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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
 Posted - 19 May 2012 : 04:53:34
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Okay. I know it sounds weird. I'm helping a friend who's asked to write a short story (using that pre-selected title) for an anthology. And I'm not really in the mood for fantasy right now...So any suggestions are welcome.
Think of Szass Tam or Sammaster. [Not Larloch. He's too powerful.] How would you plan killing him in 10 days? And who would you involve in the planning and execution?
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Every beginning has an end. |
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sfdragon
Great Reader
2285 Posts |
Posted - 19 May 2012 : 05:04:30
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| Smmaster was dead and gone already or so I thought. and Szass Tamm is also too powerful. planning to kill him in 10 days would require several powerful and already epic level npcs..... |
why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power
My FR fan fiction
Magister's GAmbit
http://steelfiredragon.deviantart.com/gallery/33539234 |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 19 May 2012 : 05:10:39
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Dyrr and Aumvor are "ubers" as well. So maybe Wulgreth? I know he's dead, but just, for the sake of an example, assume he's not, and think and share some ways (other than Galaeron & Co's) to kill him. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Lady Shadowflame
Learned Scribe
115 Posts |
Posted - 19 May 2012 : 15:10:00
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Move somebody in with him he can't kill, for whatever reason, and have them irritate him into self-destruction? |
Save a lizard... Ride a drow.
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Edited by - Lady Shadowflame on 19 May 2012 15:10:43 |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 19 May 2012 : 18:04:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Lady Shadowflame
Move somebody in with him he can't kill, for whatever reason, and have them irritate him into self-destruction?
Ah, the Kas and Vecna plan. 
To answer the OP, the key is research. Knowing the lich's lair, his movements, his phylactery's hiding place. It's tough, but doable.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3811 Posts |
Posted - 19 May 2012 : 18:09:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
quote:
Originally posted by Lady Shadowflame
Move somebody in with him he can't kill, for whatever reason, and have them irritate him into self-destruction?
Ah, the Kas and Vecna plan.
To answer the OP, the key is research. Knowing the lich's lair, his movements, his phylactery's hiding place. It's tough, but doable.
Cheers
Wouldn't many liches hide their phylactery in some secret personal demi-plane, surrounded by so many traps that would kill anyone who even dared to think to destroy it?
In which case, how could you track the phylactery hiding place? Maybe a reveal location spell, but I think that a phylactery, holding the soul of the lich, would have a good chance to resist even such a powerful spell. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 19 May 2012 18:13:40 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 19 May 2012 : 18:50:48
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The phylactery must be accessible enough that the lich's disembodied essence can return to it. The lich must then have a means to transfer himself out of the phylactery, preferably into a fresh new host corpse or whatever ... so it's unwise to store the phylactery in some impossibly isolated or remote location.
I haven't seen any specific hard rules stating the maximum effective "range" of the phylactery (and thus the lich's regeneration, should his current body die) - but it seems like every lich always has his phylactery somewhere within a fairly close proximity, invariably somewhere within his lair. I suppose it's possible that (when not imprisoned within the phylactery) the lich may have no way to sense anything around his phylactery, nor to take any immediate action against any attempts to control/destroy it. Van Richten's writings speculate a little on this detail. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Aulduron
Learned Scribe
USA
343 Posts |
Posted - 19 May 2012 : 18:58:38
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| You should have to research your own find phylactery spell, possibly using some part of the lich as a material component. This spell should only work for that particular lich. |
"Those with talent become wizards, Those without talent spend their lives praying for it"
-Procopio Septus |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3811 Posts |
Posted - 19 May 2012 : 19:03:08
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quote:
The phylactery must be accessible enough that the lich's disembodied essence can return to it. The lich must then have a means to transfer himself out of the phylactery, preferably into a fresh new host corpse or whatever ... so it's unwise to store the phylactery in some impossibly isolated or remote location.
I haven't seen any specific hard rules stating the maximum effective "range" of the phylactery (and thus the lich's regeneration, should his current body die) - but it seems like every lich always has his phylactery somewhere within a fairly close proximity, invariably somewhere within his lair. I suppose it's possible that (when not imprisoned within the phylactery) the lich may have no way to sense anything around his phylactery, nor to take any immediate action against any attempts to control/destroy it. Van Richten's writings speculate a little on this detail.
