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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

Having Halruaa back is a must, for me.

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Originally posted by sleyvas

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Originally posted by Markustay

Actually, considering who and what they are, why do they even need a physical realm within the Realms? Why couldn't they have had an 'emergency contingency' that shunted most of their settlements and people into a previously created demi-plane?

In that way, the Halruaan nation doesn't have to be 'on the map' - its always 'right there, next to you".

If people want something a little more substantial, then give the Halruaans the old Thayan Enclaves - it makes more sense for them to be running that show anyway. That way, no-one would know where the Halruaan homeland is now (and not suspect that all the enclaves are directly connected to it in a pocket-plane).

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Yeah, that would possibly make sense. The one thing you'd need to do to make it not "taste bad" would be to put it out that its small pockets of Halruaans and that they're learning from the actions of Thay. Whether they're on the moon, on islands, in a demiplane, in Nimbral.... they and their enclaves should be about selling cheap, common magic... meanwhile they may actually be gathering special magics.

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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

Having Halruaa back is a must, for me.

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Originally posted by The Hidden Lord

Why would anyone want to turn Halrua into a mish-mash of survivor states when, in 4e, it is clear that Halrua *survived* the Spellplague?

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Originally posted by Markustay

Was Halruaa great? Yes. Did anyone use it? Apparently not.

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Originally posted by Markustay

Turning 5e back into a clone of 1e/2e would recreate the (perceived) problems that have brought us here to begin with.

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Originally posted by Markustay

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Originally posted by sleyvas

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Originally posted by Markustay

Actually, considering who and what they are, why do they even need a physical realm within the Realms? Why couldn't they have had an 'emergency contingency' that shunted most of their settlements and people into a previously created demi-plane?

In that way, the Halruaan nation doesn't have to be 'on the map' - its always 'right there, next to you".

If people want something a little more substantial, then give the Halruaans the old Thayan Enclaves - it makes more sense for them to be running that show anyway. That way, no-one would know where the Halruaan homeland is now (and not suspect that all the enclaves are directly connected to it in a pocket-plane).

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Yeah, that would possibly make sense. The one thing you'd need to do to make it not "taste bad" would be to put it out that its small pockets of Halruaans and that they're learning from the actions of Thay. Whether they're on the moon, on islands, in a demiplane, in Nimbral.... they and their enclaves should be about selling cheap, common magic... meanwhile they may actually be gathering special magics.

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I'm leaning toward a co-operation thing post-plague. We have two powerful groups of mages that have become 'men without a country' (and women). Suppose the Halruaans survivors (the ones that were 'far from home'?) approached the Thayan ex-patraites, and formed an alliance? No Thay or Halruaa anymore - more of a 'Magi Confederacy'. However, it wouldn't be setup with a central country - it would operate more like the Eminence of Araunt: The nation would be made-up of all the enclaves (and maybe a pocket-dimension, as discussed earlier, just so their is central place where the leaders could meet).

This could still be coupled with everything else I have discussed above (and elsewhere). The combination of ex-Red Wizards into Halruaan society would give them all a much more 'neutral' tone - they'd become more like one of Faerūn's 'secret societies' then a true nation.

We could still have a Halruaa survivor-state on one of those islands, which would have little or nothing to do with the ones that joined the enclaves. We could have it all. Why just re-hash what has gone before? In the 5e era, everything should be more synergistic, just as it is in the RW. Nations and peoples evolve, and old animosities are put aside for survival. We don't need to have Thay and Halruaa back, when we could use the survivors to form a half dozen new groups (and still keep a couple true to the core principle).

Seriously, why is is assumed that after Thay was obliterated the Thayans would all work together? Thats not even in-character! Same for the Halruaans - they are individuals. Netherese, Imaskar, etc, etc - after such a huge span of time, and with all the catastrophes and other changes (like magic), these groups would all splinter into other groups. Old rivalries would flare-up, power-grabs would be made, etc. Lets have a wee bit of realism in the Realms, eh?

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Originally posted by Markustay

And then we have the Scaleyfolk - 'New Halruaa' would be created on the bones of the old Serpentes empire. The Halruaans would think the Yuan-ti and others long-gone (thanks to the devastation wrought by the Spellplague), but they could wrong - how cool would it be to have the serpentfolk secretly operating right beneath their feet, and infiltrating certain aspects of Halruaan society? "wheels within wheels" - its the stuff FR is built on.

