| Author |
 Topic  |
|
Mapolq
Senior Scribe
Brazil
466 Posts |
 Posted - 01 Sep 2012 : 17:29:11
|
quote:
Originally posted by combatmedic
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Three possibilities: (1) Phil Athans wasn't made aware of that lore; (2) Devorast didn't exactly know everything about the smokepowder's nature; or (3) they changed that lore in 4E.
Could Devorast have been pulling her leg, or flat out lying to her?Would that be out of character?
But yeah, it is odd.
Odder still is 'rare earth elements.' Sulfur isn't very rare on Earth; I don't think it's rare on Toril. Charcoal and saltpeter can't be rare. Saltpetre can be processed from stables-- plenty of those. Charcoal is made from wood. Plenty of that.
So maybe he is talking about some non-magical, but expensive due to components, explosive that is NOT gunpowder at all. Maybe the smoke powder he is using is something else? Could 'smoke powder' just be a word for 'any powdered explosive'?
I don't think Phil Athans intended Devorast to be lying, or for that, matter, to be wrong, considering the character we're speaking of. The "rare earth elements" bit may have been a bit of a flourish though. As others have said, he also described smokepowder as needing charcoal, sulphur and saltpeter, and said sulphur is abundant on the shores of the Lake of Steam, while saltpeter is produced in rural estates (such as Berrywilde in the book). The recipe is supposed to be little known, and the alchemist Surero makes adjustments to the mix, which implies there's no standard recipe. There's no mention of any kind of secret ingredient, though. I think Athans either wasn't very aware of the status of smokepowder in the Realms or actually wanted to deviate from canon in this instance. In any case, if you consider both the Watercourse trilogy and earlier sources canon, you can explain away the inconsistencies by saying there's more than one way to create "smokepowder", like suggested by Dennis.
I like to go with the non-magical smokepowder approach myself. In my games it is the same thing as gunpowder and is gaining popularity throughout the Realms. It is a novel technology, however, less than 20 years old in Faerûn. Even though the advance of firearms is accelerated in the Realms than on medieval Earth due to the more integrated economy and the priesthood of Gond, I wouldn't expect guns to phase out armour and castles for at least a century or two, though (and for those who play in the late 15th century, the Spellplague nuked the economy of Faerûn, so there's a perfect explanation why fireams wouldn't have evolved that much).
And I don't really see the worry about spellcasters being outclassed by gunpowder. Magic is an overwhelmingly more powerful tool than anything gunpowder can achieve. For powerful spellcasters, firearms would be just another curiosity they could experiment with, or happily ignore.
About trains, I love them, and I'm putting experimental railroads in my Realms, but I wouldn't expect them to ever appear on canon. |
Never sleep under the jackfruit tree.
Tales of Moonsea - A Neverwinter Nights 2 Persistent World. Check out our website at http://www.talesofmoonsea.com and our video trailer at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=am304WqOAAo&feature=youtu.be, as well as our thread here at Candlekeep: http://www.forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=12955
My campaign thread: http://www.forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=16447 |
Edited by - Mapolq on 01 Sep 2012 17:34:39 |
 |
|
|
Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 01 Sep 2012 : 17:46:47
|
I was going to do the 'quotey thing', but I'm being lazy.
The Unther and Mulhorand peoples are Mulan. If New Thay were to spring up somewhere around the Alamber sea, then a 'Pure Mulan Blood' situation is viable. It would be the unifying factor for all three peoples, to rally to and fight off 'the invaders' (in the case of Imaskar, their 'old masters').
Smokepowder is canonically the same formula as Black powder. Sorry, NOTHING in canon indicates there are two types.
What I preposed in another thread (two actually, there was one over at WotC) is that the physical components are identical, and then there is some sort of 'secret dweomer' that gets applied to the concoction which allows it to ignore Realmspace's physics (I dubbed Ao's anti-tech rules as "Ao's Edict"). I assume its a spell created by Gondsmen (and far-eastern alchemists) that is capable of this simply because in this case, Gond's portfolio of invention is able to over-ride certain aspects of Ao's edict.
Thats the best solution, since we know - in CANON - that the physical components are the same. Anyone can mix the stuff, but it takes magic to make it 'stable' (capable of functioning within Realmspace). I am not asking for it to become like the old west - I am thinking more along the lines of very early cannon warfare (where cannons did in fact blow-up a lot). Loading and firing early chemical projectile weapons was an art, not like it is today where anyone can just pick up a gun and shoot. Going with that type of usage, the flavor of FR wouldn't be changed much at all.
Hell, we got longbows - that means heavy armor shouldn't be viable anymore in The Realms... but it is. The accuracy and penetrating power of bows far outstrip early guns. Personally, I think it was the size of the ammunition over everything else that made so many countries switch-over; bows were better for the longest time. If that's the case, bags (quivers) of holding alleviates that problem. Until multi-shot weapons came into usage, guns were inferior to bows in most cases (you can't sneak-up on your enemies firing guns). Many of the arguments against guns in the Forgotten Realms can be applied to our RW, and yet, guns still eventually came into vogue. The difference between humans and other races is that humans never give up - they will keep working on something until they get it right (unlike gnomes, who will keep working on something until they get it wrong). Assuming humanity is less creative simply because magic is around is a bad idea - if anything, they'd become more creative (like in Eberron, or Iron Kingdoms).
