| Author |
 Topic  |
|
Mournblade
Master of Realmslore
USA
1288 Posts |
 Posted - 24 Aug 2012 : 07:56:11
|
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
I don't want to wade into this very dense discussion (which you should definitely have, 'cuz it's good stuff), but let me make a couple points, and direct folks to my Candlekeep Seminar summary thread: http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=16861
1) In general: No retcon, no reboot, no invalidating old lore. Everything that happened, happened. That doesn't mean WotC isn't undoing the effects of some things--they definitely are. But we most likely aren't going to see revised backgrounds and racial histories--expanded, maybe, but not massively rewritten.
2) Dragonborn and Genasi "realms": The current plan is, as part of the Sundering, Akanul and Tymanther are headed back to Abeir. There may be vestiges left, and you have plenty of opportunity to use either of these races in your game. There are also a whole lot of portals connecting the worlds in these locations--use 'em or ignore 'em as you will.
3) Dragonborn origins: There are at least 4 distinct "humanoid dragon" races in the Realms. I think at least some of them share a common ancestor (Tymanther dragonborn and Saurials, for instance, may have derived from the same stock many thousands of years ago). And it must be remembered that "dragonborn" is not necessarily a scientific name or even a widely used term in the Realms. It's more a sagely term like "eladrin."
4) Heroes and Villains: As I understand it, the 5e Realms is trying to get back to the pre-ToT feel of "there are powerful heroes and villains in the world, but they aren't perpetually locked in combat/arms-race/mutually assured destruction and the only thing that matters is what they do." Too much focus on the uber-powerful characters in the setting was not really a good thing for the setting. That doesn't mean they should go away, 'cuz some of these characters are really, really cool. But they're wrapped up in their own schemes, pursuing their own stakes, having their own adventures, which aren't about saving the world every other weekend.
Venger, I'm concerned that what you're asking for about "we're barely a match for the villains so come help us!" is exactly what the Realms did in 4e. In that era, the villains and the heroes didn't have nearly the sort of power disparity they had in earlier editions, and the concept was that the heroes would have to provide the tipping weight, one way or the other. Is that what you want?
Going forward in the Realms, if you want to use the very powerful NPCs actively, you certainly can. You just shouldn't feel like you HAVE TO for the sake of verisimilitude in the world, which was somewhat the feel fostered by the many novels focusing on them and the introduction of their stats into the gamebooks. I would much prefer to see these folks NOT statted up, or if they are, only have them presented in adventures or an epic-level handbook sort of situation. It's about the context.
And on that note, check out the Candlekeep Seminar summary thread: http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=16861
Cheers
All of these points make me very happy. I hope it changes that way. |
A wizard is Never late Frodo Baggins. Nor is he Early. A wizard arrives precisely when he means to... |
 |
|
|
Mournblade
Master of Realmslore
USA
1288 Posts |
Posted - 24 Aug 2012 : 08:06:27
|
quote:
Originally posted by doctorbadwolf
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
2) Dragonborn and Genasi "realms": The current plan is, as part of the Sundering, Akanul and Tymanther are headed back to Abeir. There may be vestiges left, and you have plenty of opportunity to use either of these races in your game. There are also a whole lot of portals connecting the worlds in these locations--use 'em or ignore 'em as you will.
3) Dragonborn origins: There are at least 4 distinct "humanoid dragon" races in the Realms. I think at least some of them share a common ancestor (Tymanther dragonborn and Saurials, for instance, may have derived from the same stock many thousands of years ago). And it must be remembered that "dragonborn" is not necessarily a scientific name or even a widely used term in the Realms. It's more a sagely term like "eladrin."
Cheers
"No retcon, just a flash of Ao magic to wipe away these things you were worried would be retconed away. Totally different. I mean, screw Tymanther, right?"
Less encouraging than other things.
Nothing so interesting and imaginitive as a realm where the people of Tymanther and the people of Unther must learn to coexist and try to form a stable realm. Nothing so kind as Ao causing these people who [i]are now native to Faerun and their land to be moved to an island off one of the shores, or create a new continent so that lands lost can be reclaimed without shunting things out of sight, just a token effort to placate the fans of those elements by saying, "well, there are still some dragonborn and genasi, and it's not like history has been rewritten...right? "
You guys gonna axe Netheril and make Myth Drannor a ruin again, while you're at it?
At what point have you just shoved all forward movement in the setting out a window?
I'm sorry, but this just...this upsets me greatly. I won't edit it, but I will say...read with the understanding that I'm getting weary of recent events that seem a lot like over-corrections rather than steering back on course. I'm hoping this isn't such a case.
Myth Drannor and Netheril have lots of history behind them. Tymanther and the other replacement lands were just there to make FR fit in the core.
I am still all for your plot line of Unther having Dragonborn in it. It would be interesting with Tiamat. Just get rid of the lands and put them back on Abeir.
Or the Dragonborn can just be remnants of the creator races. That is fine too.