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Originally posted by Markustay

Yeah, they've told us some of what they plan with the cosmology (the deities, specifically), but nothing in regards to the maps, other then 'they will be using the 1e maps to build the new setting'. That could mean a lot of things.

The 1e maps were butt-ugly - I don't want those again. I liked the 3e art the best (obviously), but I preferred the 1e/2e layout. This means i want an amalgam of 1e/2e and 3e (and perhaps some of 4e). I don't just want a new map of the OGB setting.

Actually... I do want that!

That could be the "presenting The Forgotten Realms" poster-map used in ads and what not. Bright colors - *cough* Mike Shley *cough* and lots and lots of detail. I think something along those lines would really work well for FR - we need it to 'pop'.

On the other hand, a 5e era (post-4e) map SHOULD include the changes wrought by the spellplague. In that era, I wouldn't want to see all the changes just get 'hand waved' (some, like the underchasm, YES - it looks like someone spilled coffee on the map). For that era, I would want to see an amalgam of some of the 4e changes, combined with the earlier map I mentioned above (an amalagm of the first three editions), AND a couple of new things (stuff that neither 1e/2e/3e got right, nor 4e).

5e products should be about all eras, which is their stated goal. However, there is still going to be that 'ugly baby' at the end of the road. I just think the sucker needs a bit of plastic surgery is all.

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Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie

I don't think WotC is going to outline specifically which deities are back. Or, more accurately, they won't list which deities AREN'T back. Instead, we'll have a core of deities who are definitely there (or at least their churches are active and popular), and the suggestion that many other deities exist, in one form or another. We'll see churches of minor or obscure deities, characters who call themselves champions of this god or that goddess, etc. But the last thing we should see is a definitive statement that "these deities are available, these deities are still dead." Not that you need WotC's permission to change things, but if they leave it gray, people can innovate without contradicting established canon. (I myself am currently running a campaign about the resurrection of Eilistraee and Vhaeraun, for instance.)

If it were me (and I'm not saying WotC will do this), the deities that make the cut into AO's new Tablets of Fate will be those who have--for one reason or another--continued to exist. Perhaps it's a traditionalist family or a cult that keeps worshiping a "slain" deity such as Helm, so the deity is revived. Perhaps the deity has maintained itself through the use of artifacts, like Myrkul and the Crown of Thorns. Or perhaps mortals are still carrying fragments of the deity's power, such as Mystra and her remaining Chosen.

(I think also there's room to bring back the Seven Sisters, if a DM is interested in doing so.)

I think the point is that AO is done with the gods and their petty schemes killing each other. Moving forward, he wants his Realmspace to have less turbulence. Once the deities are listed on the Tablets of Fate, they exist--unless somehow AO concedes to write them out.

Cheers

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Originally posted by CorellonsDevout

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Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie

I don't think WotC is going to outline specifically which deities are back. Or, more accurately, they won't list which deities AREN'T back. Instead, we'll have a core of deities who are definitely there (or at least their churches are active and popular), and the suggestion that many other deities exist, in one form or another. We'll see churches of minor or obscure deities, characters who call themselves champions of this god or that goddess, etc. But the last thing we should see is a definitive statement that "these deities are available, these deities are still dead." Not that you need WotC's permission to change things, but if they leave it gray, people can innovate without contradicting established canon. (I myself am currently running a campaign about the resurrection of Eilistraee and Vhaeraun, for instance.)

If it were me (and I'm not saying WotC will do this), the deities that make the cut into AO's new Tablets of Fate will be those who have--for one reason or another--continued to exist. Perhaps it's a traditionalist family or a cult that keeps worshiping a "slain" deity such as Helm, so the deity is revived. Perhaps the deity has maintained itself through the use of artifacts, like Myrkul and the Crown of Thorns. Or perhaps mortals are still carrying fragments of the deity's power, such as Mystra and her remaining Chosen.

(I think also there's room to bring back the Seven Sisters, if a DM is interested in doing so.)

I think the point is that AO is done with the gods and their petty schemes killing each other. Moving forward, he wants his Realmspace to have less turbulence. Once the deities are listed on the Tablets of Fate, they exist--unless somehow AO concedes to write them out.

