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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
 Posted - 10 Sep 2012 : 01:21:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Lord Bane
In this Dogma you can see that resistance against Bane is met with death and if you do not follow Bane you lose your power and if you follow Bane and cross him your bound to some very unpleasent results on your end. You stated gods can be fickle and Bane would strip Szass Tam of his power if the lich opposed Banes faith with the power he got from Bane in first place.
Again, it's not in their 'contract' that Szass Tam, and by extension, his own servants, should be following Bane's every whim. Until 1,000 years, that is. Szass Tam was callous enough to summon, cage, and demand a bargain in the first place; that alone was an act of defiance. So I see no reason why he'd care if he'd make Bane mad. Besides, Bane himself explicitly said that he didn't care that much about his followers in Thay, because he has thousands more all over Toril.
And what power are you talking about? Szass Tam had already spent it all during the War of the Zulkirs, when the Spellplague rendered his magic undependable. The very reason why he wanted that war to end as soon as possible was because Bane's boon was 'running out.' |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 10 Sep 2012 : 01:25:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Eminence of Araunt: If Myrkul is coming back, it might be interesting to connect him to this organization.
Well, who knows, Lod could be his avatar or aspect. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Eilserus
Master of Realmslore
USA
1446 Posts |
Posted - 10 Sep 2012 : 02:44:58
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
This thread is starting to get me to hate Thay.
Connections and likes:
I like the Warlock Knights of Vassa, but I wouldn't mind seeing them get re-tooled. I have no problem with primordials, but apparently lots of other people do. I have some thoughts about a compromise, but I don't really know enough about 4e - is that primordial dead, or is he just 'stuck' somehow?
Eminence of Araunt: If Myrkul is coming back, it might be interesting to connect him to this organization.
Other Races: Blend the 'new' races in better with FR. I realize none of them are truly new; its a damn shame the designers didn't realize that. Giving them there own realms within Faerūn makes the whole 'Returned Abeir' thing kinda pointless (which is why I think Returned Abeir/Laerakond was a last-minute add - everything they needed to do had already been added to the realms-proper). All they needed to do was use Laerakond and that would have explained where all those critters came form in 4e. In other words, there was no reason to force-fit entire nations onto the Faerūn map - 4e became redundant with itself.
Dragon-ruled nations: We now have way too many of those. Seems to me someone brought the idea up at a meeting, and everyone ran in a different direction with it. I wouldn't mind one such nation in Faerūn, IF they get rid of Returned Abeir. Which brings me to...
Returned Abeir: I'd prefer they merge it with old Maztica, because I think an amalgam of the two would be whole 'nother level of awesome. Unfortunately, I do not think they have the time, resources, or where-withal to bother with non-Faerūnian places (so 5e will be like 3e & 4e in that regard). If they just get rid of it, then so be it (which would bring us right back to our original Maztica dilemma). If they keep it as-is, then I would say they need to get rid of all the Abeir-like regions in Faerūn (because they aren't needed). That means the 'dragon-ruled' Murghom and Semphar (I've already discussed what to do with those elsewhere), as well as all those 4e racial regions.
Moving forward, every time a 'new' race comes out in some splat - even if its a non-FR book - give us an "In the Realms..." article on how to use it. YES, I am aware that people can do this for themselves, but for whatever reason, D&D players these days seem to need to be led like sheep. Eytan Berstein is the guy for this sort of treatment.
*Ack* - I had to self-edit. I found myself slipping into 'rules wishlist' mode, and this isn't the appropriate thread.
I think primordials would have a way better cool-ness factor if they were given the same loving lore treatment as some of the old gods like Myrkul or Bane etc. The one under Gauntlgrym is kind of interesting, but I definitely did not dig the underdark one Torog.
I'm guessing the primordials are going away with the separating of the worlds, but it would be cool to see a few remain. They could stat them up like old school demon princes like Lolth was back in the Queen of the Spiders D module?
Maybe that falls too close to killing gods, but I'm a big fan of unique monsters/demons/whatever instead of a pit fiend straight outta the monster manual etc.
I'd also like to see more demipowers or minor gods or godling types we haven't seen before. No powerhouses, just this is a unique cult, goddess etc. |
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The Hidden Lord
Learned Scribe
148 Posts |
Posted - 10 Sep 2012 : 04:44:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Think about it: The original Thultanthar Mythallar had to have been built with 'Whole' (Raw) magic - the kind that existed before Karsus' fall. This magic (according to RotAW) is made up of both Arcane energy and Umbral (shadow) energy.
