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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
 Posted - 07 Sep 2012 : 02:09:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Tarlyn
5e presentation of Bhaal
Lord of Murder
Intermediate Power
LE
Portfolio: Death
Symbol: A white, face-on human skull surrounded by a counter clockwise orbit of many streaming teardrops
From what I have gathered so far, that is a simplified presentation of how most returned deities will appear (that would be the extent of published info on Bhaal in 5e). Which in Bhaal's case, I don't think that would necessarily be a terrible thing, but I don't think posters arguing that deity x, y or z needs to be alive would view the above as an acceptable fix. I think people are saying I want to deity x represented in the realms and to actually have a presence in the official realms again.
Murder has been in Cyric's hands for a while now. Though it still makes me wonder why, I know a lot of FR still like the mad god and his mad, unpredictable machinations. As 5E looks like something that would try to cater to as many die-hard fans as possible, new and old alike, I doubt they'd get rid of Cyric. Or at the very least, not that soon.
Now on Death... While I like Bhaal, I feel that his personality is somewhat unfit for a God of Death. Death is supposed to be neutral. There's nothing evil in dying. In fact, some consider it a blessing, an emancipation from years of troubled existence, or a fulfillment of a mission that require decades to accomplish... It has a bad "face," yes. But it's not the only face it wears. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 07 Sep 2012 : 02:12:10
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| Well, if they DID, it would give an excuse to introduce some of the draconic races that they keep trying to shoe-horn in. PErsonally, I've always been perfectly happy with the old basic half-dragons from 2nd ed. But using scalyfolk/human crossbreeds leads to some interesting hybrids, depending onthe combination, and could make for some really fascinating characters. How would they grow up? What kind of personality would they have? And where would they live? It's like what happens with half-orcs, only more so! |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 07 Sep 2012 : 02:18:09
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quote:
Originally posted by The Red Walker
Well we were told at GenCon that was the plan, by Ed and many others....no more RSEs.......as long as the current managment is intact anyways!
That's why (and I'm not being pessimistic here) I'm on the "Let's wait and see" fence and not on the "Okay I'll go with it" one. The so-called 5E team led by Ed can change anytime. The plans are nearly all bright and shiny. But I'm holding further judgement until I actually see the output. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 07 Sep 2012 : 02:26:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
Well, if they DID, it would give an excuse to introduce some of the draconic races that they keep trying to shoe-horn in. PErsonally, I've always been perfectly happy with the old basic half-dragons from 2nd ed. But using scalyfolk/human crossbreeds leads to some interesting hybrids, depending onthe combination, and could make for some really fascinating characters. How would they grow up? What kind of personality would they have? And where would they live? It's like what happens with half-orcs, only more so!
Honestly? I'd be aghast! Not only because I'm a big of Netheril [and by extension, Halruaa (and Shade)] and dislike anything that has scales on their body, I think FR has had MORE THAN ENOUGH of scaly races to last a lifetime. Dragonborn, remember? And oh! It's not only FR, dragonborn are growing in numbers like roaches in Eberron too.
I know it's Dungeons & Dragons, and so it's kinda expected to see a bunch of reptilian races in almost very realm. But personally, I think there's more than enough of them these days. We don't need another one... [What are they gonna be called? Nethersnakes? ] |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 07 Sep 2012 : 02:55:48
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quote:
Originally posted by Lord Bane
Thay becoming a banite nation (though a more living majority one would have been nice)
Bane's priests are under the rule of the necromancers, and all of Thay's necromancers are ruled by Szass Tam (who is not under Bane, not for a couple of centuries, at least). So it's not a Banite nation. It's a necromancers' nation.
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Bane
Making the Red Wizards "non evil"
Source, please?
Are you by any chance referring to the Red Wizard-entrepreneurs selling whatnot in their (pathetic) out-of-Thay enclaves? While some of them may appear pleasant, gullible, sweet, and friendly to their customers, I bet that's just few of the masks they wear to further their (most likely) unsavory undertakings.