Cheers

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I'd actually like a definate answer of which deities are back and which aren't. IMO, Ao can still say "no more petty squabbling" and list the deities and their roles on the Tablets of Fate. This, I think, pretains particularly to the novels, because D&D players can choose which deities (if any), they want to include in their compaign, but the novels are a bit different. For example, if there is still question of whether or not Vhaeraun and Eilistraee are brought back, since their followers know they are dead, but are suddenly following them again, that doesn't really...make sense to me. Granted, Shadowbane is following Helm, a dead god, but Helm was connected to the Triad, if not actually -of- the Triad--and Torm now, since he is the Threefold God--so if a follower of Helm were to die, his or her soul would probably be taken in by Torm (though of course I don't know your plans for Kalen). But if a follower of Vhaeraun and Eilistraee were to die but in fact both drow were still dead, his or her soul would probably go to Lolth, and the Spider Queen would probably punish them eternally--though she does kind of do that anyway. And there were the events in Lady Penitent with the "redeemed drow" to consider. Even if the gods are going to interfere less than before, we--and followers--can still know which ones are back, can't we/they? Suddenly having such things up in the air does sound like a retcon, or at least a drastic change and de-realming the Realms to me. And for the core deities that have always been around, shouldn't we and followers know who is alive and who is dead?

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Originally posted by The Red Walker

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Originally posted by CorellonsDevout

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Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie

I don't think WotC is going to outline specifically which deities are back. Or, more accurately, they won't list which deities AREN'T back. Instead, we'll have a core of deities who are definitely there (or at least their churches are active and popular), and the suggestion that many other deities exist, in one form or another. We'll see churches of minor or obscure deities, characters who call themselves champions of this god or that goddess, etc. But the last thing we should see is a definitive statement that "these deities are available, these deities are still dead." Not that you need WotC's permission to change things, but if they leave it gray, people can innovate without contradicting established canon. (I myself am currently running a campaign about the resurrection of Eilistraee and Vhaeraun, for instance.)

If it were me (and I'm not saying WotC will do this), the deities that make the cut into AO's new Tablets of Fate will be those who have--for one reason or another--continued to exist. Perhaps it's a traditionalist family or a cult that keeps worshiping a "slain" deity such as Helm, so the deity is revived. Perhaps the deity has maintained itself through the use of artifacts, like Myrkul and the Crown of Thorns. Or perhaps mortals are still carrying fragments of the deity's power, such as Mystra and her remaining Chosen.

(I think also there's room to bring back the Seven Sisters, if a DM is interested in doing so.)

I think the point is that AO is done with the gods and their petty schemes killing each other. Moving forward, he wants his Realmspace to have less turbulence. Once the deities are listed on the Tablets of Fate, they exist--unless somehow AO concedes to write them out.

Cheers

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I'd actually like a definate answer of which deities are back and which aren't. IMO, Ao can still say "no more petty squabbling" and list the deities and their roles on the Tablets of Fate. This, I think, pretains particularly to the novels, because D&D players can choose which deities (if any), they want to include in their compaign, but the novels are a bit different. For example, if there is still question of whether or not Vhaeraun and Eilistraee are brought back, since their followers know they are dead, but are suddenly following them again, that doesn't really...make sense to me. Granted, Shadowbane is following Helm, a dead god, but Helm was connected to the Triad, if not actually -of- the Triad--and Torm now, since he is the Threefold God--so if a follower of Helm were to die, his or her soul would probably be taken in by Torm (though of course I don't know your plans for Kalen). But if a follower of Vhaeraun and Eilistraee were to die but in fact both drow were still dead, his or her soul would probably go to Lolth, and the Spider Queen would probably punish them eternally--though she does kind of do that anyway. And there were the events in Lady Penitent with the "redeemed drow" to consider. Even if the gods are going to interfere less than before, we--and followers--can still know which ones are back, can't we/they? Suddenly having such things up in the air does sound like a retcon, or at least a drastic change and de-realming the Realms to me. And for the core deities that have always been around, shouldn't we and followers know who is alive and who is dead?

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Well at GenCon we were told they are all coming back......but there not all going to get a "spotlight" shone on them. I would take that to mean any and all of the old gods are fair game for novels. We pretty much know that Mystra, helm, mask are on their way back...so it's just a matter of time.

