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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3741 Posts |
 Posted - 27 Apr 2012 : 02:39:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
There's a difference between saying she had no role in it, and saying it's all her fault.
-I don't think anyone has said that the fault for the Fall of High Netheril rests solely in her hands. Her actions, coupled with Karsus' actions, achieved that.
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
Such as?
-Such as anything we can reasonably entertain that does not end her existence as she did. As is the case with "What if?" situations, the possibilities are broad (I wouldn't necessarily say endless, because so many of the details we don't know, but...).
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
Of course she had a role in it. But to assign blame to Mystryl when she was simply acting in the best interests of the rest of the Weave and the Realms, is also inaccurate.
-That someone is acting in their percieved best interests, correctly or incorrectly in reality, doesn't remove their part in an event. Mystryl, by doing what she believed was in the best interest to herself, the Weave, the world, and whatever else, bears as much blame for what ultimately happened as the genesis of the spell itself- without her acting as she did, would not have played out as they did (one could argue they'd be worse, and more devastating, but that is a separate argument). If a police officer pulls out his gun and shoots and kills somebody who is pulling out their own gun to shoot the cop, the cop is "at fault" for the death of the other person just like that persons actions are "at fault" for their own death. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
Edited by - Lord Karsus on 27 Apr 2012 02:43:49 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 27 Apr 2012 : 03:18:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
Such as?
-Such as anything we can reasonably entertain that does not end her existence as she did. As is the case with "What if?" situations, the possibilities are broad (I wouldn't necessarily say endless, because so many of the details we don't know, but...).
That's fair enough. But at the same time, the fact that a deity, who is conceivably more than just what the mortals of the Realms can be, saw no other alternative, suggests to me, that there simply might not have been any other option to consider.
quote:
-That someone is acting in their percieved best interests, correctly or incorrectly in reality, doesn't remove their part in an event.
I maintained that Mystryl had a role in it. That's not the issue.
quote:
Mystryl, by doing what she believed was in the best interest to herself, the Weave, the world, and whatever else, bears as much blame for what ultimately happened as the genesis of the spell itself- without her acting as she did, would not have played out as they did (one could argue they'd be worse, and more devastating, but that is a separate argument).
Again, this is assuming that there was an alternative to the option Mystryl enacted. And, again, as I said above, if a deity couldn't conceive of another alternative to bringing down a civilisation in order to save the entire scope of Realmspace, then why should we consider a mortal could succeed in fathoming an alternative?
I can't see how Mystryl can be wholly blamed for this event, when it might have been the only option available to her for an action caused by another. In this case, Karsus. I could only assign blame to Mystryl if she deliberately chose the more violent and disruptive of options -- the fall of Netheril and the collapse of the Weave -- from a breadth of divine contingency plans -- which may have included more stable/less-reality-disrupting methods -- for when mortals attempted to wrest power from gods. And we just don't know whether that was truly the case here. |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3741 Posts |
Posted - 27 Apr 2012 : 20:06:29
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
I can't see how Mystryl can be wholly blamed for this event...
-I don't think anyone is wholly blaming Mystryl's actions for the entirety of the what happened afterwards. It wasn't her fault alone. Blame lies with her, though, simply by being one of the two actors involved in the scenario, just like anything else. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 28 Apr 2012 : 02:00:02
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Ah.
The whole event really does need more Realmslore attention, I think. If only so we can know more of the particulars of just "how" the Mad-Power Grab of Karsus truly affected both Mystryl and the Weave. |
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Xar Zarath
Senior Scribe
Malaysia
552 Posts |
Posted - 28 Apr 2012 : 10:37:59
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| I voted Aumvor because where the rest of the Empire was looking outward towards the stars and beyond, he looked inward on the aspects on death and dying. He is a pioneer in the necromantic arts and is still very much so. I think in terms of sheer raw power as well as arcane necromantic knowledge he beats quite a few of the necromancers out there... |
Everything ends where it begins. Period.
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jordanz
Senior Scribe
556 Posts |
Posted - 28 Apr 2012 : 14:16:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Xar Zarath
I voted Aumvor because where the rest of the Empire was looking outward towards the stars and beyond, he looked inward on the aspects on death and dying. He is a pioneer in the necromantic arts and is still very much so. I think in terms of sheer raw power as well as arcane necromantic knowledge he beats quite a few of the necromancers out there...
