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Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader
USA
2717 Posts |
 Posted - 02 Jul 2012 : 18:18:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Hawkins
In this blog the writer found some interesting Google statistics for 3.5/4e/Pathfinder.
Interesting read. Thanks for the link, Hawkins.
My conclusion from the data? With so many people playing D&D, D&D wins.  |
Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver). |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jul 2012 : 18:21:16
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People do not 'Google' "old stuff" - they Google whatever the hell interests them. I am sure kim Kardashian gets far more hits the Marilyn Monroe, which has absolutely no bearing on who is 'better' (or in that case, actually worthy of their fame). There is less 'current' info about Marilyn, and you can't turn on the TV without hearing about the Kardashians, and yet they get millions of hits every day.
So its not a matter of old and new info determining how many hits an edition gets - its a matter of how interested the general public is in a topic.
You can make all the excuses you want for 4e, but I have my hip-high waders on and I'm ready for it. 
When the company itself is no longer interested in supporting something, then thats the greatest indication of the true situation of all. You don't cancel a success, you cancel a failure and try to do something different. It doesn't matter what any of us thinks - its what the guys in charge think, because they have all the 'hard numbers' right in front of them. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 02 Jul 2012 18:21:45 |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4470 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jul 2012 : 19:00:48
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
No one said this is indicative of sales.
Yet you said "It's not definitive, but it certainly is reflective of an overall trend -- like Pathfinder outselling D&D." I don't infer that from this data. Really, the data only tells us what's searched and tags associated with it. That's about it. I don't see anything reflected in one outselling another other than the conicidence that Pathfinder currently sells more than D&D in stores.
Pathfinder outselling D&D is a separate fact. I said this data reflected the same trend. The trend is that 4E is not as popular, and this data reflects this, as does sales and the fact that 4E is already being scrapped. I wasn't drawing sales data from search data, I was putting search data together with other data.
Google =/= popularity of one fan base. It's not a good way to show comparative market research. If Star Wars is 'Googled' 1-million times more than Star Trek, does that mean Star Wars is better? Or more popular? To me, it wouldn't because it's not indicative of popularity or the reference of those 'Googles'. I could 'Google' "What are major problmes with D&D 3.5E?" or "Why does v3.5 suck so much?!" and by this data, that sould indicate that v3.5 is popular. Which doesn't make much sense to me since my inquires of that edition are negative.
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
What the numbers do show is that with a ruleset that's only 4 years old, there are more people searching for its predecessor or the revamp of that predecessor, and not for the current ruleset itself. When you put this together with the facts that this 4 year old ruleset is being replaced, that it's being outsold by the revamp of the prior ruleset, and that the company that used to dominate the RPG market is no longer on top, all that is indicative of a general trend.
Yet it's not. Just today I googled 4 different spells for 3.5 for a character I'm making. Thats 4 separate searches for their Google's data. Compare that to when I make a 4E character and everything is on 1 database (D&D Compendium). No searches needed. The data doesn't show sales, the data doesn't say more people play one vs. the other, and the data doesn't shed any light on the so called "Edition Wars".
Okay, goodie, you can build a character without hitting Google. And does that mean that there is nothing else 4E-related that people might want to look up? Becuase what I'm reading in your statement is that errata, source material, fan material, products and reviews of those products, optimal builds, customer character sheets, everything imaginable for 4E can be found on the Compendium, and that there is no possible need to ever search for anything else.
Errata, Source material, and Products are all available on D&D's main site. D&D Compendium gives me any Ruling, Errata, spell, Paragon path, Power, Weapon, Enhancement, Monster, Class, Sub-Class, Epic Destiny, feat, Skill power, Theme, Background, Trap, keyword, Poison, potion EVER created through a WotC supplement or Dungeon/Dragon article.
What people might google for 4E are character optimization, homebrew character sheets (although I doubt it since the CB already prints you out a Character sheet with all the info done for you), and the normal homebrew content associated with D&D (unique powers, paragon paths, items, etc.) but I think this trend has died down significantly with 4E's balanced approach. People are more timid in my experience to tamper with the game because of the balance issue.
Yet compare that with v3.5 and everything that's available online AND in a day where PDF sales are blocked AND books are out of print. I don't think it's hard to see that people who want to play v3.5 might google it more often than a system that has everything available on their site (with a fee). Add in the extensive 3PP support, Pathfinder support, homebrew support for the last 12 years of v3.5 and it's not a shocker to see how much more people will grab that information (via 'Google' to search) instead of paying for it with DDI.
What I infer from this data is that:
1). people enjoy free stuff and there is far more free v3.5 support and content on the internet than 4E stuff.
2). people who need 4e stuff are more likely to go to DDI and the D&D Compendium search engine for their specific desires than 'Google'.