I'm not asking for a steampunk setting - I just a little bit of coverage on something we know exists. While many here would like to see Smokepowder 'just go away', I don't find that logical, especially during a century when magic became highly unstable. When magic fails, people turned to tech. But whatever... lets keep the Realms exactly the same forever and ever. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
|
Edited by - Markustay on 01 Sep 2012 17:55:35 |
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36968 Posts |
Posted - 01 Sep 2012 : 18:01:24
|
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Smokepowder is canonically the same formula as Black powder. Sorry, NOTHING in canon indicates there are two types.
Tell me where, in canon, we have the formula for smoke powder. And tell me where, in canon, it is stated that this magical substance is formed by nothing more than the mixture of non-magical substances. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36968 Posts |
Posted - 01 Sep 2012 : 18:03:26
|
quote:
Originally posted by Mapolq
And I don't really see the worry about spellcasters being outclassed by gunpowder. Magic is an overwhelmingly more powerful tool than anything gunpowder can achieve. For powerful spellcasters, firearms would be just another curiosity they could experiment with, or happily ignore.
Magic can overpower gunpowder, yes. But you have to study and train to be able to do that. Anyone can pick up a gun and kill someone, with no training whatsoever. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
|
|
|
Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 01 Sep 2012 : 18:29:15
|
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Smokepowder is canonically the same formula as Black powder. Sorry, NOTHING in canon indicates there are two types.
Tell me where, in canon, we have the formula for smoke powder. And tell me where, in canon, it is stated that this magical substance is formed by nothing more than the mixture of non-magical substances.
The ingredients were spelled-out in Watercourse. I have never read the book, but others have provided the sited paragraph numerous times before (there was a big discussion about this on the WotC boards).
Also, the terms 'Black Powder' and 'Smoke Powder' are used interchangeably several times in the novel Dragonwall, which indicates to me its the same physical substance. Also, in the Realmspace material (SJ), it states that the two are interchangeable as well - you just need to use Smokepowder in your weapon while in Realmspace. While thats not definitive, its indicates that all physical aspects of the chemical reaction remain the same (burn rate, explosive force, etc).
The only difference between the two, apparently, is that magic is required to make it functional in FR. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
|
|
|
|
Mapolq
Senior Scribe
Brazil
466 Posts |
Posted - 01 Sep 2012 : 19:27:05
|
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Tell me where, in canon, we have the formula for smoke powder. And tell me where, in canon, it is stated that this magical substance is formed by nothing more than the mixture of non-magical substances.
Lies of Light, page 141:
Surero chuckled, nodded and said, "I don't have a single grain of saltpeter left, and no one in Innarlith will sell it to me."
Devorast nodded, thinking, then said, "Phyrea's father harvests saltpeter at his country estate. I saw the lean-to when I worked there."
"That's interesting, but isn't Phyrea's father the master builder, and one of Rymüt's closest allies in the senate?" Devorast shrugged. "If Rymüt doesn't want to us to have it - doesn't want me to have it since he's mage enough to know what I'm going to use it for - he'll never sell it to us. I'm going to need a lot of it too. Three quarters of every sack is sulphur, a tenth is saltpeter and the rest charcoal. A young lady can't just hide it in her pockets and walk it out to us."
So there it is. Athans more or less switched the ratio of sulphur to saltpeter around, no idea why. But there's no mention of anything magical or very exotic about it.
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Magic can overpower gunpowder, yes. But you have to study and train to be able to do that. Anyone can pick up a gun and kill someone, with no training whatsoever.
Pretty much the same thing can be said of crossbows. Anyone can walk up to a powerful mage, shoot a bolt to his face, and kill him, if he's not prepared. And if he is prepared, well, good luck trying to take him down with an 18th century rifle. Anything before the first effective repeating guns isn't such a large improvement to existing technology. Cannons can make a considerable impact on siege warfare and naval combat, but they were generally too cumbersome to be used in the field until the 17th century. Even then, the worst that could be said is that wizards would be challenged in their role as artillery. But spellcasters can adapt in the course of a few years - there's infinitely many possibilities for acquiring power and wealth through magic. |
Never sleep under the jackfruit tree.
Tales of Moonsea - A Neverwinter Nights 2 Persistent World. Check out our website at http://www.talesofmoonsea.com and our video trailer at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=am304WqOAAo&feature=youtu.be, as well as our thread here at Candlekeep: http://www.forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=12955
My campaign thread: http://www.forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=16447 |
Edited by - Mapolq on 01 Sep 2012 19:35:16 |
|
|
|
Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 01 Sep 2012 : 20:07:12
|
| And using my thesis - that it is a non-magical substance with a dweomer applied - means that a simple dispel magic would make it inert (within Realmspace). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
|
|
|
|
PaulBestwick
Seeker
United Kingdom
83 Posts |
Posted - 01 Sep 2012 : 21:08:09
|
| Well Gond might need to be careful with Ao recreating the Tablets of Fate, the rules could get a little tighter (if anyone in the story dept at WoTC wanted) and Smokepowder would not work. |
|
|
|
Gyor
Master of Realmslore
1632 Posts |
Posted - 01 Sep 2012 : 21:50:49
|
Wizards are so much more then a few fire balls. They can cast illusions, summoning spells, abjurations, undead, magical rites ect...
