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Originally posted by Markustay

Sorry Red Walker - that was a knee-jerk reaction.

I had gotten a three-day ban on the WotC once for making 'racist' comments, when all I was trying to do was point-out how the 4e treatment of Mezro (Chult) looked. In that case, I purposely used provocative terminology, so I suppose the banning was in order (although I still find it amusing I was banned for the exact reason I was accusing them of).

Anyhow, I really should always take at least a 5-minute break before I hit 'post' - I find that helps immensely. Apologies all around.

Back on-topic: How about we use this? What if the 3e Dragonborn were the ones joining the Cult, and that sparks an internal race war amongst the two branches of Dragonkind? That could get interesting. As for any canon that says it was specifically the Tymanther DB, thats easy to sweep under the carpet. After all, they all look alike to us.

(and yes, that time I did it on-purpose)

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Originally posted by Bladewind


In the Realms I have a similar dislike for other, superfantastical creature races like Warforged, Shardminds and Wilden. They lack the history that ties most player races to the history of the Realms.

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Originally posted by Bladewind

I would love to see Dragonborn ousted to Abeir. I had the most problem with their numbers; if they are extremely rare I can accept their inclusion. But all in all I couldn't wrap my head around seeing a dragonborn merchant peddling his wares in a Cormyrean city. It just doesn't fit my image of the Realms.

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Originally posted by Dark Wizard

In general, if you put in a story hook, you want it meaty enough to clearly represent the idea, not something that appears like a throwaway line that's a mismatch with established lore. The hook should not be the existence of a contradiction, those could be a dime a dozen. It should be the reason for the contradiction. That's good design, putting forth ideas that tie together separate things, ideas that get the imagination going.

I think the problem might also be painting certain aspects of the 4E Realms in broad, overreaching strokes. "All Dragonborn hate dragons." Instead of clearly relaying "Some Dragonborn hate dragons because..." "but others are okay with them." The latter opens up choices for both DMs and plaers. Here, however, the big slogan does stick in our heads, Dragonborn hate dragons. I can only hope the designers meant to do this right.

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Originally posted by The Red Walker

On your last topic...why sweep it under the carpet at all , just tarnish the messenger.

One thing we've learned about here is how unreliable some of theses sources that we base "realms truth" on are

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Originally posted by Bladewind

To make dragonborn work as a PC race their numbers should be high, enough to get the odd PC coming forth from their masses. Otherwise they lack the natural demographics of the other races and are comparativly too strong on average.

The odd thing is, I actually like the other new race, the Genasi, that swapped into the Realms alot. Abeir and its coterminous planar concepts I actually like alot too, but dragonborn just rub me wrong.

Just the fact that a fellow player might join the table as a dragonborn makes me groan. I'm a bit old school / a bit of a grognard when concerned with racial composition of an adventuring party. I like the 'oddball' races in a party to be a little mysterious, like how elves, dwarves and gnomes were in older editions. I just feel the mystery around dragonborn is lacking.

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1374 DR Year of Lightning Storms
Faerūn is beset by great lightning strikes the length and breadth of the continent. At least some of those lightning strikes mark the impact points of an unusual year-long rain of meteors. In a series of visions, Bahamut and Tiamat instruct their respective followers to seek out such sites, for each contains some form of draconic egg within.

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Originally posted by Bladewind

The odd thing is, I actually like the other new race, the Genasi, that swapped into the Realms alot. Abeir and its coterminous planar concepts I actually like alot too, but dragonborn just rub me wrong.

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Genasi are not a new race. The neon-looking ones that exist in large numbers are new to the setting, but genasi have been in the Realms longer. The race dates back to 2E, and was in the Realms from 3E.

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Originally posted by Markustay


@Venger - I think we are all aware of that, and are just as confused as you. I have said time again 4e looks more like something created by a half-dozen individuals, rather then a consensus by committee. There seems to have been a 'bullet list' of things that had to be accomplished, and everyone involved did something different to make it happen. If 4eFR is guilty of anything, it's a very rough (unpolished) feel.

