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Darkmeer
Senior Scribe
USA
505 Posts |
 Posted - 26 Jun 2012 : 15:49:15
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Markustay,
I really hope you are right. But after the great culling of the pdf's a couple years ago, I have less faith in this. I truly, truly hope you are right. I'd love to get my hands on a couple of the books that went out of print waaaay too fast (Spell Compendium, Rules Compendium), but that's really all I had an interest in, I own virtually everything else.
Now, IF we get some 2e campaign material I will go broke. I own ALL of the 2e rulebooks. I want campaigns and campaign books (since I can't buy the pdf's anymore).
/d |
"These people are my family, not just friends, and if you want to get to them you gotta go through ME." |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jun 2012 : 17:28:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Darkmeer
Markustay,
I really hope you are right. But after the great culling of the pdf's a couple years ago, I have less faith in this. I truly, truly hope you are right. I'd love to get my hands on a couple of the books that went out of print waaaay too fast (Spell Compendium, Rules Compendium), but that's really all I had an interest in, I own virtually everything else.
Now, IF we get some 2e campaign material I will go broke. I own ALL of the 2e rulebooks. I want campaigns and campaign books (since I can't buy the pdf's anymore).
/d
Darkmeer,
The culling of the PDFs only tells me that they have been considering this for a period of time already. They would be committing financial suicide if they offered many things for free that they could re-print for profit.
I forecast them doing this...and I'm sticking by what I said: if they simply release a rules set every year or so, then publish some "classic" items from those sets afterwards in a slow trickle it will help everyone. They get dollars and re-earn some customer loyalty, and we the fans get the products we want to buy without having to always resort to the chaos of theused items bin on Ebay. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36878 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jun 2012 : 20:19:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
quote:
Originally posted by Darkmeer
Markustay,
I really hope you are right. But after the great culling of the pdf's a couple years ago, I have less faith in this. I truly, truly hope you are right. I'd love to get my hands on a couple of the books that went out of print waaaay too fast (Spell Compendium, Rules Compendium), but that's really all I had an interest in, I own virtually everything else.
Now, IF we get some 2e campaign material I will go broke. I own ALL of the 2e rulebooks. I want campaigns and campaign books (since I can't buy the pdf's anymore).
/d
Darkmeer,
The culling of the PDFs only tells me that they have been considering this for a period of time already. They would be committing financial suicide if they offered many things for free that they could re-print for profit.
I'm not as convinced... Recall that they pulled the for-pay pdfs, too, and that they did this three or four years ago, with a since-forgotten promise that we'd get that stuff back later.
That's three years of revenue that they didn't need to do anything to get, and yet they shut down those sales because some people pirated what was then the hot new release.
Not trying to bash WotC, but I've not seen much to indicate they plan much further than a year out. |
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 26 Jun 2012 20:21:51 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jun 2012 : 02:02:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
The culling of the PDFs only tells me that they have been considering this for a period of time already.
I'm not so sure of that.
Besides, at the time those PDFs were pulled, Wizards' did state that they fully intended to revisit the option on making them available again, in other ways, at a later date. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Darkmeer
Senior Scribe
USA
505 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jun 2012 : 05:30:34
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
The culling of the PDFs only tells me that they have been considering this for a period of time already.
I'm not so sure of that.
Besides, at the time those PDFs were pulled, Wizards' did state that they fully intended to revisit the option on making them available again, in other ways, at a later date.
I really don't believe that they are going to revisit PDF material. It makes me sad to see that, too. I really like the pdf option, especially since... many other companies... offer their core and expansion books on pdf. I find it especially handy for myself. I've had five to eight books open at once, and I like to cross-reference them. No longer do I have to sit in the middle of the floor and write my adventures! I used to do things that way, and it was efficient, but the pdf's have made that significantly faster. |
"These people are my family, not just friends, and if you want to get to them you gotta go through ME." |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jun 2012 : 06:08:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Darkmeer
I really don't believe that they are going to revisit PDF material.
A few months ago, I would've allowed the scepticism in me to agree with you.
Not so much today. With recent news about the reprinting of 1e rulebooks, and now, with 3e reprints coming as well, I'm more inclined to assume Wizards' have broken, however slightly, from their more traditional publishing strategies, and exploring new ways to expand their consumer base.
Which, as I see it, might suggest a possible revisiting of core/crucial 2e sources as well. Perhaps as PDFs, or through print. [Though, I suspect the PDF option will be more likely.] |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3248 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jun 2012 : 18:00:43
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| I would love to see them re-release old books in nice, clean, OCR'd PDFs. I still have a good portion of the old books, I'd like to get official electronic copies. |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jun 2012 : 22:14:05
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
The culling of the PDFs only tells me that they have been considering this for a period of time already.