Nope. The Thultanthar's mythallar(s) was composed of raw magic; according to some in-character perspectives from RotAW, raw magic is composed of Weave and Shadow Weave magic.
There is no "umbral(shadow)" component. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 10 Sep 2012 : 08:54:11
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So Cerulean isn't blue, and crimson isn't red, eh?
Now your just being contentious.
'Umbral' is cool. 'Shadow' is just some silly buzz-word that appeals to 13 year olds. They're the same thing. All you did was change the words and repeat what I said.
EDIT: Unless you are trying to say there is no Shadow'Umbral energy in the Shadow-Weave?  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 10 Sep 2012 08:55:36 |
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Lord Bane
Senior Scribe
Germany
479 Posts |
Posted - 10 Sep 2012 : 09:06:08
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Again, it's not in their 'contract' that Szass Tam, and by extension, his own servants, should be following Bane's every whim. Until 1,000 years, that is. Szass Tam was callous enough to summon, cage, and demand a bargain in the first place; that alone was an act of defiance. So I see no reason why he'd care if he'd make Bane mad. Besides, Bane himself explicitly said that he didn't care that much about his followers in Thay, because he has thousands more all over Toril.
And what power are you talking about? Szass Tam had already spent it all during the War of the Zulkirs, when the Spellplague rendered his magic undependable. The very reason why he wanted that war to end as soon as possible was because Bane's boon was 'running out.'
Szass Tam would not be foolish enough to act against a god without a plan to come out of it and not suffer the consequences. A god does care if he "loses" the living populace of Thay as faithfull because faithfull mean power for the god. It would be selfdefeating to let "things slide". Bane wants to controll Faerun and Toril, maybe even the whole multiverse, who knows, but to say he wouldn“t care about a nation of faithfull because he got more somewhere else is not how I percieve Bane and I disagree with that statement. It makes no sense for a tyrannical god to simply say that he does not care and "relinquishes" control. More power for him means one step closer to his goal.
We can argue on an off about Bane, Szass Tam and Thay but if we continue we maybe should open a Scroll and continue there and not derail this one evenmore. |
The driving force in the multiverse is evil, for it forces good to act. |
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The Hidden Lord
Learned Scribe
148 Posts |
Posted - 10 Sep 2012 : 09:16:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
So Cerulean isn't blue, and crimson isn't red, eh?
Now your just being contentious.
'Umbral' is cool. 'Shadow' is just some silly buzz-word that appeals to 13 year olds. They're the same thing. All you did was change the words and repeat what I said.
EDIT: Unless you are trying to say there is no Shadow'Umbral energy in the Shadow-Weave?
There is nothing in canon which states that the Shadow Weave is composed of Shadow'Umbral energy, negative energy, planar energy from the plane of shadow, or other entropy-ish fantasy 'energy' forms.
So yeah. |
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 10 Sep 2012 : 10:02:57
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| The Weave is not raw magic, the Weave was the most easiest way to access magic, it's like a network. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12194 Posts |
Posted - 10 Sep 2012 : 21:33:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Nothing in canon states that some, most, or all of Thay's necromancers are Banites. Theurgy has never been popular in Thay. Practices in the arcane and divine magic have always been separate. And remember, Szass Tam still maintains a mental link to his necromancer-lackeys, and his mental leash on them is nigh-absolute. Given that he never bows before any god, I doubt he'd let his necromancers do otherwise. The necromancers may be tempted to seek Bane's blessing, but Szass Tam would expunge it before they even realize what they're feeling.
I'll disagree here. People like to be able to be resurrected.
Why resort to resurrection and subject yourself to the whims of a fickle god when you yourself can use arcane magic to prolong your existence or return to life (after your "untimely" death) as a lich or another form of undead? And, I still maintain that whatever temptation the necromancers may feel towards embracing Bane, Szass Tam would be adamant in stopping it.
Because the vast majority of them don't have the power to return as a lich, and for most, they'd rather return as a human than say a ghoul or something else that has the nastiness but not the power to go along with it. So, hedge your bet and worship SOMEONE.... and if not worshipping Bane is a problem, then Bane becomes the default. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12194 Posts |
Posted - 10 Sep 2012 : 21:45:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
This thread is starting to get me to hate Thay.