In any case I am just advocating that Abeir is off the Toril map. By all means include portals there. That way people that want them can still play in the newly devised world, and those that don't want it can just ignore the portals.
Genasi have always been in the realms, in fact 3rd edition Fr campaign guide was their first appearance. Reptillian humanoids have always been in the realms. There was no need to add Tyrmanther.
Still if Tyrmanther Dragonborn remain I can live with that. |
A wizard is Never late Frodo Baggins. Nor is he Early. A wizard arrives precisely when he means to... |
|
|
|
Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 24 Aug 2012 : 08:13:23
|
Netheril and Imaskar. Details from their humble beginnings to their rise to power, and finally, to their inevitable collapse.
Halruaa, preferably detailing that it somehow survived the Spellplague. |
Every beginning has an end. |
|
|
|
Mournblade
Master of Realmslore
USA
1288 Posts |
Posted - 24 Aug 2012 : 08:14:34
|
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
Honestly, my biggest dislike of the post Spellplague Forgotten Realms (or 1479 DR) was the little detail we got overall. At first, when it was released, I thought the less detail would all me further freedom in doing whatever I wanted in the Realms. But, now I can see that was a mistake, because I always had that ability in the first place. I guess it just took me something like that to fully illustrate it.
One of the things that I am hearing that I don't like is that the parts of Abeir are going away and we're getting back Mexico and Egypt. Let me just say, what a waste! Tymanther actually had promise. Akanûl was interesting. Returned Abeir could've received SO much more "original" attention that it was begging for lore. Now we're told that Mexico needs to come back and people can't play as Egyptians so that needs to come back as well? 
And sure, I can keep those in my games (which I intend to) but will we see novels set there? Will we see lore about it? Will there be more adventurs there abouts? I'm pretty sure the answer to those questions is "No". And yet, I doubt we'll see indepth and interesting information about Mulhorand or Maztica because they've had 25+ years to do that and they sat on their hands  . Please
The Old Empires guide is loaded with information. There has been alot of development on that front. I have already run two campaigns in Mulhorand thoguh they were my only ones not to go to at least level 15. Maztica had an entire trilogy about it. All those lands have a much more important place than the new ones tacked on.
The replacement of Mulhorand/Unther was clumsy, and I actually think THAT is a lazy mechanism. Genasi and Dragonborn could have much more sensible ways to be added.
I am someone that finds exploring historical tropes interesting. I have run very creative adventures in lands that parrallel earth history. Dismissing it out of hand because it is familiar, really is not fair to those that develop it. Forgotten Realms actually is a 'kitchen sink' setting. That is one of its strengths. |
A wizard is Never late Frodo Baggins. Nor is he Early. A wizard arrives precisely when he means to... |
|
|
|
Mournblade
Master of Realmslore
USA
1288 Posts |
Posted - 24 Aug 2012 : 08:24:06
|
quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy Grenemyer
Let's also not forget that Abeir has been around as long as Toril. Just because it hasn't had the priveledge of seeing its deep history in print, it doesn't follow that history doesn't exist.
With regard to Dragonborn, it's not like the Realms has never played host to the introduction of whole races from other worlds before.
Actually Abeir was placed on the Toril name to make it first in the index according to Jeff Grubb.
The Twin Worlds concept came much later with 4e. Abeir-Toril is the name of the planet. As it says on Page 19 of the Cyclopedia of the Realms (Grey Box) it is often simply shortened to Toril.
Abeir-Toril is just an EXCUSE for their mechanism.
|
A wizard is Never late Frodo Baggins. Nor is he Early. A wizard arrives precisely when he means to... |
|
|
|
Mournblade
Master of Realmslore
USA
1288 Posts |
Posted - 24 Aug 2012 : 08:26:41
|
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
quote:
Originally posted by Quale
You couldn't be more wrong, the Old Empires had far more potential, backed by thousands of years of history and mythology, than some designers pathetic attempt to port nth militaristic reptile race in the Realms.
You mean thousands of years of history and mythology from Earth they just 'plopped' into the Realms. Deities near the same. Heirachy near the same. Same style of huts and pyramids. Same Egyptian feel. I mean, I find nothing about this original or unique that fits into the Realms. As for militaristic reptile race, Dragonborn were in the Realms before the Return of Abeir. Now, while I didn't see the NEED to bring more of them in with a Country of their own, I find it more acceptable than Pharoahs and mummies.
I'm not wrong, I just have a different opinion than you.
And you know what, if I got some sign that they'd still support Tymanther, Akanûl, and Returned Abeir in some fashion then I'd be OK with that because I could just 'port' it over to the Realms with little fuss (or reverse it and give Mulhorand, Unther, and Maztica the same treatment). But I believe, as it stands, they'll wipe away these inspiring things to the shelf and be forgotten, which I still feel is a darn shame.