I'm not so sure of that.
Besides, at the time those PDFs were pulled, Wizards' did state that they fully intended to revisit the option on making them available again, in other ways, at a later date.
We will indeed get to see the material again...for a fee.
I'm going to stand by my hunch and say that they had intended to re-format how the PDFs were made available and how to market them properly. This may have fell by the wayside, but it is very much in line with them now picking it back up and starting the process again that they were then considering.
After all, this would qualify as "...again, in other ways, at a later date." wouldn't it?  |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36878 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jun 2012 : 23:03:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
The culling of the PDFs only tells me that they have been considering this for a period of time already.
I'm not so sure of that.
Besides, at the time those PDFs were pulled, Wizards' did state that they fully intended to revisit the option on making them available again, in other ways, at a later date.
We will indeed get to see the material again...for a fee.
I'm going to stand by my hunch and say that they had intended to re-format how the PDFs were made available and how to market them properly. This may have fell by the wayside, but it is very much in line with them now picking it back up and starting the process again that they were then considering.
After all, this would qualify as "...again, in other ways, at a later date." wouldn't it?
Actually, the pdfs in question were being sold thru other providers -- and they were most definitely not free. So they were making money off of them, there was a market in place, and the grunt work of hosting the files and handling the transactions was all done by someone else.
I bought many pdfs thru Paizo, in part because of unlimited downloads -- a promise that WotC's knee-jerk reaction caused them to break. Some pdfs were OCR'ed, some were not.
I have all of the files in multiple places, including on a thumb drive in me pocket.  |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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althen artren
Senior Scribe
USA
780 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jun 2012 : 00:26:44
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jun 2012 : 02:16:16
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quote:
Originally posted by althen artren
Has anybody been the skeptic and said it was purely a money grab?
I don't think anyone can argue against the fact that money was partly involved in Wizards' decision to pull the free legally available PDFs from their site.
But I don't think it was the only reason. This was occurring at a time when Wizards' were also pulling back the licensing for other product lines then previously held by other publishers -- like DRAGONLANCE with Sovereign Press and RAVENLOFT with White Wolf.
To me, at least, it seemed more like Wizards' were consolidating themselves and their various IP, before they moved into the era of digital-distribution with DDI. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Old Man Harpell
Senior Scribe
USA
497 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jun 2012 : 14:30:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Therise
Just occurred to me... didn't they offer fancy leather-bound 3.5 core books 5-6 years ago?
They did, indeed. I bought the leatherbound Player's Handbook for my son for his birthday a few years back, and I remember debating at purchase time whether I should get one for myself. I told myself I could always get one later, and naturally, I never did. I'm still kicking myself for that.
- OMH |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36878 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jun 2012 : 17:05:30
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quote:
Originally posted by althen artren
Has anybody been the skeptic and said it was purely a money grab?
I'm inclined to skepticism, with WotC... But if it was a money grab, it was a very ineffective one: they cancelled a source of revenue, and replaced it with nothing at all.
Besides, as I said, they had a business model that was pure income for them: someone else handled hosting the files, distributing the files, and managing the sales -- all on products that were no longer physically produced, and would otherwise generate no income at all.
I think it was an over-reaction to the pirating of 4E material on its release date. There was no logical correlation between legal sales of OOP products and the illegal pirating of a new product line, but the latter was cited as the reason for the former. It was a knee-jerk reaction.
They may have had other plans for pdf distribution at the time, but I'm inclined to think those plans were nebulous and didn't even have a planned date of implementation -- something like, "Hey, let's replace pdf sales with something we control... Sometime. Eventually. Once we figure out how to control it. And implement it. And the pricepoint." |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 29 Jun 2012 17:06:33 |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jun 2012 : 00:48:39
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I think their original intent was to pay nobody else to sell their material for them...then something fell through with their idea.
Now they are getting it back on track. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jun 2012 : 01:44:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
I think their original intent was to pay nobody else to sell their material for them...then something fell through with their idea.
Now they are getting it back on track.
Actually, I've discussed this with some of my legalese friends who are more accustomed to dealing with this sort of stuff, and they've suggested that it's more likely that exploitation of older laws regarding public distribution compared to the largely unknown and unexplored territory of for-profit electronic distribution law, was probably to blame for this. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36878 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jun 2012 : 05:38:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
I think their original intent was to pay nobody else to sell their material for them...then something fell through with their idea.
Now they are getting it back on track.
