totally different setting ("There can be only one!") We have enough lore from several editions that is already hard-enough to blend together, and throwing in such an obvious game mechanic would just be adding more nonsense we don't need or want.
It could work for a few, select individuals (they do this in comics and literature a lot) - people 'tainted' by the Spellplague (or whatever) and granted eternal life (kinda what happened to Storm), but I think it can be overly used. However, that doesn't mean that someone with more imagination (and writing skills) then me can somehow take that and turn it into a gem. In fact, if done right, they should be able to back-port the concept (Halaster, for example, could be one such individual). This solution might be preferrable to every author saving his/her favorite characters in a completely different manner (demi-shades, anyone?)
Well you can make them all become part of the 'sliding timescale' like Marvel. They reach a point and they age 13 years and go back. SO that all events in the marvel universe are occuring within a 13 year timeframe from FF#1. It is clumsy. It was better to probably never address the issue.
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A wizard is Never late Frodo Baggins. Nor is he Early. A wizard arrives precisely when he means to... |
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Ryan
Acolyte
USA
7 Posts |
Posted - 27 Aug 2012 : 18:32:45
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quote:
@Ryan - If I understand you correctly, you are talking about an 'open' style of lore prsentation, in which someone who lived in the past (say, 1350 DR) could possibly 'reappear' in 1490 DR, as the same exact person?
No, sorry. What I mean is, spots/lands/gods/people in time, literally, get shifted to the present while other parts can get lost in time somewhere else(futre, past, wahtever).
However this would not break all that happened in the current time line. Taking time in a "threads" point of view. When you do something that effects time, you dont change what happened, you just change your current timeline(with a alraedy established multiverse, imo, this is the only way to deal with time). That way everytthing that happened before actually happened, the people getting ripped from a time "thread" dont effect the past timelines.
So the people who get sent to the new timeline are "stuck" here. My point about the shattered portals in time, was more as an option to see other time periods(since these portals would never lead to the same time period, so using it as a means to go to any time period you want, would be pointless). So your timeline would be your own, and you can only effect the your timeline, and when you bring people from other timelines, you are not preventing what happened to happen, since you are just creating a new "thread" in time, essetnially you change the present without actually changing the past, since each thread is its own.
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Ryan
Acolyte
USA
7 Posts |
Posted - 27 Aug 2012 : 18:36:33
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quote:
they discussed this option as well as a reboot like Star Trek
I'm not talking about a reboot like star trek. I'm talking about things from the past being ripped into the present timeline. There is no "do over" for the present or the past, only things from the past that were part in shaping the present, actaully get ripped into the present(or those in the present get ripped into the past/future, stuck in that specific timeline). So you wouldnt be invalidating anything that happened from 1st Edition all the way to 4th. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 27 Aug 2012 : 18:47:12
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So basically, the Marvel universe is stuck in a Groundhog Day like time loop? ***Blech***
While it is an explanation, I would have to agree it may have been better just getting ignored.
My idea is more along the lines of the energy of life-lengthening magics 'run amok'. There are several ways to alter ones lifespan in FR, and we know magic has 'gone wild' at least a few times we know of (and probably dozens of other times we never heard about). So while some folks may have been turned into toads, and others had their minds turned to jello, still others may have been found themselves 'cursed with life' (a line from the incredibly excellent movie The Green Mile).
You could theoretically use all the crappy deux ex machina type 'origin stories' they use in comics to bring your PC and desired NPCs into whatever era you want (I am figuring 95%+ of all FR games will take place from 1300-1500 DR). Your a young boy working in an alchemists shop - spellplague hits and the resulting 'rumble' dumps a shelf of elixir all over you. Instead if being able to run really fast, you now live forever. Some 'ebil mages' capture you and are performing experiments on you and others, but the spellplague hits and you are accidentally turned immortal (and maybe grow some adamantine claws).
If they present this as something that did occur randomly (and rarely) all over the world, then we could (in our games) use whatever we wanted without breaking canon. Its not great, but it works. Like most immortal creatures, it still means you can die violently. And like I said, they could say it has happened in the past as well (which could be why there are a few living Surrukh left, etc). The more I think on it, the less terrible the idea seems, but as I said, I would just introduce it into the sourcebooks, not the novels. It can get way overused fast, and then we'd be stuck with false perceptions again.
Hmph. Something just occurred to me - Resurrection in D&D. Where does that power come from? The gods (divine energy). In fact, it may be the purest form of divine energy mortals are granted. And what happened at the end of 3e? (and throughout the 'era of change', 1e/2e as well) - GODS DIED. Seems to me a whole bunch of raw, divine energy spilled out all over the world. Like I said, with some tinkering this idea may have some traction.
I think I'd prefer one giant deux ex machina excuse to dozens of little ones. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 27 Aug 2012 18:50:16 |
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Mournblade
Master of Realmslore
USA
1288 Posts |
Posted - 27 Aug 2012 : 19:16:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
So basically, the Marvel universe is stuck in a Groundhog Day like time loop? ***Blech***
While it is an explanation, I would have to agree it may have been better just getting ignored.
My idea is more along the lines of the energy of life-lengthening magics 'run amok'. There are several ways to alter ones lifespan in FR, and we know magic has 'gone wild' at least a few times we know of (and probably dozens of other times we never heard about). So while some folks may have been turned into toads, and others had their minds turned to jello, still others may have been found themselves 'cursed with life' (a line from the incredibly excellent movie The Green Mile).
You could theoretically use all the crappy deux ex machina type 'origin stories' they use in comics to bring your PC and desired NPCs into whatever era you want (I am figuring 95%+ of all FR games will take place from 1300-1500 DR). Your a young boy working in an alchemists shop - spellplague hits and the resulting 'rumble' dumps a shelf of elixir all over you. Instead if being able to run really fast, you now live forever. Some 'ebil mages' capture you and are performing experiments on you and others, but the spellplague hits and you are accidentally turned immortal (and maybe grow some adamantine claws).
If they present this as something that did occur randomly (and rarely) all over the world, then we could (in our games) use whatever we wanted without breaking canon. Its not great, but it works. Like most immortal creatures, it still means you can die violently. And like I said, they could say it has happened in the past as well (which could be why there are a few living Surrukh left, etc). The more I think on it, the less terrible the idea seems, but as I said, I would just introduce it into the sourcebooks, not the novels. It can get way overused fast, and then we'd be stuck with false perceptions again.
Hmph. Something just occurred to me - Resurrection in D&D. Where does that power come from? The gods (divine energy). In fact, it may be the purest form of divine energy mortals are granted. And what happened at the end of 3e? (and throughout the 'era of change', 1e/2e as well) - GODS DIED. Seems to me a whole bunch of raw, divine energy spilled out all over the world. Like I said, with some tinkering this idea may have some traction.
I think I'd prefer one giant deux ex machina excuse to dozens of little ones.
Yeah it is kind of like the ridge head Klingon to the old star trek Klingon. I think WORF explained it best: "WE DON'T LIKE TO TALK ABOUT IT!"