Hm, I could imagine a lich having his phylactery in some demi-plane and surrounded by ''hosts'' (I doubt that such a place would be populated by bacteria, so decomposition shouldn't be a problem). Unless his disembodied essence wasn't able to travel through planes.
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Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 19 May 2012 19:04:16 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 19 May 2012 : 20:15:42
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| I would judge that the phylactery would need to be located on the same physical world, plane, dimension, or sphere as the lich's (presumably disembodied) soul. I mean, can a soul cast gate or teleport or activate a dimensional portal or be a stowaway on a spelljamming vessel? Perhaps it cannot move very far or very fast, even ghosts (most of whom technically exist in the Ethereal) are often very limited in their range of movement. And would the lich-soul definitely be able to reach its destination (the remote phylactery) within 1d10 days? Is it subject to detection and vulnerable to attack in this state, at risk of being forever destroyed until able to reincorporate? |
[/Ayrik] |
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_Jarlaxle_
Senior Scribe
Germany
584 Posts |
Posted - 19 May 2012 : 20:20:10
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So how does a soul travel to the fuge plan than when you die in the material world?  |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3811 Posts |
Posted - 19 May 2012 : 20:24:47
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| The ''Genesis'' spell creates a demi-plane in the Ethereal, where (-AFAIK-) the lich's soul would be after the destruction of its body. That's why I suggested it. However, the limited speed and the vulnerability of this form make a good point for having the phylactery near the lair. Even though, to be honest, I thought that the soul was sucked into the phylactery after a lich's death. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 20 May 2012 01:49:28 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 19 May 2012 : 21:07:38
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Well, in the Realms, the souls of the dead apparently arrive on the Fugue Plane almost immediately after their death, then they wait around for up to 10 days before meeting their final fate. I suspect these souls have no real choice in the matter, they are powerless to delay or change their arrival on the Fugue. There are of course souls anchored to phylacteries and amulets, resurrected, raised, or otherwise recalled, or simply denied a true death (because an undying need for justice or vengeance turns them into revenants, or whatever) who exist outside the standard Fugue system.
To be honest, there's not a lot of information about this, outside of details from novels and such. It seems that character death is a bit of a distasteful topic and theological discourse about the final disposition of heroic souls is something Wizbro won't go near without a 10-foot pole (a piece of equipment which, incidentally, can no longer be purchased as of 4E).
Now, there's an interesting idea ... hiding phylacteries somewhere on the Fugue Plane. I suppose the lich would need to make some very special arrangements (preferably before he dies!) with the Faerûnian God of the Dead du jour. I'd guess most liches (like many living archmages) disdain the gods and would avoid ever allowing themselves to be placed at the mercy of a divine power. Imagine the fate of a lich whose phylactery is found by one of the baatezu fiends who constantly scour the Fugue for souls and power they can take to their infernal planes. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Sightless
Senior Scribe
USA
608 Posts |
Posted - 19 May 2012 : 21:14:27
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Readers note: this is based on the work of Andrew Keedings, whose concept of Litchdom has heavily influenced D & D. I mention it, as much of it should answer the questions mentioned, and may help to solve the initial question as well.
In the process of laying done the speels and rituals necessary in the cration of the state of near death, typically called undeath, one constructs an object that will serve as the receptacle of the soul at the points when a host form is no longer capable to be found. This items must be kept with in three days flight, as the crow flies from the point of the host, as being further opens up the Litch’s spirit open for attack by those trained in perceiving spirits, or by angry ghosts that the Litch’s spirit might encounter. The receptacle shall call to the litch’s spirit bringing it into itself, and thus keeping it from traveling through the great tunnel and onto the plain of judgement. It is by leaving those elements of the self behind in creating the receptacle that this is possible, and thus disrupting the natural order of the universe.
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We choose to live a lie, when we see with, & not through the eye.
Every decision, no matter the evidence, is a leap of faith; if it were not, then it wouldn't be a choice at all. |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3746 Posts |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 20 May 2012 : 02:12:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
quote:
Originally posted by Lady Shadowflame
Move somebody in with him he can't kill, for whatever reason, and have them irritate him into self-destruction?