True I wonder if he and Szass Tam ever kick it. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 29 Apr 2012 : 02:51:56
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
I'm curious. What would be a less disastrous alternative?
There are virtually thousands of them...Two that are obvious: teleport to a place where Karsus could not reach (which would have required the same amount of time she used in killing herself; besides, she got more than enough time to do just that, as Karsus was busy fighting the phaerimm that dared rise and stop him); or simply cut Karus (and he alone) off the Weave. If she could do that to greater deities, why not to a mere mortal?
We don't know anything of the intimate details of the relationship between Mystryl and the Weave, and by extension, the Realms. And the Grand Folly of Karsus created unprecedented levels of chaos and confusion about how that intimate relationship works.
I don't believe we can assume that rules we've seen applied elsewhere in similar scenarios, could have just as easily be applied in this situation.
Are you implying that Mystryl was the idiot version of Mystra/Midnight, who easily cut off a greater deity (Talos) from the Weave with mere thought? Talos might not be as skillful as Karsus in terms of using the Art, but surely severing his access to the Weave required more firepower than doing the same to a mere mortal.
And when she did that, the Weave was stable, she was the only one in control of it, and no one was trying to take her the entire reason she existed. Not the same situation as Karsus -- not even close.
Let's see...
[It only took Mystra mere seconds to cut Talos off the Weave.]
Karsus on his Avatar form was busy fighting the phaerimm who dared confront him...
The Weave was still on Mytryl's total control...
Mystryl had more than enough time to cut Karsus off the Weave... |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 29 Apr 2012 : 02:58:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
I can't see how Mystryl can be wholly blamed for this event...
-I don't think anyone is wholly blaming Mystryl's actions for the entirety of the what happened afterwards. It wasn't her fault alone. Blame lies with her, though, simply by being one of the two actors involved in the scenario, just like anything else.
Agreed. That's why I always use 'partly to blame.' Though the actors are not just two. If we examine it closely---the Netherese, the pherimm, Karsus, and Mystryl share the blame. The Netherese use magic so carelessly that it created magical storms that killed a number of phaerimm. In retaliation, the phaerimm cast the lifedrain. In the hope to rid of the phaerimm and their seemingly irreversible spell, Karsus tried to subsume Mystryl's divinity. And Mystryl...well, you know the rest of the story... |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 29 Apr 2012 : 03:01:36
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quote:
Originally posted by jordanz
quote:
Originally posted by Xar Zarath
I voted Aumvor because where the rest of the Empire was looking outward towards the stars and beyond, he looked inward on the aspects on death and dying. He is a pioneer in the necromantic arts and is still very much so. I think in terms of sheer raw power as well as arcane necromantic knowledge he beats quite a few of the necromancers out there...
True I wonder if he and Szass Tam ever kick it.
Aumvor is beyond Szass Tam, in the same way the latter is way beneath Larloch. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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jordanz
Senior Scribe
556 Posts |
Posted - 29 Apr 2012 : 04:09:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by jordanz
quote:
Originally posted by Xar Zarath
I voted Aumvor because where the rest of the Empire was looking outward towards the stars and beyond, he looked inward on the aspects on death and dying. He is a pioneer in the necromantic arts and is still very much so. I think in terms of sheer raw power as well as arcane necromantic knowledge he beats quite a few of the necromancers out there...
True I wonder if he and Szass Tam ever kick it.
Aumvor is beyond Szass Tam, in the same way the latter is way beneath Larloch.
Really I always saw them ar peers or rivals. Does Aumvor have feats that compare favorably to what Szass Tam displayed in Unholy?[ |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 29 Apr 2012 : 04:43:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Let's see...
[It only took Mystra mere seconds to cut Talos off the Weave.]
Karsus on his Avatar form was busy fighting the phaerimm who dared confront him...
The Weave was still on Mytryl's total control...
Mystryl had more than enough time to cut Karsus off the Weave...
Karsus was not fighting anyone, he was suffering from the magic that he couldn't control. And it's canon that Mystryl was not in total control of the Weave.