3). the compatibility with Pathfinder makes it more likely people will 'Google' v3.5 material and content to shore up any holes in Pathfinder games (like a specific class, spell, feat, or magical item). Since 4E has no game similar to it, more people are willing to go with the system as-is than create their own.
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
This is not bashing 4E. This is looking at a bunch of data and reaching a conclusion.
No one is claiming any bashing is going on, however, I think the conclusion is steeped in conjecture, assumption, and coincidence rather than taking the facts as they are more people google 3.5 than 4E.
So it's conjecture to think that sales data, search data, and the advent of a new ruleset could possibly be indicative of something?
Absolutely. Going back, again, to the validity of ICv2 reports,it only takes a portion of sales from both D&D and Paizo. It's impossible for anyone not associated with either company to know how much X-editino sells in comparison to it's former edition OR against a competetor. Now, Paizo could be outselling D&D but I wouldn't know that either way.
Second, the designers of D&D:next have said many times that there is a rift in the D&D genre and that there are camps in the "Edition Wars". They see a trend that people are paying just as much, if not more, money to Paizo for a ruleset similiar to their former edition. WotC and Hasbro do not like this. Instead of staying the course and making 4E more robust and better, they're going yet another way. It's not indicative that 4E isn't popular, it's indicative that it's not popular enough to put them head and tails past Paizo. |
Diffan's NPG Generator: FR NPC Generator |
Edited by - Diffan on 02 Jul 2012 19:05:57 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36910 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jul 2012 : 19:03:03
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| Alright, I guess I'm going to bow out of this discussion. It's obviously not going to go anywhere productive. |
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Hawkins
Great Reader
USA
2131 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jul 2012 : 22:06:58
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| Further speculation (maybe even completely unfounded): If 3.5 (not just in the form of Pathfinder) does happen to be more popular than 4e, is the reprints an attempt to try and pull customer base back from Paizo, or is it just a smart attempt to reprint stuff that they let go out of print too quickly even though there was still demand for them? |
Errant d20 Designer - My Blog (last updated January 06, 2016)
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36910 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jul 2012 : 22:24:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Hawkins
Further speculation (maybe even completely unfounded): If 3.5 (not just in the form of Pathfinder) does happen to be more popular than 4e, is the reprints an attempt to try and pull customer base back from Paizo, or is it just a smart attempt to reprint stuff that they let go out of print too quickly even though there was still demand for them?
I'm more inclined to think the latter, though I'm sure WotC is hoping for a bit of the former. I don't think they'll be able to pull back customer base, though, without more active customer support than a one-off reprinting. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jul 2012 : 22:59:12
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quote:
Wooly Rupert
I don't think [WotC will] be able to pull back customer base, though, without more active customer support than a one-off reprinting.
Agreed, I'm thinking these reprints, like the 1E before, are more about "market research" than profit; WotC needs real data about how many old-edition fans and collectors are out there, and how many of them will actually buy reprinted (or even new!) old-edition materiel. Note that revenue from the 1E reprints was allocated towards an appealing charity, while revenue from 3.5E reprints is simple profit. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36910 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jul 2012 : 23:48:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
quote:
Wooly Rupert
I don't think [WotC will] be able to pull back customer base, though, without more active customer support than a one-off reprinting.
Agreed, I'm thinking these reprints, like the 1E before, are more about "market research" than profit; WotC needs real data about how many old-edition fans and collectors are out there, and how many of them will actually buy reprinted (or even new!) old-edition materiel. Note that revenue from the 1E reprints was allocated towards an appealing charity, while revenue from 3.5E reprints is simple profit.
I've considered that, but I'm not quite as sure... They've not said anything about 2E, yet, and all that has been announced is Core Rulebooks. I'd be more convinced this was market research if we had more than just these two one-offs. |
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Tarlyn
Learned Scribe
USA
315 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jul 2012 : 00:52:40
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I think it is just an attempt to generate goodwill, even if it does not sell, it gets the Pathfinder / 3.5 crowds attention.
I am not sure how useful it would be at gathering market data, I would imagine most people that want a 3.5 corebook either have one, or have a Pathfinder version. |
Tarlyn Embersun |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36910 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jul 2012 : 03:51:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Tarlyn
I think it is just an attempt to generate goodwill, even if it does not sell, it gets the Pathfinder / 3.5 crowds attention.
I am not sure how useful it would be at gathering market data, I would imagine most people that want a 3.5 corebook either have one, or have a Pathfinder version.
I've decided not to buy the 3.5 books, except maybe for the Monster Manual, because of the fact I've got the Pathfinder books.
I am reminded of the "Joss Whedon is my master now" t-shirts. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jul 2012 : 04:39:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Tarlyn
I think it is just an attempt to generate goodwill, even if it does not sell, it gets the Pathfinder / 3.5 crowds attention.
