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Eilserus
Master of Realmslore
USA
1446 Posts |
 Posted - 22 Aug 2012 : 16:20:33
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| Occasional stories or short stories set in the past would be nice. And I don't mean a specific timeline, just in the past. There's so many events in history a person could use that would be character focused like they want: Randal Morn's fight against the Zhentarim. Josidiah Starym's quest to reclaim the Warblade, Durnan and Mirt's adventures, Liriel Baenre's last 100 years, Azoun's tutelage and younger adventuring years under Vanderghast etc etc. |
Edited by - Eilserus on 22 Aug 2012 16:29:00 |
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The Red Walker
Great Reader
USA
3563 Posts |
Posted - 22 Aug 2012 : 16:36:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Eilserus
Occasional stories or short stories set in the past would be nice. And I don't mean a specific timeline, just in the past. There's so many events in history a person could use that would be character focused like they want: Randal Morn's fight against the Zhentarim. Josidiah Starym's quest to reclaim the Warblade, Durnan and Mirt's adventures, Liriel Baenre's last 100 years, Azoun's tutelage and younger adventuring years under Vanderghast etc etc.
I can remeber the story how RAS wanted to write Josidiah's story way back in the day and it wasnt "allowed" at that time. I cant help but think to myself, man Bob has to have thought about that a least a bit over all these years. Wonder what he could come up with now? I would have loved the story then, but it will probably be a much better tale now, if it's told. At least we got a glimpse in his short story Guenhwyvar.
http://www.wizards.com/books/downloads/guenhwyvar.pdf |
A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka
"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -
John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
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Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2449 Posts |
Posted - 22 Aug 2012 : 17:30:38
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| And there's an awful lot of things Ed's always wanted to tell (ie: Mirt and Durnan) that he's never been able to, because it happened in the "past." I think if WotC lightens up on that restriction a bit, they could make that happen. After all, if they're moving to a more small story, character driven approach (which I think is great; those RSE's sure got tiring), then does it matter in what era those stories are set? |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
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Hawkins
Great Reader
USA
2131 Posts |
Posted - 22 Aug 2012 : 19:19:41
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quote:
Originally posted by ElaineCunningham
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
I suspect we're mostly looking at digital versions of products, and there may be a print on demand model available for those who really want paper.
Having a POD option makes a lot of sense.
I am really hoping that more publishers will go this way, as long as the keep the actual cost of printing minimal. I really think that they need to look at what the cost of printing books is, and subtract that amount from the e-versions, and then offer to provide printed versions of your e-versions for the cost of printing them. (Did I phrase that in an overly convoluted manner? If so, I will try to rephrase it better later.) |
Errant d20 Designer - My Blog (last updated January 06, 2016)
One, two! One, two! And through and through
The vorpal blade went snicker-snack!
He left it dead, and with its head
He went galumphing back. --Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking-Glass
"Mmm, not the darkness," Myrin murmured. "Don't cast it there." --Erik Scott de Bie, Shadowbane
* My character sheets (PFRPG, 3.5, and AE versions; not viewable in Internet Explorer)
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My game design work:
* Heroes of the Jade Oath (PFRPG, conversion; Rite Publishing)
* Compendium Arcanum Volume 1: Cantrips & Orisons (PFRPG, designer; d20pfsrd.com Publishing)
* Compendium Arcanum Volume 2: 1st-Level Spells (PFRPG, designer; d20pfsrd.com Publishing)
* Martial Arts Guidebook (forthcoming) (PFRPG, designer; Rite Publishing)
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ElaineCunningham
Forgotten Realms Author
2396 Posts |
Posted - 22 Aug 2012 : 20:55:50
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quote:
Originally posted by The Red Walker
I can remeber the story how RAS wanted to write Josidiah's story way back in the day and it wasnt "allowed" at that time. I cant help but think to myself, man Bob has to have thought about that a least a bit over all these years. Wonder what he could come up with now? I would have loved the story then, but it will probably be a much better tale now, if it's told. At least we got a glimpse in his short story Guenhwyvar.
http://www.wizards.com/books/downloads/guenhwyvar.pdf
I don't think it was a matter of being "allowed." I'm not sure how far into the process Bob got, but I recall a conversation shortly after he learned that Josidiah's story had already been told in a game product.
http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Josidiah_Starym
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Edited by - ElaineCunningham on 22 Aug 2012 21:04:10 |
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ElaineCunningham
Forgotten Realms Author
2396 Posts |
Posted - 22 Aug 2012 : 21:44:51
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quote:
Originally posted by Hoondatha
And there's an awful lot of things Ed's always wanted to tell (ie: Mirt and Durnan) that he's never been able to, because it happened in the "past." I think if WotC lightens up on that restriction a bit, they could make that happen. After all, if they're moving to a more small story, character driven approach (which I think is great; those RSE's sure got tiring), then does it matter in what era those stories are set?