Ed Greenwood's concept of the Forgotten Realms is another realm with portals going to our Earth. Ideas and matter were both exchanged through the portals. The Pyramids and Pharoahs make complete sense there. The very idea of the realms is that it has been influenced by Earth and Vice Versa. Its all there in the original Grey Box. |
A wizard is Never late Frodo Baggins. Nor is he Early. A wizard arrives precisely when he means to... |
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36968 Posts |
Posted - 24 Aug 2012 : 10:55:46
|
quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy Grenemyer
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
And yet, the Cult of the Dragon -- still around 100 years after Sammy's true death -- has had good luck recruiting dragonborn. I'm still waiting for an explanation on that one.
Wooly: not all members of a given race act and think the same.
That was easy. Somebody give me another one. 
I get that not all members of a race act the same. Yet it's part of the racial description that dragonborn hate dragons -- so dragonborn willing to worship dragons should be as rare as lawful good vegan orcs. The fact that it's mentioned that the Cult has good luck recruiting them means that there is a significant number of dragonborn that hold attitudes opposite to their culture. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
|
|
|
Venger
Learned Scribe
USA
269 Posts |
Posted - 24 Aug 2012 : 14:08:36
|
Folkinmenborn, Manbornfolkmen... Dear God, what have I wrought?
quote:
Dragonborn hate dragons because they were repressed, slaughtered, and treatd as second class citizens at best by Dragons. So yea, I can easily see why they'd have a problem with them. And keep in mind that this ONLY refers to Dragonborn from Tymanther.
You're missing the point. The most "creative" thing they could think up with them was that this humanoid race of dragons hates normal dragons. They decided that Tymanther Dragonborn would hate Dragons and then came up with the backstory to justify it. That whole idea, though, is only slightly more creative than the idea of a barbarian who hates magic, which isn't saying much.
quote:
This was my big problem with 'Returned Abeir' - no-one from there would be calling it that. When I pointed that out (on the WotC site) after the 4e FRCS came out, some designers even agreed with me that is is bizarre that none of them even considered that during the designing process. There was no real name for the damn continent.
Case in point. Talk about a complete lack of creativity. I never thought about this because I never cared for Returned Abeir. I looked through that section of the book once when it first came out and never looked at it again. The designers, however, were paid to care. They certainly cared enough to eject an entire continent off the Torilian map so that they could insert this new continent they just devised, and they never even considered the idea that this continent should have its own name? Like my earlier Martian examples, the Martians and their country which gets scooped up off of Mars and switched out with North America aren't going to call their continent "Returned Mars." They're going to call it whatever the Hell it was called on Mars.
quote:
I support being all the Gods back, but they don't have to have the same Portfolios so Torm whose awesome doesn't have to get demoted. Tyr can be God of Judges and serve Torm.
Yeah, this is what has me concerned, given that a lot of the current gods are holding on to portfolios which belonged to the old dead gods. For instance, I'd LOVE to see Myrkul back. How're they going to bring him back, though? There can only be one God of the Dead, and I like Kelemvor in that role. I suggested elsewhere, though, how he could return without stepping on anybody's toes, so hopefully they go that route. That and some gods really have no purpose in the Realms and deserve to be gone. Why is Zehir even there?
Torm and Tyr is what concerns me, though. Torm as a Greater God would be my preference. I love the idea of Torm as God of Duty, Honor, and Justice. If Tyr's to be brought back then he should serve a lesser role, as he does in the Norse Pantheon in comparison to Odin, Thor, and Balder, and be God of Judges or something. The guy was as interesting as stale bread, so give him a job that fits his personality. |
"Beware what you say when you speak of magic, wizard, or you shall see who has the greater power." |
|
|
|
Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4490 Posts |
Posted - 24 Aug 2012 : 14:46:17
|
quote:
Originally posted by Mournblade
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
Honestly, my biggest dislike of the post Spellplague Forgotten Realms (or 1479 DR) was the little detail we got overall. At first, when it was released, I thought the less detail would all me further freedom in doing whatever I wanted in the Realms. But, now I can see that was a mistake, because I always had that ability in the first place. I guess it just took me something like that to fully illustrate it.
One of the things that I am hearing that I don't like is that the parts of Abeir are going away and we're getting back Mexico and Egypt. Let me just say, what a waste! Tymanther actually had promise. Akanûl was interesting. Returned Abeir could've received SO much more "original" attention that it was begging for lore. Now we're told that Mexico needs to come back and people can't play as Egyptians so that needs to come back as well?
And sure, I can keep those in my games (which I intend to) but will we see novels set there? Will we see lore about it? Will there be more adventurs there abouts? I'm pretty sure the answer to those questions is "No". And yet, I doubt we'll see indepth and interesting information about Mulhorand or Maztica because they've had 25+ years to do that and they sat on their hands . Please
The Old Empires guide is loaded with information. There has been alot of development on that front. I have already run two campaigns in Mulhorand thoguh they were my only ones not to go to at least level 15. Maztica had an entire trilogy about it. All those lands have a much more important place than the new ones tacked on.
