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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12194 Posts |
 Posted - 25 Aug 2012 : 02:16:03
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quote:
Originally posted by Venger
quote:
The culture and people of Thay, slaves and soldiers, Red Wizards and all, were what made Thay interesting. Now it's all a mostly undead waste with some skin'n'bones livestock stragglers united under Szass Tam in a boring mad lich hungry for mega-godhood persona. Previously he was far more subtle and all the more mysterious and menacing for it. Previously he was actually original and different for a lich (a relatively young lich, still with some human-level goals), now in the 4e era he's your stereoptyical, Vecna-wannabe, Sauron-lite villain. We had Velsharoon for that ... oh, wait. I guess they needed to rehash that plot line for a replacement...
Also, wouldn't something of this magnitude be great for a campaign. This is adventure path material, WotC. Take some notes from Paizo, a Thayvan Adventure Path would have been epic. Missed. Opportunity.
I agree with the suggestions of posters above, return some element of mainstream (non-undead, non-Tam-dominated) Thayvian peoples and cultures to the plateau. Otherwise, consider what sleyvas suggested, have some of the remaining Red Wizards found a new nation. Make it neutral (with evil tendencies) or evil (with neutral tendencies). Heck, do both, Old Thay and New Thay. Can't ask for more evocative adventuring potential.
A great big thumbs up to this. 4E Thay blows. I want the old Thay back, with a living populace, Red Wizards, Zulkirs representing different magical traditions, and everything else. I honestly have a hard time understanding why they felt the need to do what they did to Thay in the first place. It was one of the most original and "Realmsian" locales in the setting. Why destroy everything unique about it and make it a country of mostly undead milling about?
Actually, the do both thing could bear some merit now that you mention it. Keep the idea that I had with one new nation based on magic forming. Maybe the schools of magic that they have as Zulkirs are the 8 traditional schools, PLUS the elemental schools, but necromancers are not treated well in the culture (if they're even allowed). Since I had already formed the name, we'll just keep calling that the "United Tharchs".
However, What if SOME Zulkirs return to Thay and reclaim a portion of it and manage to suck away some of Tam's necromantic followers. The Zulkirs of this Thay form a government but with fewer schools in control. Maybe its just invocation, conjuration, necromancy, and then they bring in some people that study entirely different forms of magic (binders, shadow mages, warlocks, mystic theurges, warmages, eldritch knights, etc...). In this "reborn Thay" as we'll call it, there is still a large portion of undead, but they are STRICTLY only those undead who are clean enough to not spread disease (for instance skeletal undead). These undead are slaves to the living. Maybe they have some unusual laws about dying in their land, like you can't be resurrected and your body is the property of the state. Maybe they buy the bodies of goblinoids killed in surrounding countries (or maybe offer their services to kill goblinoid incursions at a cut rate if they can have the bodies). But this reborn Thay and Tam don't get along, and there is fighting there.
Maybe this "reborn Thay" even chases the Imaskari out of Skyclave in order to recover their magic, with the people of Gheldaneth aiding them. In return, the "reborn Thayans" tell the people of Gheldaneth that they can return to having slaves and worship whatever gods they want.... or maybe tell is to strong a word, maybe they just say "ok, we have skyclave and the things above it... you guys keep what you have and do whatever tickles your fancy". The people of High Imaskar manage to escape in small numbers to the desert Raurin, where they vow vengeance on the people of "reborn Thay" and "reborn Mulhorand".
Hmmm, to make things really interesting, what if the group that reclaimed Thay has been living in Mulmaster and they also bring a boatload of Banites with them who received a vision (false one) from "Bane" (actually Xvim, in a last ditch effort to strike against his father) that Szass Tam is a heretic. Or, maybe they're actually Xvimists who believe that they can empower their deity by "siphoning the power given to Tam by Bane".
It might also be interesting if some of the people in this "reborn Thay" are members of the family of Tam who have been mistreated. Also, building strong ties between this "reborn Thay" and the drow city "Undrek'Thoz" has a lot of potential.
Now throw in that "reborn Thay" and the "United Tharchs" don't like each other (maybe during the past century their enclaves didn't work well together). |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Patrakis
Learned Scribe
Canada
256 Posts |
Posted - 25 Aug 2012 : 05:03:07
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As for 5e Realms, well, i've pretty much given up any hope or intentions of ever playing a game in it again. It has become and will continue to be a world for novels and stories that i will enjoy reading about from authors that i like. I guess i have no hope then. Just curiosity as to what they will throw at us in the future.
For me,it's a much more zen way to look at the realms. I've found a new place to play in so now i can enjoy the Realms show as a reader and not a gamer.
With that new perpective, i think i'll go check out all the 4e novels i missed in the last years and maybe i'll enjoy them.
Pat |
Dancing is like standing still, but faster.
My site: http://www.patoumonde.com |
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Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader
USA
2717 Posts |
Posted - 25 Aug 2012 : 07:22:13
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Now the two cultures guard their portals on each side, for fear of reprisal from the other world. Meanwhile, worship of Tiamat spreads on both worlds as the enemy of both cultures.
I like this.
I'd say there's still room for Bahamut there too.
The idea of the deities having some influence and bleed through into both worlds is something I've been wondering about, especially now that at least a handful of worshipers will be sent back to Abeir.
