quote:

---

Originally posted by Markustay

I admit that History channel has gone 'down hill' as of late (one guy said Bigfoot flies a spaceship!), but I think they cover the basics in 'broad strokes' fairly well.

You know, I can see certain differences between Larloch and Szass tam, so having both is fine (we always have). I just don't want Tam turning into another 'uber-baddie' like Larloch (as in, a guy who even Chosen fear picking a fight with).

On the other hand, I'm thinking Telemont is redundant with Szass Tam. Therefor, I suggest Tam "kills him and takes his stuff" (remember that little gem from 4e?) At first, I thought Shade parked over the High Plateau and the Shades being Tam's underlings sounded pretty nifty, but that puts him too far from the action (which has been the problem with Thay all along... or so people think). If they put 'New Thay' where old Thay was, then Tam could move to Anauroch. Of course, that just exacerbates the stupidity of 'Shade' being in the middle of a bright, sunny desert (I don't think a lich need to work on its tan)

So, since someone seems to think Tam needs to be 'mobile' (don't they have him mucking-about near Nevrwinter now?), why not untether Shade and give him a flying city that actually moves around. It would be the only dungeon a DM could bring to his players, instead of them traveling to it.

Give Tam Shade and turn it into the Deathstar - who's with me?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Irennan


I like Eilistraee a lot, but I agree with this. Eilistraee should be definitely included in the Dark Seldarine (I'd go with demipower), and her followers -as few as they should be- still struggling. As you say, she and Vhaeraun are two radically different approaches to the same goal, but Eilistraee struggles for drow freedom as a rebel and an underdog, romantically and passionately no matter how overwhelming the odds can be. She gives each drow great value, and fight to give them the possibility to forge their own future and path, through their own choices which best express them without the stigma of their race. It is only right for the drow to have Eilistraee as a beacon of hope for a life where everyone has its own great value as person, where happiness is not a far away mirage reachable only with the domination of everything and everyone, and where people are free to create, to love and be loved, to make life flourish. Giving the Dark Maiden too much influence would ruin the concept of her hope desperately trying to shine in the darkness, her strength being her determination in never giving up.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Irennan

On the other hand, having Drizzt as the only super drow who is capable of different choices isn't a god choice IMO; there should be another way for each drow, as there should be the ones who fight for their race to be free to take this alternative (Eilistraee and her followers first among them). How many actually choose and fight for it is another matter, but even very few people doing so would add a lot of depth to the race.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Irennan


Yes, this is how I see Vhaeraun as well. He should be the revolutionary type you talk about (and I think he already is).

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Irennan


But I don't see why he can't be CN. His goal of having the drow 'ruling the world' is obviously megalomaniac (an is too akin to Lolth's), I'd find it more appealing it was the equally significant drow freedom through rebellion and fierce fighting, so that the dark elves could again rise to power free from poisoning infighting, and recover what they lost -- a goal which wouldn't be inherently evil.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Markustay

I admit that History channel has gone 'down hill' as of late (one guy said Bigfoot flies a spaceship!), but I think they cover the basics in 'broad strokes' fairly well.

You know, I can see certain differences between Larloch and Szass tam, so having both is fine (we always have). I just don't want Tam turning into another 'uber-baddie' like Larloch (as in, a guy who even Chosen fear picking a fight with).

On the other hand, I'm thinking Telemont is redundant with Szass Tam. Therefor, I suggest Tam "kills him and takes his stuff" (remember that little gem from 4e?) At first, I thought Shade parked over the High Plateau and the Shades being Tam's underlings sounded pretty nifty, but that puts him too far from the action (which has been the problem with Thay all along... or so people think). If they put 'New Thay' where old Thay was, then Tam could move to Anauroch. Of course, that just exacerbates the stupidity of 'Shade' being in the middle of a bright, sunny desert (I don't think a lich need to work on its tan)

So, since someone seems to think Tam needs to be 'mobile' (don't they have him mucking-about near Nevrwinter now?), why not untether Shade and give him a flying city that actually moves around. It would be the only dungeon a DM could bring to his players, instead of them traveling to it.