Ah, the Kas and Vecna plan.
To answer the OP, the key is research. Knowing the lich's lair, his movements, his phylactery's hiding place. It's tough, but doable.
Cheers
The lich lives in a castle like a 'normal' live king. Very few people know he's an undead. He personally selects his servants, from butler down to cooks, which makes it nigh impossible to insert a spy or two in the staff...
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
Wouldn't many liches hide their phylactery in some secret personal demi-plane, surrounded by so many traps that would kill anyone who even dared to think to destroy it?
My friend intends the soul gem (phyllactery) to be hidden in an alternate reality (plane, in D&d terms). I suggested to have a Journeyman (time-traveler) try to search for it, exploring all time streams...
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
-Destroy it's phylactery. Simple. 
No, it's not. A lich who doesn't protect his phyllactery is either an idiot or a suicidal moron. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 20 May 2012 : 02:49:25
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As with any war, you would need to concern yourself with far more than merely the major hostilities. You would also have to put serious thought and planning into the next phase, such as occupation of conquered/freed lands.
It would behoove you immensely to locate the lich's phylactery before you kill him. Don't wait until he's dead and the 10-day countdown has begun to start your search. You risk him coming back, pissed off worse than ever! And I imagine that fighting an angry lich must not be very conducive to tracking down hidden phylacteries! |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4213 Posts |
Posted - 20 May 2012 : 02:58:46
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I prefer placing the Lich in Temporal Stasis, then finding its Phylactery at my own pace.
Once found, destroy the Phylactery and see to the end of the Lich. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Thauranil
Master of Realmslore
India
1591 Posts |
Posted - 21 May 2012 : 12:28:14
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| Cast Gift of Life on the lich. it will bring him back to life and sever his connection to his phylactery and if you still want to kill him or her then it should be easy enough. After all being brought forcibly back to life after hundreds of years of undeath might be enough on its own to drive a person completely insane. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 21 May 2012 : 12:49:35
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All of these suggestions hinge around casting spells, highest-level spells, or otherwise employing magic against the lich.
A lich starts off, while alive, as a powerful archmage - to be anything less doesn't even meet the requirements for becoming a lich. That means he's already done the adventuring, accumulated the powerful trinkets, made allies and enemies, made spells and items and constructs, done all the same sorts of stuff your uppity little adventuring archmage has done. Then there's years, decades, centuries, millennia, spent on magical research and development. A lich might possess a dozen magical amulets which each took a dozen human lifetimes to craft, for all you know the entry foyer to a lich's lair is protected by Vecna's doorbell or a mythal or some other potent artifact lost beyond legend.
Hoping that you could better and defeat a lich through superior mastery of magic seems futile. Unless you happen to be a being of comparable magical might, like a dragon or another lich. Little epic-level adventuring mage upstarts are probably hugely outclassed. It's like hoping to win a fistfight against a battleship, and you'd lose no matter how epic your sword and suit of armor might be. In fact, the more metal you wear, the quicker you'll be targeted and slain by some kind of radar-homing missile.
Therefore, defeating the lich is probably best served by attacking its non-magical vulnerabilities. Applied force, stealth, deception, theft, betrayal. Knowledge of the lich's vulnerability, its Achilles Heel. Blindly stumbling into a lich's lair and depending on blasting everything in sight with magic, killing the lich with magic, detecting and destroying the phylactery with magic ... haha, good luck with that, there are less painful ways to die. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Thauranil
Master of Realmslore
India
1591 Posts |
Posted - 21 May 2012 : 14:57:34
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| Though admittedly those must be few and far between. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 22 May 2012 : 04:00:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Therefore, defeating the lich is probably best served by attacking its non-magical vulnerabilities. Applied force, stealth, deception, theft, betrayal. Knowledge of the lich's vulnerability, its Achilles Heel.
My suggestion is along this line. When magic can be countered by magic, then it's time to ponder on the alternatives: spying and stealing, with very little to no using of magic at all. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4213 Posts |
Posted - 22 May 2012 : 04:28:40
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Ok...here is an idea for you:
Party walks into room...Lich is there.
