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Originally posted by combatmedic

Longbows (meaning relatively long self bows) did NOT render heavy armor obselete in the real world.

Five or six foot selfbows have been around for much longer than plate or mail armor.

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Originally posted by Tarlyn

Leave smoke powder up to the group to decide. Maybe it is magical and maybe it is black powder, there doesn't need to be a cannon answer. I would imagine a lot of groups don't use firearms to begin with.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Markustay

quote:

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Originally posted by combatmedic

Longbows (meaning relatively long self bows) did NOT render heavy armor obselete in the real world.

Five or six foot selfbows have been around for much longer than plate or mail armor.

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I guess my teachers and the History Channel were both wrong, then.

According to both sources, the English Longbow effectively ended the age of Chivalry. The English became so enamored with their longbows that they were the last (major) European nation to stop using them in favor of guns (that directly from the History channel).

According to Wiki, they were capable of penetrating mail armor, depending upon the skill of the user, the weight of the bow, and the type of arrow head used. Even with all those stringent conditions, it still means a peasant could take down a mounted knight with a very good shot.

quote:

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Originally posted by Tarlyn

Leave smoke powder up to the group to decide. Maybe it is magical and maybe it is black powder, there doesn't need to be a cannon answer. I would imagine a lot of groups don't use firearms to begin with.

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This is what they did in 3e, and I found it irritating. It was just another example of "lets ignore this lore and pretend it doesn't exist". You can't open Pandora's box and just ignore it.

Would it surprise everyone here to know I dislike firearms in FR (I said I wanted cannons, not handguns). I hated that they were added to the setting in 2e.

However, I am a fan of The Forgotten Realms, not just those parts that please me. I detest anything to do with Spelljamming (seriously, I literally get nauseated by it), and yet I find myself able to participate in conversations about it in a positive manner. I know it exists in FR, and therefor I support it, despite my avid dislike of it (sailing between worlds is fine - sailing in space not so much. Leave 'Elves in Outer space' to Warhammer, please).

I may even hate SJ more then Aboleths, and thats pretty bad. I doubt many of you knew that, though. I try to respect my fellow scribes who enjoy that lore. All I was asking for is a mention and some coverage in an article or two - is that so wrong? On the other hand, I would prefer they to use the Tablets of Fate as the Deus Ex Machina to get rid of firearms for good. I'll still have my alchemical Thayan Bombards, and in my Realms, I can just say Thaymart was running a clearance sale.

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• The Eladrin, though I wouldn't want them to BE Eladrin. I prefer the celestial Eladrin. I don't want them to be ancestors or related to the Elves as 4e has them. Why not make them into immortal faerie nobility like the Sidhe/Shee in some 3rd party sourcebooks?


• The AEDU spell type for spell casting classes.


• The Warlock, Witch, Invoker, and a few other classes that were present in this edition.


• The larger number of attack spells that spell casters had.


• The not-so-much helplessness of spellcasters.


• The new Tiefling look and origin (though they could also be brought about by fiendish union as well).


• The Devas.


• The Vrylokas.


• The new Necromancy spells and Nethermancy.


• New fae themed spells and powers.


• The greater focus on fae.


• The slight Planescape feel.


• 4e's Shadar-kai.


• Some of the deities present in the base 4e game: The Raven Queen, Ioun, that dead daughter of Zephyr, Erathis (though I despise that she wants to conquer nature and constantly build empires), Melora (a good antagonist of Erathis).

• The restructuring of the Realms.


• The deicide of the gods we loved.


• The overall artwork.


• The fact that WotC is trying to make it more like an MMO.


• The pruned alignment system. (I hate the alignment system overral, but the even more difficult pruned one is ridiculous).


• The Genasi. I hate their new look. Akanul is interesting, but I hate how they look now. The Stormsoul Genasi is unneeded; we have the Air Genasi for that. Their origins could be similar to the Tieflings in that they could have also been spawned by elementals taking human lovers and others coming from the Elemental planes.


• The continued censorship of WotC.


• The over-simplified rules and lore. LAME.


• The non existence of the Ffolk and Northlanders. Basically, they couldn't handle having these two hate each other to death and so decided to make them all half breeds. *rage*


• The destruction of over half of Faerun do the the Spellplague.


• The whole Spellplague in general.


• The destruction of Zhentil Keep. I hate the Zhents, but STILL.


• Evermeet switching planes.

[*]Deities becoming "aspects" of other deities.

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Originally posted by Markustay

I haven't done so simply because most of my own points have been mentioned by others, and a lot of what other people want I do not want (and I am sure just about everyone here feels the same way).

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Originally posted by Markustay


I, personally, am willing to just go along with that consensus. My only caveat is that whatever they do, they respect previous lore (unless that lore was so bad nearly everyone would be happy to see it gone), create great, old-school style lore, bring-back FR's original flavor ("a riddle, wrapped in a mystery, inside an enigma"), and just make it so damn good that I - and everyone else - just can't get enough of it.