The Star Wars extended universe publishes novels set on many points of a long, long timeline, and the fans don't seem to be confused by this. |
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The Red Walker
Great Reader
USA
3563 Posts |
Posted - 22 Aug 2012 : 21:49:24
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quote:
Originally posted by ElaineCunningham
quote:
Originally posted by The Red Walker
I can remeber the story how RAS wanted to write Josidiah's story way back in the day and it wasnt "allowed" at that time. I cant help but think to myself, man Bob has to have thought about that a least a bit over all these years. Wonder what he could come up with now? I would have loved the story then, but it will probably be a much better tale now, if it's told. At least we got a glimpse in his short story Guenhwyvar.
http://www.wizards.com/books/downloads/guenhwyvar.pdf
I don't think it was a matter of being "allowed." I'm not sure how far into the process Bob got, but I recall a conversation shortly after he learned that Josidiah's story had already been told in a game product.
http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Josidiah_Starym
Thanks for sharing that. |
A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka
"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -
John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 22 Aug 2012 : 22:01:10
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quote:
Originally posted by ElaineCunningham
I don't think it was a matter of being "allowed." I'm not sure how far into the process Bob got, but I recall a conversation shortly after he learned that Josidiah's story had already been told in a game product.
I didn't hear it at the time, but much later. It sounds almost as if Bob was just so ticked about hearing that the games division had gone off and written tales about Josidiah vaguely parting ways with the blade, and also about Blingdenstone getting sacked and Krieger being the highest-ranking known survivor, that Bob considered it all moot, at that point.
But I hope he can be persuaded to reconsider, now. There's still lots of time in Josidiah's and Guen's life together that could be written about. And Silver Marches gave an addendum to the Blingdenstone debacle indicating that Belwar Dissengulp didn't die, so his tale has never been finished. |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
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Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2449 Posts |
Posted - 22 Aug 2012 : 23:26:40
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quote:
Originally posted by ElaineCunningham
quote:
Originally posted by Hoondatha
And there's an awful lot of things Ed's always wanted to tell (ie: Mirt and Durnan) that he's never been able to, because it happened in the "past." I think if WotC lightens up on that restriction a bit, they could make that happen. After all, if they're moving to a more small story, character driven approach (which I think is great; those RSE's sure got tiring), then does it matter in what era those stories are set?
The Star Wars extended universe publishes novels set on many points of a long, long timeline, and the fans don't seem to be confused by this.
Good point, Elaine. I stopped reading EU stuff years ago, when it was still "the next few years after RotJ," so it's not a comparison I would have thought of. But you're definitely right. |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
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ElaineCunningham
Forgotten Realms Author
2396 Posts |
Posted - 23 Aug 2012 : 00:41:07
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quote:
Originally posted by BEAST
quote:
Originally posted by ElaineCunningham
I don't think it was a matter of being "allowed." I'm not sure how far into the process Bob got, but I recall a conversation shortly after he learned that Josidiah's story had already been told in a game product.
I didn't hear it at the time, but much later. It sounds almost as if Bob was just so ticked about hearing that the games division had gone off and written tales about Josidiah vaguely parting ways with the blade, and also about Blingdenstone getting sacked and Krieger being the highest-ranking known survivor, that Bob considered it all moot, at that point.
But I hope he can be persuaded to reconsider, now. There's still lots of time in Josidiah's and Guen's life together that could be written about. And Silver Marches gave an addendum to the Blingdenstone debacle indicating that Belwar Dissengulp didn't die, so his tale has never been finished.
Beast, I'm not inclined to speculate about Bob's reactions, motivations and conclusions. The internet being what it is, what one person presents as speculation, someone else repeats as fact, and that's really not fair to him.
As for the Josidiah story, did you follow that link? There's a LOT of detail about Josidiah, and not much of it came from Bob's short story. Sure, stories could be written to fill in the gaps, but the broad strokes of the elf's life and death have already been established.
I can only speak from my own perspective, so here's how the view looks from where I stand. Let's say I started plotting out a Liriel novel and learned that one of the game products had her fall in love with a gold elf, a love affair that ended when she was turned into a vampire. Pursued by her former lover, she killed her two sword-sisters, traveled to Kara Tur on a slim chance of gaining redemption and renewed mortality, and succeeded at her quest only to die at the hands of the gold elf, who learned of his mistake too late.
Yeah, I know. Cheesy with a side of parmesan. But let's say that this curriculum vitae, or some variation, existed. I could write a story that filled in the blanks and/or painted by numbers, but it wouldn't be the same and frankly, it wouldn't be much fun. |
Edited by - ElaineCunningham on 23 Aug 2012 18:07:36 |
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Aulduron
Learned Scribe
USA
343 Posts |
Posted - 23 Aug 2012 : 18:24:02
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It must be hard to write in a shared world. It doesn't sound like you have a lot of "rights" over your characters, especially if that character is royalty or some other mover or shaker. I assume that's why you don't seem to care about writing more about Lireal, for instance. With her family and hometown pretty much being another authors babies, that probably limits your creativity.
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"Those with talent become wizards, Those without talent spend their lives praying for it"
-Procopio Septus |
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ElaineCunningham
Forgotten Realms Author
2396 Posts |
Posted - 23 Aug 2012 : 18:56:48
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quote:
Originally posted by Aulduron
It must be hard to write in a shared world. It doesn't sound like you have a lot of "rights" over your characters, especially if that character is royalty or some other mover or shaker. I assume that's why you don't seem to care about writing more about Lireal, for instance. With her family and hometown pretty much being another authors babies, that probably limits your creativity.
Logical assumption, but wrong. 
When Windwalker came out, my editor was very clear that this was not only the final book in the Starlight & Shadows trilogy, but also the conclusion of Liriel's story. That stance softened somewhat when I was writing a new story ("The Knights of Samular") for the Best of the Realms Book III collection and suggested throwing in an extra story that gave readers a glimpse into Liriel's current life. The editor--who if memory serves was the same editor--liked the idea, and the result was "Answered Prayers."