Connections and likes:
I like the Warlock Knights of Vassa, but I wouldn't mind seeing them get re-tooled. I have no problem with primordials, but apparently lots of other people do. I have some thoughts about a compromise, but I don't really know enough about 4e - is that primordial dead, or is he just 'stuck' somehow?
Eminence of Araunt: If Myrkul is coming back, it might be interesting to connect him to this organization.
Other Races: Blend the 'new' races in better with FR. I realize none of them are truly new; its a damn shame the designers didn't realize that. Giving them there own realms within Faerūn makes the whole 'Returned Abeir' thing kinda pointless (which is why I think Returned Abeir/Laerakond was a last-minute add - everything they needed to do had already been added to the realms-proper). All they needed to do was use Laerakond and that would have explained where all those critters came form in 4e. In other words, there was no reason to force-fit entire nations onto the Faerūn map - 4e became redundant with itself.
Dragon-ruled nations: We now have way too many of those. Seems to me someone brought the idea up at a meeting, and everyone ran in a different direction with it. I wouldn't mind one such nation in Faerūn, IF they get rid of Returned Abeir. Which brings me to...
Returned Abeir: I'd prefer they merge it with old Maztica, because I think an amalgam of the two would be whole 'nother level of awesome. Unfortunately, I do not think they have the time, resources, or where-withal to bother with non-Faerūnian places (so 5e will be like 3e & 4e in that regard). If they just get rid of it, then so be it (which would bring us right back to our original Maztica dilemma). If they keep it as-is, then I would say they need to get rid of all the Abeir-like regions in Faerūn (because they aren't needed). That means the 'dragon-ruled' Murghom and Semphar (I've already discussed what to do with those elsewhere), as well as all those 4e racial regions.
Moving forward, every time a 'new' race comes out in some splat - even if its a non-FR book - give us an "In the Realms..." article on how to use it. YES, I am aware that people can do this for themselves, but for whatever reason, D&D players these days seem to need to be led like sheep. Eytan Berstein is the guy for this sort of treatment.
*Ack* - I had to self-edit. I found myself slipping into 'rules wishlist' mode, and this isn't the appropriate thread.
On the Myrkul thing... one thing that I always thought was odd was that they specifically spelled out that Myrkul was NOT a lord of the undead. However, they had Orcus and other deities (Kiaransalee)claiming undeath, so maybe that's why.
MYRKUL (MERR-kool)
Lord of Bones, Old Lord Skull
God of the Dead, Wasting, Decay,
Corruption, Parasites, Old Age,
Dusk, Fall, Exhaustion NE
Greater Power Hades
Symbol: A skull or skeletal hand
NOTES: This god usually appears as a
cloaked, animated corpse#151;skeletal at
its head, becoming fleshed toward its
feet, which are gangrenous and rotting.
Myrkul is said to have a cold, malignant
intelligence and to speak in a high whisper
His supernatural servants are
known as #147;Deaths#148; (such as that which
appears as part of the deck of many
things, DMG, p.143). He can animate
and command the dead, but has no
power over undead above the level of
zombies and skeletons. Myrkul lives in
the Castle of Bones, located in a moonless
Land of Always Night (Hades). |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Sightless
Senior Scribe
USA
608 Posts |
Posted - 10 Sep 2012 : 23:08:30
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quote:
Originally posted by The Hidden Lord
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
So Cerulean isn't blue, and crimson isn't red, eh?
Now your just being contentious.
'Umbral' is cool. 'Shadow' is just some silly buzz-word that appeals to 13 year olds. They're the same thing. All you did was change the words and repeat what I said.
EDIT: Unless you are trying to say there is no Shadow'Umbral energy in the Shadow-Weave?
There is nothing in canon which states that the Shadow Weave is composed of Shadow'Umbral energy, negative energy, planar energy from the plane of shadow, or other entropy-ish fantasy 'energy' forms.
So yeah.
The shadowstone isn't canon?
If it isn't why not?
Inquiring minds want to know. |
We choose to live a lie, when we see with, & not through the eye.
Every decision, no matter the evidence, is a leap of faith; if it were not, then it wouldn't be a choice at all. |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6688 Posts |
Posted - 11 Sep 2012 : 01:32:31
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There's a difference in the Realms between shadow magic and the Shadow Weave. The former has existed concurrently with the latter and they are often confused, but it's important to keep in mind the key difference: shadow magic is Weave-based.