Yeah, but WotC didn't have to pay anyone else to sell that material... All they had to do was license it, and say "you keep 30% and give us 70%" or something similar. Yes, they could have set up something where they'd keep all of the money, but then they'd have to pay for the hosting of the files and manage the collection of money and all that. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jun 2012 : 08:59:36
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
I think their original intent was to pay nobody else to sell their material for them...then something fell through with their idea.
Now they are getting it back on track.
Actually, I've discussed this with some of my legalese friends who are more accustomed to dealing with this sort of stuff, and they've suggested that it's more likely that exploitation of older laws regarding public distribution compared to the largely unknown and unexplored territory of for-profit electronic distribution law, was probably to blame for this.
"Why didn't *I* think of that!?"
I really didn't consider that part...all I was thinking was that for them to allow others to distribute their product and keep a part of the profit could have been seen as a roadblock to their "plot" to take all the loot and run with it the way they wanted.
I'm just very happy to see them starting a re-print trend...and I hope it sticks. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jun 2012 : 09:41:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
I think their original intent was to pay nobody else to sell their material for them...then something fell through with their idea.
Now they are getting it back on track.
Actually, I've discussed this with some of my legalese friends who are more accustomed to dealing with this sort of stuff, and they've suggested that it's more likely that exploitation of older laws regarding public distribution compared to the largely unknown and unexplored territory of for-profit electronic distribution law, was probably to blame for this.
"Why didn't *I* think of that!?"
I really didn't consider that part...all I was thinking was that for them to allow others to distribute their product and keep a part of the profit could have been seen as a roadblock to their "plot" to take all the loot and run with it the way they wanted.
I'm just very happy to see them starting a re-print trend...and I hope it sticks.
I could very well be wrong, of course, however unlikely an occurrence that may actually be for me. *wink*
But I do chat with these folks regularly -- our most routine topic of conversation being the "e-book distribution issue between the US and consumers overseas" that's foremost on my mind at the moment -- and they're always telling me that this really is a perfect example of the technology progressing so far ahead of the law, that the whole print versus electronic publishing conflict will probably still need years of legal-work to be properly sorted out. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
Edited by - The Sage on 30 Jun 2012 09:42:46 |
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Dark Wizard
Senior Scribe
USA
830 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jul 2012 : 23:33:34
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I clicked through their survey of asking else from the 3.5e era they should reprint. I picked what I liked or couldn't find a reasonably priced copy of.
The additional comments at the end was where I had some fun. I suggested they reprint the 3e era Forgotten Realms setting books.
- FRCS merged with the PGtF mechanics, include any web enhancements, relevant web articles, and errata.
- Silver Marches: Updated to 3.5e, errata'ed, with web enhancements and relevant web articles now in a hardcover (was softcover in 3e).
And so on and so forth, especially for the early 3e era FR books in softcover.
As for "Why this reprint now?" That's an easy one to answer, in my opinion.
The 1E reprints were to help fund the Gygax memorial, but they also directly target one of the current major trends in D&D-style gaming, the OSR (Old School Renaissance) movement [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dungeons_%26_Dragons_simulacrums]. It's one way to tap into that old school (or nostalgia or grognard) market and in a way remind everyone where all that old school gaming originated.
The 3.5E reprints attempt to take aim at another beast, 3.5e and Pathfinder, probably more pressing for WotC's current concerns (4e and soon to be D&D Next). It seems 4E and even D&D Next haven't gained and aren't gaining the traction WotC would like in a field where they were once nearly peerless. They need to retake the momentum as the premier fantasy tabletop RPG bar none. The 3.5E reprints may be a part of some strategy they're trying.
The following link shows a segment of google search entries relating to the various editions of D&D and Pathfinder.
http://www.awesomedice.com/blog/284/google-statistics-dd-vs-pathfinder/
By itself, this data could be dubious, but we also have some other reports that Pathfinder outsells D&D in recent months.
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3811 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jul 2012 : 23:50:20
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What I don't understand is the reason that leads WotC to think that 3.5e rules reprints will sell nicely.
Despite 3.5e superior popularity (according to the data linked by Dark Wizard, that is), I guess that most people don't wish to pay for what they can get for free on the web. And for the physical books, they have Pathfinder (which is 3.5e tweaked and expanded), which provides them something that WotC doesn't: support.
