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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
 Posted - 21 Jul 2012 : 17:32:00
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In an novel - probably City of Splendors by Elaine and Ed - it describes an entire sub-culture where halflings and gnomes (and the occasional dwarf) live, separately from the main body of Waterdeep.
Anyone recall this? What is it called? I remember there was either a gnome or halfling who was 'in charge' of the place. Was it called 'The Warrens'? (that just popped into my head!) Am I thinking of Vlorn Keenear? All I recall is that the main character had to go see him for some reason.
Can anyone tell me anything about it? I just checked the 3e Waterdeep sourcebook, and apparently it was overlooked (it should have been in the 'Communities Within' section, but its not. 
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"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore
5056 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jul 2012 : 17:56:11
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Yes, you're right, it was and is called "the Warrens." It's cellar to a little deeper level, in a small area of the city (south and west of it, the tides and the harbor make this depth part of the sewers).
love,
THO |
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Fellfire
Master of Realmslore
1965 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jul 2012 : 18:32:13
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Again, I think Dream Spheres mentions the place. Lily Thann has some dealing with the halflings while weaving thread for her gemcloaks.
edit: No, wait. That doesn't sound right. I think I'm confusing a few characters. I just need to reread the book. The Waterdeep novel co-written by Ed and Elaine, perhaps? |
Misanthorpe
Love is a lie. Only hate endures. Light is blinding. Only in darkness do we see clearly.
"Oh, you think darkness is your ally? You merely adopted the dark. I was born in it, molded by it. I didn't see the light until I was already a man, by then it was nothing to me but.. blinding. The shadows betray you because they belong to me." - Bane The Dark Knight Rises
Green Dragonscale Dice Bag by Crystalsidyll - check it out
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Edited by - Fellfire on 21 Jul 2012 18:36:13 |
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ericlboyd
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
2067 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jul 2012 : 19:59:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
In an novel - probably City of Splendors by Elaine and Ed - it describes an entire sub-culture where halflings and gnomes (and the occasional dwarf) live, separately from the main body of Waterdeep.
Anyone recall this? What is it called? I remember there was either a gnome or halfling who was 'in charge' of the place. Was it called 'The Warrens'? (that just popped into my head!) Am I thinking of Vlorn Keenear? All I recall is that the main character had to go see him for some reason.
Can anyone tell me anything about it? I just checked the 3e Waterdeep sourcebook, and apparently it was overlooked (it should have been in the 'Communities Within' section, but its not.
It's in there: page 104 of City of Splendors: Waterdeep.
--Eric |
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http://www.ericlboyd.com/dnd/ |
Edited by - ericlboyd on 21 Jul 2012 20:01:31 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jul 2012 : 22:25:51
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Yeah, but that little 'sound bite' doesn't really do it justice. The small folk therein alluded to the fact that The Warrens are older then Waterdeep itself (it goes much deeper, and is much more extensive, then just a few hidden cellars and hard-to-reach dwellings).
At least, that's the feel I got from the novel - more its own, separate place (akin to Skullport), then part of Waterdeep-proper. The Watch doesn't even patrol there (because they can't - its too tight in most places). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 21 Jul 2012 22:27:00 |
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore
5056 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jul 2012 : 04:02:10
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Well, here's Ed on the Warrens (just sent to me in an e-mail):
The Warrens are everchanging, and are (largely) shallow.
Here's why: as the years pass and buildings fall to rubble and midden-heaps are flattened and dried out, the level of the city "ground" slowly rises. So the Way of the Dragon "today" is about six to seven feet higher than its cobbles were three or four centuries back.
The Warrens began as low-ceilinged chambers and passages "fitted around, between, and just under" human cellars, and have expanded a little upwards, and a lot more outwards, as the city above them has risen (in the manner I described above).
The Warrens does interconnect with Undermountain, and with at least one gate/portal to elsewhere, and in several places with human cellars and with the sewers. So that's how it "goes much deeper." It's much older than most of surface Waterdeep today, yes, but not older than the human encampment at the deepwater harbor; that's small folk hyperbole. The Warrens have always connected with some small natural caverns inside Mount Waterdeep (that aren't part of Undermountain/the Citadel of the Bloody Hand), but don't underlie much of Waterdeep north of Castle Waterdeep.
And there you have it, Markustay!
love,
THO
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jul 2012 : 05:36:50
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Thanks you very much - thats pretty much how I was picturing it.
'Deeper' is a very relative term, especially on world with an Underdark. Hin and gnomes can be very 'deep' below ground (under Mount Waterdeep) and still be above sea level. When I think of demiihumans, goblinoids (inlcuding Orcs), & even giants, I think more in terms of RW cavern systems - shallow by comparison to fantasy, and usually beneath mountains and such (so they aren't truly 'deep' as in down, but rather as in 'deep in').
In fact, this helps a lot on something I'm doing for the Five Shires conversion project (Halflings and gnomes like to have their own hidden, 'shallow dark' tunnel systems beneath most settlements they have a large percentage of the population in - this inspired by some other Ed lore... somewhere around Sunset Vale IIRC). Small Folk like to surprise 'biguns' by popping up behind them. 
And now I just got a picture of an old Hogan's Heroes episode stuck in my head.
Thanks again THO & Ed.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 22 Jul 2012 05:37:17 |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jul 2012 : 00:50:04
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My novel DOWNSHADOW also mentions the Warrens, where dwells the extensive family of one of my supporting characters. Also a printing press set up to churn out a "for-us-by-us" halfling-owned broadsheet called (if I recall correctly) "Happy Toes."
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jul 2012 : 04:28:27
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Downshadow will probably be the next book I buy.