And the reason smoke powder is rare is because most rulers have banned it. Its no accident that nationalist and communist revoluntions never happened until the existance of guns.
One way to create a down side to smoke powde is simply to make it more unstable. Say the presence of magic itself has a 10 percent chance to sponsanously combust in the presence of magic. |
|
|
|
Gyor
Master of Realmslore
1632 Posts |
Posted - 01 Sep 2012 : 21:53:03
|
| Another thought is treat it simularly to Alchemist bombs (Alchemist class from Pathfinder). |
|
|
|
Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 01 Sep 2012 : 22:26:30
|
And in the post-Spellplague world, magic would have been so unstable that anything stabilized by magic would be risky to use.
It doesn't have to be in the limelight - just so long as its noted to be there (as it has been since the ToT).
Unless....
quote:
Originally posted by PaulBestwick
Well Gond might need to be careful with Ao recreating the Tablets of Fate, the rules could get a little tighter (if anyone in the story dept at WoTC wanted) and Smokepowder would not work.
Excellent Point. That would make perfect sense.
If they do want to get rid of it completely in 5eFR, then this is the best way to un-do yet another of the ToT blunders. Good call. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
|
Edited by - Markustay on 01 Sep 2012 22:27:40 |
|
|
|
Gustaveren
Learned Scribe
Denmark
197 Posts |
Posted - 01 Sep 2012 : 22:30:22
|
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
And in the post-Spellplague world, magic would have been so unstable that anything stabilized by magic would be risky to use.
It doesn't have to be in the limelight - just so long as its noted to be there (as it has been since the ToT).
Unless....
quote:
Originally posted by PaulBestwick
Well Gond might need to be careful with Ao recreating the Tablets of Fate, the rules could get a little tighter (if anyone in the story dept at WoTC wanted) and Smokepowder would not work.
Excellent Point. That would make perfect sense.
If they do want to get rid of it completely in 5eFR, then this is the best way to un-do yet another of the ToT blunders. Good call.
It could also be the first new magic rule from the new mystra incarnation |
|
|
|
The Red Walker
Great Reader
USA
3567 Posts |
Posted - 01 Sep 2012 : 23:10:04
|
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
And using my thesis - that it is a non-magical substance with a dweomer applied - means that a simple dispel magic would make it inert (within Realmspace).
Then using your logic, the unstablity of Magic after the spell plague, would have rendered smoke powder unusable since you supposed it was what made it stable enough to use. so following your thinking, after the spell plague, smoke powder would have disappeared from use with no way to stabilize it.
Brilliant! I love it, you just made smoke powder disappear from the realms, naturally and logically. No recon, no rewrite, using lore.
QED.
I appreciate that, a beer or three from me next time we meet.
|
A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka
"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -
John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
|
Edited by - The Red Walker on 01 Sep 2012 23:15:12 |
|
|
|
The Red Walker
Great Reader
USA
3567 Posts |
Posted - 01 Sep 2012 : 23:14:17
|
And another wish, since Mystra's comin back....I want Mystra not midnight. The realms needs the deity who understands what magic means to the realms and can handle herself. Not an immature former mortal who lets her hatred of Cyric force her into bad decision after bad decision. midnight can be an exarch.....or better yet an enchanted lamp for Kelemvor to read by |
A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka
"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -
John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
|
|
|
|
Gyor
Master of Realmslore
1632 Posts |
Posted - 02 Sep 2012 : 02:44:48
|
The things I liked from 4e that I liked about the realms that I hope carry over to 5e.
1. Abolethic Sovergienty, especially the capitol city of Xxipu.
2. Feywild
3. New Races from 4e
4. As seen in my thread Ardents and Vrylokas (which count as number three)
5. Primal Spirits
6. The Beastlands
7. Warlock Knights of the Vaast
8. Primordials
9. Spellscarred even though I'd like most of the plague lands gone.
10. That Paladins are no longer restricted to certain lawful Neutral Lawful/Lawful Good/Neutral Good Gods and Sune, and that Blackguards don't have to be evil.
Things I'm looking forward to coming back or gaining.
1. Mulhorand
2. Unther
3. The Gods
4. The Death of the term Exarch
5. Rebuilding of many distroyed areas and cities
6. The Sundering novels
7. Proper Aasmir (none Devas not I don't like Devas, I just didn't like them eatting Aasmir)
8. Proper Archons and an explaination about the weird name sharing thing.
9. Ditto Eldrin
10. The other contineints back, like Matezica.
Some of that maybe wishful thinking, like Aasmir and Archons.
|
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36968 Posts |
Posted - 02 Sep 2012 : 02:51:45
|
quote:
Originally posted by Mapolq
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Tell me where, in canon, we have the formula for smoke powder. And tell me where, in canon, it is stated that this magical substance is formed by nothing more than the mixture of non-magical substances.