Editors have come and gone since then, and I have no idea what the current view toward continuing Liriel's story might be. It's not something I've discussed with anyone at WotC.
You're quite right about her family and hometown being "another author's babies," but there are ways to work with that. Shortly after Brian Thomsen approached me with the idea of creating a young drow female character, I talked to Bob Salvatore about the story to make sure I didn't do something that would conflict with his future plans. We also discusses Liriel's position, which according to Brian was supposed to be someone of high social status, but no real power. The real-life example he gave was Prince Andrew of England, who as Prince Charles's brother is fourth in line to the throne. He'll never be king, and his actions are unlikely to have much effect on the political situation, but as a member of the royal family he DOES have the potential to create difficult or embarrassing situations. I repeated this to Bob, who immediately said, "Make her Gromph's daughter." This was a perfect solution. As the daughter of a male, she has no real status in House Baenre, but because Gromph is so powerful, she sort of falls between the societal cracks and had an unusual amount of freedom.
Another thing that helps is the fact that Liriel left Menzoberranzan and has no plans to return. What happens to her family and her home town is no longer part of her story.
So I don't feel constrained by the setting, and it's not that I don't care about continuing Liriel's tale. From time to time I think wistfully about the idea of writing stories about a kick-ass elven sisterhood. There are lots of "buddy books" in fantasy, but so few sword-and-sorcery novels that have female partners. But years ago, I accepted that her story was finished. Once you adopt a certain mindset, it tends to persist until something shakes it loose, and that hasn't happened. |
Edited by - ElaineCunningham on 23 Aug 2012 18:58:50 |
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 23 Aug 2012 : 20:42:04
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quote:
Originally posted by ElaineCunningham
Beast, I'm not inclined to speculate about Bob's reactions, motivations and conclusions. The internet being what it is, what one person presents as speculation, someone else repeats as fact, and that's really not fair to him.
Understood. I try to avoid the temptation of idle speculation for that reason.
(And if you ever catch me stepping on your toes, please feel perfectly free to smack me up side the head. Don't be subtle about it, either. I'm hard-headed like that. It usually takes a pretty good whack!)
This is a special case in which he has spoken and written of the past surprise news to him that someone else had developed Josidiah's character further, and he got the impression that it was all settled and done. The way he expresses it, that's exactly how it is, for him.
Methinks that impression could've been avoided if there had been just a little more coordination at the time, like what you mentioned between you and him regarding Liriel. He might've been able to see that there is still a lot of room in the timeline to write more tales of Josidiah and Guenhwyvar.
quote:
As for the Josidiah story, did you follow that link? There's a LOT of detail about Josidiah, and not much of it came from Bob's short story. Sure, stories could be written to fill in the gaps, but the broad strokes of the elf's life and death have already been established.
Yep, sure did follow that link. I remember reading the highlights of that article before right here at the 'Keep.
253 DR - Josidiah receives the Guen figurine and they become friends/partners.
500 DR - Josidiah embarks on his quest to find the Warblade.
674 DR - Josidiah returns to Myth Drannor with the Artblade, and without Guenhwyvar.
So by my math, that leaves a nearly 250-year gap of time in which completely original Josidiah-&-Guen tales could be spun, plus another 175 years of tales about Josidiah & Guen while questing for the Warblade. With Bob's infamous reputation for moving his stories along much more slowly than the general advance of the Realms timeline at large, it seems like he would have plenty of time to work with and have fun with, there.
I guess the only kicker is that he may have wanted to pen a tale of Josidiah dying with Guen, and bequeathing her to an ally or relative or something. Now, that option was clearly taken off the table, so I can see why he would feel disappointed, there.
Other than that, though, it seems like there's plenty of time to work with to write multiple tales of adventures with the two.
quote:
I can only speak from my own perspective, so here's how the view looks from where I stand. Let's say I started plotting out a Liriel novel and learned that one of the game products had her fall in love with a gold elf, a love affair that ended when she was turned into a vampire. Pursued by her former lover, she killed her two sword-sisters, traveled to Kara Tur on a slim chance of gaining redemption and renewed mortality, and succeeded at her quest only to die at the hands of the gold elf, who learned of his mistake too late.
Yeah, I know. Cheesy with a side of parmesan. But let's say that this curriculum vitae, or some variation, existed. I could write a story that filled in the blanks and/or painted by numbers, but it wouldn't be the same and frankly, it wouldn't be much fun.
What if you had a quarter-millenium to work with before she even met said gold elf? Would what comes after really be that much of a drag?
Again, I can see it being a problem if you were intending to pen the tale of her demise, all along.
Otherwise, not so much. You should feel free to do whatever you want with her (and the editors sign off on) during the time gap.
(I know, I know: you couldn't possibly have that big of a time gap with Liriel, since she's so young. Josidiah's got a lot more missing time in his personal history than she.) |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
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Aulduron
Learned Scribe
USA
343 Posts |
Posted - 23 Aug 2012 : 23:07:17
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| I'm glad I was wrong. |
"Those with talent become wizards, Those without talent spend their lives praying for it"
-Procopio Septus |
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ElaineCunningham
Forgotten Realms Author
2396 Posts |
Posted - 24 Aug 2012 : 01:50:25
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quote:
Originally posted by BEAST
What if you had a quarter-millenium to work with before she even met said gold elf? Would what comes after really be that much of a drag?
Yes.
Stories have direction. Events have antecedents. When significant milestones in a character's life are mapped out, they shape the sort of stories that can be told about the years BEFORE those events.