I'm curious just how absolute the Sundering will be in terms of rewriting things because I'd like to see divine pantheons get a toehold in Abeir. |
Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver). |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12194 Posts |
Posted - 25 Aug 2012 : 10:06:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy Grenemyer
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Now the two cultures guard their portals on each side, for fear of reprisal from the other world. Meanwhile, worship of Tiamat spreads on both worlds as the enemy of both cultures.
I like this.
I'd say there's still room for Bahamut there too.
The idea of the deities having some influence and bleed through into both worlds is something I've been wondering about, especially now that at least a handful of worshipers will be sent back to Abeir.
I'm curious just how absolute the Sundering will be in terms of rewriting things because I'd like to see divine pantheons get a toehold in Abeir.
Yes, and just how much of an allowance will Ao give to gods going over. For instance, was the Godswall that the Imaskari used actually something tied to the tablets of fate. In Abeir is there something akin to the godswall for all gods in existence. So, in that case, do the Mulhorandi gods and Bahamut have to physically go there as manifestations amongst their people (and did they end up doing so after the spellplague)?
If this is the case (that manifestations of the Mulhorandi deities appear on Abeir, but they're normal gods on Toril again), it might be that the Mulhorandi and Untherites might actually control some of those portals that spring up between the two. Personally, I'd have it that the avatars of these deities cannot traverse through these portals, and as a result the high priests would need to relay information to their deity on each side. They may be trying to hide the fact that the gods are split from the people.... and this could cause schism's within the Mulhorandi faith. For instance, some may be very disturbed by the fact that their god on Toril doesn't know what's going on with them when they're WITH their god on Abeir. If this is the case, some may think that the gods from the Faerunian Pantheon are alias'ing themselves as the old Mulhorandi deities (and maybe they're right). Then, a schism breaks out, and some of the Mulhorandi decide they want to go "home" to Abeir. It becomes viewed by the people on each side that the people on the other are heretics, and after some time the portals are again guarded between these two different sects of Mulhorandi. Since very few would actually interact with the manifestations themselves AND be moving back and forth between worlds, it could easily take a while for this type of thing to actually be realized. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12194 Posts |
Posted - 25 Aug 2012 : 10:21:23
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy Grenemyer
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Now the two cultures guard their portals on each side, for fear of reprisal from the other world. Meanwhile, worship of Tiamat spreads on both worlds as the enemy of both cultures.
I like this.
I'd say there's still room for Bahamut there too.
The idea of the deities having some influence and bleed through into both worlds is something I've been wondering about, especially now that at least a handful of worshipers will be sent back to Abeir.
I'm curious just how absolute the Sundering will be in terms of rewriting things because I'd like to see divine pantheons get a toehold in Abeir.
Yes, and just how much of an allowance will Ao give to gods going over. For instance, was the Godswall that the Imaskari used actually something tied to the tablets of fate. In Abeir is there something akin to the godswall for all gods in existence. So, in that case, do the Mulhorandi gods and Bahamut have to physically go there as manifestations amongst their people (and did they end up doing so after the spellplague)?
If this is the case (that manifestations of the Mulhorandi deities appear on Abeir, but they're normal gods on Toril again), it might be that the Mulhorandi and Untherites might actually control some of those portals that spring up between the two. Personally, I'd have it that the avatars of these deities cannot traverse through these portals, and as a result the high priests would need to relay information to their deity on each side. They may be trying to hide the fact that the gods are split from the people.... and this could cause schism's within the Mulhorandi faith. For instance, some may be very disturbed by the fact that their god on Toril doesn't know what's going on with them when they're WITH their god on Abeir. If this is the case, some may think that the gods from the Faerunian Pantheon are alias'ing themselves as the old Mulhorandi deities (and maybe they're right). Then, a schism breaks out, and some of the Mulhorandi decide they want to go "home" to Abeir. It becomes viewed by the people on each side that the people on the other are heretics, and after some time the portals are again guarded between these two different sects of Mulhorandi. Since very few would actually interact with the manifestations themselves AND be moving back and forth between worlds, it could easily take a while for this type of thing to actually be realized.
Another take on this might be that again manifestations were required in Abeir, and they still are required. The people come back to Mulhorand... and their manifestations come with them. With the tablets of fate restored, Ao has placed the "godswall" back into place around the crystal sphere. Now, Abeir, which had had a century to discover gods (granted in physical form... similar to primordials) cries out for their lost deities. Do the Egyptian and Babylonian gods send the galley of the gods to Abeir with another set of manifestations? |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 25 Aug 2012 : 18:20:29
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The Red Wizards 'setting up shop' in old Unther has possibilities. It ties into past lore, brings 'old Thay' back, and doesn't give us a cheesy 're-do' of 1e/2e/3e ("Hey look everybody! Thay is back!" Its magic!"). I like it - it moves them a bit more west as well, but still keeping just on the border of 'the Heartlands'. That idea may have some traction... WotC take note.
Not sure what to do with 'old Thay', though. I like the idea of keeping the uppermost Plateau a 'no-mans land', but then what to do about the rest? If they don't move the Red Wizards down to Unther (and there is no reason why we should think that as of now), then that region being a major story arc (adventure path) is perfect. The fact that it is an 'evil' group trying to save/restore the land just adds an extra hook to the whole thing (picture Thayan ex-patriates trying to retake their land one farm at a time, destroying undead and fiends as they move forward, and hiring adventurers to do some of their 'dirty work' - it sounds pretty awesome, actually).