The dates don't quite match up... but it could also simply be about celebrating the anniversary of the much loved 3.5e in July 2003. |
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Xnella Moonblade-Thann
Learned Scribe
USA
234 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jul 2012 : 10:23:32
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| I would love to have new versions of my beloved 3.5 rulebooks. Too many all-nighters and moving them from one end of the house to the other, and to other places as well, has worn them out. Still usable, but some pages have seen better days. I do have the .pdf files a friend found and bought for me and I paid for them, but some days I can't get to my computer or we don't have electricity because of the stupid power company. Besides, I've always liked carrying the books around, especially in school because I could always find a person who was also into D&D, and it's a lot better than staring at a screen who refuses to load properly because my .pdf reader is really, really wonky. I just hope they go for the same price or lower as they were at their first release. Anything more than that is out of the question for me. |
"Sweet water and light laughter until next we meet." - traditional elven farewell
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4216 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jul 2012 : 15:47:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
quote:
Wooly Rupert
I don't think [WotC will] be able to pull back customer base, though, without more active customer support than a one-off reprinting.
Agreed, I'm thinking these reprints, like the 1E before, are more about "market research" than profit; WotC needs real data about how many old-edition fans and collectors are out there, and how many of them will actually buy reprinted (or even new!) old-edition materiel. Note that revenue from the 1E reprints was allocated towards an appealing charity, while revenue from 3.5E reprints is simple profit.
I've considered that, but I'm not quite as sure... They've not said anything about 2E, yet, and all that has been announced is Core Rulebooks. I'd be more convinced this was market research if we had more than just these two one-offs.
They did conduct a poll asking what other 3.5 products people are interested in. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36910 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jul 2012 : 17:41:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
quote:
Wooly Rupert
I don't think [WotC will] be able to pull back customer base, though, without more active customer support than a one-off reprinting.
Agreed, I'm thinking these reprints, like the 1E before, are more about "market research" than profit; WotC needs real data about how many old-edition fans and collectors are out there, and how many of them will actually buy reprinted (or even new!) old-edition materiel. Note that revenue from the 1E reprints was allocated towards an appealing charity, while revenue from 3.5E reprints is simple profit.
I've considered that, but I'm not quite as sure... They've not said anything about 2E, yet, and all that has been announced is Core Rulebooks. I'd be more convinced this was market research if we had more than just these two one-offs.
They did conduct a poll asking what other 3.5 products people are interested in.
But even with that, it was all still Core or core splats. Nothing about modules, setting-specific stuff, or anything non-3.5. I'd expect a little wider range of products, if it was true market research. |
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Dark Wizard
Senior Scribe
USA
830 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jul 2012 : 06:11:27
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They left a comments section where you can input your own thoughts or desired reprints. I used that space to suggest reprint ideas for Forgotten Realms 3e material.
I don't think they neglected settings for any reason other than crunchy core books sell best and with this being a reprint, the print run is likely already smaller than a new main line release.
They may have already done some market research into this and narrowed down on the best-sellers of D&D history. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jul 2012 : 06:36:26
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True enough; WotC isn't just collecting information about the customers, they're also experimenting with (to them) entirely new methods of distribution and marketing. Maybe they even expect to lose money on this run, but consider it a necessary expense in getting their feet on the ground.
I don't know the numbers at all, but it seems fairly obvious that the numbers in papercopy just aren't enough to keep a niche publisher like WotC happy. Perhaps their traditional markets are (or are predicted to be) unsustainable ... or perhaps they're just seeking ways to reach a broader audience and greater revenue. I personally think some fool at Hasbro decreed this is the way it's gonna be, probably after listening to a sales pitch. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4470 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jul 2012 : 16:37:13
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| I think it would be much simpler to just put ALL the books in 3E's library on sale in PDF form. Why bother with prints, distribution, and the middle-man when people can just download the book to their Kindle, nook, PC or whtever. Books are nice and all but they're more expensive, take up room, and break down over time with wear and tear. Instead, PDFs can and should be save to all sorts of other media like external hard drives, thumb drives, DVDs, blue-ray to prevent loss. And if they keep good records, they should be able to see what you bought to give you the download again if you lose the info |
Diffan's NPG Generator: FR NPC Generator |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jul 2012 : 17:59:23
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But isn't the whole point of this exercise to provide paper reprints?
The eBooks have some advantages and disadvantages. One of the disadvantages is that a computer file does not appeal to collectors. Largely because the collector has full control of and full access to everything on his bookshelf without having to contact the corporate mothership. eBooks are not as permanent as you say, unless one eventually resorts to hacking and piracy methods; if you think otherwise then just try to find some original working Apple II+ software - and an original Apple-licensed hardware platform to run it on - note that this software and hardware is approximately the same age as AD&D 1E books. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 05 Jul 2012 18:09:31 |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4470 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jul 2012 : 19:26:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
But isn't the whole point of this exercise to provide paper reprints?