Reprinting older FR books (or making them print on demand, or selling pdf), on the other hand... |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 01 Jul 2012 23:51:40 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jul 2012 : 00:16:48
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| I'm guessing that WotC still has copies of all their "original" pdfs and datafiles for 3.5E material ... so it costs them next to nothing in terms of editing and updating the content, just change the page one credits/copyrights and design a new cover and email to the printhouse as always ... ie: this is a "some revenue for zero cost" experiment. The purpose might be to feel out the "old" D&D markets for eBooks. If judged successful (profitable) then more will surely come. While if judged unsuccessful (not enough people place orders) then they might even cancel, refund, and abort the concept. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3811 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jul 2012 : 00:24:43
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| Ah, I see. Thank you. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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Hawkins
Great Reader
USA
2131 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jul 2012 : 01:33:20
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| In this blog the writer found some interesting Google statistics for 3.5/4e/Pathfinder. Got the link in the Kobold Quarterly newsletter. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36878 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jul 2012 : 04:20:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Hawkins
In this blog the writer found some interesting Google statistics for 3.5/4e/Pathfinder. Got the link in the Kobold Quarterly newsletter.
I was just reading that a few minutes ago... I'm rather surprised by that data. While I suspected that 4E didn't have the impact it was expected to have, I didn't think the difference between editions would be that noteworthy. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4460 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jul 2012 : 10:49:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Hawkins
In this blog the writer found some interesting Google statistics for 3.5/4e/Pathfinder. Got the link in the Kobold Quarterly newsletter.
So the data shows us that people googled 3E than 4E, I don't see that as any validation for the Edition wars.
- 3E is out of print and thus, any chance to get information would more likely be Googled or searched online than referenced from a book by any given person. I myself Google 3E stuff all the time because I might be doing something when I'm away from the books and the amount of content online for 3E is staggering. If you need any feat from 3E (which includeds 3PP stuff) then a Google will probably find you the information.
- 4E is still in print and with DDI, more people aren't going to google stuff when the Compendium, Character Builder, and Adventure Builder are all right there witin easy access. Sure, there are a lot of people that might not have DDI accounts but I believe that it's a minority rather than a majority. If anyone is going to Google 4E stuff, it's probably for 3PP or homebrew content which is definitly not as robust as 3E has become.
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Diffan's NPG Generator: FR NPC Generator |
Edited by - Diffan on 02 Jul 2012 10:50:49 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36878 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jul 2012 : 11:49:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
quote:
Originally posted by Hawkins
In this blog the writer found some interesting Google statistics for 3.5/4e/Pathfinder. Got the link in the Kobold Quarterly newsletter.
So the data shows us that people googled 3E than 4E, I don't see that as any validation for the Edition wars.
- 3E is out of print and thus, any chance to get information would more likely be Googled or searched online than referenced from a book by any given person. I myself Google 3E stuff all the time because I might be doing something when I'm away from the books and the amount of content online for 3E is staggering. If you need any feat from 3E (which includeds 3PP stuff) then a Google will probably find you the information.
- 4E is still in print and with DDI, more people aren't going to google stuff when the Compendium, Character Builder, and Adventure Builder are all right there witin easy access. Sure, there are a lot of people that might not have DDI accounts but I believe that it's a minority rather than a majority. If anyone is going to Google 4E stuff, it's probably for 3PP or homebrew content which is definitly not as robust as 3E has become.
1E and 2E are also out of print, but they don't have nearly the traffic. And the stats also show that searches for 3.5 have consistently remained higher than searches for 4.0, except when the latter was released -- and well before all the 4E stuff was online.
It's not definitive, but it certainly is reflective of an overall trend -- like Pathfinder outselling D&D. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4460 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jul 2012 : 12:30:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
1E and 2E are also out of print, but they don't have nearly the traffic. And the stats also show that searches for 3.5 have consistently remained higher than searches for 4.0, except when the latter was released -- and well before all the 4E stuff was online.
It's not definitive, but it certainly is reflective of an overall trend -- like Pathfinder outselling D&D.
How much fan content is there for 2E? How much information from the books is re-posted online from 2E? I'm not doubting that v3.5 was popular, but it's also extreamly expansive in the loose information online. Google any Prestige Class or Feat or Magical weapon and somewhere, some place you'll be able to get the verbatim information regardless if it's OGL or not. Now try the same with 4E......you'll not find too much. And given that this only indicates what's searched, I don't see how anyone can draw ties to this and overall sales. |
Diffan's NPG Generator: FR NPC Generator |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36878 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jul 2012 : 16:11:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
1E and 2E are also out of print, but they don't have nearly the traffic. And the stats also show that searches for 3.5 have consistently remained higher than searches for 4.0, except when the latter was released -- and well before all the 4E stuff was online.
It's not definitive, but it certainly is reflective of an overall trend -- like Pathfinder outselling D&D.