Give Tam Shade and turn it into the Deathstar - who's with me?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by deserk

quote:

---

Originally posted by Irennan


I like Eilistraee a lot, but I agree with this. Eilistraee should be definitely included in the Dark Seldarine (I'd go with demipower), and her followers -as few as they should be- still struggling. As you say, she and Vhaeraun are two radically different approaches to the same goal, but Eilistraee struggles for drow freedom as a rebel and an underdog, romantically and passionately no matter how overwhelming the odds can be. She gives each drow great value, and fight to give them the possibility to forge their own future and path, through their own choices which best express them without the stigma of their race. It is only right for the drow to have Eilistraee as a beacon of hope for a life where everyone has its own great value as person, where happiness is not a far away mirage reachable only with the domination of everything and everyone, and where people are free to create, to love and be loved, to make life flourish. Giving the Dark Maiden too much influence would ruin the concept of her hope desperately trying to shine in the darkness, her strength being her determination in never giving up.

---

Bingo. Exactly why I think she and her followers shouldn't be too prominent, because in a way, it kind of destroys how unique Eilistraee is as a god, because she is so alien to the ways of the drow, generally. Making her too prominent, is taking away the struggle that makes Eilistraeeans and good drow intriguing in the first place.

---

quote:

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Irennan

On the other hand, having Drizzt as the only super drow who is capable of different choices isn't a god choice IMO; there should be another way for each drow, as there should be the ones who fight for their race to be free to take this alternative (Eilistraee and her followers first among them). How many actually choose and fight for it is another matter, but even very few people doing so would add a lot of depth to the race.

---

Well I think it should be very rare for drow to have a set of morality that is very much alike those of good-aligned surfacer cultures. Honestly, I think most Eilistraeeans should be Chaotic Neutral, because drow indoctrination tends weed out most of those who have personality traits that are normally considered negative and disadvantageous (like being sympathetic and caring, and showing mercy for others). A lot of Eilistraee's dogma is alien to the general drow, and it's going to have to take a radical change to adapt to all of Eilistraee's teaching, and most people probably wouldn't adapt to it completely.

That's probably where you get the discrimination against males by certain Eilistraeean groups, because some females can't get over the (drow) order of things that has been imprinted in their head from childhood, that drow females have a superior role compared to males.

---

quote:

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Irennan


Yes, this is how I see Vhaeraun as well. He should be the revolutionary type you talk about (and I think he already is).

---

Yup, what I said, is kind of me fighting against my old lazy interpretation of Vhaeraun, thinking of him as nothing more than god of thieves, a kind of drow knock-off of Mask. And I now don't look at him as that, but I fear many people do automatically deem him as nothing more than that.

---

quote:

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Irennan


But I don't see why he can't be CN. His goal of having the drow 'ruling the world' is obviously megalomaniac (an is too akin to Lolth's), I'd find it more appealing it was the equally significant drow freedom through rebellion and fierce fighting, so that the dark elves could again rise to power free from poisoning infighting, and recover what they lost -- a goal which wouldn't be inherently evil.

---

It isn't inherently evil for them to rid the ways of the infighting, but his obsession of having his followers take "back" the surface is kind of reminiscent to nationalism, which often is a tricky step into evil when you start claiming one culture is more superior, or has more rights, than another.

The only thing that makes him slightly less evil than Lolth, is his teaching of equality amongst the sexes. But the way I see it, he does so, to make as many drow as possible work together and fight "common enemy", as it's ultimately self-destructive to the race as a whole when they judge someone entirely out of their class or gender, which means certain individual's potentials might not be fully realized. And also, it sparks infighting itself, when half of the drow, don't really get to feel the benefits of being a drow. Especially when considering how chaotic a race, the drow are.

And also, one of the principal reasons I wouldn't want Vhaeraun to be Chaotic Neutral, as opposed to Chaotic Evil, is because I fear it would open too wide a door for Chaotic Good Vhaeraunites, which would just be seriously unusual, in my opinion. I don't really have anything against Chaotic Neutral Vhaeraunites, because certain Vhaeraunite groups come off more as CN rather than CE, like Clan Auzkovyn, who have no problems with accepting elves or humans amongst them (although the drow of Auzkovyn aren't really that devout to Vhaeraun).