In fact:
quote:
When Mystryl lost her ability to maintain the Weave's integrity, Karsus was ill-equipped to serve in her stead. The Weave began to fluctuate wildle, and the lands of Netheril and beyond were inundated with a flood of raw magic which surged and ebbed with far greater power and destructive force than had ever been seen before.
Mystryl sacrificed herself to save the Weave before the damage became irreparable.
(page 35, Powers & Pantheons, the write-up on Karsus)
From that same page:
quote:
Karsus's heart broke as he realized that his greed for the power of the deities themselves had caused the destruction of his home, his family, his friends, and his people.
So Karsus was not fighting anyone, Mystryl was not in full control, and did not have time for anything else. That's all canon.
Unless you're going to provide canon references, with sources, that says otherwise, then I'm going to stick with published Realmslore, not opinion. |
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 29 Apr 2012 04:43:59 |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 29 Apr 2012 : 04:59:07
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I'm too lazy right now to pick up Dangerous Games and quote the right parts. But I reread the whole trilogy fairly recently, so the scenes are rather fresh in my mind. Karsus was fighting the phaerimm on air when he rose to challenge Mystryl. The time given by such distraction should have been more than enough for her to do the most obvious alternative: cut Karsus off the Weave. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 29 Apr 2012 : 05:10:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
I'm too lazy right now to pick up Dangerous Games and quote the right parts. But I reread the whole trilogy fairly recently, so the scenes are rather fresh in my mind. Karsus was fighting the phaerimm on air when he rose to challenge Mystryl. The time given by such distraction should have been more than enough for her to do the most obvious alternative: cut Karsus off the Weave.
How?
The quotes Wooly provided above clearly note that Mystryl had lost control of the integrity of the Weave thanks to the Mad-Power Grab of Karsus.
So cutting Karsus off from the Weave kind of seems a little difficult when she no longer has the once-intimate ability to tweak and tinker with it, as she once did.
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Xar Zarath
Senior Scribe
Malaysia
552 Posts |
Posted - 29 Apr 2012 : 10:58:15
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| I think in terms of Necromancy, Aumvor is without peer, though as Dennis has already pointed out, Aumvor is still a novice as compared to Larloch, this I attribute to the Nether Scrolls. |
Everything ends where it begins. Period.
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Eli the Tanner
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
149 Posts |
Posted - 29 Apr 2012 : 15:48:01
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
The quotes Wooly provided above clearly note that Mystryl had lost control of the integrity of the Weave thanks to the Mad-Power Grab of Karsus.
So cutting Karsus off from the Weave kind of seems a little difficult when she no longer has the once-intimate ability to tweak and tinker with it, as she once did.
I agree, once Karsus has cast his spell there is nothing Mystra could do to stop him anymore.
I'm curious about why she didn't know this would happen? and if she did why didn't she cut him off/stop him before he cast the spell? |
Moderator of /r/Forgotten_Realms |
Edited by - Eli the Tanner on 29 Apr 2012 15:49:18 |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 29 Apr 2012 : 16:11:15
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| There is no telling who could have been protecting Karsus' research from the eyes of Mystra. Shar may have been a strong influence at keeping this secret even from the Goddess of Magic...we know that later she was able to hide Cyric from Mystra in Mystra's own Realm; so apparently certain things can simply be done. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 29 Apr 2012 : 16:58:35
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| There is also the fact that the target of the spell was not a built-in feature of the spell. Karsus could have just as easily gone for Jergal or Moander. It was his arrogance that caused him to choose Mystryl. |
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 29 Apr 2012 16:58:59 |
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jordanz
Senior Scribe
556 Posts |
Posted - 29 Apr 2012 : 17:52:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Xar Zarath
I think in terms of Necromancy, Aumvor is without peer, though as Dennis has already pointed out, Aumvor is still a novice as compared to Larloch, this I attribute to the Nether Scrolls.
Not saying I doubt that but what has Aumvor done(besides being really ancient) to support your "without peer" claim? Otherwise I think Szass could take him. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 29 Apr 2012 : 18:05:57
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Deities are bound more so by their portfolios then anyone else.
Mystra's MAIN tenet is to further magic, and to help those who are trying to bring magic to new heights (regardless of alignment/intentions). Karsus was probably one of her 'favorites' (along with a few other Netherese I can think of).