Sure, writers COULD fill in the blanks. There are many reasons why they might not want to, but sometimes the reason writers don't write the stories you think they should boils down to something very simple: They're busy writing OTHER stories.
It has occurred to me that sometimes deciding what story to write is a lot like choosing a beauty queen from among a large group of gorgeous contestants. There's nothing WRONG with any of them. A case could be made for any one of them. Same could be said of all those story ideas that could be developed into novels. |
Edited by - ElaineCunningham on 24 Aug 2012 04:13:44 |
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The Red Walker
Great Reader
USA
3563 Posts |
Posted - 24 Aug 2012 : 04:08:31
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quote:
Originally posted by ElaineCunningham
quote:
Originally posted by BEAST
What if you had a quarter-millenium to work with before she even met said gold elf? Would what comes after really be that much of a drag?
Yes.
Stories have direction. Events have antecedents. When significant milestones in a character's life are mapped out, they shape the sort of stories that can be told about the years BEFORE those events.
Of course a writer COULD fill in the blanks. But your average writer has enough ideas and characters rattling around in the backbrain to fill several writing lifetimes. Sometimes the reason writers don't write the stories you think they should write boils down to something very simple: They're busy writing OTHER stories.
Why do writers chose one story over another? The list of reasons is infinite. A great idea hits you and won't leave you alone until you write it. An opportunity arises that's too good to turn down. Maybe you like three story ideas about the same, and choice boils down to what your publishers want to print, and when. Deadlines are great decision-makers.
So when we start talking about what someone could/should write, we're never talking about JUST THAT ONE STORY.
It has occurred to me that sometimes deciding what story to write is a lot like choosing a beauty queen from among a large group of gorgeous contestants. There's nothing WRONG with any of them. A case could be made for any one of them. Same could be said of any one of the great story ideas that could be developed into novels.
::shrugs:: Another perspective, and probably not terribly helpful to anyone who wants a particular story.
As always your perspective sheds new light on a subject.......
So are you sayin' we won't see a new story from you aout your newest characters.....
Stanilo Phann and Carolyn Moonbeam? |
A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka
"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -
John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
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Edited by - The Red Walker on 24 Aug 2012 04:24:43 |
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Xnella Moonblade-Thann
Learned Scribe
USA
234 Posts |
Posted - 24 Aug 2012 : 04:40:38
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quote:
Originally posted by The Red Walker
So are you sayin' we won't see a new story from you aout your newest characters.....
Stanilo Phann and Carolyn Moonbeam?
Sorry, those names sound completely ridiculous in my mind. |
"Sweet water and light laughter until next we meet." - traditional elven farewell
Please forgive any spelling and grammer errors, as my android touch-screen phone has no spellchecker. If I do make a grammer mistake, please let me know and I'll try to fix it.
New laptop, still trying to sort my "scrolls" on its shelves...and when will this cursed thing stop doing things I tell it not to? |
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 24 Aug 2012 : 05:15:44
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quote:
Originally posted by ElaineCunningham
Stories have direction. Events have antecedents. When significant milestones in a character's life are mapped out, they shape the sort of stories that can be told about the years BEFORE those events.
I suppose that in some instances, that might be true. It depends on the specific milestones, and the specific alternative direction an author might have had in mind. I don't have a clue what specific things Bob had in mind for Josidiah, so I can't fathom why the specific mapped-out milestones seemed like such a big stumbling block to him.
At any rate, it sounds like you and he very much see eye to eye on this sort of thing.
But as a reader of his stories, I've had to pick up the ability to rationalize and retcon and liberally apply revisionist history to his own tales, as he changes various details over time. To be a RAS fan is to be a flexible reader, and not one who is intransigent with his/her interpretation of events as first described.
Over on his board, this week there was a bit of a flap about the scene in The Silent Blade in which Drizzt and Entreri duel, and a Kimmuriel enchantment allows Entreri to viciously injure Drizzt, with a bleeding, very-still Drizzt being dragged away and magically healed back to health. Well, in the novel Neverwinter, one passage says that Entreri had actually killed Drizzt during that fight. So the questions then became: If he was healed, then how could he have died? And if he died, then how could he be healed--wouldn't he have been resurrected, instead? Once again, I resorted to creative reinterpretation of the two sources so as bring them into a type of agreement with each other. Some of the board members like that; but others are sticking to their guns and prefer the original reading which figured Drizzt as merely being gravely injured.
My point is that we readers have to mix and match bits of lore from the books and try to fit them together into a would-be coherent picture, all the time. Why is that such an abhorrent notion to some of y'all, as writers? "Shared world" and everything.
quote:
Sure, writers COULD fill in the blanks. There are many reasons why they might not want to, but sometimes the reason writers don't write the stories you think they should boils down to something very simple: They're busy writing OTHER stories.
It has occurred to me that sometimes deciding what story to write is a lot like choosing a beauty queen from among a large group of gorgeous contestants. There's nothing WRONG with any of them. A case could be made for any one of them. Same could be said of all those story ideas that could be developed into novels.
Now, this much, I wholeheartedly agree with you on. I don't fault Bob for not going back and writing tales on likeable old characters (like Josidiah and Belwar). Of course I would really enjoy it if he did, at some point. But that's the call of several people who are not I. If other stuff beckons Bob or you more loudly than the desired rehashes of old news from us fans, then that's certainly your prerogative.