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by combatmedic

Isn't the desert of Anauroch pretty much gone? I had thought that the Shadovar guys restored anicent Netheril's forests, lake, rivers, grasslands, etc.

http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Netheril

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Markustay


I read most of the 4eFR material when it first came out (just the campaign guide), but I recall very little of it (I have to liken this to trying to remember the moments just before a car accident). I was pretty shell-shocked for awhile. I have to honestly say I don't know what happened to Anauroch in 4e.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Markustay

quote:

---

Originally posted by combatmedic

Isn't the desert of Anauroch pretty much gone? I had thought that the Shadovar guys restored anicent Netheril's forests, lake, rivers, grasslands, etc.

http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Netheril

---

You can tell whats going on on that map?

I read most of the 4eFR material when it first came out (just the campaign guide), but I recall very little of it (I have to liken this to trying to remember the moments just before a car accident). I was pretty shell-shocked for awhile. I have to honestly say I don't know what happened to Anauroch in 4e.

I would like it 'skinnied up' - it needs to stay nearly the same 'height' (north/south axis) - but it could afford to lose some 'meat' off the western side (so we can get back a lot of the room we lost in 3e). I wouldn't mind the lands to the north being like northern Vassa in 1e/2e (a swampy mess, but traversible, with future potential for settlement). That way, you'd still have to go around the place, but you'd have a choice as to whether going north or south to do so. No road across the middle - that was the least-sensical thing about the 3e map (considering the Shades were back, that road could not have existed in 3e). Maybe I'll do a mock-up of that today - I need to get my 'map on' again - I just haven't been feeling it the past couple weeks.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Irennan

quote:

---

Originally posted by Eilserus

It's entirely possible we'll see all the drow gods back after AO recreates the Tablets of Fate and decides who's handling what divine responsibilities. I know it's been mentioned the siblings were intended to still be around as arch-fey or some such. I'd just go with demipower status myself, but that's because some of the 4E stuff I don't really understand. I still haven't figured out a good way to bring Selvetarm back myself, but I'm thinking it has something to do with drider worshippers. ;)

---

Honestly, I'd prefer something less anonymous than ''and *poof* they're back'' (even tho I could easily live even with something like this, if it brought them back). The little info I have about their former plan for Eilistraee and Vhaeraun in the Menzo book makes me think that what they were doing is way more flavorful: I'll just quote it:

quote:

---

While I cannot share the text of what I submitted to WotC, Irennan is pretty much spot on in our idea of how to keep consistent with the old lore while returning Eilistraee and Vhaeraun. The Masked Lady sacrificed her divinity and returned as an archfey -- actually two archfey. Vhaeraun and Eilistraee lost their names in the sacrifice and only had their ancestral titles of the Mask on the Moon and the Dancing Maiden. While the archfey cannot grant spells, PCs would directly interact with the spirits that were Eilistraee and Vhaeraun. They ruled from the Grotto of SIlver and Shadow (the map was included in the map pack), which has fallen into ruin in the centuries that they were gods. So drow servants of the Lord and Lady have two great tasks -- fight the oppression of Lolth while reclaiming a feydark realm from the wilderness and evil fey such as the fomorians. This gives judges two great campaigns - one based entirely in the feydark and dealing with other fey and one in the Underdark continuing the fight against Lolth and her minions.
Their followers would be far fewer than before, making every PC who serves the Lady and the Lord that much more important. Also, servants of Lolth are searching for the hidden Grotto and hunting the Lady and the Lord's followers constantly. Being a servant of the archfey would be a harrowing experience of a rebel, fighting overwhelming odds.

---

However, I'm a bit perplex about this: if they set up in the feywild after the exile from Arvandor, then it would be weird of two hostile beings to live in the same place. Unless the conflict between the two of them was overplayed and they were kind of allies from the beginning, the hatred of Vhaeraun towards his sister being only a myth. Then if things really are this way, after they got their godhood their paths started diverging, as their ideals did, only to converge again in time of need giving birth to the ML, who sacrificed their combined divine power for the redemption, making brother and sister allied archfeys again.