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Originally posted by combatmedic

There are some great ideas in the newest version of FR, but some stuff just doesn’t work for me.

Let’s run down the big stuff first.

• 100 year leap:
Given everything else they changed, it makes perfect sense. I see the advtanage in moving past a lot of the accumulated canon plots and NPcs. More on this much later in the post…
• Spellplague and Mystra’s death:
It goes a long way towards explaining the pretty significant changes in the way magic works in 4E. It also spins off the wild magic and dead magic zones ideas, building something new. Kills a bunch of really potent spell casters, which is fine by me—FR had too many of those guys.
I don’t know the particulars of how Cyric and Shar managed to kill Mystra. I understand that some people find the details implausible. Without more info, I can’t really comment.

• Other gods dying:
I don’t like what they did with Helm and Tyr. Sorry, I just don’t buy the whole love triangle and duel thing. It seems forced and out of character. I would not use it if I ran a game using 4E FR.
Azuth getting gobbled up by Asmodeus is kind of interesting. I’m not sure why they did it, though, unless they just felt that Asmodeus had to be in the setting. Why not the other 4E gods, then?

• Gods turning out to be aspects of other gods:
The basic idea is fine, but they did more of it than I’d have done. Some of it felt forced. Realms already had regional names and aspects: Melith (if he is Milil, that is), The Earthmother, Kazgoroth the Beast, the Adama, Anachtyr, etc. They could have simply done more of that.
• Exarchs:
The idea is sensible and not really new, but the nomenclature is bizarre. I never understood why an East Roman title was used for what are essentially just demigods or lesser deities. I keep thinking of the Exarch of Ravenna. Do the gods all dress in ‘Byzantine’ court robes? Is Ao the heavenly Autocrat?
This gives me some ideas for Chessenta…

• Cosmology shift:
This change is really easy to ignore unless you are running high level, plane hopping type adventures. I see why they wanted to make things line up better with the default 4E cosmology. That makes it easier for new guys who came in with 4E and are used to the way the planes are assumed to work in that rules set.
I like the Great Tree. I’d have kept that. Gotta have the Nine Hells, though. Greenwood’s articles on the Hells are solid gold.


• Returned Abeir:
My biggest problem with this one is somewhat pedantic. Abeir Toril means “cradle of life.” That is the very first entry in the Cyclopedia, for goodness sakes. I don’t like that this old and cool canon lore was ignored, and Abeir was introduced as a separate planet.
I’m okay with the ‘When Worlds Collide’ idea. I likely wouldn’t have blown up or transposed quite as many parts of Faerun, but I would have used the returned Abeir stuff even more heavily outside Faerun.
Does anybody know how Abeir fits in with Realsmpace? Did they retcon out all the Spelljammer stuff? I’m not heavily invested in SJ, so this isn’t a complaint. I’m just curious.

Now, on to other geographical and political stuff:
• Halruua blown up. Cool. I like the Five Companies.
• Sembia conquered by Shade; it’s not my cup of tea, but a Sembian Revolution and a restored republic afterward would be cool in 5E.
• Luiren sinking and Var no more. Cool by me. Diving for sunken treasure!
• Dambrath revolution with Crinti out of power. I like it, at least from what little I know of it.
• Return of ancient imperial civilizations- I rather liked these things being deeper in the background. It’s not a deal breaker for me, though.


In regards to NPCs, the dead and the living:

• Why didn’t they just go ahead and kill Elminster? It would have made a lot more sense. If the massive setting changes were meant to clear the floor for fans that dislike the scads of meddlesome ultra-high powered NPCs and complex metaplot, then they should have started at the top.
They should have whacked all the Chosen and the Seven Sisters, too. Go whole hog.

• Mirt the Moneylender gets saved by some sort of tricky Greenwood moves. Whoa, I didn’t know about this one. Till I read a previous poster’s comments. You know what—I’m cool with it.
Mirt sounds like a really fun NPC. A creak, wheezy fat old fighter , like Sir John Falstaff but with moneybags? That’s great stuff! I’m not saying all heads should have rolled. If I had a choice between saving Mirt and Eliminster, Mirt would win, no contest.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Venger



1) Mystra: She absolutely has to come back. I’m glad to hear that Ed’s working on it. My hope, though, would be for it to be the Midnight personality. I was a bit appalled by that plot point not just because they killed off Mystra, the flagship character of the setting, but that it was done in that manner. The whole scenario reeked of a bad Lifetime movie in which a man obsessed with a woman breaks into her home and murders her. It seems cheap and it made Mystra seem weak and pathetic as she was essentially butchered by her stalker. Mystra/Midnight coming back and paying Cyric back in kind would be nice (Though that doesn’t mean I want Cyric dead. I can’t stand the little turd but he still does make a pretty good setting villain). I'd like to see her rebuild Dweomerheart, reconstitute the Weave and either bring Azuth back along with her, or elevate a mortal to take his place as an Exarch in her service. Maybe Elminster, the Simbul, or even Alustriel can fill the role?