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Originally posted by CorellonsDevout

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Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie

I don't think WotC is going to outline specifically which deities are back. Or, more accurately, they won't list which deities AREN'T back. Instead, we'll have a core of deities who are definitely there (or at least their churches are active and popular), and the suggestion that many other deities exist, in one form or another. We'll see churches of minor or obscure deities, characters who call themselves champions of this god or that goddess, etc. But the last thing we should see is a definitive statement that "these deities are available, these deities are still dead." Not that you need WotC's permission to change things, but if they leave it gray, people can innovate without contradicting established canon. (I myself am currently running a campaign about the resurrection of Eilistraee and Vhaeraun, for instance.)

If it were me (and I'm not saying WotC will do this), the deities that make the cut into AO's new Tablets of Fate will be those who have--for one reason or another--continued to exist. Perhaps it's a traditionalist family or a cult that keeps worshiping a "slain" deity such as Helm, so the deity is revived. Perhaps the deity has maintained itself through the use of artifacts, like Myrkul and the Crown of Thorns. Or perhaps mortals are still carrying fragments of the deity's power, such as Mystra and her remaining Chosen.

(I think also there's room to bring back the Seven Sisters, if a DM is interested in doing so.)

I think the point is that AO is done with the gods and their petty schemes killing each other. Moving forward, he wants his Realmspace to have less turbulence. Once the deities are listed on the Tablets of Fate, they exist--unless somehow AO concedes to write them out.

Cheers

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I'd actually like a definate answer of which deities are back and which aren't. IMO, Ao can still say "no more petty squabbling" and list the deities and their roles on the Tablets of Fate. This, I think, pretains particularly to the novels, because D&D players can choose which deities (if any), they want to include in their compaign, but the novels are a bit different. For example, if there is still question of whether or not Vhaeraun and Eilistraee are brought back, since their followers know they are dead, but are suddenly following them again, that doesn't really...make sense to me. Granted, Shadowbane is following Helm, a dead god, but Helm was connected to the Triad, if not actually -of- the Triad--and Torm now, since he is the Threefold God--so if a follower of Helm were to die, his or her soul would probably be taken in by Torm (though of course I don't know your plans for Kalen). But if a follower of Vhaeraun and Eilistraee were to die but in fact both drow were still dead, his or her soul would probably go to Lolth, and the Spider Queen would probably punish them eternally--though she does kind of do that anyway. And there were the events in Lady Penitent with the "redeemed drow" to consider. Even if the gods are going to interfere less than before, we--and followers--can still know which ones are back, can't we/they? Suddenly having such things up in the air does sound like a retcon, or at least a drastic change and de-realming the Realms to me. And for the core deities that have always been around, shouldn't we and followers know who is alive and who is dead?

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Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
Yes, that is true (I didn't attend Gen Con, but I saw the seminar about the Sundering on Youtube), but I think I'm getting mixed messages here. One minute it sounds like they're coming back, and the next it sounds uncertain of whether it's definate or not *shrugs* the signals are just mixed to me.

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Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie

Re: "Long brewing vengeance": my thinking is that the Masked Lady is equal parts Eilistraee (who sacrificed herself for her people) and Vhaeraun (who didn't sacrifice himself for nobody). The anger comes from him, and then the story is Eilistraee showing him that the cycle of hatred never solves anything. Etc. You get me?

There's also some discussion to be had as to whether resurrecting Eilistraee diminishes her sacrifice, but that really depends on how you received the LP series.

Re: "Exotic": I don't think you understand my meaning. What I was asking was whether the drow should be "exotic" in the sense of "mysterious" and "not fully developed." Should drow be as developed as elves, with a full pantheon of their own gods, an entire vast, detailed empire of their own, etc., etc., or do they work better as "lone wolf/extremely rare" sorts of characters (like Drizzt or Liriel)?

If you look back on what drow were in 1e D&D, they were basically another evil race of creatures that had one goddess who had an unsettling drawing in the Fiend Folio. They became super popular from there, but it's arguable as to whether that popularity came from the coolness of the concept, or from examining every aspect of the race with a microscope.