The eBooks have some advantages and disadvantages. One of the disadvantages is that a computer file does not appeal to collectors. Largely because the collector has full control of and full access to everything on his bookshelf without having to contact the corporate mothership. eBooks are not as permanent as you say, unless one eventually resorts to hacking and piracy methods; if you think otherwise then just try to find some original working Apple II+ software - and an original Apple-licensed hardware platform to run it on - note that this software and hardware is approximately the same age as AD&D 1E books.
Then it goes back to who they're targeting for these things. If it's just the collectors, then it's understandable that they'll want to make these super-awesome with leather bindings and all the hoop-la for a big price tag. If its just to promote an older edition, I think digital is a far better way to go. And as far as software/e-books are concerned, I'm under the impression that once I purchase an E-book I have full access to that PDF. Is there some feature blocking my ability to copy that to a DVD, thumb-drive, or external hard-drive? If so, how does one 'port' it to other readable devices? |
Diffan's NPG Generator: FR NPC Generator |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3249 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jul 2012 : 12:50:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
But isn't the whole point of this exercise to provide paper reprints?
The eBooks have some advantages and disadvantages. One of the disadvantages is that a computer file does not appeal to collectors. Largely because the collector has full control of and full access to everything on his bookshelf without having to contact the corporate mothership. eBooks are not as permanent as you say, unless one eventually resorts to hacking and piracy methods; if you think otherwise then just try to find some original working Apple II+ software - and an original Apple-licensed hardware platform to run it on - note that this software and hardware is approximately the same age as AD&D 1E books.
Then it goes back to who they're targeting for these things. If it's just the collectors, then it's understandable that they'll want to make these super-awesome with leather bindings and all the hoop-la for a big price tag. If its just to promote an older edition, I think digital is a far better way to go. And as far as software/e-books are concerned, I'm under the impression that once I purchase an E-book I have full access to that PDF. Is there some feature blocking my ability to copy that to a DVD, thumb-drive, or external hard-drive? If so, how does one 'port' it to other readable devices?
e-books, like those for Kindles and Nooks, are HTML copies of the books, written with code so they only can be read on the Kindle/Nook/whatever's built-in reader software (i.e. browser). It is possible to share these files, but there's a lot of tags and such built into them to make it difficult.
PDFs on the other hand, can be shared with anyone. And, if done correctly, you can imprint the purchaser's information into a watermark on the file, meaning you could track back piracy to its source. |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36910 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jul 2012 : 17:07:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
But isn't the whole point of this exercise to provide paper reprints?
The eBooks have some advantages and disadvantages. One of the disadvantages is that a computer file does not appeal to collectors. Largely because the collector has full control of and full access to everything on his bookshelf without having to contact the corporate mothership. eBooks are not as permanent as you say, unless one eventually resorts to hacking and piracy methods; if you think otherwise then just try to find some original working Apple II+ software - and an original Apple-licensed hardware platform to run it on - note that this software and hardware is approximately the same age as AD&D 1E books.
Then it goes back to who they're targeting for these things. If it's just the collectors, then it's understandable that they'll want to make these super-awesome with leather bindings and all the hoop-la for a big price tag. If its just to promote an older edition, I think digital is a far better way to go. And as far as software/e-books are concerned, I'm under the impression that once I purchase an E-book I have full access to that PDF. Is there some feature blocking my ability to copy that to a DVD, thumb-drive, or external hard-drive? If so, how does one 'port' it to other readable devices?
e-books, like those for Kindles and Nooks, are HTML copies of the books, written with code so they only can be read on the Kindle/Nook/whatever's built-in reader software (i.e. browser). It is possible to share these files, but there's a lot of tags and such built into them to make it difficult.
PDFs on the other hand, can be shared with anyone. And, if done correctly, you can imprint the purchaser's information into a watermark on the file, meaning you could track back piracy to its source.
Not only that, but there is at least one documented instance of an ebook seller removing files from customer's e-readers. I believe there was a legal issue with the ebook in question, and that they did refund the purchase price, but that's still a scary precedent. |
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Dark Wizard
Senior Scribe
USA
830 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jul 2012 : 05:07:23
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That's the funny thing about WotC, despite technically being ahead of the curve with DDI and all those goodies, they seem to be behind everyone else when it comes to basic PDFs offerings accessible to the casual customer. They have an extensive library (even if only considering 3e, let alone 1e & 2e).
Meanwhile Paizo has PDFs of everything, and free PDFs included with a print subscription to their product lines. Other companies do as well. For sites like OneBookShelf (RPGNow & DriveThruRPG) digital is their bread and butter. |
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3.5e Rulebook Reprints News