(That’s another one that gets me, killing Alustriel. She’s not a big time adventurer, but a city ruler. She’s about as innocuous an NPS as you can get, so I don’t see why they felt they had to kill her to appease Forgotten Realms haters.)

2) Helm: If you’re working on his return, then that’d be great, too. I look forward to seeing him take his place in Celestia in Torm’s service.

3) Nobanion: This is coming out of left field I know, but whatever happened to this guy? I was just reminded of him while writing the above. I wouldn’t mind seeing him also enter into Torm’s service and move to Celestia. He seems like he’d be a great fit there. The way I’d like to see the organization of Celestia is as follows: Torm, Bahamut, and Ilmater forming the Triad, with Torm (Greater God) as the top point and Bahamut and Ilmater (Gods) as the two bottom points, while Helm and Nobanion are the sword and standard of Torm.

Now if only Celestia wasn’t such a sausage fest. Damn that Siamorphe…

4) Lathander: Here’s why I think combining him with Amaunator is silly. The idea is that there’s a Sun God and he goes through different phases, and we’ve seen those phases being Dawn, Midday, and Dusk. And since Lathander and Amaunator didn’t coexist, then they must be the same, but in a different phase. The problem with that is that neither of them have ever been a God of Dusk. That was Myrkul, and he and Lathander coexisted for a long time just fine. The argument would make sense if he was all three, but he’s not. He’s two phases while some other guy was the third. So he bounces back and forth between God of Dawn and God of Midday? That doesn’t make much sense at all. On top of which they’re both completely different personalities. So in my opinion, Lathander should be brought back as a separate god. In addition…

5) Myrkul: Myrkul should be brought back, too. He’ll no longer be God of the Dead but he can still reclaim the rest of his Portfolios of Autumn, Corruption, Decay, Dusk, Exhaustion, Old Age, Parasites, and Wasting. He can also claim Velsharoon’s old Portfolios of Necromancy and Undeath now that that poor bastard’s bitten the dust. Myrkul’s an interesting personality and frankly I’ve missed him all these years and I’d love to see his triumphant return and have him build a new Castle of Bones somewhere out in the Astral Sea. I’m also linking him up to Lathander above because I think that they, along with Amaunator, can create an interesting dynamic. Sun gods have been done to death, and having a generic “sun god” for the setting isn’t doing the Forgotten Realms any favors, but if you were to have three sun gods, each of which represents a different phase of the sun, dawn, midday, and dusk? Think of what each means, and what each god would represent.

Lathander is the Dawnbringer, the sun that rises in the morning, which means that he represents new beginnings, a casting off of the past, and constant change and evolution. He’s the ever-changing universe and the newborn star blazing out in the black. Amaunator is the God of Midday, and represents stability, stagnancy, and the status quo. He’s a sun in the full power of its life, set in its ways. Myrkul is the Lord of Dusk and represents the forces of entropy, decay, and the end of all things. He’s the lifeless star within a universe which grows ever colder. Each of those, Dawn, Midday and Dusk represent something wholly different, and I think the Forgotten Realms could benefit from having a trio of gods who represent each and are constantly in opposition to each other because of their natures.

6) Mask: His return’s a must. And let him have the Portfolio of Intrigue, already. Given what I’ve read the past few days about the circumstances of his death, he definitely deserves it, especially since he’s much better at it than Cyric. Has Cyric ever gotten away with any of his intrigues? And should Myrkul be brought back I’m sure he’d be willing to let Mask have a piece of his domain where he can hang his hat in and be safe from both Cyric and Shar.

7) Bhaal: This one’s another personal wish of mine. I’ve always loved “the Dead Three”, and Bane’s already back, so how about giving Realms fans back the full set? Make him an Exarch at least in service to Myrkul if he ever comes back, or Bane.

8) Eilistraee & Vhaeraun: I understand the argument about wanting to get the Drow back to their roots, but the problem with that is that getting them back to their roots is also synonymous with making them a one-note caricature. Eliminating these two gods eliminated all the character growth which the Drow as a race had experienced. There’re plenty of ways to make the Drow more villainous, but at the same time, that doesn’t mean that the variety of portrayals which they had should be obliterated. So personally I’d really like to see both Eilistraee and Vhaeraun return.

Incidentally, isn’t 1484 The Year of the Awakened Sleepers? If one wants to claim that the ‘dead’ gods are sleeping, then that might be a good year to bring them back.