Party fighter runs over to Lich and grabs it (sack of bones that it is) and pins its arms with his own.
Party fighter begins to take large amounts of damage from the freezing cold...but party takes off the Lich's limbs and head very quickly.
Lich is down.
Part spends the next ten days tearing apart walls, using Speak with dead on the remains of any dead people they find in the place (skeletons and zombies work good for this after they are crushed), and etc.
Party finds Lich's Phylactery after a couple days of methodical searching and questioning...and finally resorts to an Earth Elemental searching the grounds for them as well...Earth Elemental returns to wizard with Phylactery.
Party can:
A- instruct the elemental to take the phylactery back to the elemental plane of earth and crush it there beneath rocks of immense vastness.
B- take the Phylactery to a temple of a Good God and get help destroying it.
C- take the Phylactery to a powerful wizard and have them banish it to some outer plane of Goodness.
D- etc. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Xar Zarath
Senior Scribe
Malaysia
552 Posts |
Posted - 22 May 2012 : 06:19:33
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I think you need powerful magic to fight a lich who is compared to someone like Tam and Sammy. And lots of allies, probably some Maruts and Solars too for "good" measure.
Plus if you want to use Wulgreth, isn't he a demilich? |
Everything ends where it begins. Period.
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 22 May 2012 : 06:55:55
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I was referring to the Wulgreth before he made the Karstone his phylactery. And for the record, my friend is not going to use any FR characters. I only mentioned them as examples. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Xar Zarath
Senior Scribe
Malaysia
552 Posts |
Posted - 23 May 2012 : 05:44:36
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| Ah so he is going to create a lich for this anthology of his then? Well if that is the case he could just stat up the lich...if this is what he is going to do what edition is he using? |
Everything ends where it begins. Period.
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 23 May 2012 : 07:14:03
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None. It's not set in FR. Its his world entirely.
Thanks, fellow scribes, for all your suggestions. My dear friend told me he's just finished his first draft, which, hopefully, if my schedule allows, I could help edit today. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Xar Zarath
Senior Scribe
Malaysia
552 Posts |
Posted - 23 May 2012 : 13:37:29
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| Will it be a typical hero vs villain or will the story be more complex? |
Everything ends where it begins. Period.
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 23 May 2012 : 17:40:39
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Complex, but rather too open-ended for my taste. There's almost no closure for all the characters, except one (which, going by the title of this scroll, I suppose you already know who). I could hardly blame him, as it's a short story and he's restricted to 5,000 words only. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Eli the Tanner
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
149 Posts |
Posted - 23 May 2012 : 22:28:40
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This sounds quite an interesting project. Here's a few suggestions:
-Heist-type gambit (think Thomas Crown Affair) with multiple cons, double bluffs and inside marks conspiring to get the phylacetary.
-Playing the Lich into a situation where he inadvertently destroys his own phylacetary. Illusions of multiple phylacetaries or redirecting the Lich's attacks.
-Perhaps a whodunnit type story, where the character tracks the Lich's path to Lichdom and then has ten days to create a reverse-ritual to undo the magic that created him.
As stated by Erik above all these would require considerable research/preparation/skill on the protagonists part. But with a short story like this perhaps it could focus on the planning stage or half-way through their heist.
My personal favourite would be a Lich-eye perspective of the many failed attempts on his life, as the Lich explains, over the course of ten days, how all those had tried before fared....only to be killed due to his retelling of the stories (a la Hero). Perhaps the killer figures out the method by finding the one flaw in all the stories or maybe uses the lure of tales to get closer to the Lich (akin to Arabian Nights).
Van Richten's guide has a very good section on how one might defeating a Lich. I suggest checking it out. Sounds like a fun project. |
Moderator of /r/Forgotten_Realms |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 23 May 2012 : 23:12:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Eli the Tanner
My personal favourite would be a Lich-eye perspective of the many failed attempts on his life, as the Lich explains, over the course of ten days, how all those had tried before fared....
Sounds good. Only, the lich has to die in the story. My friend has no choice in the matter. So, no retelling on the lich's part. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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How To Kill a Lich in Ten Days