And if you're referring to the Red Wizards in general (in 4E), why, please enlighten me. From what I gleaned on the novels where they appeared and took major roles, I could spot not a single good/non-evil Red Wizard. Neutral maybe, but still with the tendency to do evil.
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Bane
Having the Netherese "dominate" northern Faerun.
A generalization that may be invalid. So far, they've only managed to conquer Sembia. And while they successfully swept Anauroch of its unpleasant denizens, that's kinda....expected, from a race who owned that land originally. They're just getting back what was lost to them. Sembia and Anauroch hardly constitute the whole of northern Faerun. I would only make that same observation/generalization of yours it Shade somehow managed to conquer two-thirds of the major powers in the north. As it stands, I wound not. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Lord Bane
Senior Scribe
Germany
479 Posts |
Posted - 07 Sep 2012 : 09:39:58
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Bane's priests are under the rule of the necromancers, and all of Thay's necromancers are ruled by Szass Tam (who is not under Bane, not for a couple of centuries, at least). So it's not a Banite nation. It's a necromancers' nation.
Since 4th Edition, Thay is a nation where only the Faith of Bane is allowed, stated by the Sourcebooks. Szass Tam owes his success to Bane granting him the ability to win over his adversaries and claim Thay as ruler. While Servants of Bane may or may not have a high standing in the ruling system of Thay, it is the sole faith and i should have been more precise that i meant a nation that worships Bane as only faith. Also who says that necromancers can“t be banites?
quote:
Source, please?
Are you by any chance referring to the Red Wizard-entrepreneurs selling whatnot in their (pathetic) out-of-Thay enclaves? While some of them may appear pleasant, gullible, sweet, and friendly to their customers, I bet that's just few of the masks they wear to further their (most likely) unsavory undertakings.
And if you're referring to the Red Wizards in general (in 4E), why, please enlighten me. From what I gleaned on the novels where they appeared and took major roles, I could spot not a single good/non-evil Red Wizard. Neutral maybe, but still with the tendency to do evil.
Again i may have been not precisely enough. With "non evil" i meant that they "lost their tradition" as i was indeed refering to the 4th Edition Red Wizards and that the enclaves not resembles, as you stated it the system, that Thay used to be. I do not percieve the Red Wizard an "evil" organisation with 4th Edition anymore. Personal evil tendings in novels may occure but i do get a different picture of them as a whole.
quote:
A generalization that may be invalid. So far, they've only managed to conquer Sembia. And while they successfully swept Anauroch of its unpleasant denizens, that's kinda....expected, from a race who owned that land originally. They're just getting back what was lost to them. Sembia and Anauroch hardly constitute the whole of northern Faerun. I would only make that same observation/generalization of yours it Shade somehow managed to conquer two-thirds of the major powers in the north. As it stands, I wound not.
They do pose a threat to northern Faerun due to their floating cities.
They conquered Sembia, made the Anauroch understanbly their home as you stated it and i don“t argue it. They wage a war with Thay at it“s borders and conduct plottings in the Neverwinter area. They are at odds with Cormyr and the Moonsea region. They pose a threat to Luruar and the Western Heartlands because due to their floatings cities having the ability to appear at any nation in faerun if they want.
Their magical prowess makes them deadly foes and the razing of Zhentil Keep, the Citadel of the Raven and the annihilation of Tilverton show what Shades can do with magic.
With their magical knowledge and their floating cities, which no other nation can bring up, leaving Selunarra out of the picture for now i dare to say that they are a major factor and their presence dominates the politics of northern faerun as the nations bordering the Empire of Shade have to worry that they may move one day and take them over.
So in my perception, the "Shade threat" dominates northern faerun. |
The driving force in the multiverse is evil, for it forces good to act. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 07 Sep 2012 : 20:54:22
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Who's worshiping Bane? Isn't it a nation of Undead now?
I can't see getting much 'soul sauce' from a zombie.