On the other hand, if they stick them somewhere else (like Unther), then something else should be trying to 'cleanse' the land in 5e. Bring back the centaur states? (they used to control that entire region). It might be worthwhile for WotC to keep this one region 'dark and squishy' for those gamers that want a little Cthulhuesque action for a change of pace. I'm picturing a warzone-like front encircling Thay, where parties can travel inward and obtain certain quest goals - its actually a fairly common mechanic in MORPs.
Genasi - This one is going to hurt, buuuuut.. they shouldn't get rid of them. I think having them have a major presence in Calimshan might be the best solution. I don't want them having Arkanul anymore (for several reasons) - that group should break-up in 5e and become 'wanderers' (explaining all the Genasi PCs). However, the Caishite Genasi is a good way of fixing a problem we've had for quite some time - the redundancy of Calimshan (and other places) with Zakhara.
This might go against the grain of many of us here (and it rubs me the wrong way as well), but we really need to get rid of a bunch of the 'Middle-Eastern' flavored regions that are spread all over the place. As a fan of The Forgotten Realms, my first thought is to remove Zakhara. However, as a cartographer and just plain logical person, Zakhara makes far more sense then Calimshan. Don't get me wrong - I love everything Steven Schend did with the Lands of Intrigue, but Zakhara/Al-Qadim kinda made it all redundant, which is a damn shame.
I'm not saying get rid of it, but the Genasi might be the shot-in-the-arm Calimshan needs to differentiate it from the more traditional Arabian fantasy of Zakhara. Maybe even turn Calimshan into an Elemental theocracy. In that way, we can keep all of calimshan's 'glorious history', but move it forward in a new direction. Perhaps they do not allow normal magic there - only forms of elemental magic. If you wrap that up in a religion (Elemental priests, similar to K-T's Shukeja), it might be a winner.
As for the 'ancient and crusty empire' vibe, I'd say give that back to the Old Empires - it felt right there (which is why I want them back, despite the derivativeness).
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"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 25 Aug 2012 18:22:15 |
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Mournblade
Master of Realmslore
USA
1288 Posts |
Posted - 25 Aug 2012 : 18:47:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
The Red Wizards 'setting up shop' in old Unther has possibilities. It ties into past lore, brings 'old Thay' back, and doesn't give us a cheesy 're-do' of 1e/2e/3e ("Hey look everybody! Thay is back!" Its magic!"). I like it - it moves them a bit more west as well, but still keeping just on the border of 'the Heartlands'. That idea may have some traction... WotC take note.
Not sure what to do with 'old Thay', though. I like the idea of keeping the uppermost Plateau a 'no-mans land', but then what to do about the rest? If they don't move the Red Wizards down to Unther (and there is no reason why we should think that as of now), then that region being a major story arc (adventure path) is perfect. The fact that it is an 'evil' group trying to save/restore the land just adds an extra hook to the whole thing (picture Thayan ex-patriates trying to retake their land one farm at a time, destroying undead and fiends as they move forward, and hiring adventurers to do some of their 'dirty work' - it sounds pretty awesome, actually).
On the other hand, if they stick them somewhere else (like Unther), then something else should be trying to 'cleanse' the land in 5e. Bring back the centaur states? (they used to control that entire region). It might be worthwhile for WotC to keep this one region 'dark and squishy' for those gamers that want a little Cthulhuesque action for a change of pace. I'm picturing a warzone-like front encircling Thay, where parties can travel inward and obtain certain quest goals - its actually a fairly common mechanic in MORPs.
Genasi - This one is going to hurt, buuuuut.. they shouldn't get rid of them. I think having them have a major presence in Calimshan might be the best solution. I don't want them having Arkanul anymore (for several reasons) - that group should break-up in 5e and become 'wanderers' (explaining all the Genasi PCs). However, the Caishite Genasi is a good way of fixing a problem we've had for quite some time - the redundancy of Calimshan (and other places) with Zakhara.
This might go against the grain of many of us here (and it rubs me the wrong way as well), but we really need to get rid of a bunch of the 'Middle-Eastern' flavored regions that are spread all over the place. As a fan of The Forgotten Realms, my first thought is to remove Zakhara. However, as a cartographer and just plain logical person, Zakhara makes far more sense then Calimshan. Don't get me wrong - I love everything Steven Schend did with the Lands of Intrigue, but Zakhara/Al-Qadim kinda made it all redundant, which is a damn shame.
I'm not saying get rid of it, but the Genasi might be the shot-in-the-arm Calimshan needs to differentiate it from the more traditional Arabian fantasy of Zakhara. Maybe even turn Calimshan into an Elemental theocracy. In that way, we can keep all of calimshan's 'glorious history', but move it forward in a new direction. Perhaps they do not allow normal magic there - only forms of elemental magic. If you wrap that up in a religion (Elemental priests, similar to K-T's Shukeja), it might be a winner.
As for the 'ancient and crusty empire' vibe, I'd say give that back to the Old Empires - it felt right there (which is why I want them back, despite the derivativeness).
I've felt that way for a while. When I get the middle eastern itch I set campaigns in Zakhara. I did that for the Legacy of Fire AP. Sadly I did not get through it, I only made it too the second installment.
I think Calimshan works better as the realm conquered by Genies.
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A wizard is Never late Frodo Baggins. Nor is he Early. A wizard arrives precisely when he means to... |
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deserk
Learned Scribe
Norway
239 Posts |
Posted - 25 Aug 2012 : 19:35:28
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Until the day Zakhara and Kara-Tur are officially 100% complete proper parts of the Forgotten Realms setting (and this means a lot of oversight by Ed Greenwood, to ensure less blatant copy-pasting of cultures), I don't really want to see Calimshan gone Genasi nor the "Near Eastern" flavoured nations removed. This would also destroy a lot of cultural human diversity in Faerun.