Lies of Light, page 141:
Surero chuckled, nodded and said, "I don't have a single grain of saltpeter left, and no one in Innarlith will sell it to me."
Devorast nodded, thinking, then said, "Phyrea's father harvests saltpeter at his country estate. I saw the lean-to when I worked there."
"That's interesting, but isn't Phyrea's father the master builder, and one of Rymüt's closest allies in the senate?" Devorast shrugged. "If Rymüt doesn't want to us to have it - doesn't want me to have it since he's mage enough to know what I'm going to use it for - he'll never sell it to us. I'm going to need a lot of it too. Three quarters of every sack is sulphur, a tenth is saltpeter and the rest charcoal. A young lady can't just hide it in her pockets and walk it out to us."
So there it is. Athans more or less switched the ratio of sulphur to saltpeter around, no idea why. But there's no mention of anything magical or very exotic about it.
I don't see any reference to that being smoke powder, either. It is canon that smoke powder is magical, and that gun powder will not work in the Realms.
Someone naming some ingredients does not invalidate that.
quote:
Originally posted by Mapolq
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Magic can overpower gunpowder, yes. But you have to study and train to be able to do that. Anyone can pick up a gun and kill someone, with no training whatsoever.
Pretty much the same thing can be said of crossbows. Anyone can walk up to a powerful mage, shoot a bolt to his face, and kill him, if he's not prepared. And if he is prepared, well, good luck trying to take him down with an 18th century rifle. Anything before the first effective repeating guns isn't such a large improvement to existing technology. Cannons can make a considerable impact on siege warfare and naval combat, but they were generally too cumbersome to be used in the field until the 17th century. Even then, the worst that could be said is that wizards would be challenged in their role as artillery. But spellcasters can adapt in the course of a few years - there's infinitely many possibilities for acquiring power and wealth through magic.
I'm not talking about wealth and power, and I'm not talking about taking years to acquire it, either. I'm talking about the fact that any yahoo can pick up a gun and kill someone with it, with no training whatsoever. A mage has to study for years to get to that point, and the time to do that is not something everyone has -- nor the intelligence or the aptitude.
When one person can only accomplish something with skill and training, and someone else can use a tool to do the same thing on accident, that's an equalizer.
Yes, someone can be killed with a crossbow, too. But that crossbow bolt won't have the range, speed, or power of the bullet. You can dodge a crossbow bolt -- not so easy to do that with a bullet. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
|
|
|
Gyor
Master of Realmslore
1632 Posts |
Posted - 02 Sep 2012 : 03:03:02
|
| If all the dead deities come back, might all Gods of magic come back, including all three versions of the Goddess of Magic plus Karus? |
|
|
|
The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 02 Sep 2012 : 03:03:45
|
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
It is canon that smoke powder is magical, and that gun powder will not work in the Realms.
Indeed. It's been part of the official Realms firmament since the Old Grey Box:- "The physics of the Realms are slightly out of sync with the rest of the planes, so that gunpowder and many technological devices which operate on electronics do not function. Equivalent devices may be developed by player-characters. DM’s judgment is advised as to what may be allowed into the world." [DM's Sourcebook of the Realms pg. 9] |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
|
|
|
sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12194 Posts |
Posted - 02 Sep 2012 : 03:24:16
|
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I was going to do the 'quotey thing', but I'm being lazy.
The Unther and Mulhorand peoples are Mulan. If New Thay were to spring up somewhere around the Alamber sea, then a 'Pure Mulan Blood' situation is viable. It would be the unifying factor for all three peoples, to rally to and fight off 'the invaders' (in the case of Imaskar, their 'old masters').
Smokepowder is canonically the same formula as Black powder. Sorry, NOTHING in canon indicates there are two types.
What I preposed in another thread (two actually, there was one over at WotC) is that the physical components are identical, and then there is some sort of 'secret dweomer' that gets applied to the concoction which allows it to ignore Realmspace's physics (I dubbed Ao's anti-tech rules as "Ao's Edict"). I assume its a spell created by Gondsmen (and far-eastern alchemists) that is capable of this simply because in this case, Gond's portfolio of invention is able to over-ride certain aspects of Ao's edict.
Thats the best solution, since we know - in CANON - that the physical components are the same. Anyone can mix the stuff, but it takes magic to make it 'stable' (capable of functioning within Realmspace). I am not asking for it to become like the old west - I am thinking more along the lines of very early cannon warfare (where cannons did in fact blow-up a lot). Loading and firing early chemical projectile weapons was an art, not like it is today where anyone can just pick up a gun and shoot. Going with that type of usage, the flavor of FR wouldn't be changed much at all.
Hell, we got longbows - that means heavy armor shouldn't be viable anymore in The Realms... but it is. The accuracy and penetrating power of bows far outstrip early guns. Personally, I think it was the size of the ammunition over everything else that made so many countries switch-over; bows were better for the longest time. If that's the case, bags (quivers) of holding alleviates that problem. Until multi-shot weapons came into usage, guns were inferior to bows in most cases (you can't sneak-up on your enemies firing guns). Many of the arguments against guns in the Forgotten Realms can be applied to our RW, and yet, guns still eventually came into vogue. The difference between humans and other races is that humans never give up - they will keep working on something until they get it right (unlike gnomes, who will keep working on something until they get it wrong). Assuming humanity is less creative simply because magic is around is a bad idea - if anything, they'd become more creative (like in Eberron, or Iron Kingdoms).