This brings us to the question of when the Shadow Weave was created. Recalling previous threads on this topic, it's clear that the sources are somewhat confused on this point.
For simplicity's sake, I've always been of the view that the Shadow Weave existed immediately when Mystryl created the Weave. Shar however did not become aware of it for a long time. When she did become aware of it, her ability to grasp and control it was not immediate and took much time and effort on her part. At the same time, she was also dabbling in shadow magic and seeing whether that could be harnessed for her own ends (trying to subvert the Weave "from within" by using an aspect of that construct that suited her area of personal expertise and power - of course, that proved to be a dead-end in terms of taking over Mystra's power).
Given this, I tend to think of the information from the Shadowstone novel as reflecting Shar's efforts to subvert Mystra by using Weave-based shadow magic as opposed to Shadow Weave magic.
This theory is of course complicated by some of the imprecise wording used in the novels, with Realms of Shadow being the chief culprit. It's clear that there was no clarity of approach for this topic when the authors were let loose for that anthology. If ever a Realms traffic cop was needed, it was then.
-- George Krashos
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"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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The Hidden Lord
Learned Scribe
148 Posts |
Posted - 11 Sep 2012 : 01:35:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Sightless
quote:
Originally posted by The Hidden Lord
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
So Cerulean isn't blue, and crimson isn't red, eh?
Now your just being contentious.
'Umbral' is cool. 'Shadow' is just some silly buzz-word that appeals to 13 year olds. They're the same thing. All you did was change the words and repeat what I said.
EDIT: Unless you are trying to say there is no Shadow'Umbral energy in the Shadow-Weave?
There is nothing in canon which states that the Shadow Weave is composed of Shadow'Umbral energy, negative energy, planar energy from the plane of shadow, or other entropy-ish fantasy 'energy' forms.
So yeah.
The shadowstone isn't canon?
If it isn't why not?
Inquiring minds want to know.
What George said. |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6688 Posts |
Posted - 11 Sep 2012 : 01:35:56
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*sigh* ... and so of course, I forgot to make my main point, which galvanised me to post in the first place.
I think that Thultanthar and the Shades originally used Weave-based shadow magic and that their mythallar, as originally created, was purely Weave-powered. When Shar revealed the majesty of the Shadow Weave to Telamont and co, their mythallar (and much of their magic generally) was either replaced with a Shadow-Weave version or modified to be "powered" by the Shadow Weave. All IMHO of course and very likely YMMV.
-- George Krashos
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"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
Edited by - George Krashos on 11 Sep 2012 01:36:19 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36971 Posts |
Posted - 11 Sep 2012 : 04:13:34
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quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
There's a difference in the Realms between shadow magic and the Shadow Weave. The former has existed concurrently with the latter and they are often confused, but it's important to keep in mind the key difference: shadow magic is Weave-based.
This brings us to the question of when the Shadow Weave was created. Recalling previous threads on this topic, it's clear that the sources are somewhat confused on this point.
For simplicity's sake, I've always been of the view that the Shadow Weave existed immediately when Mystryl created the Weave. Shar however did not become aware of it for a long time. When she did become aware of it, her ability to grasp and control it was not immediate and took much time and effort on her part. At the same time, she was also dabbling in shadow magic and seeing whether that could be harnessed for her own ends (trying to subvert the Weave "from within" by using an aspect of that construct that suited her area of personal expertise and power - of course, that proved to be a dead-end in terms of taking over Mystra's power).
Given this, I tend to think of the information from the Shadowstone novel as reflecting Shar's efforts to subvert Mystra by using Weave-based shadow magic as opposed to Shadow Weave magic.
This theory is of course complicated by some of the imprecise wording used in the novels, with Realms of Shadow being the chief culprit. It's clear that there was no clarity of approach for this topic when the authors were let loose for that anthology. If ever a Realms traffic cop was needed, it was then.
-- George Krashos
Magic of Faerūn says that Shar created the Shadow Weave...
The Shadow Weave is a big issue, though, because no one could ever agree on anything concerning it. One sourcebook says one thing, the next says something different, then a designer comes along and says something else... |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 11 Sep 2012 : 05:34:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Lord Bane
A god does care if he "loses" the living populace of Thay as faithfull because faithfull mean power for the god. It would be selfdefeating to let "things slide".