Mystra cannot stop herself from allowing magical research - even if it means her doom - then Oghma could stop any research at all (see Prince of Lies), or Loviatar could try to show mercy and not harm someone when given the chance. Deities ARE their portfolios - when it comes to them, common sense is over-ridden. Their behavior is hard-wired; free-will is only available to them outside of their portfolios.
Case in point: Mystra loved The Simbul, and greatly dislike Red Wizards, yet was willing to destroy the Simbul to protect Red Wizards because they further magical research as a whole. Her own feelings in the matter were of no consequence when it came to upholding the tenets of her portfolio. Magic is to her what air is to us, and she cannot stop promoting it as much as we can voluntarily stop breathing. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Alisttair
Great Reader
Canada
3054 Posts |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 30 Apr 2012 : 01:19:29
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quote:
Originally posted by jordanz
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by jordanz
quote:
Originally posted by Xar Zarath
I voted Aumvor because where the rest of the Empire was looking outward towards the stars and beyond, he looked inward on the aspects on death and dying. He is a pioneer in the necromantic arts and is still very much so. I think in terms of sheer raw power as well as arcane necromantic knowledge he beats quite a few of the necromancers out there...
True I wonder if he and Szass Tam ever kick it.
Aumvor is beyond Szass Tam, in the same way the latter is way beneath Larloch.
Really I always saw them ar peers or rivals. Does Aumvor have feats that compare favorably to what Szass Tam displayed in Unholy?[
Aumvor's fragmented phylactery and Aumvor's soulshatter are first of their kind, and were never replicated. His long existence (far longer than Szass Tam) and vast knowledge on Netherese spellcraft are edge enough against Tam. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 30 Apr 2012 : 01:24:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
There is no telling who could have been protecting Karsus' research from the eyes of Mystra. Shar may have been a strong influence at keeping this secret even from the Goddess of Magic...we know that later she was able to hide Cyric from Mystra in Mystra's own Realm; so apparently certain things can simply be done.
If it was a deity the shielded Karsus from Mystra's attention, then that deity must be so confident that he/she would not be the target. Karsus didn't make it 'known' whose powers he'd siphon until near the last minute. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Xar Zarath
Senior Scribe
Malaysia
552 Posts |
Posted - 30 Apr 2012 : 07:05:15
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Maybe it was because a thought was implanted at the last moment he cast the Avatar spell. Some unknown force influenced him, since he was using magic, he should go straight to the source of it all. I mean from what we know, Karsus was a bit mental, not mad or insane but he had his mood swings and so on. It would not be hard to send a whiper on the wind with Mystryl's name being spoken. Karsus would probably just connected the dots on his own.
Of course if Karsus was affected, then who did it? Was this intentional? (Maybe WOTC will use this to bring some new horror into the Realms which will span books and worlds etc and usher in 5e?) |
Everything ends where it begins. Period.
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3741 Posts |
Posted - 30 Apr 2012 : 17:19:56
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quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
There is no telling who could have been protecting Karsus' research from the eyes of Mystra. Shar may have been a strong influence at keeping this secret even from the Goddess of Magic...we know that later she was able to hide Cyric from Mystra in Mystra's own Realm; so apparently certain things can simply be done.
-According to 3e retconny sources, Shar was the influence for Mystra to be the target in the first place, so she may have had a shadowy hand in keeping the spell's existence a secret. This, though, is in conflict with the notion that Mystra knows all spells, etc., etc.
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
The quotes Wooly provided above clearly note that Mystryl had lost control of the integrity of the Weave thanks to the Mad-Power Grab of Karsus.
So cutting Karsus off from the Weave kind of seems a little difficult when she no longer has the once-intimate ability to tweak and tinker with it, as she once did.
-Being unable to maintain the integrity of the Weave and prevent it from collapsing doesn't mean she did not retain one of her salient godly abilities to cut an individual off from the Weave. Far from a perfect analogy, but if I am having trouble keeping a network online, even as I am doing the coding and such to keep it activated, I still can regulate who can access it and who can't access it, to varying degrees.
-At the point where the connection was established and Karsus siphoning her power into himself, I don't necessarily know if she could have, as a matter of personal opinion, but...
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
There is also the fact that the target of the spell was not a built-in feature of the spell. Karsus could have just as easily gone for Jergal or Moander. It was his arrogance that caused him to choose Mystryl.