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
And then we have the Scaleyfolk - 'New Halruaa' would be created on the bones of the old Serpentes empire. The Halruaans would think the Yuan-ti and others long-gone (thanks to the devastation wrought by the Spellplague), but they could wrong - how cool would it be to have the serpentfolk secretly operating right beneath their feet, and infiltrating certain aspects of Halruaan society? "wheels within wheels" - its the stuff FR is built on.
You could even suggest that some of the native sneaky Halruaan survivors/profiteers have been secretly trading with those Serpentes enclaves left in the region. Their aim is to secure a more secure financial foundation for themselves in New Halruaa.
I like this. As long as they don't interbreed. Netheril has always be a humanocentric civilization. Given that Halruaa is a direct descendant of fallen Netheril, I would think it strange, really strange, if they somehow stoop to interbreeding with the stinky scaly folk.
This would be a point of contention.
Of course the Halruaans would not breed with 'filthy snakes'. However, Yuan-ti could still be managing to secretly infiltrate some families, because that is their style. The idea is that the scaleyfolk would have very long-range plans to take over Halruaa, eroding it very slowly from the inside.
Assume their is some sort of mark (scar, tattoo, embedded gem, etc) tha 'blocks' Halruaan magic from detecting their true nature, which is how they are operating beneath their noses. I would NOT make this something pervasive - its still very risky for the Scaleyfolk; should they be discovered the Halruaans would do everything in their considerable power to annihilate them. It should be some secret cabal, which just a few 'half breed' members thus far - they are very smart and very discreet. In the deep jungles, larger (hidden) clusters of scaleyfolk can still be found (you know - adventure sites - our bread & butter). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 07 Sep 2012 21:03:11 |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 07 Sep 2012 : 21:00:01
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| Maybe Bane has the souls of those who inhabited the bodies before they were turned into zombies? |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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The Red Walker
Great Reader
USA
3567 Posts |
Posted - 07 Sep 2012 : 21:03:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Who's worshiping Bane? Isn't it a nation of Undead now?
I can't see getting much 'soul sauce' from a zombie.
Thats the only "issue" I had with the Haunted Lands trilogy....
Wtf? Why would Bane make such a one sided deal??? the only prize for him is so far into the future as to render it almost valueless |
A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka
"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -
John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 07 Sep 2012 : 21:04:13
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quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
Maybe Bane has the souls of those who inhabited the bodies before they were turned into zombies?
That could be, but my assumption was that Szass Tam got all that power. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Sightless
Senior Scribe
USA
608 Posts |
Posted - 07 Sep 2012 : 21:19:48
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
yup.
I don't undertsand why anything needs to be shoe-horned into the Realms. We are talking about a world with countless portals to other worlds. If you want to use something, you don't need an explanation for it.
For instance, all the 'how can I have a Warforged in the realms' threads used to irk me a bit, because I was like, "if you want a Warforge, then just say its a Warforged... from Eberron". Whats the problem with that? I can think of at least three other meta-settings that could allow for this (PS, SJ, & RL), aside from Toril's most basic premise of multiversal inter-connectivity.
FR has at least one canon Newhon Ghoul. That means if a player wants to run a Newhon Ghoul in FR, they should be allowed to do so (if the DM and other players are okay with that). There is no reason why anyone would have to create entire FR groups of them, and certainly no reason to give them their own nation. This was a major (bad) premise accepted by 4e designers - that in order to have some core concept in FR, they had to shoe-horn the entire thing into FR. I just don't understand why they thought that was necessary.
And when they said the portal network didn't work anymore, that was just (bad) icing on the cake. Here you have the ultimate tool to explain why anything is where it is, and you nerf it on-purpose... whats with that?
I have never had a problem with allowing players to use most anything in my games, so long as they had a plausible back-story. That was their job, not mine (and certainly not the designers). You want to play a drow, fine - just explain to me how he/she has stayed alive this long. Then again, I have always been of the school that RP begins before the first session.
*grammar edit
I approve this message. |
We choose to live a lie, when we see with, & not through the eye.