The concept sounds good to me tho, and I'd like much more this to become canon than ''Ao brought them back''. If Ao was going to write ''Eilistraee and Vhaeraun'' on the tablets of fate, they could just get ''promoted'' to deities again (or they could easily remain archfey if WotC don't want them to play a bigger role).

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Markustay

Of course, that just exacerbates the stupidity of 'Shade' being in the middle of a bright, sunny desert (I don't think a lich need to work on its tan)

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Markustay

Give Tam Shade and turn it into the Deathstar - who's with me?

---

quote:

---

I would love to see Eilistraee and Vhaeraun come back as well, though I'd actually like them to be demigods at least. Arcfeys would suggest they didn't have their own realm, so when their drow followers died, their souls would still go to Lolth, which wouldn't be very promising for them. But arch fey Eilistraee and Vhaeraun is better than no Vhaeraun and Eilistraee I suppose.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Red Walker

(yep, I'll grasp at any straws to get Halruaa back!)

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Markustay

Here's my assumption - the 4e map was how the folk of the post-plague world thought their world looked (which is why its so ill-defined - they were unsure about the fate of a great many things). Basically, it was a 'best guess', going by rumors they heard. This will leave certain things open for interpretation going into 5e. The way the world was a month after the Spellplague hit was very different then the world we will get a century later (in other words, after the worst of the holocaust was over, and the waters receded, etc, the land could have looked a lot different then how folks were picturing it - the 4e map).

I am working on that 'mock-up' of an improved Anauroch as I type this. I started an 1e/2e/3e amalgam map some time ago, and I can always fold this into that project (since I need to get back some of that terrain we lost when the coast got angled). I'm liking how its turning out, and it could shoe-horn well with other suggestions I've made (like the Shou moving closer). I've got this nice big area where the High ice used to be, and it might be a good place to move the tieflings. Have the displaced Tuigan move into the Nar lands (seriously, not all that different - we go from Rus-like horse barbarians to Mongols). That puts a 'no-mans land' (The Thar) between the Warlock Knights and the Tieflings (and the Moonsea region).

This could make the far north (of the eastern heartlands) something useful. I doubt many people used the High Ice, the Ride, or the Tortured Lands. With a 'northern passage' connecting the western and eastern heartlands, those areas become a hotbed of new activity.

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Red Walker

(yep, I'll grasp at any straws to get Halruaa back!)

---

Another idea - I should take my concept for Halruaa from my 'Misbegotten Realms' map (an island chain) and apply that to the pre-existing Halruaa. It could be a winner. Once the waters receded (after all the plaguey crap was over and done), people were surprised to find that some things survived (and/or were rebuilt during the hundred years or so by the surviving Halruaans).

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tarlyn

At the sundering panel, James Wyatt said the map was going to be the old gray box set for the sundering novels. Not sure what that means for 5e, but I guess the basic outlines of the landmasses and bodies of water will match OGB. If you haven't checked it out yet, it is available on youtube for sure, might be on wizards website as well.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tarlyn

Additional 5e hopes

5e hopes
-Vhaeraun and Eilistraee both should have experience some growing pains during the past hundred years. Redefining both deities a little to broaden their appeal. For instance, I would like to see it noted that Eilistraee goes with a little more rangery look and uses a bow again(still have swordmanship be her big thing, but she realizes that Lolth influenced her shot). Keep the dancing naked in moonlight glades as a clerical ritual, but allow Eilistraee a more feminist default appearance. Vhaeraun would be more interesting to me as a CN deity rather than CE. Maybe time spent merged with Eilistraee made him realize that it was his own cruelty that caused his bad relationship with Corellon Larethian. Also, in both cases the gender restrictions with divine casters should be removed. That way the drow have three distinct choices of deity CE, CN, CG.
-Dambrath - secular drow controlled state. Dambrath should include half-drow and possibly Abeir refugee elves other races would be fine too. I would have the clerics of Vhaeraun, Eilistraee and Lolth all have influence in the region, but I would not have them with official power. A non-theocracy drow state is some thing that has never received a lot of attention in D&D. Also, it would be interesting to see how priestess of Lolth interact in a society that they do not control.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tarlyn

