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Seravin
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1288 Posts |
 Posted - 17 Apr 2012 : 14:49:13
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Well, killing a goddess of magic on a people that live/breath magic would do that, Jarlaxle.
Aside from that, if we take the "Longman Dictionary of Contemporary English: adj. having a lot of influence and therefore changing the way people think and behave." definition in the first post, I think killing almost everyone in Netheril probably changed the way people living there thought and behaved.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 17 Apr 2012 : 15:40:28
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quote:
Originally posted by _Jarlaxle_
Ah good point.
But I guess that with him beeing a war hero, training over 3000 arcanists, a great lot of inventions which revolutionized netherese society, him storing the nether scrolls, him beeing the first citizen of Netheril and his disapearence creating a panic we can assume that it doesn't really fit here.
Those things mark him as influential. Just the one invention isn't enough, but the rest of this stuff is.
Still, for me, ending the growth and development of Netheril -- and destroying the nation and causing magic to be rewritten for everyone in Realmspace, not just Netherese survivors -- is far more influential than everything else. |
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_Jarlaxle_
Senior Scribe
Germany
584 Posts |
Posted - 17 Apr 2012 : 15:49:33
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Well I'm no native english speaker but I asumed it was meant more on a positive way.
When including this huge action of Karsus which changed Netheril more than anything else by destroying it I think impact would be a better description than influence. But I'm not sure if there really is a linguistic difference between those words (and in this context). |
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Seravin
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1288 Posts |
Posted - 17 Apr 2012 : 16:38:33
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| Agreed if we say "positive influence" on Netheril then it's not Karsus! For sure. But overall influence has to be Karsus by my book. |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3741 Posts |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 17 Apr 2012 : 21:12:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
-Plenty of good things were done to Netheril during my heydays. You act as if Karsus was a monster.
Nope, just wackadoo. |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3741 Posts |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 17 Apr 2012 : 22:06:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
-The said the same about Copernicus, and ibn Sina, and da Vinci, and Einstein, and Telsa. Especially Tesla...
Except that their wackadoo-ness didn't destroy their own nation. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 26 Apr 2012 : 02:53:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
-The said the same about Copernicus, and ibn Sina, and da Vinci, and Einstein, and Telsa. Especially Tesla...
Except that their wackadoo-ness didn't destroy their own nation.
He wouldn't have destroyed her homeland if not for the suicidal goddess' intervention. While he's partly to blame; Mystryl shared the same blame. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 26 Apr 2012 : 04:09:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
-The said the same about Copernicus, and ibn Sina, and da Vinci, and Einstein, and Telsa. Especially Tesla...
Except that their wackadoo-ness didn't destroy their own nation.
He wouldn't have destroyed her homeland if not for the suicidal goddess' intervention. While he's partly to blame; Mystryl shared the same blame.
Of course, because she forced him to come up with the idea, she forced him to decide to go thru with it, and she forced him to pick her. On top of that, her acting to protect all of magic -- her reason for existence -- is just so spiteful.  |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 26 Apr 2012 : 04:12:58
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
-The said the same about Copernicus, and ibn Sina, and da Vinci, and Einstein, and Telsa. Especially Tesla...
Except that their wackadoo-ness didn't destroy their own nation.
He wouldn't have destroyed her homeland if not for the suicidal goddess' intervention. While he's partly to blame; Mystryl shared the same blame.
Of course, because she forced him to come up with the idea, she forced him to decide to go thru with it, and she forced him to pick her. On top of that, her acting to protect all of magic -- her reason for existence -- is just so spiteful.
And in her supposed great wisdom, she thought destroying an entire magical empire without thinking of a less disastrous alternative was a wise move. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 26 Apr 2012 : 04:58:07
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
-The said the same about Copernicus, and ibn Sina, and da Vinci, and Einstein, and Telsa. Especially Tesla...
Except that their wackadoo-ness didn't destroy their own nation.
He wouldn't have destroyed her homeland if not for the suicidal goddess' intervention. While he's partly to blame; Mystryl shared the same blame.
Of course, because she forced him to come up with the idea, she forced him to decide to go thru with it, and she forced him to pick her. On top of that, her acting to protect all of magic -- her reason for existence -- is just so spiteful.
And in her supposed great wisdom, she thought destroying an entire magical empire without thinking of a less disastrous alternative was a wise move.