Yep, maztica had 3 novels that was basically Helmite Conquistadors invading the "new world". Again, not original. It's basically an alagory of Earth. Let me refrain: I Don't like overtly real world parallels. In the slightest. As for the Old Empires, I didn't mind Chessenta and I was happy it remaind in the 4E Realms. And while I'm certain the 'Sundering' is all but finalized, I would JUST like someone to continue the areas of Returned Abeir (even if it's removed for Toril - again).
quote:
Originally posted by Mournblade
The replacement of Mulhorand/Unther was clumsy, and I actually think THAT is a lazy mechanism. Genasi and Dragonborn could have much more sensible ways to be added.
Dragonborn and genasi didn't need a way to be added since they've already been there pre-Spellplague. The fact that they have centers of power is, to me, just icing on the cake. But I don't think I've ever made a Genasi from Akanûl, but I think it would be fun for my character to visit there.
quote:
Originally posted by Mournblade
I am someone that finds exploring historical tropes interesting. I have run very creative adventures in lands that parrallel earth history. Dismissing it out of hand because it is familiar, really is not fair to those that develop it. Forgotten Realms actually is a 'kitchen sink' setting. That is one of its strengths.
And I consider it a negative point. And I'm sure your getting back your parallels with the 'Sundering'. Erik has all but made that clear. I won't ever use it but I've been ignoring those elements of the setting for the past 15 years (so what's another 50?). My hope is that they can consider the elements they put into there as good and help support them too. I find it highly unlikely, but a guy can dream. |
Diffan's NPG Generator: FR NPC Generator
E6 Options: Epic 6 Campaign |
|
|
|
Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4490 Posts |
Posted - 24 Aug 2012 : 14:48:46
|
quote:
Originally posted by Venger
quote:
Originally posted by DiffanDragonborn hate dragons because they were repressed, slaughtered, and treatd as second class citizens at best by Dragons. So yea, I can easily see why they'd have a problem with them. And keep in mind that this ONLY refers to Dragonborn from Tymanther.
You're missing the point. The most "creative" thing they could think up with them was that this humanoid race of dragons hates normal dragons. They decided that Tymanther Dragonborn would hate Dragons and then came up with the backstory to justify it. That whole idea, though, is only slightly more creative than the idea of a barbarian who hates magic, which isn't saying much.
As opposed to.....what exctly? I think this is just a difference of opinion and not something that can be actually measured. You don't think it's creative, I think it is. There's really little that can be said at this point on the subject and we should just agree to disagree. |
Diffan's NPG Generator: FR NPC Generator
E6 Options: Epic 6 Campaign |
|
|
|
Venger
Learned Scribe
USA
269 Posts |
Posted - 24 Aug 2012 : 15:19:11
|
quote:
Dragonborn and genasi didn't need a way to be added since they've already been there pre-Spellplague.
Once again, the Dragonborn which existed in 3E are not the 4E Dragonborn. They're completely different. 3E Dragonborn are Humans, Dwarves, Elves, Halflings, etc, who undergo a ritual to transform them into Dragonborn. 4E Dragonborn are their own individual race.
quote:
As opposed to.....what exctly? I think this is just a difference of opinion and not something that can be actually measured. You don't think it's creative, I think it is. There's really little that can be said at this point on the subject and we should just agree to disagree.
As opposed to giving them cultural traits which aren't based on what their feelings on dragons are? That'd be interesting. Instead all they did was take the Core Dragonborn, who served dragons, and said "Let's make ours hate dragons!" That's not creative. That's lazy writing. |
"Beware what you say when you speak of magic, wizard, or you shall see who has the greater power." |
|
|
|
Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 24 Aug 2012 : 15:27:50
|
I'm leaning toward Wooly's side on this one Jeremy. Its not just a 'choice' thing. Dragonborn joining the Cult of the Dragon is like a Black person joining the KKK, or a Jew joining an Islamic terrorist group. It just doesn't work for me.
However, I don't mind so much (anymore) that their are two varieties of dragonborn. If we take into account that Abeir and Toril are versions of one world, then it makes sense that the species would have found a way to evolve regardless of circumstances. The same could be applied for all other races (because FR had Tielfing and Genasi as well). I wouldn't mind seeing explanations for stuff like that, though (like why do 'half'-races do better on Abeir then on Toril?)
I'd also like to see something on how the oriental/K-T peoples view dragonborn. Logically, they should look upon them as demi-gods. And how do Elves feel about them? According to the GHotR, Sylvan (Green) Elves were sent to Toril by the fey to deal with dragons. Shouldn't they hate Dragonborn as well?
