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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3813 Posts |
 Posted - 13 Aug 2012 : 09:13:28
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| Talking about rules: maybe, as someone suggested on the WotC boards, the Sundering will happen between game rules and Realmslore, rather than between eras/timelines or whatever. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 13 Aug 2012 : 09:41:49
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My own take is that they are going to take it further then that, but I really have no idea.
If they go for a more modular approach - keeping the game, setting IPs, and minis all under separate labels - then the Sundering could mean time, settings, editions, etc. they've mentioned a few times the "use what you like, ignore the rest" approach to this edition, so that is why I have this feeling the Sundering will be about setting and rules as well, but taken to an extreme. The 'support for multiple eras' thing might even be rolled into the sundering (although I would think that was contrary to that, but I have thought of a few ways they could make that work).
Just a few more days and we'll know more. Hopefully it won't be a whole lot of hoopla over nothing (in other words, I hope 'the sundering' isn't some form of corporate double-talk, and we will still be in the dark as to what we are getting). So there is good news, bad news, and rhetoric (no news at all). You know - like when a political candidate talks for an hour and afterward no one really knows which side of the issues he was on. I just hope the Gencon announcements aren't of that variety (I doubt it, but you never know).
We need to be dazzled this time out - I hope they are up to it. I'm over-due for some be-dazzlement. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 13 Aug 2012 : 23:37:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Lets just keep in mind that however we feel about the 5e rules, the idea is we are Realms fans first. We can use whatever rules we like. Unless they do something truly awful to the Realms come 5e (and I am just not seeing it), we should still remain Realms fan and "editions be damned".
I think our dislike for what happened to the Realms in 4e really turned us a against it as a whole. I truly feel the rules would have been better received if they didn't feel like "part of the attack" (because we did indeed take it as an attack). I'm not saying the rules were great (they were very good for what they tried to accomplish, but perhaps not what a lot of us wanted), but I think the hatred for them wouldn't have been so strong.
I don't want this same thing to happen (in reverse?) when 5e FR comes around. Keep the rules and the setting separate in our minds, and maybe we'll all be a little happier. Despite my current optimism, I am sure there will be some things we still don't like after the announcements are made, but we should try to discuss these things and not trash everything before it even comes out (which is what happened to 4e - we kinda stopped it cold before it ever left the gate).
And I am not blaming us... or them... it was a little of both. Poor presentation lead to poor reception which lead to automatic dislike of everything that came after. This is a new team, and a new (old?) direction. Lets at least let it take its first few tentative breaths before we 'beat the baby'.
We gotta love our ugly little baby, remember? Maybe we can wait awhile, and just trip it when it walks by... (you didn't think I 'got nice' all of a sudden, did you?) 
Whoa whoa whoa... far be it from me to pull the brake cord on this runaway enthusiasm train, but I think it's completely unfair to say that people "didn't give 4E a chance" in the early stages and worse to suggest that we're also doing that to 5E. You're presenting an image of judgy customers, which I'd agree with generally, but D&D customers have always been judgy about everything. But not giving it a fair chance?
Despite rampant speculation and want lists, at this moment we still have NO idea what they'll do in the 5E Realms. We'll have a better idea after the GenCon panels and opening address, but even then we haven't had anything even remotely like the pre-release articles that were provided for 4E Realms. Whether you liked the major themes of 4E or not, those "Countdown to the Realms" articles were quite specific about the drastic changes that were made.
Yes, peoples' reactions were... polarizing. But unfair or "lacking" because they didn't yet have the whole enchilada? No. WotC did exactly what they said they'd do, and it wasn't the case that the published volume was dramatically different from what they said they'd do.
If people are already making judgments about 5E Realms, it's a judgment about some image they have in their head. That said, I do think it's completely fair of people to state exactly what they like or dislike about the current state of the Realms.
Now if the information from GenCon is vague and undefined and people lose their minds, sure... I can see your argument. But if they're highly specific like last time and people react honestly to that (for or against), then it's really not unfair.
Anyway, as fun as this is, the Playtest Packet #2 for D&D Next is now up. So I'm gonna go look that over.