Every decision, no matter the evidence, is a leap of faith; if it were not, then it wouldn't be a choice at all. |
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Lord Bane
Senior Scribe
Germany
479 Posts |
Posted - 07 Sep 2012 : 21:24:16
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quote:
Originally posted by The Red Walker
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Who's worshiping Bane? Isn't it a nation of Undead now?
I can't see getting much 'soul sauce' from a zombie.
Thats the only "issue" I had with the Haunted Lands trilogy....
Wtf? Why would Bane make such a one sided deal??? the only prize for him is so far into the future as to render it almost valueless
Thay still has a living populace and they are scared of Szass Tam. Fear is in the portofolio of Bane and thus Szass Tam by being a tyrannical ruler who spreads fear is empowering Bane, also Gods have time, they are immortal and what is 1000 years to them?
Bane will get Szass Tams soul, no matter if the 1000 years pass or if he is destroyed before that time is up, in the end the Black Hand gets a very powerfull caster
Also, this is just a thought of mine, none of the deities currently has the portofolio of undeath and since Szass Tam is the most prominent Necromancer in the realms from my knowledge (leaving the Host Tower liches, the Twitsted Rune and Larloch aside) and with Bane having the "command" over Szass Tam and his hordes of undead he could be aiming to gain Undead to his portofolio aswell, thus increasing his power even further. |
The driving force in the multiverse is evil, for it forces good to act. |
Edited by - Lord Bane on 07 Sep 2012 21:37:49 |
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combatmedic
Senior Scribe
USA
428 Posts |
Posted - 07 Sep 2012 : 21:43:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
Maybe Bane has the souls of those who inhabited the bodies before they were turned into zombies?
That could be, but my assumption was that Szass Tam got all that power.
Maybe the power is just 'on loan' from Bane?
I'm guessing the fire-worshippers wouldn't be pleased by the revolution that took place in Thay. Are there any Kossuthian zealots who sneak into Thay and burn stuff down, torch zombies, etc to avenge their cult's losses at the hands of Szass Tam and the Banites?
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YMMV= Your Mileage May Vary. I'm putting it here so I don't have to type it in every other post. :) |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12194 Posts |
Posted - 07 Sep 2012 : 21:48:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Lord Bane
quote:
Originally posted by The Red Walker
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Who's worshiping Bane? Isn't it a nation of Undead now?
I can't see getting much 'soul sauce' from a zombie.
Thats the only "issue" I had with the Haunted Lands trilogy....
Wtf? Why would Bane make such a one sided deal??? the only prize for him is so far into the future as to render it almost valueless
Thay still has a living populace and they are scared of Szass Tam. Fear is in the portofolio of Bane and thus Szass Tam by being a tyrannical ruler who spreads fear is empowering Bane, also Gods have time, they are immortal and what is 1000 years to them?
Bane will get Szass Tams soul, no matter if the 1000 years pass or if he is destroyed before that time is up, in the end the Black Hand gets a very powerfull caster
Also, this is just a thought of mine, none of the deities currently has the portofolio of undeath and since Szass Tam is the most prominent Necromancer in the realms from my knowledge (leaving the Host Tower liches, the Twitsted Rune and Larloch aside) and with Bane having the "command" over Szass Tam and his hordes of undead he could be aiming to gain Undead to his portofolio aswell, thus increasing his power even further.
What is 1000 years to Bane? Well, considering he only became a god around -300'ish DR.... he's only about 1700 years of being a god. So, that's a long time away, comparative... considering he's already been killed at least once. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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The Hidden Lord
Learned Scribe
148 Posts |
Posted - 07 Sep 2012 : 21:56:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Who's worshiping Bane? Isn't it a nation of Undead now?
This is a popular misconception, promulgated mostly by fan-sites and those who have not actually read the era-transition novels and the 4e campaign materials.
Of the 135,000 denizens of Thaymount and those lands the zulkirs control in 1485 DR, 60,000-70,000 are living, breathing, intelligent beings.