I'd also like to see them explore the dwarf and giant beginnings, and the 'why' behind their racial animosity. The giants evolving on Toril always made little sense to me (because the racial {subtype} giant deities are NOT from Toril). Giants and dragons are too universal to have been connected explicitly to FR - their story, and that of the dwarves, needs to be told. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
|
Edited by - Markustay on 24 Aug 2012 15:29:36 |
|
|
|
deserk
Learned Scribe
Norway
239 Posts |
Posted - 24 Aug 2012 : 15:41:16
|
I liked Mulhorand and Unther, being based on Ancient Egypt and Babylon, respectively, because they are ancient cultures that are quite alien by today's standards. Few even know that much about them (especially Babylon), so I feel they fit very well in a fantasy setting.
Having said that, I don't mind efforts to make them more Realmsian, so long as they stay exotic and interesting, and feel different from other places.
|
Edited by - deserk on 24 Aug 2012 15:43:28 |
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36968 Posts |
Posted - 24 Aug 2012 : 15:45:25
|
| Let's shy away from bringing the real-world into this, please. That can get ugly. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36968 Posts |
Posted - 24 Aug 2012 : 15:55:07
|
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
Dragonborn and genasi didn't need a way to be added since they've already been there pre-Spellplague. The fact that they have centers of power is, to me, just icing on the cake. But I don't think I've ever made a Genasi from Akanûl, but I think it would be fun for my character to visit there.
I don't see why dragonborn or genasi need a center of power...
3E dragonborn were individuals, born as something else, who decided to dedicate themselves to serving Bahamut. There prolly weren't enough of them in the Realms to fill a city block, much less have a need for a center of power.
And while 2E and 3E genasi were more common than that, they were still pretty rare -- far rarer than half-elves or half-orcs, who don't have a center of power.
I really hope 5E goes back to the 2E and 3E planetouched. I hate the "there's whole nations of them!" approach of 4E, and I also hate the "genasi are now neon, and you can spot a tiefling from 50 feet away in a dark room!" physical appearances. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
|
|
|
Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 24 Aug 2012 : 16:03:12
|
I prefer the less 'in your face' variety of Tielfings and Halfdragons as well, but I am okay with people having choices about how they look, and still use a single mechanic. I would like the fiction to illustrate that as well (that you can't always tell a tiefling is a tiefling right away). On the other hand, that completely goes against the point I made in the other thread (that I want separate things to have separate names).
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Let's shy away from bringing the real-world into this, please. That can get ugly.
I understand I was walking a dangerous line with that one, but I needed that particular point to be made in that fashion - fantasy analogies just wouldn't have 'hit home' in the same manner.
I mean no offense to anyone - I just needed to play 'the race card' in this specific example. Dragonborn are supposed to hate Dragons with every fiber of their being; you just can't have it both ways.
In a broader view, I think 4e fluff was guilty of this sort of 'wishy-washy' lore on many fronts. Quite often something said somewhere disagreed wih stuff said elsewhere - it was as-if the 4e designers themselves never came to any sort of consensus.
But thats water under the bridge, and the ebil edition-wars is creeping back into these conversations - something I hoped to avoid.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
|
Edited by - Markustay on 24 Aug 2012 16:08:58 |
|
|
|
Old Man Harpell
Senior Scribe
USA
498 Posts |
Posted - 24 Aug 2012 : 16:07:21
|
quote:
Originally posted by Mournblade
What I want to see changed is all of the old lands brought back.
I also would like to see Abeir disappear off the Toril map completely. Leave the Dragonborn that is fine, just bring back Mulhorand and UNther, and maztica. make Abeir another world that can be reached by portals, but are well off of the Toril map.
For me now, Abeir is the worst thing about the 4e realms. I am hoping the sundering, is cutting Abeir out.
This is it, pretty much. I dislike dragonborn (regardless of era, but especially the Abeir breeds), but removing them completely would be a huge, huge mistake. Not allowing them as player characters is one thing (which is my policy, and is entirely a non-corporate one), but erasing them entirely would just be bad game design. So while I am glad Mulhorand and Unther are coming back, I believe there's something to be said for leaving elements of Akanul and Tymanther behind, particularly if they evolved on Toril after 'the Accident', and did not originate from Abeir.
And I have to admit, 4th Edition did bring us some good things. I never did like the huge freaking Anauroch desert - that irritated me, for some reason, so I was happy to see it go away. I'll understand if they bring it back, but...bleah.
Likewise, I did like the concept of High Imaskar, perhaps because it was an entirely 'indigenous' concept. And it provided a fairly diverse ethnic twist to the 'powerful mage' trope, as opposed to my mutt-based perception of the 'whitebread' Netherese. Not that there aren't whitebread Imaskari, mind you, but they are just part of a nicely diverse totality. I hope it stays, but I will not be surprised to see it go.
And while I am happy to see Maztica come back (maps, please), I'll agree with Diffan's observation that the re-telling of Cortez and Tenochtitlan was not the best idea. The novels weren't a bad read, but if the folk of Faerun go back to Maztica, Wizbro should scrub Helmsport and anything from the previous colonial era from the map, and have them do the 'colonial thing' in an entirely different (and uniquely 'Faerunian') fashion.