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Originally posted by Bladewind

But they are. The new genasi are quite a different breed from the more 'pure' elemental genasi of yore. I like their 'dual elemental soul' nature, largely because it fits the concepts around the Elemental Chaos, the 4e elemental plane where the elements chaotically mingle, very well.

Some ideas in the new planar lore I liked alot, and I see no reason why the old and new can't exist together anyway.

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Originally posted by Markustay

Yes, somehow these 'offshoots' of other races managed to become races in their own right on Abeir, and it is that phenomena I would like explored (because instead of being odd, it could prove very interesting).

Was something/someone actively encouraging/breeding mutations?

@Venger - I think we are all aware of that, and are just as confused as you. I have said time again 4e looks more like something created by a half-dozen individuals, rather then a consensus by committee. There seems to have been a 'bullet list' of things that had to be accomplished, and everyone involved did something different to make it happen. If 4eFR is guilty of anything, it's a very rough (unpolished) feel.

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Originally posted by Markustay

Najara was detailed in 3e's Serpent Kingdoms; I would not count it as a '4e' thing.

I personally liked the Warlock Knights of Vassa - a little more interesting then a 'cold and forbidding wasteland' which we already had in Icewind Dale and elsewhere. They need to get rid of all the redundancy, and some of the 4e lore can actually help with that.

I wouldn't mind a few compromises. For instance, how about if only the highest plateau of Thay remained undead/plateau of Leng? Give the Red Wizards back their (now even darker) realm, but have that uppermost plateau be an area even they dare not tread.

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Originally posted by Old Man Harpell

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Originally posted by Markustay
I wouldn't mind a few compromises. For instance, how about if only the highest plateau of Thay remained undead/plateau of Leng? Give the Red Wizards back their (now even darker) realm, but have that uppermost plateau be an area even they dare not tread.

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That is a superb idea. The 'Leng' comparison is especially good. Thay can be creepy without being a 'Dawn of the Dead' caricature. Removing the undead from other regions could have left a void filled by less obvious, but even weirder denizens.

Other compromises also could be simple enough. For example, Mulhorand - is Gheldeneth an anchor in the Realms that the Mulhorandi priests could use to bring their nation back? It's not like the Imaskari have actually done anything with their territory outside of Skyclave.

Unther is a bit trickier - if I recall correctly (and I may be misremembering), the wording made it sound like while Mulhorand simply vanished, Unther had a whole other land (Tymanther) land on it and literally erase it. Maybe certain sections of it were taken away when Mulhorand vanished? When Mulhorand returns, so do these bits of the Untheric nation, providing a definite (if reduced) return of this post-Gilgeam nation. And since Mulhorand would be occupied with a strong and definitely hostile Imaskari presence, that would provide the 'returned Unther' with at least a chance at survival.

5th Edition has a lot of potential. I know they can't please everyone, but I get the impression that they've 'figured it out', and know what needs to be done. For the first time in ages, I'm optimistic. Well, at least about the Realms.

- OMH

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Originally posted by Markustay


However, being no expert on 4e, I think I may have just made an inaccurate assumption regarding Tielfings. Aren't FR's 4e Tielfings supposed to be native? Or am I getting that wrong?

I recall a discussion on the WotC boards about how it could be possible the spellplague somehow activated recessive genes, mutating the 'normal' kind of Tiefling into the more fiendish looking ones. That conversation may have happened after the release of the "Wizards Presents" books, but before the actual release of 4e, so I can't recall what the actual canon was/is.

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Originally posted by Shemmy

Dislikes:
Most of it. Suffice to say if it replaced or retconned previous material, I wouldn't mourn its passing.

Likes:
I don't actually mind Dragonborn in the realms. They're the one thing that 4e developed (yeah technically they originated in late 3.x but not precisely the same critters) that I don't mind sticking around in some capacity.