For me I would accept, Klingons always had ridge heads the makeup was just too expensive for 1966. |
A wizard is Never late Frodo Baggins. Nor is he Early. A wizard arrives precisely when he means to... |
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Venger
Learned Scribe
USA
269 Posts |
Posted - 27 Aug 2012 : 19:22:33
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| I'm too lazy to read the last few posts and only skimmed. Are we talking about bringing back old NPC's? If so, why not say that A) they were accidentally transported to Abeir, and B) that time flows differently there, and 100 years in Faerun passed but only 1 year passed in Abeir. So when the Sundering occurs and all those bits of Abeir get yanked back off of Faerun and all the bits of Faerun come back from Abeir those people will come, too. So as far as they're concerned they were only away a year. This could've affected not only important NPC's but large swathes of civilian populations as well. Maybe thousands of Zhentil Keep and Thayvan citizens got sucked into Abeir as well, which is why Zhentil Keep was so easily defeated by Netheril and Szass Tam was able to get away with his plans. Now that they're back they'll be able to rebuild Zhentil Keep and Thay to what they were. Just a thought, anyway. |
"Beware what you say when you speak of magic, wizard, or you shall see who has the greater power." |
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doctorbadwolf
Acolyte
USA
31 Posts |
Posted - 27 Aug 2012 : 19:47:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
@DoctorBadWolf: I think that's an over-simplification. And you did read my comments about "vestiges" left in place, right? In large part the lands of Tymanther and Akanul are headed back for Abeir, true, but that says nothing of the people. There is a whole huge margin of story right there.
These things are only *gone* if you don't want to focus on them. It's mostly a matter of rebuilding what vanished (Mulhorand, Maztica, Unther, etc).
Cheers
I get what you're saying there, but IMO it's still pretty much all bad. If the nations of Tymanther and Anakul are gone, leaving only nationless remnants behind them, and Returned Abeir disapears without a trace (again, leaving only wandering nationless people behind), then those ELEMENTS are gone. It's not a matter of focusing on them or not, they're gone.
"3) Dragonborn origins: There are at least 4 distinct "humanoid dragon" races in the Realms. I think at least some of them share a common ancestor (Tymanther dragonborn and Saurials, for instance, may have derived from the same stock many thousands of years ago). And it must be remembered that "dragonborn" is not necessarily a scientific name or even a widely used term in the Realms. It's more a sagely term like "eladrin.""
this really worries me, as well. It positively reaks of either a)"Dragonborn are totally still around. They're saurials." or 2)it's ok that we're all but deleted Dragonborn unless you want to blip over to an entirely different world via portal, because there are other scalies in the realms you can play as/interact with.
Terrible, in other words.
quote:
Originally posted by Venger
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You guys gonna axe Netheril and make Myth Drannor a ruin again, while you're at it?
At what point have you just shoved all forward movement in the setting out a window?
There's nothing about Tymanther that's a result of "forward movement." Both Netheril and Myth Drannor exist as they do today because of seeds planted in Faerun's history. They developed naturally from pre-existing story elements.
Tymanther, on the other hand, quite literally fell out of the sky and crushed Unther. There is NOTHING about it which represents forward movement, as it didn't evolve out of any pre-existing story elements. One minute it's not there, the next minute it is. If anything, it crushed forward movement, as there were some burgeoning storylines that were being pushed forward with the Unter/Mulhorand plotline, and all of a sudden those plot threads came screeching to a dead halt and vanished when the 4E developers chucked Tymanther at the Faerunian map.
Frankly, good riddance to Tymanther and all those other silly Abeir elements. The day when I'll see the back of them can't come soon enough.
And we've established thoroughly now the inevitible disenfranchisement of more FR fans with this new direction. Because either my view or yours will win. They may try to mask the winner by giving some consolation prize (like portals that lead to Abeir), but it will still be clear that the losing side "isn't playing FR correctly".
Oh well. This whole thing could have been cool.
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
Honestly, my biggest dislike of the post Spellplague Forgotten Realms (or 1479 DR) was the little detail we got overall. At first, when it was released, I thought the less detail would all me further freedom in doing whatever I wanted in the Realms. But, now I can see that was a mistake, because I always had that ability in the first place. I guess it just took me something like that to fully illustrate it.
One of the things that I am hearing that I don't like is that the parts of Abeir are going away and we're getting back Mexico and Egypt. Let me just say, what a waste! Tymanther actually had promise. Akanûl was interesting. Returned Abeir could've received SO much more "original" attention that it was begging for lore. Now we're told that Mexico needs to come back and people can't play as Egyptians so that needs to come back as well? 
And sure, I can keep those in my games (which I intend to) but will we see novels set there? Will we see lore about it? Will there be more adventurs there abouts? I'm pretty sure the answer to those questions is "No". And yet, I doubt we'll see indepth and interesting information about Mulhorand or Maztica because they've had 25+ years to do that and they sat on their hands  . Please
Diffan has summed up much of what I wanted to say on the topic. THank you.
quote:
Originally posted by Venger
I will agree, though, that we don't need Tyr back. One of the few good things that happened in 4E was the removal of Tyr and the elevation of Torm to greater god status. I'd hate to see that changed in the 5E Realms. Torm's far more interesting, and his personality, history (Chalsembyr. He was also likely alive when the Dead Three were alive. Did they meet in life? And if so, what happened?) and relationships (Like his enmity with Bane) is a far more worthwhile thing to explore than anything Tyr has to offer.
Ugh. I'd rather not have a god that acts like a Paladin character from a novel, and the worst Paladin stereotype at that, as a god at all, if it could be helped. Bring back the god of Justice that actually acts like a god of justice, please. |
Edited by - doctorbadwolf on 27 Aug 2012 19:55:37 |
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Venger
Learned Scribe
USA
269 Posts |
Posted - 27 Aug 2012 : 19:57:52
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quote:
And we've established thoroughly now the inevitible disenfranchisement of more FR fans with this new direction. Because either my view or yours will win. They may try to mask the winner by giving some consolation prize (like portals that lead to Abeir), but it will still be clear that the losing side "isn't playing FR correctly".
Oh well. This whole thing could have been cool.
A huge chunk of the Forgotten Realms fanbase was disenfranchised with the advent of the 4E Realms, which discarded the dozens of books, boxed sets, and supplements which they'd purchased over the years and replaced it and a world which they'd followed for potentially 20 years with a world which was drastically different than the one they'd followed. I'm sorry you feel disenfranchised, but in comparison to that, you're only losing out on four years of dedication and only have two game supplements being negated by 5E. And only partially negated, at that. There is no massive time jump or a massive revamp of the continent as there was for us. |
"Beware what you say when you speak of magic, wizard, or you shall see who has the greater power." |
Edited by - Venger on 27 Aug 2012 20:51:29 |
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Venger
Learned Scribe
USA
269 Posts |
Posted - 27 Aug 2012 : 20:02:22
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quote:
Ugh. I'd rather not have a god that acts like a Paladin character from a novel, and the worst Paladin stereotype at that, as a god at all, if it could be helped. Bring back the god of Justice that actually acts like a god of justice, please.
Worst Paladin stereotype? So fighting and dying to preserve the people of Tantras against Bane is the worst Paladin stereotype? Being the only god during the Time of Troubles to live up to his ideals is a bad stereotype? Teaming up with Mask, Oghma, and Mystra to combat Cyric is a terrible Paladin stereotype?
Incidentally, you misunderstand what justice is. Justice isn't a strict adherence to the rules as set down. That's how Tyr acts, and by that measure he should be Lawful Neutral. Justice is about arriving at a moral and just result, especially when the laws and the rules themselves are immoral or unjust.