9) Zhentil Keep and the Zhentarim: I’d like to see these go back to the way they were and with Manshoon at the helm. It’d be nice if Manshoon were to reassert control of the Zhentarim in a Godfather style St. Valentine’s Day Massacre scenario in which he eliminates all potential rivals to the Zhentarim and remakes them into the wizard led army/secret organization for advancing his interests and Zhentil Keep’s interests around the world, and uses them to retake and rebuild Zhentil Keep. An alliance between a rebuilt Zhentil Keep, the Dalelands, Myth Drannor, and Cormyr against Netheril would also be pretty nice. Like the Soviet Union in the Allies versus the Axis. Team up with an evil to fight against an even greater evil. That’d open up a ton of intrigue as they need Zhentil Keep, but at the same time they can’t trust them, particularly Manshoon.

10) Elturgard: Just a bugaboo I had after reading the book, but it’d be nice to see Elturgard explicitly stated as being dedicated to Amaunator. Torm doesn’t make sense at all given all the other circumstances of that country.

11) Halruaa & Lantan: Was there ever an explanation for why the highly magical nation of Halruaa was torched to the ground by the Spellplague while the highly magical nation of Netheril escaped its effects unscathed? Anyway…

I like the idea of the Halruaan’s rescuing the Lantanese and the two nations joining forces to found a new country. It’s possible that Halruaan skyships came across Lantan just as disaster was striking them and were able to rescue a large portion of their population. The alliance between the survivors of Halruaa and Lantan could also be the origin of Warforged in the Forgotten Realms. They would’ve needed an army to survive, and with their depleted populations, the only option they’d have would be to manufacture one. The Lantanese already sort of had this ability in 3E with the Techsmiths able to create Gondsmen. Combining their expertise with that of the incredible magical knowledge possessed by the Halruaan’s that should give them what they need to be able to come up with Warforged, which is what their standing army could currently consist of.

As for their current location, your guess is as good as mine. It’s been 100 years, though, so they still shouldn’t be wandering Faerun like refugees a la Battlestar Galactica. They should’ve already found somewhere to call home and already be settled there. After all, the ancestors of the Five Companies may not be the only Halruaan’s who escaped the devastation of Halruaa. To continue the Battlestar Galactica analogy, maybe the Five Companies were the Battlestar Pegasus equivalents while there were another group of Halruaan survivors who were the Battlestar Galactica and Colonial fleet equivalents, and they were the ones who saved the Lantanese and settled elsewhere?

And yes, I’d love to read a novel about that.

12) Mulhorand & Unther: Mulhorand was fantastic and characterful and I’m dumbfounded that the developers ever thought it’d be a good idea to get rid of it. It was also on the cusp of conflict with all its neighbors in 3E, including Thay, and that was suddenly swept away with the advent of 4E? Like the commenter on that video link I posted above said, the game opportunities not only narrowed as a result, but flattened as the conflict between Mulhorand and the Red Wizards never occurred with Mulhorand being whisked away while the Red Wizards were all turned into undead loyal to Szass Tam. As for what’s going on with Abeir, I have to be honest and say that I don’t particularly care. That’s a whole other campaign world, and as a fan of the Forgotten Realms, it’s Faerun and its immediate environs which interest me.

So in short, I’d like to see Mulhorand return, and the seeds of that possibility are right there in the 4E FRCG. Nezram the Worldwalker is a wizard who’s A) experienced at planar travel, B) loves his country, and C) hates the High Imaskari to pieces. It shouldn’t be too much trouble for him to be able to track down Abeir and what happened to Mulhorand and its people. So he has the ability to provide planar travel and can work the necessary magic to bring Mulhorand back. There’s also the Mulhorandi gods themselves, who’ve long shown an interest in looking after and protecting the Mulhorandi people. They’re not just going to take this disaster which has hit their people lying down, particularly if the Mulhorandi people want to go back home (and after being there for four thousand years, Toril is their home). Nevermind how the people might react once they find out that the Imaskari have moved into their lands (Like Nezram, they’ll probably also believe that it was an Imaskari plot, so they’ll definitely want some payback). So while Nezram can provide the means for them to go home, the Mulhorandi gods and their legions of clerics can provide the power to make that transition possible.

So between Nezram and whatever other means he discovered should he have found that race of serpent men he was looking for, the Mulhorandi gods, as well as anything the Mulhorandi might have found on Abeir, it's possible they could be able to bring their civilization back to Faerun, with all the peoples from both Unther and Mulhorand. Five million pissed off Mulhorandi (and possibly an army of those serpent people that Nezram was looking for) descend on the Imaskari and drive them down into Deep Imaskar, with High Imaskar perhaps able to maintain a small portion of land while the Mulhorandi reconquer most of the rest. The Dragonborn in Tymanther are able to repel the Mulhorandi presence within their borders but are left with a couple million Untherite refugees begging for asylum and safety from the Mulhorandi. The end result is that Mulhorand is back and is in a cold war state with both Deep Imaskar beneath its feet (and possibly what's left of High Imaskar on the surface) and Tymanther to its west, which is left reeling after having suddenly absorbed millions of refugees.