Don't get me wrong. Drow are cool. I like drow. And drow are obviously extremely popular. But as you look ahead to 5e, do you really want to see MORE drow coverage, or would you be interested in seeing drow return more to their roots, as the Realms over all is doing?

(That may sound rhetorical, but really it's a legitimate question.)

Also, fun fact: Vhaeraun and Eilistraee are the two drow deities Gary Gygax did NOT design, but rather they were created by Ed Greenwood as part of the Forgotten Realms.

So they are Realms specific, and I personally think there is a place for them in the Realms. Will they return? I couldn't say. I hope so. But even if they do, I don't need to examine them and their churches through the microscope. I'm actually happier having them be mysterious, because as I see it, that's part of their charm.

Cheers

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Originally posted by deserk

All gods coming back is much better than only a few select gods.

I mean, think about it. What if they brought back gods you didn't like, over gods you did like? Bringing back them all is bound to make at least the majority of people happy.

I'd personally like for there to be as much gods as possible, to give further diversity to the setting.

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Originally posted by combatmedic

From what I gather, the two biggest turn-offs that many gamers have reported in regard to FR are:

1) frequent RSEs related to gods mucking about and getting killed off

2) uber NPCs hogging all the glory and choking the setting with complex metaplot


That's not meant as a criticism of anyone who likes the official FR metaplot, nor of the talented designers and authors who crafted it. It's a blunt observation based on years of playing the game, looking over online forums, talking with other gamers, etc.


An approach the allows the gods to recede to the background and become more mysterious seems like a great idea. Likewise, reducing the 'air time' of famous (or infamous) high powered NPCs will probably please a lot of folks.

After the Sundering is complete, I suggest that the designers take a hiatus from RSEs. I'm not suggesting that there should never again be major changes. Just take some time developing the setting with an eye towards attracting new customers as well as winning back old ones. If new RSEs arise in the future, it would be nice if more of them were driven by human action with the gods in the background.

That's all just IMHO, of course!

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Originally posted by combatmedic

From what I gather, the two biggest turn-offs that many gamers have reported in regard to FR are:

1) frequent RSEs related to gods mucking about and getting killed off

2) uber NPCs hogging all the glory and choking the setting with complex metaplot


That's not meant as a criticism of anyone who likes the official FR metaplot, nor of the talented designers and authors who crafted it. It's a blunt observation based on years of playing the game, looking over online forums, talking with other gamers, etc.


An approach the allows the gods to recede to the background and become more mysterious seems like a great idea. Likewise, reducing the 'air time' of famous (or infamous) high powered NPCs will probably please a lot of folks.

After the Sundering is complete, I suggest that the designers take a hiatus from RSEs. I'm not suggesting that there should never again be major changes. Just take some time developing the setting with an eye towards attracting new customers as well as winning back old ones. If new RSEs arise in the future, it would be nice if more of them were driven by human action with the gods in the background.

That's all just IMHO, of course!

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Originally posted by Markustay

I am so sick of Menzoberanzan, you couldn't give me a new Menzo book for free. Serously, I hate the damn place. Maybe we should just rename FR 'The Land of Drizzt' and ignore everything that isn't Drow-related (because, dammit, thats precisely what it feels like). 'Drizzt World' - its like an angsty amusement park.

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Originally posted by CorellonsDevout

What about the Rise of the Underdark I've been hearing/reading rumors about, where Lolth is going to try and take over the Weave? Is that all going to happen before the Sundering? And if the drow are going to truly return to their roots, then wouldn't that imply something along similar lines of what happened in LP when they became "dark elves" again? aka, before the descent to the Underdark? Maybe I'm going back too far there. <snip>

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Originally posted by The Sage

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Originally posted by Markustay

And then we have the Scaleyfolk - 'New Halruaa' would be created on the bones of the old Serpentes empire. The Halruaans would think the Yuan-ti and others long-gone (thanks to the devastation wrought by the Spellplague), but they could wrong - how cool would it be to have the serpentfolk secretly operating right beneath their feet, and infiltrating certain aspects of Halruaan society? "wheels within wheels" - its the stuff FR is built on.

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You could even suggest that some of the native sneaky Halruaan survivors/profiteers have been secretly trading with those Serpentes enclaves left in the region. Their aim is to secure a more secure financial foundation for themselves in New Halruaa.

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