Tyr doesn't act like a god of justice. He acts like an automaton. He's so focused on the Lawful part of his alignment that he completely ignores the Good part, which is why Helm ended up getting killed. |
"Beware what you say when you speak of magic, wizard, or you shall see who has the greater power." |
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Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader
USA
2717 Posts |
Posted - 27 Aug 2012 : 20:24:21
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Venger, just because someone laments losing some part of the Realms they like doesn’t give you license to rub it in their faces and otherwise be a douchebag.
quote:
Originally posted by Venger
A huge chunk of the Forgotten Realms fanbase was disenfranchised with the advent of the 4E Realms, which discarded the dozens of books, boxed sets, and supplements which they'd purchased over the years (snip)
As someone who’s been following the Realms for over 20 years and still continues to enjoy it, I’m not sure how to take this.
On the one hand, your statement isn’t true. On the other, it reeks of self-important pity party. |
Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver). |
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Venger
Learned Scribe
USA
269 Posts |
Posted - 27 Aug 2012 : 20:37:32
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Isn't true, how? Am I wrong in believing that a great many Forgotten Realms fans were upset with the changes? Are all those people who've posted here, on the WotC boards, and elsewhere, all alt ID's of mine? Were all those people who raised their hands at Gencon when asked about the things they disliked about the 4E Realms really all me, too? Or were they other people who were critical of the turn which the Realms took in 4E?
As for pity party, I was responding to doctorbadwolf's post, where he states that...
quote:
And we've established thoroughly now the inevitible disenfranchisement of more FR fans with this new direction. Because either my view or yours will win. They may try to mask the winner by giving some consolation prize (like portals that lead to Abeir), but it will still be clear that the losing side "isn't playing FR correctly".
Oh well. This whole thing could have been cool.
...and that he and those like him were being disenfranchised. However much they feel disenfranchised, though, that can't compare to 3E Realms fans. 4E Realms fans will move into the 5E Realms having only purchased two or three game books which'll mostly still be useful, as the entire continent isn't being revamped, and there won't be a time jump. If that's disenfranchisement then what do you call the effects on the previous Realms fans, who saw fare more changes in the changeover from 3E to 4E, had a 100 year time jump, and may have had decades worth of investment in the previous Realms, with hundreds if not thousands of dollars spent on dozens of books?
So tell me again how my statement isn't true, and how it reeks of self-important pity party when contrasted against the quoted post?
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Venger, just because someone laments losing some part of the Realms they like doesn’t give you license to rub it in their faces and otherwise be a douchebag.
Whoops, missed this part the first time. You're right, that Weeping Walrus joke was a low blow. I edited it out. |
"Beware what you say when you speak of magic, wizard, or you shall see who has the greater power." |
Edited by - Venger on 27 Aug 2012 20:50:18 |
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Richard Lee Byers
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
1814 Posts |
Posted - 27 Aug 2012 : 21:03:05
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| Despite some retellings of origins, the Marvel Universe doesn't really reboot over and over again in Groundhog's Day fashion. Rather, there is a storytelling convention that no matter how many adventures the characters have experienced, those adventures somehow happened in the course of just a few years. In the case of heroes like Spider-Man, who's appeared in thousands of comics over several decades, that makes a mockery of common sense, but fans are in effect asked to ignore the underlying absurdity for the sake of enjoying the fun. And when you consider the countless DC reboots and all their attendant problems, Marvel's may be the better approach. |
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Venger
Learned Scribe
USA
269 Posts |
Posted - 27 Aug 2012 : 21:10:35
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Yeah, I was actually commenting on Marvel's sliding timescale elsewhere. Basically they have a set amount of years in which all of a characters stories take place and the year they officially started their career continually changes in relation to the present date.
For example, let's say that for the X-Men, their time scale is 15 years. In an X-Men issue which is released in 2007, the events are assumed to have occured in 2007. But because the sliding timescale is 15 years that means then that the events of X-Men #1 occured in 1992, not 1963. But if you pick up a current issue of X-Men then the events in that issue are assumed to occur in 2012, and the start of X-Men history is pushed back to fit with that time scale, so X-Men #1 is now assumed to have taken place in 1997.
In other words, all that matters is the present date, not the start date. The start date is continually pushed back so that it'll keep up with the present. That's why you'll have occasional retcons of character history as you go. Iron Man, for instance, was now wounded in Afghanistan instead of in Vietnam, while Reed Richards and Ben Grimm are no longer WWII veterans. |
"Beware what you say when you speak of magic, wizard, or you shall see who has the greater power." |
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deserk
Learned Scribe
Norway
239 Posts |
Posted - 27 Aug 2012 : 21:23:36
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Personally I want as much of the Spellplague's effects removed as possible, and entire countries of the past brought back (even if it's just fractions of it).
Like, I've said on the WotC board, when I first read 4E FRCS, it felt like it said to me "POOF, we nuked the Realms! All of your favourite deities and countries are gone. Oh and here's some Dragonborn and Genasi taking over a bunch of places. Thanks for the money, bye!"
That isn't to say everything about 4E Realms was bad, but the bad outweighed the good by a long shot. |
Edited by - deserk on 27 Aug 2012 21:27:59 |
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doctorbadwolf
Acolyte
USA
31 Posts |
Posted - 27 Aug 2012 : 21:23:56
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quote:
Originally posted by Venger
quote:
And we've established thoroughly now the inevitible disenfranchisement of more FR fans with this new direction. Because either my view or yours will win. They may try to mask the winner by giving some consolation prize (like portals that lead to Abeir), but it will still be clear that the losing side "isn't playing FR correctly".
Oh well. This whole thing could have been cool.
A huge chunk of the Forgotten Realms fanbase was disenfranchised with the advent of the 4E Realms, which discarded the dozens of books, boxed sets, and supplements which they'd purchased over the years and replaced it and a world which they'd followed for potentially 20 years with a world which was drastically different than the one they'd followed. I'm sorry you feel disenfranchised, but in comparison to that, you're only losing out on four years of dedication and only have two game supplements being negated by 5E. And only partially negated, at that. There is no massive time jump or a massive revamp of the continent as there was for us.
Did you really just use that argument? Seriously?
For one thing, I'm well aware of the disenfranchisement of other fans, which is why I said "more fans". For another, "your complaint isn't important because I got screwed worse" isn't valid even when it's based on truth, and I could argue that as it is.
I'm sorry, but that post is disgusting.
quote:
Originally posted by Venger
quote:
Ugh. I'd rather not have a god that acts like a Paladin character from a novel, and the worst Paladin stereotype at that, as a god at all, if it could be helped. Bring back the god of Justice that actually acts like a god of justice, please.
Worst Paladin stereotype? So fighting and dying to preserve the people of Tantras against Bane is the worst Paladin stereotype? Being the only god during the Time of Troubles to live up to his ideals is a bad stereotype? Teaming up with Mask, Oghma, and Mystra to combat Cyric is a terrible Paladin stereotype?
Incidentally, you misunderstand what justice is. Justice isn't a strict adherence to the rules as set down. That's how Tyr acts, and by that measure he should be Lawful Neutral. Justice is about arriving at a moral and just result, especially when the laws and the rules themselves are immoral or unjust.
Tyr doesn't act like a god of justice. He acts like an automaton. He's so focused on the Lawful part of his alignment that he completely ignores the Good part, which is why Helm ended up getting killed.
No, you misunderstand justice. Justice is absolute, or it literally does not exist. Period.