13) Luiren: I’d like to see those plucky little Halflings get a new nation. Just because Halflings are nomads in the core setting that doesn’t mean the same has to hold true in Forgotten Realms. The little blighters deserve to have a new homeland.

14) Thay: It’d be nice if WotC were to pull back from talking about how the undead ridiculously outnumber the living. Szass Tam isn’t an idiot. You need living people to create new undead, and if most of your people are already undead then your numbers can only go down as your undead servants are destroyed and you don’t have enough living people to replace them. Moreover, one of the things that made Thay interesting was their variety in magical power, with each Zulkir representing a different school of magic. You might thwart the plans of a Red Wizard of Necromancy in one adventure, in which you confront his undead minions, but in another adventure you might deal with the illusory power of an Illusionist Red Wizard. That variety was nice, as was the power play between the various Zulkir’s. What’s not interesting is having all the Zulkir’s engage in necromancy, with Szass Tam the undisputed ruler of them all.

So my preference would be for Thay to go back to being more like it was. Zulkir’s who represent different magical disciplines, and each of which is a potential threat to Szass Tam, and a Thayvan population in which the living constitute the majority. I want to see the Red Wizards as an organization reemerge, with Mulan children being taken in and trained as Red Wizards. And should Mulhorand come back then a couple hundred thousand of them could end up going over to Thay to help repopulate the living Mulan population. Either way, Thay as an Icecrown equivalent with Szass Tam in the role of the Lich King is just not a good idea. Making the Red Wizards all about necromancy all the time is just plain boring.

As for their magical diversity, I have no idea how to handle that. It really depends on the magical rules in 5E. Will schools of magic come back? If they do then the answer is easy, as you could go back to how it was with a Zulkir for Necromancy, Illusion, Conjuration, etc. But if not, then there’re other options which could potentially be pursued. Maybe the Red Wizards are changed to account for other magical traditions beyond Wizard magic? Perhaps you can have a Zulkir who represents Swordmages, another who represents Warlocks, and one who represents Sorcerers? Then there’s the Zulkir of Wizards, the Zulkir of Necromancers (Szass Tam), and Zulkir’s representing any other magical traditions which exist in D&D 5E. That’s a possibility, although I’d prefer the traditional schools of magic (One way to handle that could potentially be through themes. Maybe a Forgotten Realms supplement could include "Illusionist", "Conjuerer", "Enchanter" themes which can be applied to Wizards to give them more of a specialist wizard flavor, thus allowing for Red Wizards as they were to return in some way).

So yeah, it’d be nice if Thay were to be put back on track to what it was. And if Mulhorand were to reappear, I’d love to see an escalation of conflict between the two, which would pit Thay’s magical might against Mulhorand’s divinely fueled power. I want to see a battle in which Wizards, Necromancers, and Swordmages duke it out with Clerics, Invokers, and Avengers.

15) Villains: I'm tired of all Shades, all the time. There should be an attempt to elevate all the villains of the Realms equally, instead of making everything about Netheril, the Shades, and Shar. Make Thay a major threat again, bring back Zhentil Keep and the Zhentarim and make them a major threat again, and so on. Put lots of emphasis on the activities of all the major evil gods, Shar, Cyric, Bane, Lolth, Asmodeus, Gruumsh, and hopefully Myrkul. The more the merrier because variety is what makes things interesting. The Shar Show is boring. The Shar, Bane, Cyric, Myrkul, Asmodeus, Gruumsh, & Lolth Show, however, would be a damn fine show to watch. Make them and their plots constant threats which have to be dealt with at all times, along with those threats posed by the Red Wizards, Netheril, the Cult of the Dragon, and more, and it'd be a very interesting setting.

16) Abeir: …can go pound sand. No interest in seeing it explored.

Anyway, that’s what I have for now. I’m sure I’ll think up more later on.

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Originally posted by deserk

Wouldn't you think they'd want to make the D&D settings as different as possible, so there's a lot of variety and so it appeals to as many different types of people as possible?

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Originally posted by Markustay

The point of this thread (I think), is to 'fix' the current setting, which unfortunately isn't the setting most of us like. So while I will remain helpful about what they should and shouldn't do, I don't expect it to be exactly what I want (nor should anyone else). I just want it to be the best it can be, to as many people as possible. If that means I can't have what I want, then so be it.

And the 4e lore isn't that bad - we just took exception to it (way too much, all at once). I think once Ed & Co. get done 're-imagining' all of it, we will have something most of us can live with. I have faith in Ed - he can take chop meat and turn it into Filet Mignon.

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Originally posted by sleyvas

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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

So on the topic of a new Thay...

My original idea for a Thayan Civil War put Thay-in-Exile in Mulmaster. They've already got a fair amount of influence there, so it wouldn't be difficult for them to make that the capital of their new realm.

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I like this idea if this group of Thayans actually work up enough power to seize a portion of the priador back and become the ones to form what I'm calling "Reborn Thay".