I found it SO silly as it's written in 4E FRCS that apparently loads of Calishites were actually Genasi (for some mysterious reason they were hiding their human identity in previous editions all along?). I mean, is Artemis Entreri supposedly a Genasi, now?
Zakhara and Kara-Tur have always been the quite unpopular places compared to Faerun, and I think it's because they don't feel Realmsian at all and aren't really original, so FR fans don't bother with it. Kara-Tur is ridiculously almost exactly like medieval Asia, just with different names and in a world with magic. Both Zakhara and Kara-Tur doesn't seem to intertwine much with the events happening in the Realms at all (Zakhara, significantly much less so).
I think Pathfinder did a really good job with it's Asian equivalent continent. The map of it, didn't look anyway directly like Asia (which Kara-Tur does imo). It was more original, they had plenty of different feeling countries that weren't blatantly too much like either Mongols, Chinese, Japanese, etc. Some were obviously inspired by said RL cultures, but there were also plenty of unique nation concepts and plenty of demihuman countries. And my big issue with Kara-Tur is that it's far, far too RL inspired that it breaks immersion that this is some different world. |
Edited by - deserk on 25 Aug 2012 19:41:11 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 25 Aug 2012 : 20:59:04
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Zakhara really shouldn't be given the same sort of resentment Maztica and K-T get - it was far less a derivation and much more an homage to Arabian fantasy, and very well done.
I do realize it was a shoe-horn, but out of all of them, I think its the one that works the best, and is easy to incorporate in FR's history. In fact, I would love to re-visit my 'history of the world' and then send it off to the CORE team and have it corrected/whatever to fit 5eFR stated goal of 'lore by consensus'. I'd rather see Maztica, Kara-Tur, and Zakhara history better integrated, then have them just tossed out. Thats the design-approach we saw in 4e, and it was a BIG mistake. Lets not throw the baby out with the bath-water again.
Also, 'recessive elemental genes' fits in very well with Calimshan's history. In fact, we could take the term 'Dgen' to be an old Zakharan term for genie-blooded, and it would all work. If something similar happened to the Tieflings (at least, some Teflings), then it makes sense the spellplague also activated these types of 'magical bloodlines' in other crossbreed descendents. The Spellplague really wasn't all that bad - its actually and excellent mechanic to explain change. it was just poorly presented/represented. You couple it with Abeir and you have an in-game explanation to explain-away any edition change you want (so long as its done in a logical and respective-of-former-canon manner).
If you build a crappy house, don't blame the hammer and nails. Blame the builders. The tools are still good ones, and we should use them to make FR the best setting it has ever been.
At this time, I'd like to take a little poll - how many people absolutely hate the Primordials? I happen to like them, but I realize that many people don't. I have no idea what wotC plans on doing with them, but maybe if we got a 'show of hands' they'd at least have some groundwork. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 25 Aug 2012 21:00:19 |
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The Red Walker
Great Reader
USA
3567 Posts |
Posted - 25 Aug 2012 : 21:08:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Zakhara really shouldn't be given the same sort of resentment Maztica and K-T get - it was far less a derivation and much more an homage to Arabian fantasy, and very well done.
I do realize it was a shoe-horn, but out of all of them, I think its the one that works the best, and is easy to incorporate in FR's history. In fact, I would love to re-visit my 'history of the world' and then send it off to the CORE team and have it corrected/whatever to fit 5eFR stated goal of 'lore by consensus'. I'd rather see Maztica, Kara-Tur, and Zakhara history better integrated, then have them just tossed out. Thats the design-approach we saw in 4e, and it was a BIG mistake. Lets not throw the baby out with the bath-water again.
Also, 'recessive elemental genes' fits in very well with Calimshan's history. In fact, we could take the term 'Dgen' to be an old Zakharan term for genie-blooded, and it would all work. If something similar happened to the Tieflings (at least, some Teflings), then it makes sense the spellplague also activated these types of 'magical bloodlines' in other crossbreed descendents. The Spellplague really wasn't all that bad - its actually and excellent mechanic to explain change. it was just poorly presented/represented. You couple it with Abeir and you have an in-game explanation to explain-away any edition change you want (so long as its done in a logical and respective-of-former-canon manner).
If you build a crappy house, don't blame the hammer and nails. Blame the builders. The tools are still good ones, and we should use them to make FR the best setting it has ever been.
At this time, I'd like to take a little poll - how many people absolutely hate the Primordials? I happen to like them, but I realize that many people don't. I have no idea what wotC plans on doing with them, but maybe if we got a 'show of hands' they'd at least have some groundwork.
I like Kossuth...the rest can leave with Abeir. |
A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka
"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -
John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
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Derulbaskul
Senior Scribe
Singapore
408 Posts |
Posted - 26 Aug 2012 : 07:18:01
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I know I'm the odd one out here but I am happy to continue playing in the 4E Realms (I just wish it had a map that didn't totally suck).
I've been running the Realms since the OGB and have strived to keep my games in line with canon, only removing those things I really dislike. I'm happy with the 4E version despite the wiping out of so much that has gone before because I can - and do - use previous lore to inform my design choices.
The loss of deities is simply an opportunity to have campaigns involving bringing them back. The loss of Mulhorand is an excuse to have it play the same role as Ancient Egypt in pulp serials and movies. The loss of beloved NPCs has no effect: I didn't use them generally speaking anyway.