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Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
Edited by - Therise on 13 Aug 2012 23:41:35 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 14 Aug 2012 : 00:06:28
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All I am saying is that the double-whammy of the century timejump/PlagueRealms and the not-so-D&Dish rules fed into each other. It was a complete system shock to many of us (or 'slap in the face' - take your pick).
Our dislike for both turned into outright hostile hatred when it all got lumped together. Perhaps we should 'review' what is offered in a more piece-meal approach this time out.
In retrospect, when I look back on certain aspects of 4e - both lore and rules - I realize some of it didn't deserve the level of animosity thrown at it. The 'mob mentality' thing just sorta caught fire for awhile (and I was at the center of it, so if I am pointing any fingers here it is directly at myself). In fact, it even spilled-over onto people who liked 4e (we almost tried to make them feel ashamed for liking it).
The 'edition wars' was a dark period in D&D history - I'd like to see it become a footnote. I am just worried that if people hear a couple of things they don't like at Gencon, all the 'good' will get washed away by the 'bad' (which, of course, will be highly subjective and on a person-by-person basis). Lets try to focus on the positive this time out (and I am hoping there will be great big globs of that).
I have a feeling too many people who don't give a rat's ass abut RPGs and D&D will be watching this con - people with the ability to "drop the axe". A flood of negativity could wind-up getting FR cancelled as a product line before it even has a chance. We'd have no-one to blame but ourselves at that point. I'm normally not the type of person to want to sugar-coat everything, but right now too much is riding on this. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 14 Aug 2012 : 01:11:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
All I am saying is that the double-whammy of the century timejump/PlagueRealms and the not-so-D&Dish rules fed into each other. It was a complete system shock to many of us (or 'slap in the face' - take your pick).
Our dislike for both turned into outright hostile hatred when it all got lumped together. Perhaps we should 'review' what is offered in a more piece-meal approach this time out.
Nah, not at all. As I've said many times, I was perfectly fine with the 4E rules and I actually quite liked them. They had no bearing on my interpretation of the Realms. I don't think I'm unusual in that respect.
quote:
In retrospect, when I look back on certain aspects of 4e - both lore and rules - I realize some of it didn't deserve the level of animosity thrown at it. The 'mob mentality' thing just sorta caught fire for awhile (and I was at the center of it, so if I am pointing any fingers here it is directly at myself). In fact, it even spilled-over onto people who liked 4e (we almost tried to make them feel ashamed for liking it).
Markus, let's be honest here. Your moods are rather fluid, and can radically change to an opposite view. I don't think you've ever been "in the middle" on anything, but you have been known to flip 180 degrees from one week to the next, expressing one opinion on weeks 1-3 and the polar opposite on week 4+. And yes, there were indeed people who overreacted, but that happens with any fandom.
quote:
The 'edition wars' was a dark period in D&D history - I'd like to see it become a footnote. I am just worried that if people hear a couple of things they don't like at Gencon, all the 'good' will get washed away by the 'bad' (which, of course, will be highly subjective and on a person-by-person basis). Lets try to focus on the positive this time out (and I am hoping there will be great big globs of that).
Edition wars happen every edition. They only seem "huge" if you're in the direct middle of it.
quote:
I have a feeling too many people who don't give a rat's ass abut RPGs and D&D will be watching this con - people with the ability to "drop the axe". A flood of negativity could wind-up getting FR cancelled as a product line before it even has a chance. We'd have no-one to blame but ourselves at that point. I'm normally not the type of person to want to sugar-coat everything, but right now too much is riding on this.
Fear-mongering drama. "We'd all better LOVE IT NO MATTER WHAT or the suits will cancel EVERYTHING FOREVER!!!" Not.
I'm willing to give it a fair shake. But to do that, I need some actual details and a copy of the book.
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Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
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Tarlyn
Learned Scribe
USA
315 Posts |
Posted - 15 Aug 2012 : 11:53:02
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| Any chance one of the panel members could do a little write of the information distributed in the sundering seminars and post it here after the seminars / weekend? Or at least one of the other scribes? I don't think ENworld will do transcripts for the sundering events, but hopefully I am wrong. |
Tarlyn Embersun |
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Venger
Learned Scribe
USA
269 Posts |
Posted - 15 Aug 2012 : 12:36:42
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D'oh! I came here a month or so ago, heard there'd be news this month and just remembered about it, so I came on over to check out what it was only to find out I'm still a few days early. I'll be back in a week, then.