Let's see, save the world now and let a bunch of arrogant fools die, or let the world die and save the arrogant fools who caused it? Yeah, tough choice, there. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 26 Apr 2012 : 05:07:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
-The said the same about Copernicus, and ibn Sina, and da Vinci, and Einstein, and Telsa. Especially Tesla...
Except that their wackadoo-ness didn't destroy their own nation.
He wouldn't have destroyed her homeland if not for the suicidal goddess' intervention. While he's partly to blame; Mystryl shared the same blame.
Of course, because she forced him to come up with the idea, she forced him to decide to go thru with it, and she forced him to pick her. On top of that, her acting to protect all of magic -- her reason for existence -- is just so spiteful.
And in her supposed great wisdom, she thought destroying an entire magical empire without thinking of a less disastrous alternative was a wise move.
Let's see, save the world now and let a bunch of arrogant fools die, or let the world die and save the arrogant fools who caused it? Yeah, tough choice, there.
Save the world AND the arrogant fools---the very same fools who practiced magic everyday of their long existence and helped increase her powers---and kill just ONE fool. That's an alternative she's either too lazy or stupid to see. Probably both. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 26 Apr 2012 : 06:17:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
-The said the same about Copernicus, and ibn Sina, and da Vinci, and Einstein, and Telsa. Especially Tesla...
Except that their wackadoo-ness didn't destroy their own nation.
He wouldn't have destroyed her homeland if not for the suicidal goddess' intervention. While he's partly to blame; Mystryl shared the same blame.
What blame does she share? |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 26 Apr 2012 : 06:17:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
-The said the same about Copernicus, and ibn Sina, and da Vinci, and Einstein, and Telsa. Especially Tesla...
Except that their wackadoo-ness didn't destroy their own nation.
He wouldn't have destroyed her homeland if not for the suicidal goddess' intervention. While he's partly to blame; Mystryl shared the same blame.
Of course, because she forced him to come up with the idea, she forced him to decide to go thru with it, and she forced him to pick her. On top of that, her acting to protect all of magic -- her reason for existence -- is just so spiteful.
And in her supposed great wisdom, she thought destroying an entire magical empire without thinking of a less disastrous alternative was a wise move.
I'm curious. What would be a less disastrous alternative? |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 26 Apr 2012 : 06:19:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
-The said the same about Copernicus, and ibn Sina, and da Vinci, and Einstein, and Telsa. Especially Tesla...
Except that their wackadoo-ness didn't destroy their own nation.
He wouldn't have destroyed her homeland if not for the suicidal goddess' intervention. While he's partly to blame; Mystryl shared the same blame.
Of course, because she forced him to come up with the idea, she forced him to decide to go thru with it, and she forced him to pick her. On top of that, her acting to protect all of magic -- her reason for existence -- is just so spiteful.
And in her supposed great wisdom, she thought destroying an entire magical empire without thinking of a less disastrous alternative was a wise move.
Let's see, save the world now and let a bunch of arrogant fools die, or let the world die and save the arrogant fools who caused it? Yeah, tough choice, there.
Save the world AND the arrogant fools---the very same fools who practiced magic everyday of their long existence and helped increase her powers---and kill just ONE fool. That's an alternative she's either too lazy or stupid to see. Probably both.
Why save arrogant fools when it was their insane presumption that they could both conceive and master the power of gods?
It's a delicate balance between the spheres of mortal and divine. And folk like Karsus only represent a fundamental disruption to that balance that shouldn't long be tolerated. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 26 Apr 2012 : 07:04:05
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
Why save arrogant fools when it was their insane presumption that they could both conceive and master the power of gods?
It's a delicate balance between the spheres of mortal and divine. And folk like Karsus only represent a fundamental disruption to that balance that shouldn't long be tolerated.
That's like saying she should have got rid of all ambitious, evil wizards there were on the planet.
Many non-Netherese wizards were evil, didn't care for the gods, and at times even spat at their faces. Yet Mystryl let them be, because in essence, by using magic, they helped strengthen her. Why would he treat the Netherese differently? Not all Netherese thought like Karsus, and were practically happy doing their business and ignoring the gods. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 26 Apr 2012 : 07:11:34
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
I'm curious. What would be a less disastrous alternative?