My remaining question is: What about the 'missing' non-deity personalities? Some, like Khelben, had their stories told to fine effect, and I can accept that, even if it rankles me somewhat.
Others, like Qilue Veladorn, were given the shaft (if anything should be mercilessly retconned to death with extreme prejudice, it should be anything to do with Lady Penitent, and this is in no way a criticism of Lisa Smedman's writing ability - just of the professor who told her to do it). In my opinion, this is a colossal screw-up that needs to be addressed.
Still others were just said to be 'no longer there', which I consider the height of laziness. Alustriel, Laeral, Halaster, and a bunch of others weren't just stock peasants - even if they were never utilized in someone's campaigns, they made impressions on the history and atmosphere of the Realms, and I very much resent the dismissive treatment they received in 4th Edition.
As I have said previously, I'm optimistic, and I know you can't please everyone completely. I'm just curious as to how they plan to address some of these 'little issues', if at all.
- OMH |
|
|
|
The Red Walker
Great Reader
USA
3567 Posts |
Posted - 24 Aug 2012 : 16:08:27
|
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Let's shy away from bringing the real-world into this, please. That can get ugly.
I understand I was walking a dangerous line with that one, but I needed that particular point to be made in that fashion - fantasy analogies just wouldn't have 'hit home' in the same manner.
I mean no offense to anyone - I just needed to play 'the race card' in this specific example. Dragonborn are supposed to hate Dragons with every fiber of their being; you just can't have it both ways.
In a broader view, I think 4e fluff was guilty of this sort of 'wishy-washy' lore on many fronts. Quite often something said somewhere disagreed wih stuff said elsewhere - it was as-if the 4e designers themselves never came to any sort of consensus.
But thats water under the bridge, and the ebil edition-wars is creeping back into these conversations - something I hoped to avoid.
Can't really pu that Genie back in the bottle, it doesn't matter if "no offense" was meant, it was offensive. Your a really smart guy, so you knew what you were saying and what it would be taken as.
Your "I just needed to play the race" card is a ridiculous excuse and is almost as offensive as the act.
We are talking about a game...made up by a 7 year old....I think we tend to forget that.
|
A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka
"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -
John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
|
Edited by - The Red Walker on 24 Aug 2012 16:10:52 |
|
|
|
Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 24 Aug 2012 : 16:16:19
|
Really? That was offensive? I seriously wasn't trying to be - I was trying to illustrate a point.
Considering my children have all had brises, and I have several black family members, I had never thought of myself as 'a racist'. Hmph... imagine that. I will have to tell all of them not to speak to me anymore (cause I'm such a bad person).
I will admit, looking back, that the analogies were a bit off. The RW examples were about groups that hate specific races, and members of those races trying to join, which isn't accurate for the Cult of the Dragon and the Dragonborn.
I guess a better analogy would have been a Veggan joining a 'hunt club'. Sorry, my bad.
(and I hope I didn't somehow offend an animal-hating veggan out there somewhere). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
|
Edited by - Markustay on 24 Aug 2012 16:17:54 |
|
|
|
deserk
Learned Scribe
Norway
239 Posts |
Posted - 24 Aug 2012 : 16:23:19
|
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I really hope 5E goes back to the 2E and 3E planetouched. I hate the "there's whole nations of them!" approach of 4E, and I also hate the "genasi are now neon, and you can spot a tiefling from 50 feet away in a dark room!" physical appearances.
Really agree with this. I loathe the look of genasi and tieflings in 4E. The genasi looked like half-elementals. Same with tieflings looking like half-devils or half-demons. I liked when they had subtle features, as opposed to "in-your-face" exaggerated features, blatantly indicating their outsider background.
Also, I liked the return of the Imaskari (annoyed that they took over Mulhorand, as a opposed to returning to Raurin, their ancient homeland). Although I feel 4E FRCS, didn't properly explain whether they are all Deep Imaskari (which I would presume, since they were in 3rd edition). Same with the Netherese returning, on whether they are all Shadovar or human. |
Edited by - deserk on 24 Aug 2012 16:25:16 |
|
|
|
The Red Walker
Great Reader
USA
3567 Posts |
Posted - 24 Aug 2012 : 16:28:07
|
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Really? That was offensive? I seriously wasn't trying to be - I was trying to illustrate a point.
Considering my children have all had brises, and I have several black family members, I had never thought of myself as 'a racist'. Hmph... imagine that. I will have to tell all of them not to speak to me anymore (cause I'm such a bad person).
I will admit, looking back, that the analogies were a bit off. The RW examples were about groups that hate specific races, and members of those races trying to join, which isn't accurate for the Cult of the Dragon and the Dragonborn.
I guess a better analogy would have been a Veggan joining a 'hunt club'. Sorry, my bad.
(and I hope I didn't somehow offend an animal-hating veggan out there somewhere).
Last I'll say on this so we dont totally de-rail this scroll..
I in no way called you a racist(although you quickly accused that...why?) you dont have to be a racist to be offensive.