EXEUNT. |
"Beware what you say when you speak of magic, wizard, or you shall see who has the greater power." |
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Uzzy
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
618 Posts |
Posted - 16 Aug 2012 : 02:00:33
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| Given the recent track record, I'm doubtful we'll get something good.. but who knows. I'll at least look up what's offered and see if it can be of use to my games. |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4470 Posts |
Posted - 16 Aug 2012 : 06:42:51
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| The best thing I think I'll hope for is the ability to use the information regardless of edition. I've become a multi-edition fan and I enjoy employing all aspects of the Realms regardless of the rulest. Yet the more divorced the lore/setting is from the actual mechanics, the better IMO. |
Diffan's NPG Generator: FR NPC Generator |
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Garen Thal
Master of Realmslore
USA
1105 Posts |
Posted - 16 Aug 2012 : 14:00:18
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| Today is the day, folks. Get your smart phones, iDevices, and thumbs a-ready. Things is comin'... |
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Uzzy
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
618 Posts |
Posted - 16 Aug 2012 : 16:40:21
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| How many hours to go, Garen? |
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Eilserus
Master of Realmslore
USA
1446 Posts |
Posted - 16 Aug 2012 : 16:58:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Garen Thal
Today is the day, folks. Get your smart phones, iDevices, and thumbs a-ready. Things is comin'...
In the words of Ren and Stimpy, "happy happy joy joy!" |
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Brimstone
Great Reader
USA
3290 Posts |
Posted - 16 Aug 2012 : 19:41:04
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quote:
Originally posted by Uzzy
How many hours to go, Garen?
Not Garen, in my timezone...4:20 to go. |
"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep |
Edited by - Brimstone on 16 Aug 2012 19:42:17 |
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Uzzy
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
618 Posts |
Posted - 17 Aug 2012 : 01:04:34
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| Oh goodie. Another dramatic change to the Realms. Just what everyone wanted! |
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Eilserus
Master of Realmslore
USA
1446 Posts |
Posted - 17 Aug 2012 : 01:34:19
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| I'm not sure it's going to be all that bad, as they stated it wasn't going to be like a Time of Troubles and definitely nothing like the Spellplague |
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Uzzy
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
618 Posts |
Posted - 17 Aug 2012 : 01:38:40
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| I do hope we learn more about what changes are actually happening at another seminar, cause other then 'dramatic changes' and 'Buy our six novels!', I don't think any real information was shared. |
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Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2450 Posts |
Posted - 17 Aug 2012 : 01:40:05
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| The problem is that unless it goes back in time, any RSE can't do anything to fix the Realms. The Realms is the people, not the scenery, and they killed all the people in the 4e timeskip. And it sounds like they're still trying to go forward. Sorry, but you can't build on that broken base. |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
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Uzzy
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
618 Posts |
Posted - 17 Aug 2012 : 01:41:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Hoondatha
The problem is that unless it goes back in time, any RSE can't do anything to fix the Realms. The Realms is the people, not the scenery, and they killed all the people in the 4e timeskip. And it sounds like they're still trying to go forward. Sorry, but you can't build on that broken base.
This as well. |
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Caolin
Senior Scribe
769 Posts |
Posted - 17 Aug 2012 : 01:56:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Hoondatha
The problem is that unless it goes back in time, any RSE can't do anything to fix the Realms. The Realms is the people, not the scenery, and they killed all the people in the 4e timeskip. And it sounds like they're still trying to go forward. Sorry, but you can't build on that broken base.
I'm sorry but in my opinion, a jump back in time will KILL...let me repeat....KIIIIILLL the Realms for good. It just doesn't work. Sure I pine for the old days and the magic I remember from the Grey Box. I'm sure all of the old timers will be happy. But those days are gone and they can't be resurrected. All they would accomplish is to make a small segment happy and alienate anyone who came into the Realms within the last 10 years.