My sincere hope for the Next version was a reset to pre-Spellplague, whether that be the OGB, Ed's version coming later this year or 1375 DR after the reclamation of Myth Drannor and the Rage of Dragons. I thought that this sort of reset would be better received by the diehard/long-term FR fans.
At least for the next two years I plan to stay in the 4E version of the Realms. I like them, our group feels at home there, and we --love-- the 4E ruleset. We've played together since 1E and this is our favourite version of the rules (and Next continues to look like a fantasy heartbreaker).
No matter what, I want the Realms (and D&D Next) to do well in its next incarnation and I will continue to collect FR products even if they're not from my preferred era or version. |
Cheers
D
NB: Please remember: A cannon is a big gun. Canon is what we discuss here. |
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combatmedic
Senior Scribe
USA
428 Posts |
Posted - 26 Aug 2012 : 07:18:10
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There are some great ideas in the newest version of FR, but some stuff just doesn’t work for me.
Let’s run down the big stuff first.
• 100 year leap:
Given everything else they changed, it makes perfect sense. I see the advtanage in moving past a lot of the accumulated canon plots and NPcs. More on this much later in the post…
• Spellplague and Mystra’s death:
It goes a long way towards explaining the pretty significant changes in the way magic works in 4E. It also spins off the wild magic and dead magic zones ideas, building something new. Kills a bunch of really potent spell casters, which is fine by me—FR had too many of those guys.
I don’t know the particulars of how Cyric and Shar managed to kill Mystra. I understand that some people find the details implausible. Without more info, I can’t really comment.
• Other gods dying:
I don’t like what they did with Helm and Tyr. Sorry, I just don’t buy the whole love triangle and duel thing. It seems forced and out of character. I would not use it if I ran a game using 4E FR.
Azuth getting gobbled up by Asmodeus is kind of interesting. I’m not sure why they did it, though, unless they just felt that Asmodeus had to be in the setting. Why not the other 4E gods, then?
• Gods turning out to be aspects of other gods:
The basic idea is fine, but they did more of it than I’d have done. Some of it felt forced. Realms already had regional names and aspects: Melith (if he is Milil, that is), The Earthmother, Kazgoroth the Beast, the Adama, Anachtyr, etc. They could have simply done more of that.
• Exarchs:
The idea is sensible and not really new, but the nomenclature is bizarre. I never understood why an East Roman title was used for what are essentially just demigods or lesser deities. I keep thinking of the Exarch of Ravenna. Do the gods all dress in ‘Byzantine’ court robes? Is Ao the heavenly Autocrat?
This gives me some ideas for Chessenta…
• Cosmology shift:
This change is really easy to ignore unless you are running high level, plane hopping type adventures. I see why they wanted to make things line up better with the default 4E cosmology. That makes it easier for new guys who came in with 4E and are used to the way the planes are assumed to work in that rules set.
I like the Great Tree. I’d have kept that. Gotta have the Nine Hells, though. Greenwood’s articles on the Hells are solid gold.
• Returned Abeir:
My biggest problem with this one is somewhat pedantic. Abeir Toril means “cradle of life.” That is the very first entry in the Cyclopedia, for goodness sakes. I don’t like that this old and cool canon lore was ignored, and Abeir was introduced as a separate planet.
I’m okay with the ‘When Worlds Collide’ idea. I likely wouldn’t have blown up or transposed quite as many parts of Faerun, but I would have used the returned Abeir stuff even more heavily outside Faerun.
Does anybody know how Abeir fits in with Realsmpace? Did they retcon out all the Spelljammer stuff? I’m not heavily invested in SJ, so this isn’t a complaint. I’m just curious.
Now, on to other geographical and political stuff:
• Halruua blown up. Cool. I like the Five Companies.
• Sembia conquered by Shade; it’s not my cup of tea, but a Sembian Revolution and a restored republic afterward would be cool in 5E.
• Luiren sinking and Var no more. Cool by me. Diving for sunken treasure!
• Dambrath revolution with Crinti out of power. I like it, at least from what little I know of it.
• Return of ancient imperial civilizations- I rather liked these things being deeper in the background. It’s not a deal breaker for me, though.
In regards to NPCs, the dead and the living:
• Why didn’t they just go ahead and kill Elminster? It would have made a lot more sense. If the massive setting changes were meant to clear the floor for fans that dislike the scads of meddlesome ultra-high powered NPCs and complex metaplot, then they should have started at the top.
They should have whacked all the Chosen and the Seven Sisters, too. Go whole hog.
• Mirt the Moneylender gets saved by some sort of tricky Greenwood moves. Whoa, I didn’t know about this one. Till I read a previous poster’s comments. You know what—I’m cool with it.
Mirt sounds like a really fun NPC. A creak, wheezy fat old fighter , like Sir John Falstaff but with moneybags? That’s great stuff! I’m not saying all heads should have rolled. If I had a choice between saving Mirt and Eliminster, Mirt would win, no contest.
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YMMV= Your Mileage May Vary. I'm putting it here so I don't have to type it in every other post. :) |
Edited by - combatmedic on 26 Aug 2012 07:22:42 |
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Mournblade
Master of Realmslore
USA
1288 Posts |
Posted - 26 Aug 2012 : 18:00:56
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quote:
Originally posted by deserk
I found it SO silly as it's written in 4E FRCS that apparently loads of Calishites were actually Genasi (for some mysterious reason they were hiding their human identity in previous editions all along?). I mean, is Artemis Entreri supposedly a Genasi, now?