Ordinarily, yes. But the context in the book changed some conditions. For one, the whole world was at a mess that Bane could hardly care what happened to few of his followers in Thay. Here's his exact words from Undead, p. 205:
quote:
"Dead man, just for amusement's sake, let's imagine I might be willing to grant you all these extravagant favors. What could you possibly offer of comparable worth?"
"Thay. When I'm its sole sovereign, you'll be the only god worshiped within its borders."
"I've explained. With the higher worlds entering an era of strife and chaos, Faerun, let alone this little piece of it, is of little concern to me."
Szass Tam stared at the sheen of eyes in Bane's murky face. "I don't believe you. We inhabitants of the physical plane may seem like grubs and ants to the gods, but you need us. Our worship gives you strength."
"Yet I reject your terms."
(Highlight's mine.) |
Every beginning has an end. |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6688 Posts |
Posted - 11 Sep 2012 : 05:49:27
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If by "designer" you mean me, then you've mistaken me for someone else.
I was just musing in the absence of my sources, and as expected, the lore on the Shadow Weave appears somewhat contradictory.
I could come up with a lore fix, but to be honest, the Shadow Weave was about number #76 in the list of "great ideas" that I would have brought into the Realms. I have little fondness for it at all, especially when I see it get so much attention and fan-love. In my opinion there are far more interesting aspects of the Realms to discuss and dissect.
Then again, without the Shadow Weave and the return of a big, honking, fully-mythallared, bristling with spells, shadowstuff and magic, tarrasque-dwarfing flying city populated by thousands of individuals whose heights of spellhurling are legendary and never been matched, how could we argue about whether Telamont Tanthul is the most powerful spellcaster in the Realms? We couldn't. And that would be a huge loss to the fanbase.
-- George Krashos
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"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 11 Sep 2012 : 07:19:14
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quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
Then again, without the Shadow Weave and the return of a big, honking, fully-mythallared, bristling with spells, shadowstuff and magic, tarrasque-dwarfing flying city populated by thousands of individuals whose heights of spellhurling are legendary and never been matched, how could we argue about whether Telamont Tanthul is the most powerful spellcaster in the Realms? We couldn't. And that would be a huge loss to the fanbase.
-- George Krashos
While I like Shade, Telamont, Rivalen, Brennus, Melegaunt, and practically all the Shadovar princes, I think it's time that we get to see users of shadow magic outside Shade.
And many scribes would probably agree with this: Bring back Aeron Morieth!
The Imaskari and the durthans are also good candidates to be featured as shadow casters. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Lord Bane
Senior Scribe
Germany
479 Posts |
Posted - 11 Sep 2012 : 09:27:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Ordinarily, yes. But the context in the book changed some conditions. For one, the whole world was at a mess that Bane could hardly care what happened to few of his followers in Thay. Here's his exact words from Undead, p. 205:
quote:
"Dead man, just for amusement's sake, let's imagine I might be willing to grant you all these extravagant favors. What could you possibly offer of comparable worth?"
"Thay. When I'm its sole sovereign, you'll be the only god worshiped within its borders."
"I've explained. With the higher worlds entering an era of strife and chaos, Faerun, let alone this little piece of it, is of little concern to me."
Szass Tam stared at the sheen of eyes in Bane's murky face. "I don't believe you. We inhabitants of the physical plane may seem like grubs and ants to the gods, but you need us. Our worship gives you strength."
"Yet I reject your terms."
Szass Tam underlines what gives a god strenght, Bane does not deny it, he merely rejects the lichs plea for power. How i see it, Bane is concerned about the changes that the murder of Mystra will cause to the divine realms and selfpreservance is only natural, even for a god. That does not mean he does not care at all. He just has to deal with bigger issues at hand.
If the author really did intend to make Bane look like someone who didn“t care about increasing his power then i disagree with the author for it makes no sense for Bane passing up an opportunity to gain power. The Spellplague was the major event for Bane, Szass Tam and Thay were a minor occurance for him at that time.
You might want to contribute on the scroll i opened for your insight on Bane |
The driving force in the multiverse is evil, for it forces good to act. |
Edited by - Lord Bane on 11 Sep 2012 09:27:57 |
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Sightless
Senior Scribe
USA
608 Posts |
Posted - 11 Sep 2012 : 12:43:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Bane
A god does care if he "loses" the living populace of Thay as faithfull because faithfull mean power for the god. It would be selfdefeating to let "things slide".