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Lord Bane
Senior Scribe
Germany
479 Posts |
Posted - 07 Sep 2012 : 22:05:47
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I personally do not think that Szass Tam will rule 1000 years and i doubt Bane is counting on it also. Didn“t the "contract" say that Bane gives him the power to conquer Thay and then he call in his "payment" after 1000 years? Szass Tam conquered Thay, Banes part of the deal is fulfilled, even if the lich gets destroyed now, Bane ends up his soul.
Also if we look at politics and Thay is waging war with the Netherese, it would give the Church of Bane time to build up strenght to strike back at the Shades for criplinging the Zhentarim in the Moonsea.
Of course we could be all surprised and Mystra comes back and wipes the enclaves out of the sky to repay Shar for her hand in murdering her.  |
The driving force in the multiverse is evil, for it forces good to act. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 07 Sep 2012 : 22:29:53
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@Hidden Lord - Thank you for the clarification. 
I think an even better premise (more fitting) would be for some of her old worshipers (Chosen?) to get together and use the Mythalar to empower Mytra's return.
Think about it: The original Thultanthar Mythallar had to have been built with 'Whole' (Raw) magic - the kind that existed before Karsus' fall. This magic (according to RotAW) is made up of both Arcane energy and Umbral (shadow) energy. Using the mythallar (and destroying Shade in the process) would be an ironic way to not only bring back the goddess of magic, but bring back the original goddess of magic. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 07 Sep 2012 22:30:18 |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 08 Sep 2012 : 03:06:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
Maybe Bane has the souls of those who inhabited the bodies before they were turned into zombies?
That could be, but my assumption was that Szass Tam got all that power.
Lol, I was mostly trying to be humorous ^^; |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 08 Sep 2012 : 06:16:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Lord Bane
Since 4th Edition, Thay is a nation where only the Faith of Bane is allowed, stated by the Sourcebooks. Szass Tam owes his success to Bane granting him the ability to win over his adversaries and claim Thay as ruler. While Servants of Bane may or may not have a high standing in the ruling system of Thay, it is the sole faith and i should have been more precise that i meant a nation that worships Bane as only faith. Also who says that necromancers can“t be banites?
Political power and greater number of population ultimately give the distinctive attribute of a nation. For instance, (Old) Netheril is always deemed as a human empire because those in power were humans, despite the big population of other races under their rule, particularly those in Low Netheril. Evareska is generally known as an elven nation, because obviously its population constitutes mainly of elves.
While the Banites hold some political influence in Thay, they still bow to their Red Wizard superiors. Besides, Thay has always been a magocracy, not theocracy. Sometimes it's easy to mistake High Priests of various faiths as equals/peers of the Zulkirs, but that's simply it---a mistake. As an example to emphasize my point: Iphegor Nath, High Flamelord of the Church of Kossuth, was once wisely reminded of his place by Nevron (as seen below).
quote:
A scene from Undead, p. 232:
A shimmer of yellow flame crawling on his crown and shoulders, Iphegor Nath rose from his seat. "I've already explained," he said, "that the Firelord wishes us to assail the necromancers relentlessly."
"As we will," Nevron said, "but guided by a prudent strategy."
"If you mean to pass up an opportunity to smash the legions of High Thay"
"They'll die before the walls of Eltabbar," Nevron said. "Now then. We always benefit from your wisdom, Your Omniscience, but the rulers of Thay have made their decision. That means your role is to determine how your church can best support our strategy."
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Bane
Again i may have been not precisely enough. With "non evil" i meant that they "lost their tradition" as i was indeed refering to the 4th Edition Red Wizards and that the enclaves not resembles, as you stated it the system, that Thay used to be. I do not percieve the Red Wizard an "evil" organisation with 4th Edition anymore.
The Red Wizards who are demoted to merchants are not exactly non-evil. I'm yet to see a RW-merchant who's goodly. And if they appear to be so, I would say it's an act. In the first place, how can a merchant attract customers if he is menacing?