There are virtually thousands of them...Two that are obvious: teleport to a place where Karsus could not reach (which would have required the same amount of time she used in killing herself; besides, she got more than enough time to do just that, as Karsus was busy fighting the phaerimm that dared rise and stop him); or simply cut Karus (and he alone) off the Weave. If she could do that to greater deities, why not to a mere mortal? |
Every beginning has an end. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 26 Apr 2012 : 07:55:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
Why save arrogant fools when it was their insane presumption that they could both conceive and master the power of gods?
It's a delicate balance between the spheres of mortal and divine. And folk like Karsus only represent a fundamental disruption to that balance that shouldn't long be tolerated.
That's like saying she should have got rid of all ambitious, evil wizards there were on the planet.
Why? All ambitious and evil wizards haven't threatened to destroy the very fabric of the Weave.
quote:
Many non-Netherese wizards were evil, didn't care for the gods, and at times even spat at their faces. Yet Mystryl let them be, because in essence, by using magic, they helped strengthen her. Why would he treat the Netherese differently? Not all Netherese thought like Karsus, and were practically happy doing their business and ignoring the gods.
I'm not suggesting that Mystryl treat the Netherese arcanists any different from how she would treat those high-levelled mages of other societies.
But, at the same time, no other mortal civilisation has come as close to breaching the barrier between non-divine and divine, than the Netherese. That fact alone, should prompt Mystryl, and consequently, her successors, to more intensely monitor any and all civilisations that demonstrate sufficient ability to once again cross that barrier.
|
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 26 Apr 2012 : 07:58:58
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
I'm curious. What would be a less disastrous alternative?
There are virtually thousands of them...Two that are obvious: teleport to a place where Karsus could not reach (which would have required the same amount of time she used in killing herself; besides, she got more than enough time to do just that, as Karsus was busy fighting the phaerimm that dared rise and stop him); or simply cut Karus (and he alone) off the Weave. If she could do that to greater deities, why not to a mere mortal?
We don't know anything of the intimate details of the relationship between Mystryl and the Weave, and by extension, the Realms. And the Grand Folly of Karsus created unprecedented levels of chaos and confusion about how that intimate relationship works.
I don't believe we can assume that rules we've seen applied elsewhere in similar scenarios, could have just as easily be applied in this situation. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 26 Apr 2012 : 08:01:36
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Putting restrictions to the access of the Weave was logical---and should have been enough. Why would annihilating an entire race be necessary? |
Every beginning has an end. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 26 Apr 2012 : 08:06:12
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| It's only logical if Mystryl could have convincingly understood and countered [on a celestial-level] what Karsus managed to achieve. The fact that she acted in the manner that she did, tells me that Karsus' mad-power grab was an unprecedented event in the history of mortal-divine affairs. She acted in the best interests of the entire scope of Weave to save the bounds of magic and it's intricate relationship with the Realms. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 26 Apr 2012 : 08:07:34
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
I'm curious. What would be a less disastrous alternative?
There are virtually thousands of them...Two that are obvious: teleport to a place where Karsus could not reach (which would have required the same amount of time she used in killing herself; besides, she got more than enough time to do just that, as Karsus was busy fighting the phaerimm that dared rise and stop him); or simply cut Karus (and he alone) off the Weave. If she could do that to greater deities, why not to a mere mortal?
We don't know anything of the intimate details of the relationship between Mystryl and the Weave, and by extension, the Realms. And the Grand Folly of Karsus created unprecedented levels of chaos and confusion about how that intimate relationship works.
I don't believe we can assume that rules we've seen applied elsewhere in similar scenarios, could have just as easily be applied in this situation.
Are you implying that Mystryl was the idiot version of Mystra/Midnight, who easily cut off a greater deity (Talos) from the Weave with mere thought? Talos might not be as skillful as Karsus in terms of using the Art, but surely severing his access to the Weave required more firepower than doing the same to a mere mortal. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 26 Apr 2012 : 10:54:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
I'm curious. What would be a less disastrous alternative?
There are virtually thousands of them...Two that are obvious: teleport to a place where Karsus could not reach (which would have required the same amount of time she used in killing herself; besides, she got more than enough time to do just that, as Karsus was busy fighting the phaerimm that dared rise and stop him); or simply cut Karus (and he alone) off the Weave. If she could do that to greater deities, why not to a mere mortal?