It is impartial, or it literally does not exist. Period.
Torm isn't a god of Justice, he's just a crusader with divine power. There's nothing of the Judge in him, at all, and far too much of the crusading zealot. He is the paladin that leaves the village to it's fate because it somehow brought the plague of undead on itself by ignoring the gods or allowing both good and evil churches to have temples there. He is the church that chose to let innocent elves die horrible deaths by walling in a forest out of fear of and suspicion toward the primal spirits.
And maybe Tyr should be Lawful Neutral, but only because a strong argument can be made that the god of justice should be Lawful Neutral. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 27 Aug 2012 : 21:35:21
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No-one is saying bring back Maztica as-is, or even Mulhorand. For Heaven's sake, we've all complained about those places for years (and are sorry now that we did). There are some major thematic elements there that were awesome, but then were taken to a derivative extreme. We need not take it that extreme again. We don't have to rip out the foundation just to put up a new building. I think with certain 4e elements sprinkled-in (and perhaps some brand-new stuff), those areas could meet the potential they've always had.
Seriously, they replaced boring Maztica with 'Faerûn West'. You know what was the best part about Returned Abeir? It was the only part of FR that still sounded like FR in 4e. You know what the worst part of Returned Abeir was? It was just like FR. It served no purpose; what could I do there that I couldn't do anywhere else on the main continent? All that was was a bone they were throwing the old fans, which backfired.
At least Maztica had its own flavor, even if it was copy-&-pasted from the RW. I think an amalgam of the two would be something new, exciting, and the perfect fix for all our woes (in that one area, I mean).
And if folks love Arkanul so damn much, hitch the damn earthmote to a flock of dragons and drag it to Calimshan where it belongs. I don't mind it, I just mind what it over-wrote, and the fact that they used this twice in two different places. We only need one Genasi region (we actually don't need any, but I am willing to compromise).
And they could even use Zehir as a 'lost aspect' of the world serpent - the piece that was missing (because it was in Abeir) that caused the World serpent to shatter in the first place. Tie the Maztica lore - the TRUE WORLD - to the concept of a once-united Abeir-Toril and its pure win. Their mythology blends with both the draconic pantheon/mythos and the new 4e lore almost perfectly. We need to use that. Moving forward, we need to establish ties for the new lore to the older lore. No-one minds change in a setting when it looks like it was "all part of the plan". In almost every setting, nothing past the first few installments is 'part of the plan' - the trick is to make it look like it was. That was one of 4e's biggest misses - it was an all-too-obvious reset. Unfortunately, the cat's already out of the bag; I'm not sure if they can stick that genie back in the bottle now.
I think their current solution/plan - make EVERYTHING that has 'come before' look like an interim of the 'true setting' - is brilliant, and possibly the closest thing to a perfect fix as possible. They've managed to change four editions into a novel trilogy. Now that the 'bad stuff' is mostly over, we get the world that should have been. All fourth edition was was our Return of the King. Time for us hobbits to go home.
quote:
Originally posted by Richard Lee Byers
Despite some retellings of origins, the Marvel Universe doesn't really reboot over and over again in Groundhog's Day fashion. Rather, there is a storytelling convention that no matter how many adventures the characters have experienced, those adventures somehow happened in the course of just a few years. In the case of heroes like Spider-Man, who's appeared in thousands of comics over several decades, that makes a mockery of common sense, but fans are in effect asked to ignore the underlying absurdity for the sake of enjoying the fun. And when you consider the countless DC reboots and all their attendant problems, Marvel's may be the better approach.
Because Spidey has either been in college for 40 years (and people age slowly in the Marvel universe... and learn slowly), or that he actually has dozens of adventures in a single day.
I think I may prefer DC's take - the older iterations of heroes are supposed to be on a different Earth (for instance, the Superman who fought Nazis was on Earth2). Then again, they screwed that up with Crisis (then un-screwed it, and then re-screwed it again). I actually think Crisis was a great idea, but it caused way too many glitches in the long run.
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"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 27 Aug 2012 21:54:57 |
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The Red Walker
Great Reader
USA
3567 Posts |
Posted - 27 Aug 2012 : 21:53:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
No-one is saying bring back Maztica as-is, or even Mulhorand. For Heaven's sake, we've all complained about those places for years (and are sorry now that we did). There are some major thematic elements there that were awesome, but then were taken to a derivative extreme. We need not take it that extreme again. We don't have to rip out the foundation just to put up a new building. I think with certain 4e elements sprinkled-in (and perhaps some brand-new stuff), those areas could meet the potential they've always had.
Seriously, they replaced boring Maztica with 'Faerûn West'. You know what the best part about Returned Abeir? It was the only part of FR that still sounded like FR in 4e. You know what the worst part of Returned Abeir was? It was just like FR. It served no purpose; what could I do there that I couldn't do anywhere else on the main continent? All that was was a bone they were throwing the old fans, which backfired.
At least Maztica had its own flavor, even if it was copy-&-pasted from the RW. I think an amalgam of the two would be something new, exciting, and the perfect fix for all our woes (in that one area, I mean).
And if folks love Arkanul so damn much, hitch the damn earthmote to a flock of dragons and drag it to Calimshan where it belongs. I don't mind it, I just mind what it over-wrote, and the fact that they used this twice in two different places. We only need one Genasi region (we actually don't need any, but I am willing to compromise).
And they could even use Zehir as a 'lost aspect' of the world serpent - the piece that was missing (because it was in Abeir) that caused the World serpent to shatter in the first place. Tie the Maztica lore - the TRUE WORLD - to the concept of a once-united Abeir-Toril and its pure win. Their mythology blends with both the draconic pantheon/mythos and the new 4e lore almost perfectly. We need to use that. Moving forward, we need to establish ties for the new lore to the older lore. No-one minds change in a setting when it looks like it was "all part of the plan". In almost every setting, nothing past the first few installments is 'part of the plan' - the trick is to make it look like it was. That was one of 4e's biggest misses - it was an all-too-obvious reset. Unfortunately, the cat's already out of the bag; I'm not sure if they can stick that genie back in the bottle now.
I think their current solution/plan - make EVERYTHING that has 'come before' look like an interim of the 'true setting' - is brilliant, and possibly the closest thing to a perfect fix as possible. They've managed to change four editions into a novel trilogy. Now that the 'bad stuff' is mostly over, we get the world that should have been. All fourth edition was was our Return of the King. Time for us hobbits to go home.
quote:
Originally posted by Richard Lee Byers
Despite some retellings of origins, the Marvel Universe doesn't really reboot over and over again in Groundhog's Day fashion. Rather, there is a storytelling convention that no matter how many adventures the characters have experienced, those adventures somehow happened in the course of just a few years. In the case of heroes like Spider-Man, who's appeared in thousands of comics over several decades, that makes a mockery of common sense, but fans are in effect asked to ignore the underlying absurdity for the sake of enjoying the fun. And when you consider the countless DC reboots and all their attendant problems, Marvel's may be the better approach.
Because Spidey has either been in college for 40 years (and people age slowly in the Marvel universe... and learn slowly), or that he actually has dozens of adventures in a single day.
I think I may prefer DC's take - the older iterations of heroes are supposed to be on a different Earth (for instance, the Superman who fought Nazis was on Earth2). Then again, they screwed that up with Crisis (then un-screwed it, and then re-screwed it again). I actually think Crisis was a great idea, but it caused way too many glitches in the long run.