5e wish-list:
A return to using the Great Wheel (or a modified Great Wheel) in some capacity as the assumed cosmology. They don't have to deal with it much, and that should probably be left for an actual Planescape campaign setting release (that I would do anything to get onto), but using the Great Wheel / classic D&D plane names and cosmological assumptions such as what outsider races there are, what they represent, etc should be there in the background.

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Originally posted by Markustay


@Venger - I think we are all aware of that, and are just as confused as you. I have said time again 4e looks more like something created by a half-dozen individuals, rather then a consensus by committee. There seems to have been a 'bullet list' of things that had to be accomplished, and everyone involved did something different to make it happen. If 4eFR is guilty of anything, it's a very rough (unpolished) feel.

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The culture and people of Thay, slaves and soldiers, Red Wizards and all, were what made Thay interesting. Now it's all a mostly undead waste with some skin'n'bones livestock stragglers united under Szass Tam in a boring mad lich hungry for mega-godhood persona. Previously he was far more subtle and all the more mysterious and menacing for it. Previously he was actually original and different for a lich (a relatively young lich, still with some human-level goals), now in the 4e era he's your stereoptyical, Vecna-wannabe, Sauron-lite villain. We had Velsharoon for that ... oh, wait. I guess they needed to rehash that plot line for a replacement...

Also, wouldn't something of this magnitude be great for a campaign. This is adventure path material, WotC. Take some notes from Paizo, a Thayvan Adventure Path would have been epic. Missed. Opportunity.

I agree with the suggestions of posters above, return some element of mainstream (non-undead, non-Tam-dominated) Thayvian peoples and cultures to the plateau. Otherwise, consider what sleyvas suggested, have some of the remaining Red Wizards found a new nation. Make it neutral (with evil tendencies) or evil (with neutral tendencies). Heck, do both, Old Thay and New Thay. Can't ask for more evocative adventuring potential.

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Originally posted by Markustay

I was just wondering why, on Abeir, these half-breed types sought-out others of their ilk and evolved into races, rather then just blend into one (or both) of their progenitor races. On Toril, 'blending in' seems to be the norm, but on Abeir, founding a separate, new species seems to have been the norm.

However, being no expert on 4e, I think I may have just made an inaccurate assumption regarding Tielfings. Aren't FR's 4e Tielfings supposed to be native? Or am I getting that wrong?

I recall a discussion on the WotC boards about how it could be possible the spellplague somehow activated recessive genes, mutating the 'normal' kind of Tiefling into the more fiendish looking ones. That conversation may have happened after the release of the "Wizards Presents" books, but before the actual release of 4e, so I can't recall what the actual canon was/is.

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Originally posted by Markustay

As for regions like Unther and Mulhorand (and to a lesser-extent K-T, Maztica, Zakhara, etc), I really don't want to see them brought back 'as is'. They have always needed a facelift, and this is a golden opportunity for Ed and others to "do them right". Don't throw away the 4e lore - use it to go back and fix the 'iffy' 1e/2e/3e lore. There is a golden opportunity to give us the Realms we have have always wanted - the Realms as Ed intended them to be. How many settings can do this - right past wrongs - and do it with an in-game explanation? Its pure win.

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Originally posted by Jeremy Grenemyer

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Originally posted by doctorbadwolf

You guys gonna axe Netheril and make Myth Drannor a ruin again, while you're at it?

At what point have you just shoved all forward movement in the setting out a window?


I'm sorry, but this just...this upsets me greatly. I won't edit it, but I will say...read with the understanding that I'm getting weary of recent events that seem a lot like over-corrections rather than steering back on course. I'm hoping this isn't such a case.

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Agreed.

I'd like WotC to keep the continent of Laerakond around and I don't mind the idea of Mulhorand and Unther returning...up to a point.

I think a re-swapping Tymanther and Akanul with Mulhorand and Unther wholesale and leaving behind a few genasi and dragonborn in the Realms as the only sign of those continents' time in the Realms is a bad idea.