Also didn't say your a bad person. Maybe you are, maybe you aren't...but Ive never thought so. But I have been reading your posts here for just over 6 years.
Your smart....smart as hell....you rarely if ever make an oooppss or a mistatement...unless you mean too
And on topic...watching the video of the first sundering panel.....very interesting
thanks Pual Kemp for the link
edit: changed dundering to sundering...I did not call it that on purpose! |
A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka
"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -
John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
|
Edited by - The Red Walker on 24 Aug 2012 16:51:53 |
|
|
|
Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader
USA
2717 Posts |
Posted - 24 Aug 2012 : 16:39:34
|
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
The fact that it's mentioned that the Cult has good luck recruiting them means that there is a significant number of dragonborn that hold attitudes opposite to their culture.
The Realms are rarely so cut and dried, which is to say how does your conclusion follow?
Does the lore say why the Cult are successful? Does it indicate there's a rogue leader amongst the Drabonborn who's led a small cadre into the Cult's clutches with promises of power?
Does it say the Dragonborn are infiltrating the Cult, to destroy it from within?
Remembe, this is gaming material, not complete, encyclopedic information sources.
quote:
Originally posted by Venger
Instead all they did was take the Core Dragonborn, who served dragons, and said "Let's make ours hate dragons!" That's not creative. That's lazy writing.
Actually, coming up with that line was pretty lazy.
Realms Dragonborn aren't Core Dragonborn...and really, why should they be? |
Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver). |
|
|
|
Marc
Senior Scribe
662 Posts |
Posted - 24 Aug 2012 : 16:55:53
|
My wishlist for the 5th edition is simple, series of adventures, don't care in what year, only that it can match Paizo's products.
I did not follow the 4th edition to list the likes and dislikes. The Eminence of Araminta, or what's it called was a nice idea, lots of potential. |
. |
Edited by - Marc on 24 Aug 2012 16:57:49 |
|
|
|
Venger
Learned Scribe
USA
269 Posts |
Posted - 24 Aug 2012 : 17:02:53
|
quote:
Actually, coming up with that line was pretty lazy.
Realms Dragonborn aren't Core Dragonborn...and really, why should they be?
Not sure what you mean by "that line." What line? And am I being paid for my postings on Candlekeep that more should be expected from my criticisms when I post the way one would expect more from game developers who're being paid for their work?
They're the same race. The only real differentation they came up with, though, was deciding that the Abeir Dragonborn hated dragons while the Core Dragonborn served dragons. When the extent of the work you put into a races background involves just inverting the expected trope and stopping there, then yes, that is lazy writing. |
"Beware what you say when you speak of magic, wizard, or you shall see who has the greater power." |
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36968 Posts |
Posted - 24 Aug 2012 : 17:02:58
|
quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy Grenemyer
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
The fact that it's mentioned that the Cult has good luck recruiting them means that there is a significant number of dragonborn that hold attitudes opposite to their culture.
The Realms are rarely so cut and dried, which is to say how does your conclusion follow?
Does the lore say why the Cult are successful? Does it indicate there's a rogue leader amongst the Drabonborn who's led a small cadre into the Cult's clutches with promises of power?
Does it say the Dragonborn are infiltrating the Cult, to destroy it from within?
Remembe, this is gaming material, not complete, encyclopedic information sources.
Nope, it does not offer any reason that dragon-haters are going to join a group that worships dragons. But the fact that it's mentioned means it happens in significant enough numbers to be noteworthy. If it was just one or two, they'd've not have wasted the word count.
I don't need a complete, encyclopedic information source -- but when contradictory information is offered, I want more than just a single, throwaway line. It's just good setting design to explain something like that. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
|
|
|
Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader
USA
2717 Posts |
Posted - 24 Aug 2012 : 17:08:58
|
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
It's just good setting design to explain something like that.
As usual, we'll have to agree to disagree here.
I think seeming contradictions (in moderation) are good things because 1) it gives DMs hooks and something to think about (which is what a good setting sourcebook should do) and 2) it promotes versimilitude within the setting.
The fact that something like this sticks in our heads is proof, IMO, the designers are doing it right.
quote:
Originally posted by Venger
When the extent of the work you put into a races background involves just inverting the expected trope and stopping there, then yes, that is lazy writing.
Really? That's the sum total of work done on FR Dragonborn?
Where's the grain of salt smiley when you need it? |
Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver). |
Edited by - Jeremy Grenemyer on 24 Aug 2012 17:14:35 |
|
|
|
Venger
Learned Scribe
USA
269 Posts |
Posted - 24 Aug 2012 : 17:34:30
|
quote:
The fact that something like this sticks in our heads is proof, IMO, the designers are doing it right.
Immortals actually being aliens from the planet Zeist stuck in my head in a big way years after I saw Highlander II: The Quickening. That was most definitely not a sign, however, of the writers doing something right. When something is done horribly, horribly wrong that sticks in your head in a big way, too (Jar Jar Binks, Hayden Christensen, Spider-Man selling his marriage to the Devil, etc).