I like all that except the concept of a once-united Abeir-Toril.
Unless I misunderstand(shocking I know, but still possible  ) there was Toril. The was big battle between "gods" and Primordials. AO "copied" Toril, which gave us Abeir and set it aside for Primordials. Left Toril to "the gods". Abeir and Toril never were "united" so Abeir cannot be "returned" to a place it never was.
Abeir never belong with Toril, they just collided due to the forces unleashed in The Sundering, kickstarted by Ao having a hissy fit and breaking the tablets of fate (tyring the tough love approach I guess)..and really jumped into over drive by the spellplague.
If I've misinterpreted,oversimplified or went of the tracks.... I'd like to know where. I'm just trying to get my head around this and not trying to "be right". I have no where near enough understanding to argue about any of it! |
A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka
"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -
John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
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Edited by - The Red Walker on 27 Aug 2012 21:56:06 |
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Venger
Learned Scribe
USA
269 Posts |
Posted - 27 Aug 2012 : 21:55:48
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quote:
Did you really just use that argument? Seriously?
For one thing, I'm well aware of the disenfranchisement of other fans, which is why I said "more fans". For another, "your complaint isn't important because I got screwed worse" isn't valid even when it's based on truth, and I could argue that as it is.
I'm sorry, but that post is disgusting.
Your standpoint is to screw over the majority, who're unhappy with the 4E Realms, to please the minority who bought into the 4E Realms. And you're telling me that my post is disgusting? There are two groups of people, here. You can't please both groups. In the end, it's better to please the group which is larger and which has invested far more into the Forgotten Realms than it is to please the group which is smaller and which has invested far less time and money into it. How is that disgusting?
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No, you misunderstand justice. Justice is absolute, or it literally does not exist. Period. It is impartial, or it literally does not exist. Period.
And you're wrong. Period. There's more to justice than simple impartiality, than just following the laws as written, because the laws themselves can be tyrannical, unjust, and evil.
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Torm isn't a god of Justice, he's just a crusader with divine power. There's nothing of the Judge in him, at all, and far too much of the crusading zealot. He is the paladin that leaves the village to it's fate because it somehow brought the plague of undead on itself by ignoring the gods or allowing both good and evil churches to have temples there.
When exactly has Torm ever done anything of the sort? Can you cite any sources? Because that's the exact opposite of how Torm has ever been depicted. Seriously, are you just making stuff up, now?
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He is the church that chose to let innocent elves die horrible deaths by walling in a forest out of fear of and suspicion toward the primal spirits.
So how did those Paladins of Tyr in Thornhold work out? Because I heard they behaved rather badly, but somehow I suspect you don't hold their behavior against Tyr. You're once again mistaking the actions of worshippers for the actions of the god they worship. The two are not the same. If that were the case then every single good god in the Forgotten Realms would be considered the basest kind of evil because they've all had worshippers do terrible things in their names.
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And maybe Tyr should be Lawful Neutral, but only because a strong argument can be made that the god of justice should be Lawful Neutral.
The god of jugment, maybe, but the god of justice? Justice means nothing if it's not tempered by mercy or a desire to do good. |
"Beware what you say when you speak of magic, wizard, or you shall see who has the greater power." |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 27 Aug 2012 : 22:05:03
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Abeir-Toril was one world, which Ao sundered before the deities and primordials could destroy it with their constant fighting.
On that single, united world live the Creator races. Humans are one of the Creator Races. Ergo, humans (perhaps primitive, but still human) lived on a united Abeir-Toril, and it is possible that some truly ancient myths regarding that survived to the present day (not full-blown stories, but 'echoes' of what once was in some of their terminology, like 'True World').
Think of it in the way a cell splits - it uses its mass to split into two smaller masses, both identical to the original. The original no longer exists, but at the same time, there are now two of them. To my thinking, the original proto-continet was identical on both Abeir and Toril, but was twice that size on Abeir-Toril.
Hmmmmm... that just gave me a whole 'nother idea...
On the subject of Tyr: I didn't dislike him, but I never really cared all that much about losing him either. He was a good concept, and perhaps using his 'template' for another deity would work, but I do like FR losing the name itself (I'd like all the RW derivations renamed, if possible). Perhaps the Red Knight becoming the new Tyr (Tyress?). Just don't make her blind and turn her into yet another derivation. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Richard Lee Byers
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
1814 Posts |
Posted - 27 Aug 2012 : 22:22:45
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Markustay: I like DC, but there are a couple problems with DC reboots. One is that they're never clean. DC continuity is so long and tangled that the only way to fix it is to start EVERYTHING over and say that no previous story ever happened. And they have never been willing to do this. Even the most recent reboot, the New 52, didn't throw out the old Batman and Green Lantern continuity because those were the characters who were still selling, and DC didn't want to risk alienating readers invested in their long-running story lines. Perfectly understandable, but the problem is that Batman and Green Lantern's histories cross in crucial ways with those of all the other major characters. Blackest Night is an absolutely pivotal Green Lantern story that manifestly still happened, and the Justice Society heroes are in it. Even though in the New 52, they never existed on the primary DC Earth.
Another problem with DC's reboots is the temptation (and sometimes the necessity) or rehashing the same ideas over and over again. How many times are you willing to spend money to watch Krypton explode or Thomas and Martha Wayne gunned down in Crime Alley? For me, the answer is none.
Still another problem is that reboots can throw story lines and character development that readers liked under the bus. I was a big fan of the way Green Arrow evolved in recent years. Now that all that has been discarded and he's a brash young newbie hero again, I have no interest in him whatsoever.
Reboots may make marketing sense for DC (the New 52 produced a big upturn in sales, although I don't know if that effect has lasted), but I generally don't see the point of them from a storytelling standpoint. I say, get a good writer with a solid take on a character and simply allow him to take the characters. It worked both artistically and commercially when Grant Morrison picked up Doom Patrol, Animal Man, and Batman. and when Geoff Johns picked up Green Lantern and Flash.
What are we supposed to be talking about in this thread again? Oh, yeah, the Realms... |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 27 Aug 2012 : 23:09:13
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I think this is pertinent to the Realms, though. Or, at least, to the Realms' future. Better to discuss all these pros and cons now, before we get another pissed-off fanbase.
I understand what you mean, though. I see some of this in Marvel, especially when they lose an IP they had the rights to. When they lost Conan, they lost Conan and Sonja and a lot of other cool things, yet a bunch of other 'fallout' from those stories is still active in the Marvel Universe. Kulan Gath is a great bad guy, but he's basically been 'orphaned' from his own past.
I'm glad you brought this up, because I was still wistfully thinking about getting a 'soft reboot', but you've helped me understand why that really wouldn't have worked. People 'think' it worked in Star Trek, but thats only because we've only had one movie. If the franchise begins to grow again, I am sure multitude problems will creep-in (for instance, most of the continuity problems were caused by Enterprise, which is the only series NOT invalidated by the reboot).
I guess the bottom line here is, Ed is steering this, and he has lots of great help. The more people taking a look at everything being done, the better. One chief, lots of Indians. A setting by consensus - its the only way to handle an IP as lore-heavy as FR. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 27 Aug 2012 23:10:07 |
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Tyrant
Senior Scribe
USA
586 Posts |
Posted - 27 Aug 2012 : 23:10:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Venger
Your standpoint is to screw over the majority, who're unhappy with the 4E Realms, to please the minority who bought into the 4E Realms. And you're telling me that my post is disgusting? There are two groups of people, here. You can't please both groups. In the end, it's better to please the group which is larger and which has invested far more into the Forgotten Realms than it is to please the group which is smaller and which has invested far less time and money into it.