At the sundering panel, James Wyatt said the map was going to be the old gray box set for the sundering novels. Not sure what that means for 5e, but I guess the basic outlines of the landmasses and bodies of water will match OGB. If you haven't checked it out yet, it is available on youtube for sure, might be on wizards website as well.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Markustay

I admit that History channel has gone 'down hill' as of late (one guy said Bigfoot flies a spaceship!), but I think they cover the basics in 'broad strokes' fairly well.

You know, I can see certain differences between Larloch and Szass tam, so having both is fine (we always have). I just don't want Tam turning into another 'uber-baddie' like Larloch (as in, a guy who even Chosen fear picking a fight with).

On the other hand, I'm thinking Telemont is redundant with Szass Tam. Therefor, I suggest Tam "kills him and takes his stuff" (remember that little gem from 4e?) At first, I thought Shade parked over the High Plateau and the Shades being Tam's underlings sounded pretty nifty, but that puts him too far from the action (which has been the problem with Thay all along... or so people think). If they put 'New Thay' where old Thay was, then Tam could move to Anauroch. Of course, that just exacerbates the stupidity of 'Shade' being in the middle of a bright, sunny desert (I don't think a lich need to work on its tan)

So, since someone seems to think Tam needs to be 'mobile' (don't they have him mucking-about near Nevrwinter now?), why not untether Shade and give him a flying city that actually moves around. It would be the only dungeon a DM could bring to his players, instead of them traveling to it.

Give Tam Shade and turn it into the Deathstar - who's with me?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Red Walker

quote:

---

Originally posted by Markustay

quote:

---

Originally posted by combatmedic

Isn't the desert of Anauroch pretty much gone? I had thought that the Shadovar guys restored anicent Netheril's forests, lake, rivers, grasslands, etc.

http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Netheril

---

You can tell whats going on on that map?

I read most of the 4eFR material when it first came out (just the campaign guide), but I recall very little of it (I have to liken this to trying to remember the moments just before a car accident). I was pretty shell-shocked for awhile. I have to honestly say I don't know what happened to Anauroch in 4e.

I would like it 'skinnied up' - it needs to stay nearly the same 'height' (north/south axis) - but it could afford to lose some 'meat' off the western side (so we can get back a lot of the room we lost in 3e). I wouldn't mind the lands to the north being like northern Vassa in 1e/2e (a swampy mess, but traversible, with future potential for settlement). That way, you'd still have to go around the place, but you'd have a choice as to whether going north or south to do so. No road across the middle - that was the least-sensical thing about the 3e map (considering the Shades were back, that road could not have existed in 3e). Maybe I'll do a mock-up of that today - I need to get my 'map on' again - I just haven't been feeling it the past couple weeks.

---

Snip...

The Empire of Netheril stretches from the edge of the High Ice south to the Farsea Swamp, occupying the former desert land of Anauroch. Rivers now flow from the melting glaciers, rain falls, temperatures are moderate, and in some places vegetation is particularly lush. Netheril is a land reborn, despite its cruel overlords.


It seems to me we need Halruaa as a netherese counterpoint to shade. To me, It's not really Netheril with only a fraction of Nethese peoples represented.


(yep, I'll grasp at any straws to get Halruaa back!)

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tarlyn

At the sundering panel, James Wyatt said the map was going to be the old gray box set for the sundering novels. Not sure what that means for 5e, but I guess the basic outlines of the landmasses and bodies of water will match OGB. If you haven't checked it out yet, it is available on youtube for sure, might be on wizards website as well.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie

"Looking like a retcon" is not a retcon. Gods die and come back all the time.