Tymather and Akanul have done far more IMO to make that region of the Realms interesting and useful to gamers than Unther and Mulhorand ever did. The former have earned their place in the Realms while the later? Well, they may have been nice to read about but setting a Realms campaign there? No thanks.

Better the nations merge in some manner. I'd much rather aspects of each remain and let DMs and players decide which becomes dominant through WotC sponsored adventures.

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Originally posted by Gyor


I mean think about it, Mulhorand and Unther flipped the bible backwards. In the Bible Jews are enslaved and mistreated by Ancient Egypt and Bablyon, but in the end are divinely lead to the promise land after time in the desert. In Faerun its the Mulan who are kidnapped and,enslaved by a powerful empire. Moses...er Ra and the other Gods are sent by a higher power (In the case of the Mulan Ptah) to deliver thier,people. The oppossers are punished (Red Sea falling on ones head vs. Being driven into the Underdark). They must then journey through the desert to the promise land, where they create a new homeland. Mulhorand is Isreal and Unther is Judea. Its Egyptian and Babylonian sybolism, but Isreal's origin story, Realmsified. From there the story becames about being governed by Gods and the powerful Miracles. I mean to called it a Theocracy is an understatement, Theocracy's are government by Priests, this is government by ones Gods.

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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

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Originally posted by Diffan

Dragonborn and genasi didn't need a way to be added since they've already been there pre-Spellplague. The fact that they have centers of power is, to me, just icing on the cake. But I don't think I've ever made a Genasi from Akanūl, but I think it would be fun for my character to visit there.

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I don't see why dragonborn or genasi need a center of power...

3E dragonborn were individuals, born as something else, who decided to dedicate themselves to serving Bahamut. There prolly weren't enough of them in the Realms to fill a city block, much less have a need for a center of power.

And while 2E and 3E genasi were more common than that, they were still pretty rare -- far rarer than half-elves or half-orcs, who don't have a center of power.

I really hope 5E goes back to the 2E and 3E planetouched. I hate the "there's whole nations of them!" approach of 4E, and I also hate the "genasi are now neon, and you can spot a tiefling from 50 feet away in a dark room!" physical appearances.

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Originally posted by Venger

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The fact that something like this sticks in our heads is proof, IMO, the designers are doing it right.

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Immortals actually being aliens from the planet Zeist stuck in my head in a big way years after I saw Highlander II: The Quickening. That was most definitely not a sign, however, of the writers doing something right. When something is done horribly, horribly wrong that sticks in your head in a big way, too (Jar Jar Binks, Hayden Christensen, Spider-Man selling his marriage to the Devil, etc).

Incidentally, does all the gods coming back include Iyachtu Xvim? I can't really see a place for him amongst the pantheon, but you know what'd be interesting? Seeing him return to the mortal world. He's a demigod in the classical sense, after all. So why not have him play the role of the mythic hero (or villain, as the case may be)? The evil Faerunian version of Heracles, Perseus, or Achilles. And if Zhentil Keep is rebuilt then why not tie him into it? It'd be an exciting turn of events if Iyachtu Xvim, a demigod and the son of Bane, helped fight off the Netherese to re-establish Zhentil Keep.

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Originally posted by Jeremy Grenemyer

Does the lore say why the Cult are successful? Does it indicate there's a rogue leader amongst the Drabonborn who's led a small cadre into the Cult's clutches with promises of power?

Does it say the Dragonborn are infiltrating the Cult, to destroy it from within?

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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

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Originally posted by Bladewind

The odd thing is, I actually like the other new race, the Genasi, that swapped into the Realms alot. Abeir and its coterminous planar concepts I actually like alot too, but dragonborn just rub me wrong.

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Genasi are not a new race. The neon-looking ones that exist in large numbers are new to the setting, but genasi have been in the Realms longer. The race dates back to 2E, and was in the Realms from 3E.

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