As someone who argued against this particular viewpoint quite vocally a few months ago, I can tell you that you have few, if any, real facts to back up your claims. No one in a position to actually know has bothered to let us in on sales figures or estimated sizes of the fan base. Do I personally believe there were more Realms fans than there are now? Sure. Did 4E have a lot to do with that? I believe it did. However, no one knows how many fans actually like the current setting as it is. More importantly, no one has the slightest clue how many people can actually be won back at all, much less by any particular strategy. The "burn everything related to 4E" approach is not being endorsed, so WotC obviously feels that either they can't rely on fans who have been scorned to come back or they feel they can't seriously jeopardize their existing fan base. Either way, it is going to be some kind of compromise and not an either/or type set up.
There are also more than 2 groups. I like both points in the setting and want to see the gap filled in so they blend together. Does that make me pro 1/2/3E or pro 4E? Screwing over your currently loyal fans to please those that feel they screwed over in the past is a very poor business decision. Anyone that falls for it is a fool as the company will have now demonstrated a willingness to actively cater to one group at the expense of another when they feel the need despite prior occurences of this strategy not working out so well. It's like going back to someone who cheated on you. They will do it again. An approach that attemps a compromise sends a much better signal to your current, past, and potential future customers. It says that you get it.
As for the topic and the larger thread, I honestly don't have many problems with the 4E setting beyond the time jump. Or rather, not many new problems. I still want to see older stories (The Manshoon Wars, the Crown Wars, etc) given some attention in the novels but that was already a concern. My one real dislike is probably the destruction of Hlondeth. I like the Yuan-Ti and I think they are one of the groups that it makes sense for them to have their own city somewhere.
For 5E, I hope that in areas like Tymanther that we end up with a blend of what is now and what was. I would like to find out that the removed sections have had 100 years of history and dealing with Abeir. Then bits and pieces of the two places and people merge in Toril with some portals connecting them (and some info on Abeir to help flesh it out). Then we have the recipe for conflict on several levels with old and new natives trying to either coexist or wipe each other out and possibly taking up old rivalries on Toril.
I would like to see something done with Jhaamdath. Not just a "boom, we're back" like the Shades and Imaskari. Use this opportunity to awaken Auppenser and increase the occurences of psionics. Not having tons of them running around, but enough that they can be drawn to some ruins or artifacts or something from ancient Jhaamdath to start building something new in it's place.
I would further explore/define/refine the idea of some gods being aspects of others. In doing this, I think the best approach would be to say that some have become seperate from their "host". Like Talos. Between worship, divine powers/wierdness beyond mortal understanding, and a little bit of magic it isn't too hard to believe that a god could lose control of one of it's aspects to the point that it becomes a seperate entity. Something like split personality disorder taken to an extreme. I think it would mainly be belief manifesting into reality. People think they are worshipping Talos, not Gruumsh, so Talos becomes real and not just Gruumsh in disguise.
I also really like the idea being floated here of a reborn Thay in new territory that embraces a larger view of magic. I could see the Thayans being reluctant to accept Warlocks and Sorcorers and down the road they may try to marginalize them. As a psionics fan, I would throw them in as well.
As a side note, I prefer Marvel's approach to the timeline even if it defies logic. I don't like washing away continuity when it doesn't have to be.
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Peace is a lie, there is only passion. Through passion, I gain strength. Through strength, I gain power. Through power, I gain victory. Through victory, my chains are broken. The Force shall free me.
-The Sith Code
Teenage Sith zombies, Tulkh thought-how in the moons of Bogden had it all started? Every so often, the universe must just get bored and decide to really cut loose. -Star Wars: Red Harvest |
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Venger
Learned Scribe
USA
269 Posts |
Posted - 27 Aug 2012 : 23:12:06
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quote:
On the subject of Tyr: I didn't dislike him, but I never really cared all that much about losing him either. He was a good concept, and perhaps using his 'template' for another deity would work, but I do like FR losing the name itself (I'd like all the RW derivations renamed, if possible). Perhaps the Red Knight becoming the new Tyr (Tyress?). Just don't make her blind and turn her into yet another derivation.
Well, if what we've been told about every god coming back is true, then Tyr's probably coming back as well. I hope Torm will remain the Greater God of Duty, Honor, and Justice, though. Obviously I'm biased, but my bias comes from years of playing in the Forgotten Realms and reading the books.
I primarily play Lawful Good types (None of whom have ever let villages burn because they had a church of an evil god in their town or anything silly like that) and I've always been disappointed with the choices which the Realms offered as far as Lawful Good faiths are concerned. The only really good choice, Torm, was a Demigod when I started playing, and he was promoted to Lesser God soon after. All I had to go on at the time were those little blurbs in the grey box, but even there, Torm seemed like a far more interesting deity than Tyr despite only being a Demigod while Tyr was a Greater God.
My estimation of the character went up with the Time of Troubles, though, as we had a character who recognized the flaws within his own church and set out to fix it. He followed that up by sacrificing himself in one-on-one combat with Bane, fighting him to the death in the harbor of Tantras. Of all the gods who died during that fighting it was Torm alone who Ao chose to resurrect. Contrast that to Tyr, the Lawful Good Greater God, whose most notable action in the entire series was having his eyes put out by Ao for speaking out of turn.
Then we had the Cyrinishad affair and it was Torm, not Tyr or any other Lawful Good god, who allied himself with Mystra, Oghma, and Mask(!) to fight against Cyric. He wasn't just sitting idly by and doing nothing. He was proactive. He was doing something. He was engaged in things. Despite only being a Lesser Power, he still willingly went up against Cyric, who at that point in time had insane amounts of power.
The Church of Torm is also just so much more interesting. You're worshipping a god who has willingly fought the good fight and paid the price in order to protect his worshippers. You have the Martyr's Progeny, who are the orphaned children of those who sacrificed themselves to empower Torm in his fight against Bane and were taken in and cared for by the Church of Torm. You also have the legend of lost Chalsembyr, Torm's lost homeland from when he was a mortal, and the belief that if any worshipper of Torm should discover its location they'll be elevated to godhood. All of that and more makes for a far more interesting organization for the Lawful Good adventurer than the Church of Tyr (Nevermind the possibility that Torm was a mortal when Bane, Myrkul, and Bhaal were also mortals. That's a story possibility that's worth exploring).
Then when 3E came out and Bane had returned, we read how the people of Faerun are now looking to Torm to save them from Bane again, and Torm's directing his church to counter the Church of Bane and is prepared to go head to head with Bane. Once again, we're talking a Lesser God who's prepared to confront a Greater God. And those feelings are reciprocated, as Bane's entry in Faiths and Pantheons states that he hates Torm most above all the other gods in the Faerunian Pantheon, even moreso than Cyric and Mystra!