The way the Gods are being handled is to instill a great deal more mystery into the whole thing. Mortals aren't going to read the Tablets of Fate, so they don't know for sure what deities are technically alive or dead. Cults crop up all over the place, sworn to whatever deities they want to be. The gods themselves will recede and take less of an active role in the events of the mortal world.

Picture the way the Realms used to be, before Faiths and Avatars, wherein you had a little guidance on deities, but none of it was really concrete. If we have a gods book, it'll be about churchs, dogma, faiths, political connections, rituals, etc, not a fact-by-fact encyclopedia of divinity or statblocks on the gods themselves. Ultimately, we're going to reach a point where it's less important which gods are technically there, and which faiths are alive and why.

Part of this technique is mechanical: if and when it becomes relevant to have an actual God appear in the published Realms, it should be an actual story (a novel, an adventure, etc), and keeping things mysterious gives a certain gray area in which this can be done.

Cheers

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Richard Lee Byers

The majority of dragonborn in Tymanther hate dragons, but not all of them do. I'm pretty sure some guy wrote novels where that was explored.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by sleyvas

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Red Walker

quote:

---

Originally posted by Markustay

quote:

---

Originally posted by combatmedic

Isn't the desert of Anauroch pretty much gone? I had thought that the Shadovar guys restored anicent Netheril's forests, lake, rivers, grasslands, etc.

http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Netheril

---

You can tell whats going on on that map?

I read most of the 4eFR material when it first came out (just the campaign guide), but I recall very little of it (I have to liken this to trying to remember the moments just before a car accident). I was pretty shell-shocked for awhile. I have to honestly say I don't know what happened to Anauroch in 4e.

I would like it 'skinnied up' - it needs to stay nearly the same 'height' (north/south axis) - but it could afford to lose some 'meat' off the western side (so we can get back a lot of the room we lost in 3e). I wouldn't mind the lands to the north being like northern Vassa in 1e/2e (a swampy mess, but traversible, with future potential for settlement). That way, you'd still have to go around the place, but you'd have a choice as to whether going north or south to do so. No road across the middle - that was the least-sensical thing about the 3e map (considering the Shades were back, that road could not have existed in 3e). Maybe I'll do a mock-up of that today - I need to get my 'map on' again - I just haven't been feeling it the past couple weeks.

---

Snip...

The Empire of Netheril stretches from the edge of the High Ice south to the Farsea Swamp, occupying the former desert land of Anauroch. Rivers now flow from the melting glaciers, rain falls, temperatures are moderate, and in some places vegetation is particularly lush. Netheril is a land reborn, despite its cruel overlords.


It seems to me we need Halruaa as a netherese counterpoint to shade. To me, It's not really Netheril with only a fraction of Nethese peoples represented.


(yep, I'll grasp at any straws to get Halruaa back!)

---

I don't see them undoing Halruaa's destruction. However, I would find it interesting if we find out that many Halruaan refugees fled to Nimbral and were accepted there. What greater lie to tell the world than that their entire culture was dead, when it was simply forced to move.... I can see Nimbraii loving the hoax, as they still worship Leira (and perhaps they actually are worshipping the dead god and not Cyric... as the servant of the fallen feat would allow that).

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Markustay

Actually, considering who and what they are, why do they even need a physical realm within the Realms? Why couldn't they have had an 'emergency contingency' that shunted most of their settlements and people into a previously created demi-plane?

In that way, the Halruaan nation doesn't have to be 'on the map' - its always 'right there, next to you".

If people want something a little more substantial, then give the Halruaans the old Thayan Enclaves - it makes more sense for them to be running that show anyway. That way, no-one would know where the Halruaan homeland is now (and not suspect that all the enclaves are directly connected to it in a pocket-plane).

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Eilserus

quote:

---

Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie



If we have a gods book, it'll be about churchs, dogma, faiths, political connections, rituals, etc, not a fact-by-fact encyclopedia of divinity or statblocks on the gods themselves.

Cheers

---

A sourcebook like this would be EPIC! I know in the previous faiths and demihuman deities books, my favorite sections were always Affiliated Orders and Major Centers of Worship. Be sweet to see expanded information on the various churches.

---