That was common throughout the 4e realms. That is what happens when you build a world story to cover mechanics instead of making it a logical outgrowing from what came before.
I think they are getting it right this time around.
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A wizard is Never late Frodo Baggins. Nor is he Early. A wizard arrives precisely when he means to... |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 26 Aug 2012 : 18:35:14
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But it would have taken almost no effort at all to ground of a lot of those things in prior lore.
For instance (as I said above), all they had to do is say the term 'Dgen' (created by Steven Schend) meant 'elemental blooded', which was used to describe the 'genie folk' who came to Calimshan (presumably from Zakhara). That one tweak would have rooted it all in old lore. This 'opportunity missed' is similar to what they did - or didn't do - in 3e; the sorcerers could have been so much better (and were taken to their full potential in Pathfinder).
Ergo, I reiterate, it wasn't really the lore itself that was so bad, it was the lackluster way it was all presented - there was almost no effort behind any of it. The map sucked, the FRCS was bland, the rules were too mechanical, & the century time-jump was a complete disconnect. It didn't matter what the lore itself was - it was doomed from the start. There just wasn't anything there to pull old fans into the setting, and not enough to attract enough new fans to have made the experiment worthwhile. The big 'miss' with 4e was presentation, across the board (right down to an almost gleeful way certain designers described nuking the old setting in some podcasts). To some of us, it was like a punch in the stomach.
From what I understand, from the seminars, they plan to take the best parts of 4e (and some of the lore itself was pretty nifty) and blend it seamlessly with older lore, to create a new edition that will work for everyone. This is a completely different approach then last time, and judging by the assembled team ("Avengers, Assemble!") they know exactly what we want this time out. I trust the guys they have making these decisions now.
So far only one person answered my primordials question - anyone else want to add their two cents about them? |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 26 Aug 2012 18:36:57 |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3823 Posts |
Posted - 26 Aug 2012 : 19:14:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
So far only one person answered my primordials question - anyone else want to add their two cents about them?
It's not clear to me how the Primordials exactly differ from deities. They look much like gods of ''raw'' concepts, like elements, chaos, entropy and things along these lines, opposed to the Faerunian Pantheons, whose members stand for concepts tied to mortals (ideas -like emotions- or activities, or places, races etc...). So, as I see it, there's no real distinction between the two categories, save for the fact that Primordials live in the inner planes (or elemental chaos, or whatever).
IMO they are not necessary, but I'm not bothered by them.
EDIT: spelling. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 26 Aug 2012 23:22:52 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36968 Posts |
Posted - 26 Aug 2012 : 20:20:45
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| I don't like primordials. We have deities already. Why is there a need for something that walks like a deity, looks like a deity, quacks like a deity, but is something else entirely? |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
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deserk
Learned Scribe
Norway
239 Posts |
Posted - 26 Aug 2012 : 21:20:53
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| I've liked Akadi, Kossuth, Istishia and Grumbar as FR deities. I don't really look much into the primordial aspect thing of 4E. |
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Ryan
Acolyte
USA
7 Posts |
Posted - 27 Aug 2012 : 00:33:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I don't like primordials. We have deities already. Why is there a need for something that walks like a deity, looks like a deity, quacks like a deity, but is something else entirely?
I think the draw to primo's is that they are(the idea of them, imo) alien by comparison to the deities. They dont act, think, or react the same as the others and have not become waht they are like the others. They are more likened to be the fores of nature given thought.
At least, that is how they are interesting to me if written correctly. |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6688 Posts |
Posted - 27 Aug 2012 : 01:40:23
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I'm also not a fan of the Primordial bandwagon that got up and running for 4E. A Bazim-Gorag here and there is fine, but to have many and significant links back to the primords, in my view gives the Realms a "part of Planescape"-rationalisation that isn't in keeping with how the Realms and the planes were portrayed in the original FR source material. To be clear and as an example, I don't give a fig about what Planescape says about the Nine Hells - I simply look at Ed's Dragon magazine articles and know exactly what a Forgotten Realms adventure dealing with devils would look like.
-- George Krashos
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"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Old Man Harpell
Senior Scribe
USA
498 Posts |
Posted - 27 Aug 2012 : 01:43:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Ergo, I reiterate, it wasn't really the lore itself that was so bad, it was the lackluster way it was all presented - there was almost no effort behind any of it. The map sucked, the FRCS was bland, the rules were too mechanical, & the century time-jump was a complete disconnect. It didn't matter what the lore itself was - it was doomed from the start. There just wasn't anything there to pull old fans into the setting, and not enough to attract enough new fans to have made the experiment worthwhile. The big 'miss' with 4e was presentation, across the board (right down to an almost gleeful way certain designers described nuking the old setting in some podcasts). To some of us, it was like a punch in the stomach.
This is a good way of describing it. It wasn't just an isolated incident or two - it was everywhere. It was what I have come to call 'Wastelands and Beastlands'. Calimshan, the Shaar, Dambrath, Halruaa (to name but a very few)...Wastelands and Beastlands. The same boring, pointless thing, over and over and over. There was no original take, no refreshing newness to it. It was a nuked, scarred post-apocalypse world.