The problem with all that, though, is that Torm was still a Lesser God. All the major forces of evil have a Greater God fighting for them, pushing their agenda forward, and serving as a general. We have the Neutral Evil Shar, the Chaotic Evil Cyric, and the Lawful Evil Bane. The only Lawful Good god who was filling that same role, though, was only a Lesser God. By contrast, Tyr has always seemed to have a narrower focus. He's never seemed to be as engaged in the battle between good and evil as Torm has been. The court of law seems to be the beginning and the end to his interests, and that doesn't make for a very interesting god for Lawful Good adventurers, nor a standard bearer for the Lawful Good cause on the planes. That's the job for a lesser god whose duties are more narrow in focus, like Deneir or Azuth. God of law, procedure, and order or something similar seems like a much better fit for him than the overarching concept of justice.
So my hope is that, if and when Tyr does come back, that he’ll perform a lesser role. He’ll get to stick to his narrow focus of Law and Order, only taking up a warrior role when necessary, while Torm is the proactive god of Duty, Honor, and Justice. Of course that doesn’t mean he should be swooping down on Faerun like Superman, but just as Bane, Cyric, and Shar will be serving in their specific roles pushing forward their beliefs through their churches and other means and looking after their worshippers, I’d like to see Torm fulfilling that same role for the Lawful Good side.
That'd be my preference, at any rate. |
"Beware what you say when you speak of magic, wizard, or you shall see who has the greater power." |
Edited by - Venger on 27 Aug 2012 23:16:59 |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4490 Posts |
Posted - 27 Aug 2012 : 23:14:11
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Tyrant, great post and well said.
EDIT:
RE: Tyr-
I can't say that I'd be happy to see him back. For one thing, I think He, Helm, and Torm make an extreamly redundant trio. Like eating the same vanilla ice cream, but different topping. I've made my share of Tyrran priests and paladins and while I thought his schtick was cool and everything, he just seems like a tired old man that just wants to retire at this point. I like the fact that Torm, Ilmater, and Bahamut compromise the "New" Triad, a more fitting and triangular sect that represents three different, yet important tiers among themselves. Then you have the fact that Tyr is actually Norse and I'm becoming more and more irritated with RW-analogies/paralells.
But I freely admit that I'm partial to paladins, a full-plate armored holy warrior of dispensing justice and righteousness. I have absolutely nothing wrong with a Crusading Zealot at the helm of the Justice/Hornor/Chivalry Dogma. |
Diffan's NPG Generator: FR NPC Generator
E6 Options: Epic 6 Campaign |
Edited by - Diffan on 27 Aug 2012 23:21:52 |
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Venger
Learned Scribe
USA
269 Posts |
Posted - 27 Aug 2012 : 23:30:45
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quote:
As someone who argued against this particular viewpoint quite vocally a few months ago, I can tell you that you have few, if any, real facts to back up your claims. No one in a position to actually know has bothered to let us in on sales figures or estimated sizes of the fan base. Do I personally believe there were more Realms fans than there are now? Sure. Did 4E have a lot to do with that? I believe it did. However, no one knows how many fans actually like the current setting as it is.
No one has hard numbers, no, but no facts to support it? The 4E Realms has been loudly and widely denounced. Could it be that it's just a tiny minority on the internet who don't represent the silent majority? Maybe. But if that were the case then WotC wouldn't feel the need at all to distance itself from the 4E Realms. If it were such a hot seller, and a superior money maker to the 3E Realms, then they'd be pushing forward on that. They wouldn't be trying to undo many of the major elements of the 4E Realms. You don't try to undo success. You do, however, try to undo failure. In which case, yes, it can be reasonably argued that the 4E Realms was a failure (I've also heard that 4E in general has occasionally slipped behind the sales for Pathfinder).
quote:
The "burn everything related to 4E" approach is not being endorsed, so WotC obviously feels that either they can't rely on fans who have been scorned to come back or they feel they can't seriously jeopardize their existing fan base. Either way, it is going to be some kind of compromise and not an either/or type set up.
In some cases it has to be either/or, because in some cases there's no room for compromise. You have a small space of land. It's currently being occupied by Tymanther, but used to be occupied by Mulhorand. Only ONE of them can exist on that plot of land. A decision has to be made. Fortunately it appears that the decision was made to send Tymanther back to Abeir and return Mulhorand. But in that case, yes, it was an either/or situation. Although they aren't doing away with Tymanther entirely, possibly keeping some of the people as well as keeping links through portals.
If there're cases where they can compromise to make everyone happy, then great, I'm all for it. There will be some instances, though, where you have to come down on one side or the other. There's a segment who wants Elminster dead, another who wants him alive. There's no compromise there. Either he's dead or alive. |
"Beware what you say when you speak of magic, wizard, or you shall see who has the greater power." |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4490 Posts |
Posted - 27 Aug 2012 : 23:56:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Venger
quote:
As someone who argued against this particular viewpoint quite vocally a few months ago, I can tell you that you have few, if any, real facts to back up your claims. No one in a position to actually know has bothered to let us in on sales figures or estimated sizes of the fan base. Do I personally believe there were more Realms fans than there are now? Sure. Did 4E have a lot to do with that? I believe it did. However, no one knows how many fans actually like the current setting as it is.
No one has hard numbers, no, but no facts to support it? The 4E Realms has been loudly and widely denounced. Could it be that it's just a tiny minority on the internet who don't represent the silent majority? Maybe. But if that were the case then WotC wouldn't feel the need at all to distance itself from the 4E Realms.
Seems to me that they (being WotC) see that there are people who don't like the 4E Realms, but denouncing it altogether? Not really. There are going to be changes but it appears from what some of the authors and designers are saying this time around is that their intent is to make as many people happy as possible. If the difference was as huge as some people like to claim (and boy do they claim it loud) then WotC would just write off the entire event wholesale. Clearly that's not the case. And this venting against 4E-Realms varies GREATLY depending on your forum. Here, on Paizo, and some at ENworld often site the changes to the Realms as bad or depressing but they, by large, don't tend to view ANY 4th Edition material as good or great in general, regardless of what happend to the Realms. But if you look at say RPG.net or the Wizards forums then there tends to be a much stronger support for the changes to the Realms, and a more positive attitude towards 4E as a whole.
Basically it's all just conjecture based on ones own belief and until we get some hard numbers stating otherwise, it has little relevance towards the design goals of D&D:Next.
quote:
Originally posted by Venger
If it were such a hot seller, and a superior money maker to the 3E Realms, then they'd be pushing forward on that. They wouldn't be trying to undo many of the major elements of the 4E Realms. You don't try to undo success. You do, however, try to undo failure. In which case, yes, it can be reasonably argued that the 4E Realms was a failure (I've also heard that 4E in general has occasionally slipped behind the sales for Pathfinder).
The problem here is that it's nigh impossible to separate the Realms from the rules/game of 4th Edition when you look towards any sort of validity about popularity. For one, you can't go based on book sales because the Forgotten Realms only put out 3 in the 4+ year run of 4th Edition. What one might do is see how much FR content was downloaded from the DDI articles when they went to a by-article download scheme instead of the whole-issue download. That might give them more feedback. But even then, FR articles in DDI trump just about any other edition Setting by approx 2 to 1 ratio. Apparently they were doing something right or we'd see a LOT more Eberron and Dark Sun content. Just sayin'.