Anyway, I've been thinking about having all the gods return and what it might mean for portfolios and such, so here's my tentative wish list for how that could work out.
LATHANDER (GREATER GOD)
Neutral Good
Portfolios: Athletics, Birth, Creativity, Dawn, Renewal, Self-Perfection, Spring, Vitality, Youth
AMAUNATOR (GREATER GOD)
Lawful Neutral
Portfolios: Bureaucracy, Contracts, Law, the Midday Sun, Order, Rulership
MYRKUL (GREATER GOD)
Neutral Evil
Portfolios: Autumn, Corruption, Decay, Dusk, Exhaustion, Old Age, Parasites, Undeath, Wasting
CYRIC (GREATER GOD)
Chaotic Evil
Portfolios: Lies, Murder, Strife
LEIRA (GOD)
Chaotic Neutral
Portfolios: Deception, Illusion
MASK (GOD)
Neutral Evil
Portfolios: Intrigue, Shadows, Thievery, Thieves
BHAAL (GOD)
Lawful Evil
Portfolios: Assassination, Blood, Poison, Violence
TORM (GREATER GOD)
Lawful Good
Portfolios: Duty, Honor, Justice
TYR (GOD)
Lawful Good
Portfolios: Judgment, Loyalty, Obedience
Incidentally, does all the gods coming back include Iyachtu Xvim? I can't really see a place for him amongst the pantheon, but you know what'd be interesting? Seeing him return to the mortal world. He's a demigod in the classical sense, after all. So why not have him play the role of the mythic hero (or villain, as the case may be)? The evil Faerunian version of Heracles, Perseus, or Achilles. And if Zhentil Keep is rebuilt then why not tie him into it? It'd be an exciting turn of events if Iyachtu Xvim, a demigod and the son of Bane, helped fight off the Netherese to re-establish Zhentil Keep. |
"Beware what you say when you speak of magic, wizard, or you shall see who has the greater power." |
|
|
|
Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 24 Aug 2012 : 17:46:08
|
Sorry Red Walker - that was a knee-jerk reaction.
I had gotten a three-day ban on the WotC once for making 'racist' comments, when all I was trying to do was point-out how the 4e treatment of Mezro (Chult) looked. In that case, I purposely used provocative terminology, so I suppose the banning was in order (although I still find it amusing I was banned for the exact reason I was accusing them of).
Anyhow, I really should always take at least a 5-minute break before I hit 'post' - I find that helps immensely. Apologies all around.
Back on-topic: How about we use this? What if the 3e Dragonborn were the ones joining the Cult, and that sparks an internal race war amongst the two branches of Dragonkind? That could get interesting. As for any canon that says it was specifically the Tymanther DB, thats easy to sweep under the carpet. After all, they all look alike to us.
(and yes, that time I did it on-purpose) |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
|
Edited by - Markustay on 24 Aug 2012 17:47:08 |
|
|
|
Dark Wizard
Senior Scribe
USA
830 Posts |
Posted - 24 Aug 2012 : 17:50:32
|
Not so sure about designers doing it right in instances like these. When ideas aren't expressed well or expressed clearly, they lead to confusion (which is what this is) with people asking for clarification on a vague point. These also lead to debate and argument of a non-constructive nature, giving people a reason to disregard the setting. Situations like these are one of the reasons misconceptions about the setting pop-up and perpetuate.
In general, if you put in a story hook, you want it meaty enough to clearly represent the idea, not something that appears like a throwaway line that's a mismatch with established lore. The hook should not be the existence of a contradiction, those could be a dime a dozen. It should be the reason for the contradiction. That's good design, putting forth ideas that tie together separate things, ideas that get the imagination going.
I think the problem might also be painting certain aspects of the 4E Realms in broad, overreaching strokes. "All Dragonborn hate dragons." Instead of clearly relaying "Some Dragonborn hate dragons because..." "but others are okay with them." The latter opens up choices for both DMs and plaers. Here, however, the big slogan does stick in our heads, Dragonborn hate dragons. I can only hope the designers meant to do this right.
|
|
|
|
Bladewind
Master of Realmslore
Netherlands
1280 Posts |
Posted - 24 Aug 2012 : 18:15:55
|
Dragonborn hate dragons? I hate dragonborn.
In the Realms I have a similar dislike for other, superfantastical creature races like Warforged, Shardminds and Wilden. They lack the history that ties most player races to the history of the Realms.
I would love to see Dragonborn ousted to Abeir. I had the most problem with their numbers; if they are extremely rare I can accept their inclusion. But all in all I couldn't wrap my head around seeing a dragonborn merchant peddling his wares in a Cormyrean city. It just doesn't fit my image of the Realms. |
My campaign sketches
Druidic Groves
Creature Feature: Giant Spiders |
|
|
|
Topic |
|
|
|
Likes/Dislikes of 4E Realms, Wish List for 5E