I didn't mind the 'humans suddenly finding out about their hidden genasi heritage' angle - that sort of gives it a bit of character and gives it some distinctiveness. What I resented was the complete trashing of Calimshan into just another boring, ill-conceived, pointless rendering into yet more Wastelands and Beastlands. The whole Calim-versus-Memnon war excuse was contrived and wholly uninteresting. I'm glad it's going away. Keep the genasi angle, by all means, yes...but the rest should go away. The rest needs to go away.
quote:
From what I understand, from the seminars, they plan to take the best parts of 4e (and some of the lore itself was pretty nifty) and blend it seamlessly with older lore, to create a new edition that will work for everyone. This is a completely different approach then last time, and judging by the assembled team ("Avengers, Assemble!") they know exactly what we want this time out. I trust the guys they have making these decisions now.
I hope you're right, Markus. I'm optimistic about it, and being a completist, I'll be buying it regardless (I bought the 4th Edition stuff, after all, though I've halted the campaign I'm running until 5th comes out, and will never use 4th Edition again, except for the Neverwinter material, perhaps), but the potential for them to make another nasty mistake is still there. I like what I've heard so far, and I see nothing to actually criticize at this point. I am really, really hopeful that their 5th Edition offering will put the final coffin nails on the Edition Wars.
As to primordials...eh. I don't see the point. I like the way Everquest treats them - essentially gods with an over-arcing elemental focus, the sources of power from which all other deities draw their power. Thus Fennin Ro is described as the primordial who 'personifies' Fire, while his children utilize that power to fuel their own unique 'portfolios' (Solusek Ro being the god of flame, Druzzil Ro being the goddess of magic, and so on) - the Norrathian 'schtick', if you will. The way that primordials are described in FR, while not bad, seems more than a bit redundant to me.
- OMH |
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The Red Walker
Great Reader
USA
3567 Posts |
Posted - 27 Aug 2012 : 03:15:19
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| I really hope Halruaa is back in a big way. With the zulkirs on the ropes, it's the best chance I see for a powerful magic based kingdom, the way I like to see them. I loved some of the ask Ed scrolls that pertained to Halruaa....all that magic, used in ways out in the realms have never seen.....but aloof from the world and didn't interfere with most of the realms,unless you wanted them to of course! |
A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka
"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -
John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
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Edited by - The Red Walker on 27 Aug 2012 05:25:37 |
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archmagestar
Acolyte
USA
14 Posts |
Posted - 27 Aug 2012 : 05:20:11
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| Dislikes about 4th? EVERYTHING! For me the Realms died when Mystra died. The Spell Plague was a horrible idea and the timeline jump was ridiculous. Ive grown up playing D&D and with every new addition it seems to get more like Traveler and less like the fantasy game I loved. I bought a 4th book from Amazon and immediatly got rid of it. Its time to get back to what made the Realms work; the fantasy and adventure, and cut the pre made stat junk and confusing descriptions. Huh? What? Why? |
Forgotten Realms Junkie |
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Ryan
Acolyte
USA
7 Posts |
Posted - 27 Aug 2012 : 06:02:38
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quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
I'm also not a fan of the Primordial bandwagon that got up and running for 4E. A Bazim-Gorag here and there is fine, but to have many and significant links back to the primords, in my view gives the Realms a "part of Planescape"-rationalisation that isn't in keeping with how the Realms and the planes were portrayed in the original FR source material. To be clear and as an example, I don't give a fig about what Planescape says about the Nine Hells - I simply look at Ed's Dragon magazine articles and know exactly what a Forgotten Realms adventure dealing with devils would look like.
-- George Krashos
Ya, I def think they went way to far with the primo stuff... I liked it because they were unique in teh setting(as in small amount of them). Now it is less about something alien and now feels more about different factions then a different existence.
1 Primo for each of the elemental types and what not and that is all that is needed, imo. |
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Ryan
Acolyte
USA
7 Posts |
Posted - 27 Aug 2012 : 06:03:42
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quote:
Originally posted by archmagestar
Dislikes about 4th? EVERYTHING! For me the Realms died when Mystra died. The Spell Plague was a horrible idea and the timeline jump was ridiculous. Ive grown up playing D&D and with every new addition it seems to get more like Traveler and less like the fantasy game I loved. I bought a 4th book from Amazon and immediatly got rid of it. Its time to get back to what made the Realms work; the fantasy and adventure, and cut the pre made stat junk and confusing descriptions. Huh? What? Why?
Eh, I liked RA's books in the 4E stuff. I mean, 4E is def my least favorite, but I dont think everything in it was horrible, I think that is a bit dramatic(udnerstandable, since people become so attached). |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 27 Aug 2012 : 06:10:17
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IMO, the gods vs. primordials thing is very similar to the Greek mythology of gods vs. titans. The only real similarity between them is that they are both extremely powerful, but whereas gods are morally-focused like mortals (i.e. sentient and take morally significant action), titans represent more primal forces of creation and destruction. Same thing with gods and primordials.
I myself am perfectly happy to have Toril ruled by the gods (with a couple of primordials here and there, such as the elemental princes) and Abeir ruled by the primordials (with a couple of gods here and there, maybe).
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Mournblade
Master of Realmslore
USA
1288 Posts |
Posted - 27 Aug 2012 : 07:20:07
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quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
So far only one person answered my primordials question - anyone else want to add their two cents about them?
It's not clear to me how the Primordials exactly differ from deities. They look much like gods of ''raw'' concepts, like elements, chaos, entropy and things along these lines, opposed to the Faerunian Pantheons, whose members stand for concepts tied to mortals (ideas -like emotions- or activities, or places, races etc...). So, as I see it, there's no real distinction between the two categories, save for the fact that Primordials live in the inner planes (or elemental chaos, or whatever).