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Diffan's NPG Generator: FR NPC Generator
E6 Options: Epic 6 Campaign |
Edited by - Diffan on 27 Aug 2012 23:58:43 |
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Gustaveren
Learned Scribe
Denmark
197 Posts |
Posted - 28 Aug 2012 : 00:14:07
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Well, it is good to once again read a forgotten realm thread. It is several years since I have done so even though I for decades have collected forgotten realms products. I even rebuild and improved my forgotten realms collection after the first one burned in a fire 11 years ago. The one i have today contains almost all 1e,2e,3e,3.5 and 4e products even though I only have the 4.e newer-winter book since i got it at a 66% discount and I am not sure if I have all the 4e novels since I only brought them for the sake of the collection but could not get myself to actually read them, that is I am not sure if I missed a number of them.
4e kind of killed the setting for me
1) I loved forgotten Realms for it's deep complexity, rich history and high detail levels from all my source books but 4e tried to make it simple and created a world setting low in details and history by only having few source books and by moving timeline way forward
2) They killed the favourite god for my favoured character type (Wizard - mystra)and for some of my friends (Elistrae for the drow loving player and the preferred paladin god for another of my friends fond of paladins)
3) I absolutely hate the repeated use of the following tricks (realm shaking events, remove some powerfyl person / organisation / realm for an arbitrary reason and have the world readjust to the change in powerstructure, something exceptional evil and bad returns from statis / another plane and yet again change the realms in a major way)
4) I absolutely hated the wow inspired rules they had in 4.th edition D&D. I have actually in the past for years played many hours wow on the computer, but that is not what I want to play when I am at a roleplaying table. I absolutely hated that you in 4e had to pick a limited tactical role and stay with it, that there was a major lack of skills, that many spells were removed and everything was about encounter powers and daily powers, I loved to have characters with lots of knowledge skills, craft skills and profession skills. Some of my favourite skills has actually been (craft drawing, craft sculpture, profession herbalist, profession archaeologist, profession sailor, perform dancing,...) I loved to have to think, what spells will I have to memorize for today to handle the expected problems. 4e D&D killed that
5) Most important, old FR contained many places you would actually like to live, but 4e is such a gloomy world and there are frequently realm shaking events.
You stop building emotions for places in the world since you know it is just a question of short time before the wizards of the coast will decide to nuke that area.
Regarding the discussing about what to do in 5e FR
There are ways to keep the past alive: Realms there are removed do after all make a great source for ruins with lots of history and the potential for interesting portals.
I very much hope that they bring the babylonian, Egyptian and Maya cultures but also some of the other legendary nations there was lost (Halrua,..) or had a mercantile feeling (Sembia)
They do not necessarily have to take up as much land as was previously the case since it do for instance create adventure options if there are now some ruins of those cultures in realms of other cultures while the resurrected realms / cultures are living in cities in the near vicinity of those realms there has stolen part of their land. It do create interesting options like: you stole part of our land while we were gone and you are now sponsoring adventure exploration into the ruins of some of our holiest cities. In some cases, Halrua, could it be survivors from some crashed sky ships there have established distant cities in some mountains valleys and now want to sponsor expeditions to recover lore and objects from the ruins of their old cities.
I did not like 4e FR. They destroyed to many places I was fond of, but worst of all "they made the realms a place you did not want to live since so much bad stuff on an epic scale continued to happen"
If I am to buy the 5e books and novels do I want a massive commitment from the company to make enough source books with lore for the new timeline and we are not talking of a reprint of my old 1e, 2e and 3e source books. I want high quality source books updating the areas to the new time, rich in details like names of politcians, sages and merchants, lots of historical details of the areas, description of herbs with interesting properties, famous historical objects there has been lost, the ancestry trees of the royal families, pictures of historical coins and coat of arms etc.
Basically, I am not going to waste money on 5e book if it is the low detail level and extremely slow publication schedule as was the case with 4e. and if they after having issued 5e continue their bad tendency of frequent realm shaking events am I going to boycot 5e. I do like that a campaign world is dynamic, but from natural causes like (a king dies from old age, a guild is outcompeted, a country loose a war due to a bad general etc, but I had enough of every year seeing the return of some ancient evil there has been in statis for thousands of years. It is okey for the source books contains information about such imprisoned ancient evils as long as it is then the GM's choice if he wants to unleash them) |
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Venger
Learned Scribe
USA
269 Posts |
Posted - 28 Aug 2012 : 00:28:05
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quote:
RE: Tyr-
I can't say that I'd be happy to see him back. For one thing, I think He, Helm, and Torm make an extreamly redundant trio. Like eating the same vanilla ice cream, but different topping. I've made my share of Tyrran priests and paladins and while I thought his schtick was cool and everything, he just seems like a tired old man that just wants to retire at this point.
Agreed. He reminded me of Jergal for the longest time, only that he was still a Greater God and hadn't opted for retirement yet. If he has to come back then it'd be nice if he were in semi-retirement. Make him the god of Law, Judgment, or something similar. Basically just have his church be about supporting a system of laws and a fair criminal justice system. He could be the god of judges, lawyers, and magistrates. That's always what he seemed to be, anyway.
BTW: The Triad was Tyr, Ilmater, and Torm (or T.I.T.). Helm wasn't in it.
quote:
I like the fact that Torm, Ilmater, and Bahamut compromise the "New" Triad, a more fitting and triangular sect that represents three different, yet important tiers among themselves...
...But I freely admit that I'm partial to paladins, a full-plate armored holy warrior of dispensing justice and righteousness. I have absolutely nothing wrong with a Crusading Zealot at the helm of the Justice/Hornor/Chivalry Dogma.
Yeah, it's far more interesting having the proactive Torm at the helm than it is having the indifferent Tyr. Gods like Shar, Bane, and Cyric seem like they're active participants. They're at the rudder steering the ship where they want it to go. That's a whole lot more interesting then having a ship captained by a god like Tyr, who's seemingly asleep at the wheel of a ship that's listing aimlessly.
Only thing is I'd have Justice go to Torm and not Bahamut, who should instead have Wisdom (As well as Good Dragons and Wind, although I'd like to see Bahamut get one or two more portfolios which are more interesting than simply "Good Dragons"). When 4E was coming out I assumed that Torm would be getting Justice as that used to be Tyr's portfolio and it's what made him a Greater God, so I was pretty surprised when Bahamut ended up with it instead. Shouldn't he have become a Greater God as a result? And Torm was given Law of all things. Yeesh, talk about a boring portfolio. So IMO, Torm should get Justice along with Duty and Honor (Which, let's face it, just sounds nice when you say it and fits his character perfectly. "Duty, Honor, and Justice." It's like a motto). Partner him with the Ilmater, the God of Endurance, Martyrdom, and Suffering and Bahamut, the God of Wisdom, and you have a very nice Triad. |
"Beware what you say when you speak of magic, wizard, or you shall see who has the greater power." |
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Gustaveren
Learned Scribe
Denmark
197 Posts |
Posted - 28 Aug 2012 : 01:27:15
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I just probably mention, if there is one type of sourcebook I always wanted to see was it:
A description of realmspecific cities and realms located on other planes but with deep ties to the realms (portals, visions, past migrations, trade, strange herbs and arcane materials,....)
In case some realms have to be moved out of Toril and into some other planes could it create a good basis for such a book
Basically, I would like to see, some realm specific cities on the elemental planes, some realm specific content in the feywild, in the plane of shadows, ...
I guess such a book could help reconcile older FR fans and 4e FR fans if such a source book come out a short time after the 5e FR campaign source book |
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Likes/Dislikes of 4E Realms, Wish List for 5E