I'm not asking for a steampunk setting - I just a little bit of coverage on something we know exists. While many here would like to see Smokepowder 'just go away', I don't find that logical, especially during a century when magic became highly unstable. When magic fails, people turned to tech. But whatever... lets keep the Realms exactly the same forever and ever.
I'll agree with that idea of pure mulan blood voting if the area were closer to the Alamber. In fact, since I've proposed 2 different ideas for returned Thay areas, I probably should have specified more closely which I was discussing the political architecture for (because if there were some kind of voting allowed in the "reborn Thay" idea where some zulkirs return to the priador.... it'd definitely be all about race with them).
I also agree with you about the cannon idea. I think it best to keep smokepowder still a magical substance to make it something thats use is tightly controlled. The idea that it can be created alchemically but is HIGHLY unstable and can then be stabilized via spell is also an interesting idea. Your point about ammunition size definitely rings true as well, and maybe that should be pointed out in the new campaign setting for why small arms technology never took off. In fact, it would be very interesting if its noted in the new campaign setting that there were a couple major battles where longbowmen decimated gun wielders and the popularity of small arms research declined (after all, success drives research). Maybe some folks still employ large hand cannons that need to have a fuse put in it and lit... but that's less for combat and more to say blow a hole in a door.... or for that initial volley in combat. Essentially, I see smokepowder use in the "new realms" as more of a siege breaking tool, or transport disabling tool, or something that you use against vast swathes of an army. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
|
|
|
sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12194 Posts |
Posted - 02 Sep 2012 : 03:43:55
|
Also, as long as we're discussing it... cannons in the realms DON'T NEED TO BE USING SMOKEPOWDER OR GUNPOWDER. The original gray box had "cannons" of sorts.. that being the Thayan bombards. However, they were powered by a liquid explosion (aka, something akin to rocket fuel). Now, if someone were to say advance the technology to the point that something that gained accuracy at the cost of destructive capacity were achieved, I could see a liquid cannon of sorts being developed.... if that makes people feel better about including cannons in the realms.
"The Thayian bombards are mystical devices which fire a screaming blue death upon enemy ships. Each fortress has four of these cast-iron monsters, which have a minimum range of 120 yards and a maximum range of 480 yards. They fire huge hollow stone balls filled with fluid sold by the Wizards of Thay that, placed in the bombard, ignites and carries the flaming stone ball to its target, inflicting 5-30 points fire damage, 2-12 points hull damage, and setting all flammables stuck ablaze. These bombards are wonders of this age, but are hampered by their size (each is larger than a manor-house in Waterdeep), their required fluid (which the Thayians part with at a dear price), and a lack of accuracy, for while the bombard may fire once every two turns, it only has a 1 in 10 chance of hitting its target." |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
|
|
|
sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12194 Posts |
Posted - 02 Sep 2012 : 04:20:06
|
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I was going to do the 'quotey thing', but I'm being lazy.
The Unther and Mulhorand peoples are Mulan. If New Thay were to spring up somewhere around the Alamber sea, then a 'Pure Mulan Blood' situation is viable. It would be the unifying factor for all three peoples, to rally to and fight off 'the invaders' (in the case of Imaskar, their 'old masters').
Smokepowder is canonically the same formula as Black powder. Sorry, NOTHING in canon indicates there are two types.
What I preposed in another thread (two actually, there was one over at WotC) is that the physical components are identical, and then there is some sort of 'secret dweomer' that gets applied to the concoction which allows it to ignore Realmspace's physics (I dubbed Ao's anti-tech rules as "Ao's Edict"). I assume its a spell created by Gondsmen (and far-eastern alchemists) that is capable of this simply because in this case, Gond's portfolio of invention is able to over-ride certain aspects of Ao's edict.
Thats the best solution, since we know - in CANON - that the physical components are the same. Anyone can mix the stuff, but it takes magic to make it 'stable' (capable of functioning within Realmspace). I am not asking for it to become like the old west - I am thinking more along the lines of very early cannon warfare (where cannons did in fact blow-up a lot). Loading and firing early chemical projectile weapons was an art, not like it is today where anyone can just pick up a gun and shoot. Going with that type of usage, the flavor of FR wouldn't be changed much at all.
Hell, we got longbows - that means heavy armor shouldn't be viable anymore in The Realms... but it is. The accuracy and penetrating power of bows far outstrip early guns. Personally, I think it was the size of the ammunition over everything else that made so many countries switch-over; bows were better for the longest time. If that's the case, bags (quivers) of holding alleviates that problem. Until multi-shot weapons came into usage, guns were inferior to bows in most cases (you can't sneak-up on your enemies firing guns). Many of the arguments against guns in the Forgotten Realms can be applied to our RW, and yet, guns still eventually came into vogue. The difference between humans and other races is that humans never give up - they will keep working on something until they get it right (unlike gnomes, who will keep working on something until they get it wrong). Assuming humanity is less creative simply because magic is around is a bad idea - if anything, they'd become more creative (like in Eberron, or Iron Kingdoms).