Nevertheless, again, on his boards, there are peeps who greatly resent it when we don't receive detailed book-length lore on subjects that they're interested in. The subject of who is the greatest fighter in the Realms was brought up, and some hardcore Drizzt fans predictably want to see him at the top of the list. But one board member quoted a post from Ed, here, that rattled off about a dozen different fighters, and Drizzt was featured only around the middle of that list. This then led the uber-fans to cry foul, since we have no specific lore about those placed higher in the list. This then gave rise to my lecturing them on: 1) how what Ed says about Realmslore can be taken as Gospel at face value, until superceded by later lore; and 2) how we are not entitled to detailed lengthy books on every story that we want to read.
I get it that we fans can't rightly dictate to you writers what to write. You've got to be true to your own inner inspiration and vision.
I just wonder why, if you've felt interested in pursuing a certain storyline, you might let other established Realmslore get you down and discourage you from continuing with that interesting project. We loyal fans don't let that sort of thing stop us in our tracks. We just creatively reinterpret things so they make sense to us, and then keep driving forward.
Like I said, it must just come down to the specific nitty-gritty details, which we regular folks are not privvy to. I'm OK with that. Corporations can have NDAs. And writers can have creative differences which lead them to shelve some projects. |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
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ElaineCunningham
Forgotten Realms Author
2396 Posts |
Posted - 24 Aug 2012 : 13:04:58
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quote:
Originally posted by BEAST
My point is that we readers have to mix and match bits of lore from the books and try to fit them together into a would-be coherent picture, all the time. Why is that such an abhorrent notion to some of y'all, as writers? "Shared world" and everything.
As I have mentioned many times, flexibility is a necessary part of shared-world writing. I started writing Realms stories in 1990, during the Avatar saga and the switch 2nd Ed, and I kept at it through 3E and 3.5. Along the way there were significant rules changes, lots of shifts in editorial direction, and many, many adjustments, large and small, to accommodate what other writers and game designers were doing. When you write in a shared world, this is part of the package. All things considered, I find a certain wry amusement in your use of the word "abhorrent" and the implication of inflexibility.
But no matter how flexible a writer is, no matter how much of a team player he or she is determined to be, sometimes changes happen that create a logical end for a story. For example, in 4th edition most of Halruaa disappeared into the sea. Matteo and Tzigone were characters deeply rooted in a certain time and place. I could, I suppose, have them move to Waterdeep before the destruction, or have them magically transform into merfolk and give them an undersea tale, but there comes a point where continuing a story is no longer...continuing a story. It's writing a whole new one. And if that story really isn't your story to write, it makes sense to move on to one that is. |
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ElaineCunningham
Forgotten Realms Author
2396 Posts |
Posted - 24 Aug 2012 : 13:49:57
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quote:
Originally posted by BEAST
This is a special case in which he has spoken and written of the past surprise news to him that someone else had developed Josidiah's character further, and he got the impression that it was all settled and done. The way he expresses it, that's exactly how it is, for him.
Methinks that impression could've been avoided if there had been just a little more coordination at the time, like what you mentioned between you and him regarding Liriel. He might've been able to see that there is still a lot of room in the timeline to write more tales of Josidiah and Guenhwyvar.
"Just a little more coordination" would have been an excellent plan.
You're putting all the should-haves on Bob here, but if we're going to indulge in what-ifs, let's suppose the game designers had sent a quick email along these lines: "Hi, Bob! We're thinking of including a history of Josidiah Starym. Do you have any thoughts about the direction his life might have taken, or for that matter, do you plan to write more about him and prefer that we steer clear?"
The "sharing" in shared-world writing takes many forms. Sharing information BEFORE a product is published is a big part of the picture.
But this is all water long, LONG under the bridge. Frankly, I'm more interested in what comes next than what SHOULD have come before. Mistakes and misunderstandings occur. This one is settled and done.
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Edited by - ElaineCunningham on 24 Aug 2012 14:14:46 |
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 24 Aug 2012 : 22:46:10
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quote:
Originally posted by ElaineCunningham
You're putting all the should-haves on Bob here, but if we're going to indulge in what-ifs, let's suppose the game designers had sent a quick email along these lines: "Hi, Bob! We're thinking of including a history of Josidiah Starym. Do you have any thoughts about the direction his life might have taken, or for that matter, do you plan to write more about him and prefer that we steer clear?"
Oh, I hear ya loud and clear on that. I have a list of instances in which the games division went off on some tangents with his characters, and not necessarily for the better.
(And I keep hearing that the rules-mongering gamers have a similar list of all the ways in which his fiction has gone off on tangents away from their rules, too!   )
I was stoked when Brian asked me to help on the Menzo book, in order to try to avoid anything even remotely resembling that sort of thing.
quote:
But this is all water long, LONG under the bridge. Frankly, I'm more interested in what comes next than what SHOULD have come before. Mistakes and misunderstandings occur. This one is settled and done.
That's the impression that Bob gives, too.
As a fan, I say, "Darn!"
But as a human being, I say, "I can certainly respect that."
quote:
Originally posted by ElaineCunningham
All things considered, I find a certain wry amusement in your use of the word "abhorrent" and the implication of inflexibility.
I in no way meant to undermine your considerable efforts to juggle all the bits of lore from all over, for all these years.
I was only characterizing your reaction to the hypothetical lore of Liriel and a gold elf, and Bob's reaction to news of the actual lore about Josidiah leaving Myth Drannor to go a-questing and eventually returning without Guenhwyvar. With these specific examples, you guys seem to have dug your heels in a bit more than usual, that's all.