Not because of your post just now - I've just been putting it off too long, and now that I've finished RotAW I need to start another Realms story. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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_Jarlaxle_
Senior Scribe
Germany
584 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jul 2012 : 12:42:45
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Wasn't there a very old halfling shaman, oracle or something like this in a novel who helped the protagonist?
Or am I confusing this with another halfling subculture in another city (or something completly diffrent)? |
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Steven Schend
Forgotten Realms Designer & Author
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 02 Aug 2012 : 20:12:22
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quote:
Originally posted by _Jarlaxle_
Wasn't there a very old halfling shaman, oracle or something like this in a novel who helped the protagonist?
Or am I confusing this with another halfling subculture in another city (or something completly diffrent)?
Gnome cleric in my BLACKSTAFF TOWER novel (now conveniently packaged with Mr. de Bie's DOWNSHADOW aforementioned).
Steven |
For current projects and general natter, see www.steveneschend.com
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_Jarlaxle_
Senior Scribe
Germany
584 Posts |
Posted - 03 Aug 2012 : 14:35:09
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Ahh thanks.
I wish I had time to reread all those novels |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 03 Aug 2012 : 15:36:27
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Also in that package: Mistshore, Jaleigh's awesome book about crime and the underworld of Waterdeep's harbor. Three awesome books for the price of two--can't beat that.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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_Jarlaxle_
Senior Scribe
Germany
584 Posts |
Posted - 03 Aug 2012 : 16:12:29
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"Unfortunatly" I allready own the complete series  |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31727 Posts |
Posted - 04 Aug 2012 : 03:25:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
Also in that package: Mistshore, Jaleigh's awesome book about crime and the underworld of Waterdeep's harbor. Three awesome books for the price of two--can't beat that.
Cheers
Mistshore was undoubtedly one of the highlights of the entire "Ed Presents Waterdeep" series.
I'm optimistically hoping Jaleigh will return to those characters at some point. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 04 Aug 2012 : 06:58:52
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You know whats weird? I barely remember anything about the book, aside from the subject matter of this thread, and some battle out on the water (i think the finale - not sure).
Was that the one with the bones flying around the tower, or was that Blackstaff Tower? I think I may have read the Waterdeep novels too close together - they managed to get smooshed together in my memory.
All I really recall from any of them is this feeling of despair - it was like living inside the ruins of ancient Rome (at least thats how it felt to me). It just didn't feel like Waterdeep to me any more.
The city itself became 'points of light'... maybe thats it. It no longer felt 'whole'. It was broken. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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_Jarlaxle_
Senior Scribe
Germany
584 Posts |
Posted - 06 Aug 2012 : 09:28:01
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I thought that was the intention of the books.
Showing how everything went downstairs after the spellplague, but people still live their lifes and do their thing. |
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Brimstone
Great Reader
USA
3287 Posts |
Posted - 06 Aug 2012 : 09:42:38
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quote:
Originally posted by _Jarlaxle_
"Unfortunatly" I allready own the complete series
I do to and I enjoyed them. |
"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 06 Aug 2012 : 23:33:40
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quote:
Originally posted by _Jarlaxle_
I thought that was the intention of the books.
Showing how everything went downstairs after the spellplague, but people still live their lifes and do their thing.
Not really. I certainly didn't intend my book to present life as crappy (maybe among the underground criminal element). There are WAY too many revels going on for that.
To me, the books feel very much like how I always pictured Waterdeep.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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_Jarlaxle_
Senior Scribe
Germany
584 Posts |
Posted - 07 Aug 2012 : 10:19:37
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Well I didn't say it was crappy now, but in my impression it was harder now. Don't know how to put it, broken somehow describes it a bit.
But maybe this depends on what personal feelings and expectations about the time after the spellplague everyone has when he reads them. |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 07 Aug 2012 : 16:37:15
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Noted, _J_, and if I implied that's what you were saying, I apologize. What I was saying was that the INTENTION was not to portray Waterdeep in an unflattering light or as a crappy place to live. Sure, there's suffering and injustice and grime there, but then, there always has been.
I think the Ed Greenwood Presents series suffers a little from the "overall" impression of the Spellplague and time jump, which is to say that "it made the world a darker, crappier place to dwell." This impression is correct in some respects while in others, it's just a head fake to make the setting seem new/edgy.
In reality, the Realms has gone through light periods and dark periods, and the era between the Spellplague and the modern age is a somewhat dark one. (Is it as dark as some eras in Faerun's past? I would hazard a judgment and say "not remotely.")
I suspect that the next vision of the Forgotten Realms will be a little lighter, but only time will really tell.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 14 Aug 2012 : 20:18:42
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I wasn't speaking about the people - they seemed pretty much the same (perhaps a bit more jaded then I remember). I was talking about the city itself. It seemes to me that after the plague and a hundred years later, 'city of splendors' was a bit of a misnomer.
I don't recall which book it was, but I remember them even describing the statuary in the city as broken (missing arms, defaced, etc). It just seems to have really gone down hill. A harbor full of garbage doesn't help, either. It just has this 'grunge' vibe it never had before.
Now, I am not saying this is a bad thing - I have repeatedly said that the new Waterdeep is much more useful to me as a DM. Whereas before I wouldn't have run an adventure there (I ran a one-night solo thing there as a side-quest for my bro-in-law's thief), now I can think of lots of interesting things to have PCs do there.
So, while I will continue to maintain it feels very different to me, I am not precisely putting it down. The fan in me weeps whenever major changes are made to the setting, but its not the only criteria I judge lore on. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 14 Aug 2012 20:18:58 |
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Kno
Senior Scribe
452 Posts |
Posted - 16 Aug 2012 : 10:24:58
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| you were biased when you started reading EGPW |
z455t |
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Waterdeep: Looking for small folk