I'm not asking for a steampunk setting - I just a little bit of coverage on something we know exists. While many here would like to see Smokepowder 'just go away', I don't find that logical, especially during a century when magic became highly unstable. When magic fails, people turned to tech. But whatever... lets keep the Realms exactly the same forever and ever.
I'll agree with that idea of pure mulan blood voting if the area were closer to the Alamber. In fact, since I've proposed 2 different ideas for returned Thay areas, I probably should have specified more closely which I was discussing the political architecture for (because if there were some kind of voting allowed in the "reborn Thay" idea where some zulkirs return to the priador.... it'd definitely be all about race with them).
I also agree with you about the cannon idea. I think it best to keep smokepowder still a magical substance to make it something thats use is tightly controlled. The idea that it can be created alchemically but is HIGHLY unstable and can then be stabilized via spell is also an interesting idea. Your point about ammunition size definitely rings true as well, and maybe that should be pointed out in the new campaign setting for why small arms technology never took off. In fact, it would be very interesting if its noted in the new campaign setting that there were a couple major battles where longbowmen decimated gun wielders and the popularity of small arms research declined (after all, success drives research). Maybe some folks still employ large hand cannons that need to have a fuse put in it and lit... but that's less for combat and more to say blow a hole in a door.... or for that initial volley in combat. Essentially, I see smokepowder use in the "new realms" as more of a siege breaking tool, or transport disabling tool, or something that you use against vast swathes of an army.
Oh, and what I meant about ammunitition size ringing true is that realms armies wouldn't have as much issue with ammunition size whenever they have extradimensional spaces for storage (an argument you brought up). In fact, the stability of their ammunition could be made to give examples as to why people deterred from small arms technology in the realms. Perhaps some historical references to one battle where the enemies smokepowder stores were turned against them with flaming bolts of magic (causing fireball-like explosions amongst the enemy with minor spells). Then maybe a reference to a battle between lots of gun wielders and a few archers, wherein the archers are decimating the gun wielders but they're constantly having their ammunition stores replaced by small children running amongst them with bags of holding and dropping out one quiver of arrows after another. This kind of thing might stop small arms development, but then maybe cannons prove the difference in some siege against a fortress of giants... breaking through the walls. Nothing says that technological developments in the realms even remotely has to mirror our own world's. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
|
|
|
Mapolq
Senior Scribe
Brazil
466 Posts |
Posted - 02 Sep 2012 : 04:45:02
|
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Mapolq
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Tell me where, in canon, we have the formula for smoke powder. And tell me where, in canon, it is stated that this magical substance is formed by nothing more than the mixture of non-magical substances.
Lies of Light, page 141:
Surero chuckled, nodded and said, "I don't have a single grain of saltpeter left, and no one in Innarlith will sell it to me."
Devorast nodded, thinking, then said, "Phyrea's father harvests saltpeter at his country estate. I saw the lean-to when I worked there."
"That's interesting, but isn't Phyrea's father the master builder, and one of Rymüt's closest allies in the senate?" Devorast shrugged. "If Rymüt doesn't want to us to have it - doesn't want me to have it since he's mage enough to know what I'm going to use it for - he'll never sell it to us. I'm going to need a lot of it too. Three quarters of every sack is sulphur, a tenth is saltpeter and the rest charcoal. A young lady can't just hide it in her pockets and walk it out to us."
So there it is. Athans more or less switched the ratio of sulphur to saltpeter around, no idea why. But there's no mention of anything magical or very exotic about it.
I don't see any reference to that being smoke powder, either. It is canon that smoke powder is magical, and that gun powder will not work in the Realms.
Someone naming some ingredients does not invalidate that.
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
Indeed. It's been part of the official Realms firmament since the Old Grey Box:- "The physics of the Realms are slightly out of sync with the rest of the planes, so that gunpowder and many technological devices which operate on electronics do not function. Equivalent devices may be developed by player-characters. DM’s judgment is advised as to what may be allowed into the world." [DM's Sourcebook of the Realms pg. 9]
I just left the fact Surero was talking about smokepowder implied because I don't want to quote practically the entire chapter. I will expand it a bit, though, and hopefully that will be made clear:
Lies of Light, page 138:
His measurements completed, Devorast led him back up the hill. Surero blinked in the drizzle and ran a hand through his wet hair. They climbed the low hill and stepped into the little hut they'd built to store the smokepowder.
[...]
Lies of Light, page 139:
Devorast glanced at him as he walked past with the sack of smokepowder, and Surero could see a trace of a grimace on his lips.
[...]
Lies of Light, page 140
Devorast tied the end of the smokepowder-infused twine onto the top of the sack, then lowered it down the hole. Surero watched Devorast count the depth from knots that had been tied in the rope every foot. When the sack finally rested on the bottom, and Devorast had counted nine knots, he stood and walked back up the hill, trailing the twine as he went.
"Aren´t you paying me to do that?" the alchemist asked.
"I'm paying you for the powder." Devorast replied.
[...]
Lies of Light, page 141:
When it was safe to open his eyes again, Surero looked at Devorast. The Cormyrean stood there nodding, watching as the dust and smoke cleared to reveal a crater several times the depth and diameter of the first.