Ordinarily, yes. But the context in the book changed some conditions. For one, the whole world was at a mess that Bane could hardly care what happened to few of his followers in Thay. Here's his exact words from Undead, p. 205:
quote:
"Dead man, just for amusement's sake, let's imagine I might be willing to grant you all these extravagant favors. What could you possibly offer of comparable worth?"
"Thay. When I'm its sole sovereign, you'll be the only god worshiped within its borders."
"I've explained. With the higher worlds entering an era of strife and chaos, Faerun, let alone this little piece of it, is of little concern to me."
Szass Tam stared at the sheen of eyes in Bane's murky face. "I don't believe you. We inhabitants of the physical plane may seem like grubs and ants to the gods, but you need us. Our worship gives you strength."
"Yet I reject your terms."
(Highlight's mine.)
In a negotiation one often engages in bluff, denial, and other such tactics to make true motives seem less, as to gain advantage. Thus, I wouldn't take the God's words here at face value. In fact, I suggest never taking a God's words at face value... ever. |
We choose to live a lie, when we see with, & not through the eye.
Every decision, no matter the evidence, is a leap of faith; if it were not, then it wouldn't be a choice at all. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 11 Sep 2012 : 16:54:26
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Actually, at first I thought THL was just picking a fight, but then I thought about it, which is why I edited my post. I think he may be correct, but without even doing the monumental amount of research that would require to prove, it does make me think of a few new things I hadn't considered before.
As much as I think the Shadow weave NOT being composed of shadow/Umbral energy is pretty damn silly, the concept does have its merits. If it is composed of Shadow energy it means that it conflicts with a lot of other stuff (for instance, why can you cast shadow spells from the normal Weave?) We've never come to a consensus about it, and this might help us explain it. What we have is two halves of primordial energy (Selune's and Shar's ) that formed into Mystryl, and Mystryl WAS the Weave. Ergo, she was composed of half of Selune and half of Shar (their energy), but nothing says the energy itself was Arcane and Shadow, AFAIK. That's just the assumption we all made. It is possible that the terminology stems from mortal understanding instead, and the names are derived from the 'magic of choice' associated with both goddesses. We could just as well call them the Yin and Yang, and it works out the same. I don't think either weave was truly separate anyway - I think post-Netheril, Shar simply was able to regain control of her half of the primordial energy; not re-absorb it, just be able to access it and draw from it.
I'm not sure about all of this, but it is a possibility I hadn't considered. Mystryl (The Weave) is like a House when people get divorced and each owns half. There really is no such thing as 'half a house' - you can't physically cut it in half and each live in it (you could, but you know what I am saying). When someone owns 'half a house', what that really means is that they are legally entitled to 50% of its value. I think the Weave might be more along those lines. Its pretty convoluted, but it might work as an explanation. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 11 Sep 2012 18:08:41 |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2511 Posts |
Posted - 11 Sep 2012 : 17:49:23
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quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
I disagree, I like Menzo. I think some good stories could be made there, especially if Vhaeraun and Eilistraee return.
Menzo as such is cool. If it would be given somewhat more attention than average, as one of more than a dozens of holy cities - on par with Athkatla etc. - that would be great.
Shamelessly milking it for fans of a single overstretched serial, though, tend to be annoying for those who aren't. quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
What about the Rise of the Underdark I've been hearing/reading rumors about, where Lolth is going to try and take over the Weave? Is that all going to happen before the Sundering?
...and the same applies to using Lolth as the Universal Fallback Villain.
That's what makes, indeed, "The Realms of Drizzt". |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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Lord Bane
Senior Scribe
Germany
479 Posts |
Posted - 11 Sep 2012 : 18:18:05
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| There are better "univseral fallback villain" gods than Lolth imo. |
The driving force in the multiverse is evil, for it forces good to act. |
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Eilserus
Master of Realmslore
USA
1446 Posts |
Posted - 11 Sep 2012 : 18:40:52
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This falls under my wishlist for 5E and the potential option of director cuts of products. I'd like to see a director's cut of Ed's original Undermountain. I'd definitely like to see his take on Durlag's Tower.