These weren't just specific examples--they were also extremely special to each of you, which is why they inspired extraordinary responses, I guess. |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
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ElaineCunningham
Forgotten Realms Author
2396 Posts |
Posted - 25 Aug 2012 : 01:53:56
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quote:
Originally posted by BEAST
And I keep hearing that the rules-mongering gamers have a similar list of all the ways in which his fiction has gone off on tangents away from their rules, too!
Yep, novelists have been known to create continuity glitches, too. I've been taken to task for my variations on the spelling of "Craulnober," and my persistant refusal to get excited about the Lolth/Lloth debate. |
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 26 Aug 2012 : 04:48:49
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In his recent youtube @google appearance, Bob discusses writing in the shared world environment.
At the 18:08 marker, he starts off by saying that his initial approach was just to avoid everybody and everywhere else--in his words, "hiding".
He says that WOTC's book division originally told him he could kill off Obould, but once he turned in his manuscript to The Thousand Orcs, they said the 3E FRCS trumped that, so he couldn't kill him, after all.
I cannot tell you how much I hated to hear that! Obould shoulda died, 10 times over! ARGH!!! 
But it does sorta confirm a personal suspicion I've had for years. 
Anyway, I think the key line comes at the 18:55 marker:
quote:
And this always happens, because you've all these hands in this giant pot, y'know. And with Neverwinter, I was--I'm always happy to do that. I'm always happy to play with others in this sandbox, as long as it's not gonna hinder what I wanted to do. And there's a rea--I have a reason for writing all of these books: There's something I want to explore.
He focuses on the positive: when it all works. But in that passage, I think he was touching on those times when it doesn't. It's a bummer when other people's lore pops up seemingly out of nowhere and interferes with your plans.
As a fan, on the outside looking in, it feels like a writer would just want to fill in as many blanks in the lore as possible, whenever given the chance. That's where I come from on the Josidiah issue.
But when you're an actual writer, I guess you're so invested in those characters, that a big obstacle like newfound alternative lore can really pack a wallop, and just make you want to write something else.
Anyhoo, just to end on a positive note, at the 20:11 marker:
quote:
And that's what--that was the story of "The Neverwinter Saga". And then they just said, "So, for the icing on the cake, can you blow up a city?" Yep. "Can you add some characters to the city?" Yep, I can do that. And . . . when it works like that, it's awesome; shared world is awesome, 'cause you're standing on the shoulders of giants.
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"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
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Swordsage
Learned Scribe
149 Posts |
Posted - 27 Aug 2012 : 03:26:35
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quote:
Originally posted by BEAST
Anyway, I think the key line comes at the 18:55 marker:
quote:
And this always happens, because you've all these hands in this giant pot, y'know. And with Neverwinter, I was--I'm always happy to do that. I'm always happy to play with others in this sandbox, as long as it's not gonna hinder what I wanted to do. And there's a rea--I have a reason for writing all of these books: There's something I want to explore.
He focuses on the positive: when it all works. But in that passage, I think he was touching on those times when it doesn't. It's a bummer when other people's lore pops up seemingly out of nowhere and interferes with your plans.
As a fan, on the outside looking in, it feels like a writer would just want to fill in as many blanks in the lore as possible, whenever given the chance. That's where I come from on the Josidiah issue.
But when you're an actual writer, I guess you're so invested in those characters, that a big obstacle like newfound alternative lore can really pack a wallop, and just make you want to write something else.
Lurker mode off.
I have the greatest respect for RA Salvatore as a writer of entertaining prose, but I don't agree with his take on shared world writing as exemplified by:
I'm always happy to do that. I'm always happy to play with others in this sandbox, as long as it's not gonna hinder what I wanted to do. And there's a rea--I have a reason for writing all of these books: There's something I want to explore.
What's he's saying is he's only prepared to "play with others" as long as those others are subordinated to his own writing goals and interests. There have been more than a few times where stuff that Salvatore has "wanted to do" has caused realmslore headaches. In a shared world you have to be a team player. That "something I want to explore" has to respect the writers who have come before you, both on the game side and the fiction side. Salvatore can't take umbrage over the fact that others have done things in the Realms with Josidiah Starym and then play fast and loose with most of the extant Gauntlgrym lore such that Ed had to do his usual, soft-show shuffle and proclaim, "Bob's Gauntlgrym is actually the one that existed "before" the Gauntlgrym described in all of the sources dating back to the early 1990s. You know, the city that was built for humans by the dwarves of Delzoun. His is the dwarven city of Gauntlgrym that no-one had ever heard of in 25 years of Realms writing."
There was nothing wrong with Gauntlgrym as it had previously been portrayed in the lore. And there was nothing about Salvatore's story that needed him to ignore that lore. But then again, I'm assuming he actually did his research to be in a position to ignore it. If he didn't do his research ... phew, well, that's a conversation killer.
I'm so over authors/game designers who are so enamoured of their "great idea" that they contort the setting to wedge it in sideways, take their paycheck and leave the people who stay on in the world to play clean-up. The return of "Deathstar" Denning to the 5E Realms can only give me pause in that regard. Writing in a vacuum, and calling it "shared world writing", when all you do is adopt a few people and place names surely must be a sweet gig.