IMO they are not necessary, but I'm not bothered by them.
EDIT: spelling.
I'd like to forget the whole primordials thing entirely. Leave it for Abeir in a completely separate source book. The 'everything is core' dawn war should just be left completely out of Forgotten Realms lore.
Their fix for the clumsy addition of Abeir is interesting now at least, and I can get behind the story James Wyatt told at the Gencon Panel. I just hope all the Abeir items are left off of the toril map and in its own print book to make sure that Toril receives the attention.
I don't need information about ANOTHER campaign world in any books dedicated to the Forgotten Realms. Use the Forgotten Realms label to sell the Abeir campaign world, but make it clear so that those that don't need Abeir lore anymore than they need Eberron lore won't feel it necessary to complete their Realms collection. |
A wizard is Never late Frodo Baggins. Nor is he Early. A wizard arrives precisely when he means to... |
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Ryan
Acolyte
USA
7 Posts |
Posted - 27 Aug 2012 : 08:05:46
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I ahve a thought, probably a dumb one, but here it goes.
With all the FR "era's" there normally is a massive event that give us the excuse to change stuff... what about if this time it was a "break in time" that ripped people/gods/lands and ect from other time periods and put them in the "main" timeline, while also ripping people/lands/gods in this current timeline to others? This would allow you to save taht which was lost or that was considered of worth, and add some dynamics to the setting like, what thought to be dead gods taht are wanted(like Myrkul or Mystra)and rip them to the "now" and also allow it to send people/items/lands back in time or forward in time as well(would allow you to give even more insight to pre-human history and what not through books and ect). Instead of creating even more characters or creating even mroe gods and more lands, use something like this to not only get what we want from other era's but also to add something interesting in the setting as well.
Forgotten Realms is old, very old, with a lot of rich history, and using something like a time shatter or sunder or whatever, I would think, would give a lot of potential to resurrect some things that shouldnt have died or are better off coming back. This would also allow you to create "broken pockets in time" that are protected by some clerics or followers or whatevers of deities that are in charge of things like time/knowledge and ect. I would think it would be pretty cool to be able to setup a game, where my party found a broken time pocket that sends us back to places that no human has ever seen before or some such in the realms.
Would add a lot of customizablility, but would also "repair" the damages from the spellplague(literally and figuratively) and allow people, more freely and without ignoring the current era's while still being able to play in their era of choice. Obviously there are a lot of logistics going this route, but imo, it would work well and allow the ability to take what we liked from one era and apply it to another(and also play in those "other" era's). I mean, it might make orginizing new books a bit messy, but it also wouldnt retcon anything either. |
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combatmedic
Senior Scribe
USA
428 Posts |
Posted - 27 Aug 2012 : 08:57:53
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I think of the primordials as being sort of like the Titans, or maybe like AD&D archomentals.
I'm fine with that.
Maybe calling them Elemental Rulers or Primal Titans would have been better? |
YMMV= Your Mileage May Vary. I'm putting it here so I don't have to type it in every other post. :) |
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 27 Aug 2012 : 17:06:48
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| I like that there's primordials, archfey, nature spirits and similar. Not all powerful beings in the multiverse would want to be worshipped. Titans are limited to one mythology. |
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Mournblade
Master of Realmslore
USA
1288 Posts |
Posted - 27 Aug 2012 : 17:30:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Ryan
I ahve a thought, probably a dumb one, but here it goes.
With all the FR "era's" there normally is a massive event that give us the excuse to change stuff... what about if this time it was a "break in time" that ripped people/gods/lands and ect from other time periods and put them in the "main" timeline, while also ripping people/lands/gods in this current timeline to others? This would allow you to save taht which was lost or that was considered of worth, and add some dynamics to the setting like, what thought to be dead gods taht are wanted(like Myrkul or Mystra)and rip them to the "now" and also allow it to send people/items/lands back in time or forward in time as well(would allow you to give even more insight to pre-human history and what not through books and ect). Instead of creating even more characters or creating even mroe gods and more lands, use something like this to not only get what we want from other era's but also to add something interesting in the setting as well.
Forgotten Realms is old, very old, with a lot of rich history, and using something like a time shatter or sunder or whatever, I would think, would give a lot of potential to resurrect some things that shouldnt have died or are better off coming back. This would also allow you to create "broken pockets in time" that are protected by some clerics or followers or whatevers of deities that are in charge of things like time/knowledge and ect. I would think it would be pretty cool to be able to setup a game, where my party found a broken time pocket that sends us back to places that no human has ever seen before or some such in the realms.
Would add a lot of customizablility, but would also "repair" the damages from the spellplague(literally and figuratively) and allow people, more freely and without ignoring the current era's while still being able to play in their era of choice. Obviously there are a lot of logistics going this route, but imo, it would work well and allow the ability to take what we liked from one era and apply it to another(and also play in those "other" era's). I mean, it might make orginizing new books a bit messy, but it also wouldnt retcon anything either.
According to the sundering panel, they discussed this option as well as a reboot like Star Trek, and determined it would not work. Despite the mistakes with 4e realms, I am putting faith in the direction which I think is well placed.
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A wizard is Never late Frodo Baggins. Nor is he Early. A wizard arrives precisely when he means to... |
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Likes/Dislikes of 4E Realms, Wish List for 5E