-Given that the Phaerimm were destroying Netheril through magic, the obvious choice would be the deity of magic; practicality moreso than arrogance seems to have influenced that decision (ignoring 3e sources that say that Shar subtly influenced the choice of targets). In theory, sure, any deity would have given him godly powers, and with those powers, he could have taken care of business (insomuch as any deity can commit wholesale genocide with the snap of a finger). With Jergal's power, maybe he could have snapped and made all Phaerimm die. With Moander's power, maybe he could have infected all Phaerimm with some kind of waste, causing them to cease their activities against Netheril and flee. Who knows there, though. With the power of the deity of magic, even if one did not know that she possessed the ability to control who can access magic, it does not take a rocket scientist to figure out that the power of the deity of magic would be the best power to have when a highly magical society is engaged in a campaign of genocide against another highly magical society, where magic is the primary weapon being used by both sides, against both sides. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
Edited by - Lord Karsus on 30 Apr 2012 17:31:44 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 30 Apr 2012 : 17:50:04
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quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
There is also the fact that the target of the spell was not a built-in feature of the spell. Karsus could have just as easily gone for Jergal or Moander. It was his arrogance that caused him to choose Mystryl.
-Given that the Phaerimm were destroying Netheril through magic, the obvious choice would be the deity of magic; practicality moreso than arrogance seems to have influenced that decision (ignoring 3e sources that say that Shar subtly influenced the choice of targets). In theory, sure, any deity would have given him godly powers, and with those powers, he could have taken care of business (insomuch as any deity can commit wholesale genocide with the snap of a finger). With Jergal's power, maybe he could have snapped and made all Phaerimm die. With Moander's power, maybe he could have infected all Phaerimm with some kind of waste, causing them to cease their activities against Netheril and flee. Who knows there, though. With the power of the deity of magic, even if one did not know that she possessed the ability to control who can access magic, it does not take a rocket scientist to figure out that the power of the deity of magic would be the best power to have when a highly magical society is engaged in a campaign of genocide against another highly magical society, where magic is the primary weapon being used by both sides, against both sides.
I personally would have gone for the option that enabled me to end the conflict right there, with a snap of my fingers, without any further time being wasted -- in other words, Jergal's power seems the most logical choice for someone wanting to end a war right now. |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3741 Posts |
Posted - 30 Apr 2012 : 17:55:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
There is also the fact that the target of the spell was not a built-in feature of the spell. Karsus could have just as easily gone for Jergal or Moander. It was his arrogance that caused him to choose Mystryl.
-Given that the Phaerimm were destroying Netheril through magic, the obvious choice would be the deity of magic; practicality moreso than arrogance seems to have influenced that decision (ignoring 3e sources that say that Shar subtly influenced the choice of targets). In theory, sure, any deity would have given him godly powers, and with those powers, he could have taken care of business (insomuch as any deity can commit wholesale genocide with the snap of a finger). With Jergal's power, maybe he could have snapped and made all Phaerimm die. With Moander's power, maybe he could have infected all Phaerimm with some kind of waste, causing them to cease their activities against Netheril and flee. Who knows there, though. With the power of the deity of magic, even if one did not know that she possessed the ability to control who can access magic, it does not take a rocket scientist to figure out that the power of the deity of magic would be the best power to have when a highly magical society is engaged in a campaign of genocide against another highly magical society, where magic is the primary weapon being used by both sides, against both sides.
I personally would have gone for the option that enabled me to end the conflict right there, with a snap of my fingers, without any further time being wasted -- in other words, Jergal's power seems the most logical choice for someone wanting to end a war right now.
-Given that we have never seen the wholesale genocide of a race via the deific snap of two fingers (hence my sarcasm), who knows if the god of the dead has this power. The goddess of magic, at the very least, has some control over magic, and one does not need to think very hard and extrapolate very far to figure that out. The power of a deity of magic would also be beneficial to Netheril after the conflict, repairing the damage the Phaerimm had unleashed and calming the people of Netheril, whereas the power of the deity of the dead would not. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
Edited by - Lord Karsus on 30 Apr 2012 17:56:44 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 30 Apr 2012 : 18:41:48
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From what I understand of the situation -
Karsus' spell didn't really steal Mystra's power, it created a link between him and the deity, usurping her control of her power.