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Originally posted by The Sage

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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

It is canon that smoke powder is magical, and that gun powder will not work in the Realms.

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Indeed. It's been part of the official Realms firmament since the Old Grey Box:- "The physics of the Realms are slightly out of sync with the rest of the planes, so that gunpowder and many technological devices which operate on electronics do not function. Equivalent devices may be developed by player-characters. DM’s judgment is advised as to what may be allowed into the world." [DM's Sourcebook of the Realms pg. 9]

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Originally posted by Markustay

You know Vecna? Yeah... him.

But seriously, I have no idea either, thats just the vibe I got from people's posts about that series.

I liked what he was, and I think he still has potential. What I don't want to see is him becoming Larloch II: The Sequel. Its completely pointless to replace Larloch with someone just like him, and even more pointless to have two of them.

Tam being some creepy, 'legendary' (in 5e) "Lich on the Mount" sounds pretty cool, IMO. He was always more of a manipulator then Larloch, and he works well in that position (whereas Larloch was just pure magical might). In fact, they're almost like the undead version of Khelben and Elminster.

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Originally posted by Dennis

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Originally posted by sleyvas

quote:

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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

So on the topic of a new Thay...

My original idea for a Thayan Civil War put Thay-in-Exile in Mulmaster. They've already got a fair amount of influence there, so it wouldn't be difficult for them to make that the capital of their new realm.

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I like this idea if this group of Thayans actually work up enough power to seize a portion of the priador back and become the ones to form what I'm calling "Reborn Thay".

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I don't like a Thay-in-Exile. Thay is a big realm. Szass Tam could hardly control it. I'd rather the old and some newly minted zulkirs take back a part of it; dividing the land into North and South Thay; or at the very least, I'd like to see them try.

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Originally posted by Tarlyn

Here you go deserk, this is the best I can come up with since I no longer have a 4e CS to reference. I imagine I am missing a thing or two, but it is at least reflective of my overall opinion.

4e realms the good
-Return of Imaskar - It would be very interesting to see Imaskar take a place on the world stage and see what plans the Imaskari have for Faerun. Also, seeing Imaskar interacting with a Mulhorand and Unther as well as the many other world powers(Thay, Shade, Cormyr, Cormanthyr)
-Warlock knights of Vaasa - I don't remember anything about them, but at least there was one attempt to add a power group rather than just subtract them
-The CS cover art was pretty awesome - This is here mostly to pad the good list, but I did really like that Shade

4e realms the bad
-Destruction of the weave
-retconning in the Dawn War
-gloomy atmosphere and defeatist attitude the setting now contains
-Loss of defining magical traditions(spell schools,elven high magic, ciricle magic, shadow magic, spellfire, the red wizard dual specializations, Mythals)
-Focus on making magic users feared. Realms was and should be the setting that magic is viewed with awe. Leave casters being feared to Dragonlance, Ravenloft and Darksun
-Death of Mystra, Helm, Mask, Eilistraee
-Lathander transforming into Amaunator
-Loss of world wide trading
-Loss of power groups
-Setting populated exclusively by low-leveled npcs
-death of many of the high level immortal good aligned npcs(for that matter high level npcs in general)
-spell plague
-Merging of Deities
-Racial Pantheons disappearing
-Loss of Halruaa, Evermeet, Nimbral, Lantan, Luiren, Dambrath
-Thay becoming zombie land
-Calimshan becoming the land of the gensai
-Obould's WOW style orc kingdom inserted in the middle of the Silver Marshes
-Hordes of Dragonborn,Gensai and Tieflings (gensai and tieflings were well represented in 3e and Dragonborn reskinned as half-dragons can work fine)
-retcon of the Eladrin, Archons, Devas
-shrinking of the sea of fallen stars
-addition of giant rifts of dead space on the map
-the new moonsea and loss of the Zhentarim
-addition of the call of cthulhu elements
-100 year time gap (The only real problem I had was the design teams refusal to make new npcs, the issue for me with the time gap is it killed all the people that brought the setting to life.
If the design team just created new rulers, archmages, nobles, inn keepers, mercenary captains, caravan masters, street sweepers etc. It would not have been as much of a problem)
-Epic destinies
-4e cosmology
-MMO style zoning (i.e Neverwinter is a lvl 1- 10 area along with most of the rest of the setting, high level stuff is done on other planes.
In previous editions major cities like Neverwinter and Waterdeep could easily support lvls 1-how ever high your DM was willing to go.)
-Returned Abeir (It would be fine if it was relocated to not take up existing real estate)

4e realms the indifferent
-The removal of the real world ports like Mulhorand, Maztica etc is not really a deal breaker, I agree it wasn't the best idea to add them in 2e edition. However, their replacements lacked depth and from what I can tell despite 4 years of published novels, no author was able to convince WotC to base anything in them. Furthermore, most of their replacements were added in an annoying manner and the only two noteworthy ones are just added to give core 4e races a "homebase". Which IMO isn't a much better reason than people wanting to have various real world style areas. Also, Maztica does seem to have a small, but extremely loyal fanbase(which I am not part of, just to clarify). Finally, Mulhorand by itself is not particularly interesting IMO. However, its interactions with Thay were and now the possible interactions with Imaskar could be.
-Shade ruling Sembia is interesting, I could go either way with that one
-feywild and the shadowfell, I like both ideas in core, but the shadowfell doesn't really fit my vision of realms(I like necromancy to be more like 2e editions Complete Necromancer's handbook). I think the feywild could be kept.