I've always thought that writing in the Realms is about respect and inclusivity. Eric Boyd's Sundering thread/post touched on that aspect of Realms writing. If an author or game designer can't manage to get his/her "great idea" to fit the existing lore, guess what? It might have been a great idea, it just wasn't a great idea for the Realms. If despite all that you're fixated on that "great idea", go back over the mountain range and write about a place that no-one has ever heard of. It's much safer that way.
The Swordsage
Lurker mode on. |
Edited by - Swordsage on 27 Aug 2012 03:30:50 |
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 27 Aug 2012 : 06:30:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Swordsage
I have the greatest respect for RA Salvatore as a writer of entertaining prose, but I don't agree with his take on shared world writing as exemplified by [...].
That's completely understandable.
Earlier, I was advocating to Elaine the perspective that it seems that a shared-world writer would eagerly, rabidly want to fill in the blanks, even when new lore comes up that the writer doesn't particularly like. The idea would be that sharing is an honor and a privilege, and a shared-world writer would just roll with the punches, but keep driving forward with those cherished storylines.
It's interesting that he did so with Gauntlgrym, but not with Josidiah. I wonder why that was.
quote:
I'm so over authors/game designers who are so enamoured of their "great idea" that they contort the setting to wedge it in sideways, take their paycheck and leave the people who stay on in the world to play clean-up. [...] Writing in a vacuum, and calling it "shared world writing", when all you do is adopt a few people and place names surely must be a sweet gig.
I'm not sure how much of a vacuum it is with Bob, with the editors and design teams that he still has to interact with on every project. It is very noteworthy that so many . . . discrepancies . . . continue to pop up in his tales, even with said interacting parties. But your characterization still comes off as one-sided. Doesn't someone need to correct those discrepancies--rather than just cry foul after they're already published? That not enough people are doing that--no, I don't consider that a sweet gig.
quote:
I've always thought that writing in the Realms is about respect and inclusivity.
I'm not really sure. Erik Scott de Bie started another scroll here recently that asked scribes what they thought that the Realms mean, and there were a variety of answers.
Personally, the Realms are characterized by the quantity and range of stories making any single tale feel quite small and isolated, as opposed to feeling inclusive and interconnected. I contrast the Realms against Middle-Earth, which for me feels a little contrived because so many of its various storylines are all so confoundedly interconnected. Methinks the Forgotten Realms may actually have been originally forgotten, in part, because so much of them were not substantially interconnected, but rather, strewn so widely across Ed's canvas that many observers never did successfully connect the dots, and so, those dots eventually became lost.
But then, I'm an unabashed RAS fan, and his "writing in a vacuum" might color my view inordinately.
quote:
If an author or game designer can't manage to get his/her "great idea" to fit the existing lore, guess what? It might have been a great idea, it just wasn't a great idea for the Realms.
He actually enacted your advice, by shelving his envisioned tale(s) of Josidiah and Guenhwyvar.
But he didn't have to like it, though.
Nor do we fans, still hungry for some such tales.
quote:
If despite all that you're fixated on that "great idea", go back over the mountain range and write about a place that no-one has ever heard of. It's much safer that way.
And he did exactly that, as well, with his odd town of Baffenburg, in The Orc King, which some of the Companions visited on a side adventure, mistaking it for the dwarven city of Gauntlgrym.
It's my understanding that he only actually went to Gauntlgrym after all the interacting parties at WOTC finally found (or pulled out) a way to make it jibe with the older lore. Sure, he had been expressing a desire to do it since The Thousand Orcs (2002), but didn't actually do it until the novel Gauntlgrym (2010). Up until then, it was just a glimmer in Bruenor's eye, subject to an old dwarf's fallible senses of memory and mythicization.
Are you saying that he was wrong to wait it out, and convince the interacting parties to make it fit? Was that wrong?
quote:
There was nothing wrong with Gauntlgrym as it had previously been portrayed in the lore. And there was nothing about Salvatore's story that needed him to ignore that lore.
That sure makes it sound like it. You sound perturbed that he successfully got others to make his Gauntlgrym idea fit.
But what about shared world and inclusiveness and interactivity? Are Bob Salvatore's pet ideas, somehow, to be excluded from all that?
So he's wrong when his stories don't jibe, and he's also wrong when his stories do jibe? How's that?  
quote:
What's he's saying is he's only prepared to "play with others" as long as those others are subordinated to his own writing goals and interests.
I never heard him say he wasn't prepared to play with others unless they were subordinated to his goals. He said he's always happy when they interact with him to meet his goals. And I don't think there's anything nefarious or selfish in that. Wouldn't anyone be happy when his colleagues cooperated with him to meet his goals? I sure would!
What he seems to be implying, indirectly, is that when other team members don't cooperate with him to meet his goals, perhaps he isn't happy in those cases. Well duh! I wouldn't be, either. Most people wouldn't be. If your goals aren't being met, for whatever reason, you're probably not gonna be too happy.
And that doesn't make him the boogey man, either. It just makes him a normal human being.
That said, when Josidiah's tale was updated with new lore beatpoints, and when Blingdenstone was sacked, and when Gauntlgrym Gauntulgrym was reiterated to be a human city that was only built by dwarves and not an actual dwarven uber-city, Bob didn't cease to play with others. He continued writing Realms novels, short stories, comic books, and video game stories throughout the 2000s (as well as non-Realms stories in his separate "DemonWars" world of Corona). He agreed to keep King Obould alive so that the Kingdom of Many-Arrows could arise and stick around per the FRCS (3E), in "The Hunter's Blade Trilogy" and The Orc King. He added onto the Bloodstone Lands/Zhengyi/Gareth lore in "The Sellswords". He killed off most of his characters and wrote a Spellplague tale in The Ghost King. He went along with the 100-year time jump, and blew up Neverwinter as per a cross-platform (video game to fiction) request, in Gauntlgrym. And allegedly he helped set the stage for the upcoming "Rise of the Drow" meta-campaign with his most recent book Charon's Claw. So I'm not really sure how you're misconstruing his actions or attitude as somehow being unprepared to work with others, unless they help meet his goals.