No, a jump back in time never ever works. You can't just say "hey, remember all of those novels and resource books you bought over the past decade? Well none of it ever happened....our bad!". I for one would be royally pissed if they did that. Far more pissed than I was when they jumped forward 100 years. I stuck with them through 4E out of loyalty to and love for the Realms. |
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Dark Wizard
Senior Scribe
USA
830 Posts |
Posted - 17 Aug 2012 : 02:01:39
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The Sundering logo could be a hint of things to come. Literally two worlds separating... or colliding. Perhaps Abeir will be a fixture in the Next Realms. It may be a way to support Classic Realms and Plague-era Realms. Two interlinked worlds rather than one.
Anyone notice the new (?) Forgotten Realms logo, it looked like a mash up of the 1e/2e era font typeface with the 3e era moon and stars styling and flourish? |
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Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2450 Posts |
Posted - 17 Aug 2012 : 02:03:12
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I don't want a jump back to the OGB. I don't play OGB; I'm a 2e person, and like all of the options that it introduced. I even like a lot of the 3e things. I just want 4e repudiated. Well, ideally I'd reset the timeline to the start of 1375, and wipe out the trio of Shade adventures that led up to the 4e change-over, but I'd even be (sort of) ok with those staying.
And "all those books?" Really? There's been a grand total of two Realms sourcebooks printed, and that was years ago. That was one of the big problems with 4e in the first place. They never printed the books to begin with. |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
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Caolin
Senior Scribe
769 Posts |
Posted - 17 Aug 2012 : 02:12:58
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quote:
Originally posted by Hoondatha
I don't want a jump back to the OGB. I don't play OGB; I'm a 2e person, and like all of the options that it introduced. I even like a lot of the 3e things. I just want 4e repudiated. Well, ideally I'd reset the timeline to the start of 1375, and wipe out the trio of Shade adventures that led up to the 4e change-over, but I'd even be (sort of) ok with those staying.
And "all those books?" Really? There's been a grand total of two Realms sourcebooks printed, and that was years ago. That was one of the big problems with 4e in the first place. They never printed the books to begin with.
I don't play the game, I read the novels. And there have been a lot of Realms novels released in 4E and I have pretty much read them all. So even though I didn't like the Spellplague and the time jump, it just wasn't enough to force me away from the Realms. Over time and with the help of some well written novels, I got over my distaste for 4E Realms.
See, this is what I don't understand about the haters. If you hate 4E so much, then why don't you just ignore it? I've asked this question over and over but no one seems to have an answer. If you are that hardcore into playing DnD, then why aren't you customizing your own Realms? I would think that a dedicated DM would love the opportunity to take events into their own hands. Sure, I understand that with that approach you would never get to enjoy any new Realms products. But that is the price of stubbornness I guess. |
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Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2450 Posts |
Posted - 17 Aug 2012 : 02:22:25
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Why are you assuming I haven't?
I still run games in the Realms (the latest starting only a few weeks ago) using material from 1e, 2e, and 3e. Less 3e than the first two, but plenty of it nonetheless. I ignore 4e completely (except for the look of the genasi, which for some reason I just really enjoy).
That's missing the point, however. Even when 3e was at its worst, there were interesting things coming out in the novels and in the sourcebooks. Things that even if I didn't agree with completely, I could use or adapt, or small pieces that could send me down entirely unthought paths in my Realms. I lost that with 4e. There's nothing there for me to use or adapt, because it's a completely different setting. And my Realms are poorer for it. |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 17 Aug 2012 : 02:30:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Hoondatha
The Realms is the people, not the scenery, and they killed all the people in the 4e timeskip.
Moreover, it's all the thousands of established people, and their relationships, not a handful of 'famous' ones who could be seeded back as orphans from the old world. With all possible creative freedom, it would take another forty-five years to recreate that in a new century.
Enough from me, I'll wait and see now. |
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Caolin
Senior Scribe
769 Posts |
Posted - 17 Aug 2012 : 02:39:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Hoondatha
Why are you assuming I haven't?
I still run games in the Realms (the latest starting only a few weeks ago) using material from 1e, 2e, and 3e. Less 3e than the first two, but plenty of it nonetheless. I ignore 4e completely (except for the look of the genasi, which for some reason I just really enjoy).