"We need more," he said.
Surero chuckled, nodded and said, "I don't have a single grain of saltpeter left, and no one in Innarlith will sell it to me."
Devorast nodded, thinking, then said, "Phyrea's father harvests saltpeter at his country estate. I saw the lean-to when I worked there."
"That's interesting, but isn't Phyrea's father the master builder, and one of Rymüt's closest allies in the senate?" Devorast shrugged. "If Rymüt doesn't want to us to have it - doesn't want me to have it since he's mage enough to know what I'm going to use it for - he'll never sell it to us. I'm going to need a lot of it too. Three quarters of every sack is sulphur, a tenth is saltpeter and the rest charcoal. A young lady can't just hide it in her pockets and walk it out to us."
Now, I'm not saying that it is not canon that smokepowder is magical. I'm saying that there are two conflicting bits of canon (and this is not the first or the last instance of this happening, I'm sure), so I'm trying to reconcile them.
You may argue that it is impossible for the impersonal description (as opposed to one made by a fictional character) of smokepowder in various sources to be wrong, and so Surero and Devorast must clearly be the ones in fault. I argue that the substance Surero calls "smokepowder" is not exactly the same thing as the smokepowder described elsewhere (and it's not exactly "gunpowder" either), so neither statement needs to be wrong. I'll admit it's not a particularly elegant solution, but it seems as valid as any until WotC or Ed (or Philip Athans, I guess) say otherwise.
But all that is ignoring the "spirit" in which the statements were made. The ones in the OGB and the FRCS clearly intend for "gunpowder-like" substances to be either non-existent or magical in Toril, while Philip Athans' novel clearly intends that there exists a non-magical gunpowder-like substance in Toril. Arguments can be made for adhering to either vision. On the one side, the sourcebooks would have greater authority since they are supposed to be the main source of information about the Realms and are written by multiple people, including Ed himself in some occasions. On the other side, Philip Athans' novels are the most current word on the subject as far as I'm aware, and the quote from the DM's sourcebook of the Realms explicitly allows for an "opt-out" from the restriction by saying a gunpowder-like substance could be developed by player characters, so someone obviously wanted to keep the window open.
Personally, I don't think it's in line with the incredible diversity of the Realms to flat-out eliminate the possibility of a certain concept existing, by saying such and such can't absolutely happen, ever.
Lastly, I'm a bit of a newbie here, so I want to say I'm not trying to antagonize anyone, and give my apologies if I seem to. Also, I don't intend to monopolize this thread with the smokepowder discussion. I do like to discuss, though, and it's really a pleasure to be able to do so in such good company!  |
Never sleep under the jackfruit tree.
Tales of Moonsea - A Neverwinter Nights 2 Persistent World. Check out our website at http://www.talesofmoonsea.com and our video trailer at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=am304WqOAAo&feature=youtu.be, as well as our thread here at Candlekeep: http://www.forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=12955
My campaign thread: http://www.forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=16447 |
|
|
|
Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 02 Sep 2012 : 04:51:38
|
When canon conflicts, newer canon trumps older canon - thats the rule. You can not arbitrarily decide on what is canon based on your own preferences. There is no such thing as 'canon levels' - doesn't matter what the source, newer canon trumps older canon.
Given the fact that we have no old canon regarding the materials used to make Smokepowder, there really is no conflict. We have only one formula, so thats what it is.
|
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
|
Edited by - Markustay on 02 Sep 2012 04:52:51 |
|
|
|
sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12194 Posts |
Posted - 02 Sep 2012 : 05:31:00
|
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Also, as long as we're discussing it... cannons in the realms DON'T NEED TO BE USING SMOKEPOWDER OR GUNPOWDER. The original gray box had "cannons" of sorts.. that being the Thayan bombards. However, they were powered by a liquid explosion (aka, something akin to rocket fuel). Now, if someone were to say advance the technology to the point that something that gained accuracy at the cost of destructive capacity were achieved, I could see a liquid cannon of sorts being developed.... if that makes people feel better about including cannons in the realms.
"The Thayian bombards are mystical devices which fire a screaming blue death upon enemy ships. Each fortress has four of these cast-iron monsters, which have a minimum range of 120 yards and a maximum range of 480 yards. They fire huge hollow stone balls filled with fluid sold by the Wizards of Thay that, placed in the bombard, ignites and carries the flaming stone ball to its target, inflicting 5-30 points fire damage, 2-12 points hull damage, and setting all flammables stuck ablaze. These bombards are wonders of this age, but are hampered by their size (each is larger than a manor-house in Waterdeep), their required fluid (which the Thayians part with at a dear price), and a lack of accuracy, for while the bombard may fire once every two turns, it only has a 1 in 10 chance of hitting its target."