When his goals weren't met with Josidiah and Blingdenstone, he dropped those projects. He didn't drop the Realms, or the team.
EDIT: Changed Eric to Erik. I keep doing that! |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
Edited by - BEAST on 27 Aug 2012 06:39:52 |
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ElaineCunningham
Forgotten Realms Author
2396 Posts |
Posted - 27 Aug 2012 : 15:09:35
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quote:
What's he's saying is he's only prepared to "play with others" as long as those others are subordinated to his own writing goals and interests.
Swordsage, this is NOT how I would interpret Bob's comments. I can see how some people might, taking the words at face value and out of context, but I've observed over and over his willingness to adapt, to play as part of a team, to go above and beyond.
Collaborative creative projects can be a lot of fun. I understand what Bob means about the magic and excitement of ideas that build upon each other. I also understand that sometimes proposed changes can stop you dead. If you were planning to write a book set in, say, Halruaa or parts of Chult, the destruction of those lands in the Spellplague will put an end to "things you'd like to explore." If you're discussing the direction of the Realms and you have a chance to give your opinion, you're going to be an advocate for Chult's continued existance.
Bob's comment was made in the context of a planning discussion. To paraphrase: "Happy to do this, guys, and this and this and this. But that other thing? That's going to derail this upcoming story, and here's why..." There's a big difference between giving an opinion and an ultimatum. There's a big difference between not loving a particular direction decision and refusing to play unless other people play by your rules. I don't recall ever seeing him step over those lines.
Now, on to your Troy Denning comment. Many of the large, "catastrophic" events are conceived in-house, not in the minds of individual writers. Troy Denning is called upon to write big events because he's good at managing battles that need to be described on a wide scale and big screen. When you've got an event called "The Sundering," you're going to need writers who can write stories with a big scope and cast.
Nothing is published in the Realms unless the fiction editors, creative directors, and other in-house Realms experts sign off on it. Continuity glitches and lore discrepancies will still occur, because people are only human and the lore is vast and varied, but no one person can just saunter in, smash continuity like a drunken cowboy in a saloon, and ride off into the sunset. |
Edited by - ElaineCunningham on 27 Aug 2012 15:31:06 |
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 27 Aug 2012 : 18:12:05
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Elaine,
Would these "director's cuts" open the door to authors writing alternative histories, or alternative-history addenda to re-released works? If so, writers could share what they would've wanted to have happened if those official beatpoints of lore had never arisen.
Some long-running TV shows have episodes like that, which are wonderful detours from the main storyline. Or maybe we could think of them like alternate endings on DVD movies. They're not too confusing for the loyal fans, and I bet they're loads of fun for the writers. |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
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ElaineCunningham
Forgotten Realms Author
2396 Posts |
Posted - 27 Aug 2012 : 19:25:42
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quote:
Originally posted by BEAST
Elaine,
Would these "director's cuts" open the door to authors writing alternative histories, or alternative-history addenda to re-released works? If so, writers could share what they would've wanted to have happened if those official beatpoints of lore had never arisen.
Some long-running TV shows have episodes like that, which are wonderful detours from the main storyline. Or maybe we could think of them like alternate endings on DVD movies. They're not too confusing for the loyal fans, and I bet they're loads of fun for the writers.
Interesting question, Beast, but not one I'm in a position to answer. I have no idea if WotC is considering Director's Cuts, and if so, what they might include.
It's an intriguing idea, but imo it's probably not the best path for a shared world to take.
I agree that most fans wouldn't be very confused by such things, but the alternate info won't STAY in the director's cut context. It would find its way into the far corners of cyberspace and cause all manner of continuity arguments.
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 27 Aug 2012 : 23:59:42
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quote:
Originally posted by ElaineCunningham
I agree that most fans wouldn't be very confused by such things, but the alternate info won't STAY in the director's cut context. It would find its way into the far corners of cyberspace and cause all manner of continuity arguments.
Haha. Yep.
"But Elaine said . . ." |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
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ElaineCunningham
Forgotten Realms Author
2396 Posts |
Posted - 29 Aug 2012 : 14:31:45
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quote:
Originally posted by BEAST
quote:
Originally posted by ElaineCunningham
I agree that most fans wouldn't be very confused by such things, but the alternate info won't STAY in the director's cut context. It would find its way into the far corners of cyberspace and cause all manner of continuity arguments.
Haha. Yep.
"But Elaine said . . ."
Heh. I just thought of this thread in the context of a satirical article in The Onion, in which Todd Akins was "quoted" as saying breast milk is 94% effective in curing gays. (But lesbians, obviously, need to drink something else...) In context, it's obviously a satire. But after it's passed along a time or two, people refer to it in facebook posts as, "OMG can you believe what this moron said now?"
My point--and I do have one--is not to start a political discussion, but to emphasize that anything on the internet will eventually be misread and quoted out of context. |
Edited by - ElaineCunningham on 29 Aug 2012 14:33:52 |
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Directors cut