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Bane
Personal evil tendings in novels may occure but i do get a different picture of them as a whole.
You have to be specific. May I suggest you site some examples? Otherwise, it'll appear like a baseless generalization. The Red Wizards I encountered in various novels---the zulkirs and their lackeys in The Haunted Lands; Seren in The Abolethic Sovereignty; Marek Rymut, his classmates, teachers, and superiors in The Watercourse Trilogy---are anything but non-evil. Samas Kul is probably the one who's close to being non-evil, yet not quite. When the ship is sinking, what kind of man would rather save his cache of gold than his crew? |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 08 Sep 2012 : 06:21:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Who's worshiping Bane? Isn't it a nation of Undead now?
Who would control Szass Tam's undead army if everyone is undead? Naturally, there are living Red Wizards. And who would provide the Red Wizards their "bodily" needs if everyone else is undead? Naturally, there are living common people.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
Maybe Bane has the souls of those who inhabited the bodies before they were turned into zombies?
That could be, but my assumption was that Szass Tam got all that power.
It wasn't in their contract that Szass Tam should give the souls of the living before they're turned into undead. And Szass Tam needs all sources of magic/energy he can tap to fuel his Dread Rings. So, I doubt he'd be so generous as to give Bane those poor, unfortunate souls. |
Every beginning has an end. |
Edited by - Dennis on 08 Sep 2012 06:47:04 |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 08 Sep 2012 : 06:27:23
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| Not that they'd be much better off in Bane's realm |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 08 Sep 2012 : 06:38:41
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quote:
Originally posted by The Red Walker
Why would Bane make such a one sided deal??? the only prize for him is so far into the future as to render it almost valueless.
I raised similar question to Ed. And he said (I paraphrase), mortals will never understand how gods think. What would look to mortals an unfair bargain can be proven otherwise. Besides, who knows Bane is simply amusing himself? Or, that he trusts that Szass Tam would be a very valuable tool to further his schemes. And let's not forget that gods view time quite differently than even the long-lived mortal races in Toril. What's millennia to Torilians can be a blink of an eye to the gods.
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Bane
Also, this is just a thought of mine, none of the deities currently has the portofolio of undeath and since Szass Tam is the most prominent Necromancer in the realms from my knowledge (leaving the Host Tower liches, the Twitsted Rune and Larloch aside) and with Bane having the "command" over Szass Tam and his hordes of undead he could be aiming to gain Undead to his portofolio aswell, thus increasing his power even further.
An intriguing idea. Though one would ask why wouldn't he choose a more powerful lich instead, like Larloch and Aumvor.
quote:
Originally posted by combatmedic
I'm guessing the fire-worshippers wouldn't be pleased by the revolution that took place in Thay. Are there any Kossuthian zealots who sneak into Thay and burn stuff down, torch zombies, etc to avenge their cult's losses at the hands of Szass Tam and the Banites?
Not only displeased, but after Szass Tam (indirectly) slaughtered all the priests of Kossuth, they should be rightfully angry. |
Every beginning has an end. |
Edited by - Dennis on 08 Sep 2012 06:45:34 |
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Lord Bane
Senior Scribe
Germany
479 Posts |
Posted - 08 Sep 2012 : 13:31:57
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The Watercourse Trilogy is set pre-spellplague. It“s last novel ends the year the Haunted Lands trilogy starts and the Haunted Lands Trilogy deals with Szass Tams takeover of Thay with it“s last novel ending in the 1470`s no? The Abolethic Sovereignty is set before the 1400`s.
I speak of the 1479 Red Wizards who are refugees from their own land, they may have a hatred for Szass Tam who ousted them and took power for himself but of course one could claim every Zulkir could have attempted it because that they are powerhungry wizards and power, especially magical one is status in Thay. I do not argue that red wizards can be evil, they are, i merely do not get the impression that those generations who have not witnessed the downfall of the zulkirs and are now wear the robes have much in common with the evil organisation they used to be. They are not in an enviorment that forces them to be void of pity in order to gain status and power and they have no greater authority in their enclaves that swats their fingers like the Zulkirs in Thay did and they do know what their tradition has caused, them living in enclaves and away from their homeland. Are there evil red wizards? Yes. Are they all evil? Not necessarily, stating so would be an generalisation and unless we get insight on how the enclaves work in the forwarded timeline, we may argue over it again and again.