That's missing the point, however. Even when 3e was at its worst, there were interesting things coming out in the novels and in the sourcebooks. Things that even if I didn't agree with completely, I could use or adapt, or small pieces that could send me down entirely unthought paths in my Realms. I lost that with 4e. There's nothing there for me to use or adapt, because it's a completely different setting. And my Realms are poorer for it.
Well, I sympathize with you in that regard. But wanting a reset is just not fair to those who stuck with the story line and bought the novels. It's also not fair to those who like 4E and established their games in 4E. You don't really want to drive away one segment just to please another. They would basically be standing still. It seems obvious to me that they are aware of this issue and want to find a way out of this mess without pissing off too many people. |
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Dark Wizard
Senior Scribe
USA
830 Posts |
Posted - 17 Aug 2012 : 03:06:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Caolin
See, this is what I don't understand about the haters. If you hate 4E so much, then why don't you just ignore it? I've asked this question over and over but no one seems to have an answer. If you are that hardcore into playing DnD, then why aren't you customizing your own Realms? I would think that a dedicated DM would love the opportunity to take events into their own hands. Sure, I understand that with that approach you would never get to enjoy any new Realms products. But that is the price of stubbornness I guess.
Fans of the Pre-4E Realms have been asking that same question. To the people who hated the 1e/2e/3e Realms, why keep harping on why the Realms are a bad setting? Apparently they didn't stop and the 4E changes happened and the rest is history as we've witnessed it.
The problem with having two such varying versions of the setting is the constant need to clarify between players which version is in use for each game. It's fine if your entire group is steady and full of long-time players, you all agree on one or the other, but if you're trying to manage a mixed group of 4E and not-4E players it goes into a discussion of what or what isn't in play. What if one player wants to play an Untherite rebel against Mulhorand and another wants to play a Tymantheran Dragonborn?
In a way the setting version that gets supported wins out in the long run as more new players will be familiar with that version and have access to the books, which are recently in print.
quote:
Originally posted by Caolin
Well, I sympathize with you in that regard. But wanting a reset is just not fair to those who stuck with the story line and bought the novels. It's also not fair to those who like 4E and established their games in 4E. You don't really want to drive away one segment just to please another. They would basically be standing still. It seems obvious to me that they are aware of this issue and want to find a way out of this mess without pissing off too many people.
A bit too late for that, they already drove away a significant portion of the pre-4E fans. We have hints that the new or 4E fans alone have not meet the necessary requirements to sustain the setting by themselves. Otherwise there would be no attempt to interest pre-4E fans with these announcements. It remains to be seen if the actual implementation of these plans will bring the old fans back.
I agree they are stuck with the unenviable task of producing a setting that will unite as many fans of the 4E version and the older versions as possible. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36910 Posts |
Posted - 17 Aug 2012 : 04:01:13
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| Folks, can we steer clear of yet another round of the edition wars? We've hashed out all these arguments already, approximately 314,572.27 times on this site alone. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
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Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2450 Posts |
Posted - 17 Aug 2012 : 04:09:26
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Not our fault. WotC stirred us up again, and then didn't provide any details to answer any of our questions. So until they start handing out specifics there's nothing for us to do but speculate.
Endlessly.
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Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
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The Hidden Lord
Learned Scribe
148 Posts |
Posted - 17 Aug 2012 : 04:13:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Folks, can we steer clear of yet another round of the edition wars? We've hashed out all these arguments already, approximately 314,572.27 times on this site alone.
May Candlekeep scribes please discuss whichever aspect of the Realms they wish, within those boundaries established by the Code of Conduct? |
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 17 Aug 2012 : 04:22:03
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What's to talk about, really? No details of any real consequence yet. Maybe tomorrow. Another RSE of unknown proportions and an author list is about all they divulged. And about a thousand "it's gonna be awesome!" promises.
What's this thing about an "aggregate player outcome" of two adventures having an impact on canon? We lobbied long and hard to divorce Living FR from canon, this mass player thing sounds worse.
On a separate note, I am really enjoying the playtest and how it's evolving.
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Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
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Forgotten Realms? NDA (and then… not so much)