5e hopes (correct all of the 4e the bad, I have highlighted a few of those points again below)
-Restoring all of the missing deities, magicial traditions, lands, unmerging the deities and doing something with Calimshan's genie horde
-My suggestion for Lathander and Amaunator would be having the deities be more regionally based and have a rivalry between. For instance, Halruaa, Thay and Imaskar would all acknowledge the older Amaunator. Younger nations like the Dales and Cormyr have a stronger Lathander presence. Places like Sembia, Cormanthyr and Waterdeep have intense rivalry between these two faiths.
-Thay; If I remember right, the old red wizards control what use to be the wizard's reach. I would like to see them start to reconquer Thay. However, over a hundred years some of Thay's darker deeds might not be remember and Old Thay kind of idealized by its descendants. The group of conquering Zulkirs should lean towards evil like the good olde days,
but I would include a misguided idealistic group. This group could be people raised on the stories of Thay's fight for freedom against Mulhorand and a kind of nationalistic history that conviently forgets things like becoming free only to become Tyrants. Finally, an element of the conquering army could be composed of a crusade against the undead launched by the churches of Lathander, Amaunator and Kelemvor. This again adds an element of complexity to the new Thay and could be an interesting power group by itself.
Again, I would have some of the more traditional good guy types in that Crusade. However, I would also have characters that's hatred of undead blind drives them more than their concern to protect the living. I would place 5e FR at a stalmate between Tam's forces and the reconquest.
-Represent Halruaa and Shade as two successor states to Nethril and delve into both Halruaa's mastery of arcana magic and Shades shadow magic
-Once Evermeet is restored as well as Everska, I would like to see Myth Drannor pursue Coronal Eltargrim's "Dream" and the city be home to many races and creeds. I would like it to start becoming that beacon of hope for all civilization in the realms that made it famous.
-Along with the restoration of the old power groups, I would like to see some well thought out new power groups.
-Bring back the influence of the Twist Rune throughout the southern sword coast
-Return of some of the old npcs and add some new NPCs that are detailed in personality enough to bring life to the setting(you don't need stat blocks, but npcs add character to the setting and make it seem like it isn't just waiting to be saved by the PCs)
-Imaskar had a pretty powerful magical tradition, they should be taking part in some of the events in the larger setting not just sitting around doing nothing. Think somekind of shadowy power group like Mass Effects 2 Cerebrus (allowing DMs to choose if their questionable activies are for good or evil or made just there own benefit).
-Again adding new wrinkles to the setting is cool, but focus on creating stuff rather than just directly porting stuff from core whole cloth. Also, make sure anything added fits within the context of the setting, for instance Lightsabers are cool, but Realms doesn't need them.

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Originally posted by Tarlyn

Additional 5e hopes

5e hopes
-Vhaeraun and Eilistraee both should have experience some growing pains during the past hundred years. Redefining both deities a little to broaden their appeal. For instance, I would like to see it noted that Eilistraee goes with a little more rangery look and uses a bow again(still have swordmanship be her big thing, but she realizes that Lolth influenced her shot). Keep the dancing naked in moonlight glades as a clerical ritual, but allow Eilistraee a more feminist default appearance. Vhaeraun would be more interesting to me as a CN deity rather than CE. Maybe time spent merged with Eilistraee made him realize that it was his own cruelty that caused his bad relationship with Corellon Larethian. Also, in both cases the gender restrictions with divine casters should be removed. That way the drow have three distinct choices of deity CE, CN, CG.

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Originally posted by Tarlyn


-Dambrath - secular drow controlled state. Dambrath should include half-drow and possibly Abeir refugee elves other races would be fine too. I would have the clerics of Vhaeraun, Eilistraee and Lolth all have influence in the region, but I would not have them with official power.

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Originally posted by Tarlyn

A non-theocracy drow state is some thing that has never received a lot of attention in D&D. Also, it would be interesting to see how priestess of Lolth interact in a society that they do not control.

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Originally posted by Tarlyn

Additional 5e hopes

5e hopes
-Vhaeraun and Eilistraee both should have experience some growing pains during the past hundred years. Redefining both deities a little to broaden their appeal. For instance, I would like to see it noted that Eilistraee goes with a little more rangery look and uses a bow again(still have swordmanship be her big thing, but she realizes that Lolth influenced her shot). Keep the dancing naked in moonlight glades as a clerical ritual, but allow Eilistraee a more feminist default appearance. Vhaeraun would be more interesting to me as a CN deity rather than CE. Maybe time spent merged with Eilistraee made him realize that it was his own cruelty that caused his bad relationship with Corellon Larethian. Also, in both cases the gender restrictions with divine casters should be removed. That way the drow have three distinct choices of deity CE, CN, CG.