My personal feeling, the Red Wizards are not the evil group they used to be and i do not percieve them as an evil threat to Faerun anymore. They lost much of their power.
As for Aumvor or Larloch, Aumvor likes to keep to himself and even though he is powerfull, i do not see him as an despot that Szass Tam is, evil yes but not an expansionist tyrant. Larloch on the other hand, was "Mystras boy", she did allow him to work the way he did and he did some tasks for her. Though i“d love to see Larloch pledge his loyalty to Bane i do not think he would do so.
Both of them do not rule over a nation with living beings aside their undead ones. Szass Tam on the other hand does.
I never questioned that the Banites serve the Red Wizards in charge of Szass Tams realm, i merely say that a necromancer can be a banite and given the fact that the only allowed worship in Thay is that of Bane, i can clearly see the ruling necromancers being of banite faith aswell or the Church of Bane would take steps to bring them to the worship of Bane.
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The driving force in the multiverse is evil, for it forces good to act. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 09 Sep 2012 : 02:03:21
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Nothing in canon states that some, most, or all of Thay's necromancers are Banites. Theurgy has never been popular in Thay. Practices in the arcane and divine magic have always been separate. And remember, Szass Tam still maintains a mental link to his necromancer-lackeys, and his mental leash on them is nigh-absolute. Given that he never bows before any god, I doubt he'd let his necromancers do otherwise. The necromancers may be tempted to seek Bane's blessing, but Szass Tam would expunge it before they even realize what they're feeling. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12194 Posts |
Posted - 09 Sep 2012 : 02:39:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Nothing in canon states that some, most, or all of Thay's necromancers are Banites. Theurgy has never been popular in Thay. Practices in the arcane and divine magic have always been separate. And remember, Szass Tam still maintains a mental link to his necromancer-lackeys, and his mental leash on them is nigh-absolute. Given that he never bows before any god, I doubt he'd let his necromancers do otherwise. The necromancers may be tempted to seek Bane's blessing, but Szass Tam would expunge it before they even realize what they're feeling.
I'll disagree here. People like to be able to be resurrected. In FR, you don't worship a deity.. you don't get resurrected. If the state religion of Thay is now Bane, then the guy is right... those necromancers would be worshipping Bane OR secretly worshipping another deity. This was another thing I hated about 4th edition. Thay was the ULTIMATE melting pot when it came to religions (sure, Bane, Kossuth, and Velsharoon (as Myrkul's replacement... though some would mutter about him being a former renegade red wizard) held strong followings). Then all of a sudden they had a state religion, which was what they'd broken away from in the first place in forming their country. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 09 Sep 2012 : 03:40:11
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Nothing in canon states that some, most, or all of Thay's necromancers are Banites. Theurgy has never been popular in Thay. Practices in the arcane and divine magic have always been separate. And remember, Szass Tam still maintains a mental link to his necromancer-lackeys, and his mental leash on them is nigh-absolute. Given that he never bows before any god, I doubt he'd let his necromancers do otherwise. The necromancers may be tempted to seek Bane's blessing, but Szass Tam would expunge it before they even realize what they're feeling.
I'll disagree here. People like to be able to be resurrected.
Why resort to resurrection and subject yourself to the whims of a fickle god when you yourself can use arcane magic to prolong your existence or return to life (after your "untimely" death) as a lich or another form of undead? And, I still maintain that whatever temptation the necromancers may feel towards embracing Bane, Szass Tam would be adamant in stopping it. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 09 Sep 2012 : 09:19:04
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| it's similar to the Shades worshipping Shar |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 09 Sep 2012 : 09:37:42
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No, it's not. Szass Tam had been clear on his part of the bargain. He'd take a portion of Bane's power in exchange for his lifetime of servitude after 1000 years. Until then, he won't bow to Bane. And by extension, he wouldn't allow his servants to be subservient to the Dark Lord either.