She did NOT cut Karsus off from the Weave (unless this was retconned) - she killed herself, thereby denying him power over the Weave (he was only connected to it through her.)
When a part of a power-grid arcs, shorts-out, or anything else is amiss, you shut-down those sections with the spike, or even the entire system, until you can bring it back under control. Karsus allowed the Weave to 'run amok' because of his lack of understanding, and Mystra literally shut herself 'off', so the system could reboot properly. This was a fail-safe built into the system, and has probably happened numerous times in the past (at least every time the rules of magic change... so every edition).
What that means is that somehow this fail-safe system was bypassed completely when she was last killed, and hopefully we will find out how such a thing could have occurred (I am trusting Ed on this). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 01 May 2012 15:54:35 |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3741 Posts |
Posted - 01 May 2012 : 00:49:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
From what I understand of the situation (the Netherfall?)-
-Think of a computer. Mystra was the administrator of the "Deity of Magic" mainframe that regulated the "Weave" program. Karsus was a hacker that hacked into the system and started illegally downloading the data from the "Deity of Magic" mainframe for the "Weave" program, attempting to make himself the admin. While Mystra still had administrator access to the "Weave" program, she pulled the router cord and hot reset her PC, killing the connection that Karsus had with it. The information he was in the process of downloading was corrupted as a result (causing the weirdness that befell him, being split into various eternal, semi-divine pieces). |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 01 May 2012 : 01:33:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
The quotes Wooly provided above clearly note that Mystryl had lost control of the integrity of the Weave thanks to the Mad-Power Grab of Karsus.
So cutting Karsus off from the Weave kind of seems a little difficult when she no longer has the once-intimate ability to tweak and tinker with it, as she once did.
-Being unable to maintain the integrity of the Weave and prevent it from collapsing doesn't mean she did not retain one of her salient godly abilities to cut an individual off from the Weave.
I don't see it, personally. We know that most deities of magic have been "the Weave," according to Ed. We've been told in the lore that Mystryl lost the ability to maintain the integrity of the Weave -- essentially -- a very part of her divine being -- as a result of Karsus tapping into her power.
So, at the very least, if she had lost control of "herself," I find it difficult to assume that she could still determine the specific connections each and every individual mortal has to the Weave, and adjust them accordingly.
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 01 May 2012 : 02:08:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
There is also the fact that the target of the spell was not a built-in feature of the spell. Karsus could have just as easily gone for Jergal or Moander. It was his arrogance that caused him to choose Mystryl.
-Given that the Phaerimm were destroying Netheril through magic, the obvious choice would be the deity of magic; practicality moreso than arrogance seems to have influenced that decision (ignoring 3e sources that say that Shar subtly influenced the choice of targets). In theory, sure, any deity would have given him godly powers, and with those powers, he could have taken care of business (insomuch as any deity can commit wholesale genocide with the snap of a finger). With Jergal's power, maybe he could have snapped and made all Phaerimm die. With Moander's power, maybe he could have infected all Phaerimm with some kind of waste, causing them to cease their activities against Netheril and flee. Who knows there, though. With the power of the deity of magic, even if one did not know that she possessed the ability to control who can access magic, it does not take a rocket scientist to figure out that the power of the deity of magic would be the best power to have when a highly magical society is engaged in a campaign of genocide against another highly magical society, where magic is the primary weapon being used by both sides, against both sides.
I personally would have gone for the option that enabled me to end the conflict right there, with a snap of my fingers, without any further time being wasted -- in other words, Jergal's power seems the most logical choice for someone wanting to end a war right now.
I agree with LK. Jergal's power might be enough to wipe out the phaerimm. But what about after? What's he going to do with deathly powers in a society (Netheril) where magic is the currency?
Mystryl was the best choice for a target. If he became the god of magic, he can still attend to the welfare of Netheril without abandoning his godly duties. Also, let's not forget that Karsus was a brilliant arcanist. He created spells even the people 100 times his senior could only dream of...The only way to put that brilliance to maximum use is to be in charge of magic itself. |
Every beginning has an end. |
Edited by - Dennis on 01 May 2012 02:11:28 |
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