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Vhaeraun's Dogma, from Demihuman Deities

The shadows of the Masked Lord must cast off the tyranny of the Spider Queen and forcibly reclaim their birthright and rightful place in the Night Above. The existing drow matriarchies must be smashed, and the warring practices of twisted Lolth done away with so that the drow are welded into a united people, not a squabbling gaggle of rival Houses, clans, and aims. Vhaeraun will lead his followers into a society where the Ilythiiri once again reign supreme over the other, lesser races, and there is equality between males and females.

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Originally posted by Markustay

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Originally posted by combatmedic

Longbows (meaning relatively long self bows) did NOT render heavy armor obselete in the real world.

Five or six foot selfbows have been around for much longer than plate or mail armor.

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I guess my teachers and the History Channel were both wrong, then.

According to both sources, the English Longbow effectively ended the age of Chivalry. The English became so enamored with their longbows that they were the last (major) European nation to stop using them in favor of guns (that directly from the History channel).

According to Wiki, they were capable of penetrating mail armor, depending upon the skill of the user, the weight of the bow, and the type of arrow head used. Even with all those stringent conditions, it still means a peasant could take down a mounted knight with a very good shot.

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Originally posted by Gustaveren

I noticed another list you have not yet included in the first post

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Originally posted by deserk

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Originally posted by Tarlyn

Additional 5e hopes

5e hopes
-Vhaeraun and Eilistraee both should have experience some growing pains during the past hundred years. Redefining both deities a little to broaden their appeal. For instance, I would like to see it noted that Eilistraee goes with a little more rangery look and uses a bow again(still have swordmanship be her big thing, but she realizes that Lolth influenced her shot). Keep the dancing naked in moonlight glades as a clerical ritual, but allow Eilistraee a more feminist default appearance. Vhaeraun would be more interesting to me as a CN deity rather than CE. Maybe time spent merged with Eilistraee made him realize that it was his own cruelty that caused his bad relationship with Corellon Larethian. Also, in both cases the gender restrictions with divine casters should be removed. That way the drow have three distinct choices of deity CE, CN, CG.

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Personally, I'm not really that much a fan of Eilistraee, and think it is vital that she remains one of the least influential of the Dark Seldarine deities. Too much "good" influence among the drow is really not a good idea in my opinion. Most drow always have been and always should be, aligned towards evil, as that's what makes them drow. Drizzt's story wouldn't really be special at all if there were many drow who thought like him.

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I don't really agree with the idea of Vhaeraun becoming a Chaotic Neutral deity. Personally I really like Vhaeraun as he is. It would be weird in my opinion, for there to even be chance of "good" Vhaeraunites popping about.

However, I wouldn't mind if FR developers re-emphasised what Vhaeraun views as important. For me, the dogma part as described here in Demihuman Deities, defines Vhaeraun for me more than anything else.

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Vhaeraun's Dogma, from Demihuman Deities

The shadows of the Masked Lord must cast off the tyranny of the Spider Queen and forcibly reclaim their birthright and rightful place in the Night Above. The existing drow matriarchies must be smashed, and the warring practices of twisted Lolth done away with so that the drow are welded into a united people, not a squabbling gaggle of rival Houses, clans, and aims. Vhaeraun will lead his followers into a society where the Ilythiiri once again reign supreme over the other, lesser races, and there is equality between males and females.

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While I think Vhaeraun could be looked upon in many ways, I personally think Vhaeraun would be looked upon with more interest, if that aspect of Vhaeraun's dogma were more clearly focused on (as opposed to solely focusing on him being a god of thieves) where he is a supremacist drow god like Lolth, but a revolutionary alternative, where the class/sex/background doesn't matter anywhere near as much in Lolthite societies, and it's rather one's personal strength, intelligence and commitment to the Masked Lord's creed that defines one's station. And also what's interesting and shouldn't be neglected in my opinion, is the aspect of him being hellbent and focused on reconquering the "ancestral" lands of the surface, through force or subtle means, rendering him as a kind anti-Eilistraee (which he should be, as he is Eilistraee's evil brother).

Thievery and subterfuge should all just be part of the tools that are characteristic of Vhaeraun and his followers. Used, in the overall goal of weakening rival factions, through instigating instability and rebellions. But it should by no means, be what tools they are solely limited to using.

In many ways, Vhaeraun is kind of the true god of the drow, because his character corresponds very well with general character of the drow, as he is a shadowy, scheming, cunning and deceptive god, and always takes advantage of other gods' and factions' vulnerability.

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