The Shadovar's "contract" or bargain, if one can call it that, was inevitable. Shar controls the Shadow Weave, and claims everyone who dares tap it her subjects. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Lord Bane
Senior Scribe
Germany
479 Posts |
Posted - 09 Sep 2012 : 12:27:32
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If Szass Tam would act actively against his inferiors worshipping Bane then the Church of Bane would take actions to stop those moves. They are not beholden to the Zulkir of Necromancy but Bane himself and any move against the faith of Bane is met with reprisal, it can take time but it will eventually come for Banes dogma states:
"Serve no one but Bane. Fear him always and make others fear him even more than you do. The Black Hand always strikes down those who stand against it in the end. Defy Bane and die - or in death find loyalty to him, for he shall compel it. Submit to the word of Bane as uttered by his ranking clergy, since true power can only be gained through service to him. Spread the dark fear of Bane. It is the doom of those who do not follow him to let power slip through their hands. Those who cross the Black Hand meet their dooms earlier and more harshly than those who worship other deities."
In this Dogma you can see that resistance against Bane is met with death and if you do not follow Bane you lose your power and if you follow Bane and cross him your bound to some very unpleasent results on your end. You stated gods can be fickle and Bane would strip Szass Tam of his power if the lich opposed Banes faith with the power he got from Bane in first place. Bane is not stupid. |
The driving force in the multiverse is evil, for it forces good to act. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 09 Sep 2012 : 19:41:24
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This thread is starting to get me to hate Thay.
Connections and likes:
I like the Warlock Knights of Vassa, but I wouldn't mind seeing them get re-tooled. I have no problem with primordials, but apparently lots of other people do. I have some thoughts about a compromise, but I don't really know enough about 4e - is that primordial dead, or is he just 'stuck' somehow?
Eminence of Araunt: If Myrkul is coming back, it might be interesting to connect him to this organization.
Other Races: Blend the 'new' races in better with FR. I realize none of them are truly new; its a damn shame the designers didn't realize that. Giving them there own realms within Faerūn makes the whole 'Returned Abeir' thing kinda pointless (which is why I think Returned Abeir/Laerakond was a last-minute add - everything they needed to do had already been added to the realms-proper). All they needed to do was use Laerakond and that would have explained where all those critters came form in 4e. In other words, there was no reason to force-fit entire nations onto the Faerūn map - 4e became redundant with itself.
Dragon-ruled nations: We now have way too many of those. Seems to me someone brought the idea up at a meeting, and everyone ran in a different direction with it. I wouldn't mind one such nation in Faerūn, IF they get rid of Returned Abeir. Which brings me to...
Returned Abeir: I'd prefer they merge it with old Maztica, because I think an amalgam of the two would be whole 'nother level of awesome. Unfortunately, I do not think they have the time, resources, or where-withal to bother with non-Faerūnian places (so 5e will be like 3e & 4e in that regard). If they just get rid of it, then so be it (which would bring us right back to our original Maztica dilemma). If they keep it as-is, then I would say they need to get rid of all the Abeir-like regions in Faerūn (because they aren't needed). That means the 'dragon-ruled' Murghom and Semphar (I've already discussed what to do with those elsewhere), as well as all those 4e racial regions.
Moving forward, every time a 'new' race comes out in some splat - even if its a non-FR book - give us an "In the Realms..." article on how to use it. YES, I am aware that people can do this for themselves, but for whatever reason, D&D players these days seem to need to be led like sheep. Eytan Berstein is the guy for this sort of treatment.
*Ack* - I had to self-edit. I found myself slipping into 'rules wishlist' mode, and this isn't the appropriate thread. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Likes/Dislikes of 4E Realms, Wish List for 5E