Just another thought on this piece that might make this a bit more palatable to people. Ok, gun/smoke powder is quick ignition, aim and fire. What if this liquid cannon is NOT quick ignition... essentially, what if you need to have two liquids combine in a certain combination, becoming volatile after a short length of time (or maybe a powder added to a liquid, or liquid added to a powder). This length of time doesn't need to be huge to make this kind of thing, but it may mean that this type of weapon is only usable against slow moving or non-moving targets (or large targets for which its not important where exactly you hit it). Thus, it might be that... as an example... you declare your action to fire and then 1 or 2 rounds later it goes off (literally, 1 or 2... indefinite fire rate, forcing the aimer to keep aiming if the target is moving). This makes transporting of the chemicals used to fire these cannons much less likely to prove a detriment to the army using them. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
|
|
|
combatmedic
Senior Scribe
USA
428 Posts |
Posted - 02 Sep 2012 : 16:12:39
|
Longbows (meaning relatively long self bows) did NOT render heavy armor obselete in the real world.
Five or six foot selfbows have been around for much longer than plate or mail armor.
|
YMMV= Your Mileage May Vary. I'm putting it here so I don't have to type it in every other post. :) |
|
|
|
combatmedic
Senior Scribe
USA
428 Posts |
Posted - 02 Sep 2012 : 17:09:49
|
RE technological innovations related to powder-
TSR introduced the matchlock arquebus to FR with FRA, which I found a bit strange. Fun, but strange. Where is the pot-de-fer, the hand-gonne? A leap of centuries from knowing how to make powder to making effective matchlock armaments, all in a year or a few months! (Maybe they already had slow match and the necessary metallurgy down pat—quite possible). Gond must really have liked his Lantanese priests, for it seems that he gave them not only the formula for gunpowder but the design of a relatively weapons. Thanks, Gond! You rock.
Cannon, even quite good bronze or cast iron field pieces and siege guns, are not going to eliminate castles overnight. FR has stonework castles despite having all that magic and all those flying monsters.
(Dungeon complexes may be a partial answer to flying attackers and some magic based threats).
The designers either weren't worried about rigorously working out the effects of magic and monsters in an escapist fantasy adventure setting, or else the magic level wasn't originally intended to be as high as it often appears in the game books. I think both those things are likely true.
Markus’ idea about economic collapse and the Spellplague—
I like it.
FR seems to have a cyclic history, in which major catastrophes strike down civilizations and leave behind ruins and legends. The Spellplague mashed Lantan among other areas, did it not? With the main center of manufacture, research and development for smoke powder and guns destroyed and the continental economy wrecked, guns could easily become another relic of the ‘world before.’ The knowledge of how to make powder wouldn’t simply vanish from Faerun, but Lantan’s ruin would be a major setback.
How long between the Time of Troubles and the Spellplague?
How much time was there for the technology to spread?
|
YMMV= Your Mileage May Vary. I'm putting it here so I don't have to type it in every other post. :) |
|
|
|
Tarlyn
Learned Scribe
USA
315 Posts |
Posted - 02 Sep 2012 : 17:12:54
|
| Leave smoke powder up to the group to decide. Maybe it is magical and maybe it is black powder, there doesn't need to be a cannon answer. I would imagine a lot of groups don't use firearms to begin with. |
Tarlyn Embersun |
|
|
|
combatmedic
Senior Scribe
USA
428 Posts |
Posted - 02 Sep 2012 : 17:24:47
|
quote:
Originally posted by Tarlyn
Leave smoke powder up to the group to decide. Maybe it is magical and maybe it is black powder, there doesn't need to be a cannon answer. I would imagine a lot of groups don't use firearms to begin with.
I agree that this is probably the best approach for Hasbro to take.
As you note, some people just don't use firearms in their games.
Or, they can give two answers , each marked 'Optional, ask your DM before making any assumptions.' In truth, that applies to ALL canon, but sometimes a special case is worth pointing out.
|
YMMV= Your Mileage May Vary. I'm putting it here so I don't have to type it in every other post. :) |
|
|
|
The Red Walker
Great Reader
USA
3567 Posts |
Posted - 02 Sep 2012 : 17:29:18
|
quote:
Originally posted by Tarlyn
Leave smoke powder up to the group to decide. Maybe it is magical and maybe it is black powder, there doesn't need to be a cannon answer. I would imagine a lot of groups don't use firearms to begin with.
In all seriousness, I don't know why the status quo isn't good enough. It's around, and you can use it in your game. Trying to stuff everyone's wish (ie, cthulu , spellscars, kewl stuff in general)list gave us 4e....the realms can. Ever be everything to everyone |
A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka
"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -
John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
|
|
|
|
Tarlyn
Learned Scribe
USA
315 Posts |
Posted - 02 Sep 2012 : 18:09:19
|
quote:
Originally posted by The Red Walker
In all seriousness, I don't know why the status quo isn't good enough. It's around, and you can use it in your game. Trying to stuff everyone's wish (ie, cthulu , spellscars, kewl stuff in general)list gave us 4e....the realms can. Ever be everything to everyone
I agree, but the designers don't explain what kind of acid is in those vials adventurers and kobolds throw at everything, no reason to state anything more about smoke powder than what it does mechanically. It wouldn't hurt to have a sidebar about smoke powder in the Realms, but with limited page count I would rather have those words spent on something else. Also, I have always been under the impression that it is relatively rare. |
Tarlyn Embersun |
|
|
|
Topic |
|
|
|
Likes/Dislikes of 4E Realms, Wish List for 5E