We don't know anything of the intimate details of the relationship between Mystryl and the Weave, and by extension, the Realms. And the Grand Folly of Karsus created unprecedented levels of chaos and confusion about how that intimate relationship works.
I don't believe we can assume that rules we've seen applied elsewhere in similar scenarios, could have just as easily be applied in this situation.
Are you implying that Mystryl was the idiot version of Mystra/Midnight, who easily cut off a greater deity (Talos) from the Weave with mere thought? Talos might not be as skillful as Karsus in terms of using the Art, but surely severing his access to the Weave required more firepower than doing the same to a mere mortal.
And when she did that, the Weave was stable, she was the only one in control of it, and no one was trying to take her the entire reason she existed. Not the same situation as Karsus -- not even close. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 26 Apr 2012 : 14:37:08
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
I'm curious. What would be a less disastrous alternative?
There are virtually thousands of them...Two that are obvious: teleport to a place where Karsus could not reach (which would have required the same amount of time she used in killing herself; besides, she got more than enough time to do just that, as Karsus was busy fighting the phaerimm that dared rise and stop him); or simply cut Karus (and he alone) off the Weave. If she could do that to greater deities, why not to a mere mortal?
We don't know anything of the intimate details of the relationship between Mystryl and the Weave, and by extension, the Realms. And the Grand Folly of Karsus created unprecedented levels of chaos and confusion about how that intimate relationship works.
I don't believe we can assume that rules we've seen applied elsewhere in similar scenarios, could have just as easily be applied in this situation.
Are you implying that Mystryl was the idiot version of Mystra/Midnight, who easily cut off a greater deity (Talos) from the Weave with mere thought?
Not at all.
quote:
Talos might not be as skillful as Karsus in terms of using the Art, but surely severing his access to the Weave required more firepower than doing the same to a mere mortal.
Not really. Talos had an established divine-level relationship with the Weave. I can appreciate that Mystryl already had the ability to competently handle cutting another deity off from the Weave.
Karsus's mad-power grab was a divine-intrusion... almost a form of divine-rape for lack of a better term. It was a volition to the very core of her being. Something she just wasn't properly prepared for. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 26 Apr 2012 : 15:00:46
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You know, I figured-out that you can force those words back to black by using the [/black] code. 
Black & Blue... this site really beats you up sometimes. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3741 Posts |
Posted - 26 Apr 2012 : 21:25:08
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
What blame does she share?
-Had Mystryl not ended her existence to sever the connection the spell created, some alternative would have taken place. The end result that is recorded in the history books, the ultimate fall of High Netheril, is on her, among other people. That's not to say that what she did wasn't ultimately best for herself, the Weave, the world, whatever, but to say she had no role in it would be inaccurate. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
Edited by - Lord Karsus on 26 Apr 2012 21:26:32 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 26 Apr 2012 : 21:55:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
What blame does she share?
-Had Mystryl not ended her existence to sever the connection the spell created, some alternative would have taken place. The end result that is recorded in the history books, the ultimate fall of High Netheril, is on her, among other people. That's not to say that what she did wasn't ultimately best for herself, the Weave, the world, whatever, but to say she had no role in it would be inaccurate.
There's a difference between saying she had no role in it, and saying it's all her fault. |
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Eli the Tanner
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
149 Posts |
Posted - 27 Apr 2012 : 01:26:13
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I like these discussions 
Before the fall(-345 DR) the Terraseer appeared before Karsus and said to him:
"The goddess Mystryl is about to face her greatest challengeone
that could alter the perception of magic for all time."
How do you folk reckon such foreknowledge influenced Karsus' decisions? Did Mystryl pass or fail her challenge? |
Moderator of /r/Forgotten_Realms |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 27 Apr 2012 : 01:34:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
What blame does she share?
-Had Mystryl not ended her existence to sever the connection the spell created, some alternative would have taken place.
Such as?
quote:
The end result that is recorded in the history books, the ultimate fall of High Netheril, is on her, among other people. That's not to say that what she did wasn't ultimately best for herself, the Weave, the world, whatever, but to say she had no role in it would be inaccurate.
Of course she had a role in it. But to assign blame to Mystryl when she was simply acting in the best interests of the rest of the Weave and the Realms, is also inaccurate. |
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Topic |
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The Most Influential Netherese Archwizard