How much fan content is there for 2E? How much information from the books is re-posted online from 2E? I'm not doubting that v3.5 was popular, but it's also extreamly expansive in the loose information online. Google any Prestige Class or Feat or Magical weapon and somewhere, some place you'll be able to get the verbatim information regardless if it's OGL or not. Now try the same with 4E......you'll not find too much. And given that this only indicates what's searched, I don't see how anyone can draw ties to this and overall sales.
No one said this is indicative of sales.
And so far as I know, pretty much everything from 2E is online. The numbers show that people aren't looking for that, though.
What the numbers do show is that with a ruleset that's only 4 years old, there are more people searching for its predecessor or the revamp of that predecessor, and not for the current ruleset itself. When you put this together with the facts that this 4 year old ruleset is being replaced, that it's being outsold by the revamp of the prior ruleset, and that the company that used to dominate the RPG market is no longer on top, all that is indicative of a general trend.
This is not bashing 4E. This is looking at a bunch of data and reaching a conclusion. |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4460 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jul 2012 : 17:42:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
No one said this is indicative of sales.
Yet you said "It's not definitive, but it certainly is reflective of an overall trend -- like Pathfinder outselling D&D." I don't infer that from this data. Really, the data only tells us what's searched and tags associated with it. That's about it. I don't see anything reflected in one outselling another other than the conicidence that Pathfinder currently sells more than D&D in stores.
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
What the numbers do show is that with a ruleset that's only 4 years old, there are more people searching for its predecessor or the revamp of that predecessor, and not for the current ruleset itself. When you put this together with the facts that this 4 year old ruleset is being replaced, that it's being outsold by the revamp of the prior ruleset, and that the company that used to dominate the RPG market is no longer on top, all that is indicative of a general trend.
Yet it's not. Just today I googled 4 different spells for 3.5 for a character I'm making. Thats 4 separate searches for their Google's data. Compare that to when I make a 4E character and everything is on 1 database (D&D Compendium). No searches needed. The data doesn't show sales, the data doesn't say more people play one vs. the other, and the data doesn't shed any light on the so called "Edition Wars".
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
This is not bashing 4E. This is looking at a bunch of data and reaching a conclusion.
No one is claiming any bashing is going on, however, I think the conclusion is steeped in conjecture, assumption, and coincidence rather than taking the facts as they are more people google 3.5 than 4E. |
Diffan's NPG Generator: FR NPC Generator |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36878 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jul 2012 : 18:12:03
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quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
No one said this is indicative of sales.
Yet you said "It's not definitive, but it certainly is reflective of an overall trend -- like Pathfinder outselling D&D." I don't infer that from this data. Really, the data only tells us what's searched and tags associated with it. That's about it. I don't see anything reflected in one outselling another other than the conicidence that Pathfinder currently sells more than D&D in stores.
Pathfinder outselling D&D is a separate fact. I said this data reflected the same trend. The trend is that 4E is not as popular, and this data reflects this, as does sales and the fact that 4E is already being scrapped. I wasn't drawing sales data from search data, I was putting search data together with other data.
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
What the numbers do show is that with a ruleset that's only 4 years old, there are more people searching for its predecessor or the revamp of that predecessor, and not for the current ruleset itself. When you put this together with the facts that this 4 year old ruleset is being replaced, that it's being outsold by the revamp of the prior ruleset, and that the company that used to dominate the RPG market is no longer on top, all that is indicative of a general trend.
Yet it's not. Just today I googled 4 different spells for 3.5 for a character I'm making. Thats 4 separate searches for their Google's data. Compare that to when I make a 4E character and everything is on 1 database (D&D Compendium). No searches needed. The data doesn't show sales, the data doesn't say more people play one vs. the other, and the data doesn't shed any light on the so called "Edition Wars".
Okay, goodie, you can build a character without hitting Google. And does that mean that there is nothing else 4E-related that people might want to look up? Becuase what I'm reading in your statement is that errata, source material, fan material, products and reviews of those products, optimal builds, customer character sheets, everything imaginable for 4E can be found on the Compendium, and that there is no possible need to ever search for anything else.
And maybe it's just me, but I think that sales is a pretty good indicator of the number of people playing -- unless there are a lot of people sharing rulebooks.
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
This is not bashing 4E. This is looking at a bunch of data and reaching a conclusion.
No one is claiming any bashing is going on, however, I think the conclusion is steeped in conjecture, assumption, and coincidence rather than taking the facts as they are more people google 3.5 than 4E.
So it's conjecture to think that sales data, search data, and the advent of a new ruleset could possibly be indicative of something? |
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