If there was one wish I could have for 5E, it would be Ed and a few of our dwarf-lore masters to tackle Tethyamar in a lore rich adventuring format like the original Undermountain boxed set, just with better maps. I'd take the dwarven city of Earthfast or even Sarbreen and some of the Lost Ways of Sarphil in a pinch, but Tethyamar is where it's at! |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 12 Sep 2012 : 00:27:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Sightless
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Bane
A god does care if he "loses" the living populace of Thay as faithfull because faithfull mean power for the god. It would be selfdefeating to let "things slide".
Ordinarily, yes. But the context in the book changed some conditions. For one, the whole world was at a mess that Bane could hardly care what happened to few of his followers in Thay. Here's his exact words from Undead, p. 205:
quote:
"Dead man, just for amusement's sake, let's imagine I might be willing to grant you all these extravagant favors. What could you possibly offer of comparable worth?"
"Thay. When I'm its sole sovereign, you'll be the only god worshiped within its borders."
"I've explained. With the higher worlds entering an era of strife and chaos, Faerun, let alone this little piece of it, is of little concern to me."
Szass Tam stared at the sheen of eyes in Bane's murky face. "I don't believe you. We inhabitants of the physical plane may seem like grubs and ants to the gods, but you need us. Our worship gives you strength."
"Yet I reject your terms."
(Highlight's mine.)
In a negotiation one often engages in bluff, denial, and other such tactics to make true motives seem less, as to gain advantage. Thus, I wouldn't take the God's words here at face value. In fact, I suggest never taking a God's words at face value... ever.
Maybe, but he did NOT agree to Szass Tam's terms (until the latter offered him another one, that is). So that in itself speaks of his motive. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 12 Sep 2012 : 00:35:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Lord Bane
There are better "univseral fallback villain" gods than Lolth imo.
I don't know - Lolth has been a 'big bad' even before the Realms was published. She's one of the original 'elemental evils', so she ranks up there with some other primordial-esque heavy weights.
Not saying I'm in love with the concept, but I can live with them making Lolth a more universal threat then just a Drow/Elven one.
Maybe instead of getting Mystra back, we are going to lose Shar instead. Not 'gone for good' but rather, fade into the background. That would leave magic to more amicable beings like Azuth, Savras, and Velsharoon. So no more Weaves - just the world it was meant to be before Selune and Shar had their spat.
If they give Corellon Arcane Magic as part of his portfolio, it would all make sense. Like I said, not really in love with that idea - just taking 'shots in the dark' at this point. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 12 Sep 2012 00:36:01 |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 12 Sep 2012 : 00:56:07
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Add this to my Wish List:
-The return of Trobriand, the Metal Mage.
-Delve deeper into metal magic, and create metallic constructs. Have a couple more of metal mages, probably Trobriand's apprentices, and/or competitors. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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The Red Walker
Great Reader
USA
3567 Posts |
Posted - 12 Sep 2012 : 03:18:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Bane
There are better "univseral fallback villain" gods than Lolth imo.
I don't know - Lolth has been a 'big bad' even before the Realms was published. She's one of the original 'elemental evils', so she ranks up there with some other primordial-esque heavy weights.
Not saying I'm in love with the concept, but I can live with them making Lolth a more universal threat then just a Drow/Elven one.
Maybe instead of getting Mystra back, we are going to lose Shar instead. Not 'gone for good' but rather, fade into the background. That would leave magic to more amicable beings like Azuth, Savras, and Velsharoon. So no more Weaves - just the world it was meant to be before Selune and Shar had their spat.
If they give Corellon Arcane Magic as part of his portfolio, it would all make sense. Like I said, not really in love with that idea - just taking 'shots in the dark' at this point.
spoiler for Eminster Enraged...
Mystra is already back. |
A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka
"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -
John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
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Edited by - The Red Walker on 12 Sep 2012 03:24:51 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 12 Sep 2012 : 03:40:32
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| Its been my experience Mystras don't last very long, and most certainly never survive a new edition. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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The Red Walker
Great Reader
USA
3567 Posts |
Posted - 12 Sep 2012 : 03:58:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Its been my experience Mystras don't last very long, and most certainly never survive a new edition.
Well I have a clue where we are heading....
Mystral then minus the last letter leads to
Mystra....now minus the last letter
Mystr....definitely Mister the next god of magic  |
A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka
"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -
John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
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Likes/Dislikes of 4E Realms, Wish List for 5E
