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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
 Posted - 04 Oct 2012 : 20:09:31
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"Hell hath no fury like a women scorned"
Now add in the deity-factor and multiply that by a thousand. Lolth is one PO'ed biotch. Look at her religion - she requires constant fauning and attention, and also the whole "that shalt not place any other gods before me" thing. She is a vain megalomaniac - a deva in the worst extreme. Picture Lindsey Lohan with the powers of a deity, and the intelligence to match.
Self-adsorbed and self-destructive. Just look at the society she forced the drow to take.
I find Lolth very interesting... its Shar that bores me to tears. "*Wahhhhh* the universe irritates me so I want it all to just go away (including myself)." Talk about a nihilist. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 04 Oct 2012 20:11:01 |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3824 Posts |
Posted - 04 Oct 2012 : 20:40:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
"Hell hath no fury like a women scorned"
Now add in the deity-factor and multiply that by a thousand. Lolth is one PO'ed biotch. Look at her religion - she requires constant fauning and attention, and also the whole "that shalt not place any other gods before me" thing. She is a vain megalomaniac - a deva in the worst extreme. Picture Lindsey Lohan with the powers of a deity, and the intelligence to match.
Self-adsorbed and self-destructive. Just look at the society she forced the drow to take.
Yes, and the pointlessness of this is what makes me dislike her. I find characters who are so self-focused and vain to be extremely boring. But, as I said before, IMO ofc.
quote:
I find Lolth very interesting... its Shar that bores me to tears. "*Wahhhhh* the universe irritates me so I want it all to just go away (including myself)." Talk about a nihilist.
That's something that makes me dislike Shar. While Lolth is 'Mwahaha I shall conquer the world', Shar is 'Mwahaha I shall destroy the world'. However Shar has a way to behave towards her followers which stirs some interest in me. Lolth imposes its religion (you know: indoctrination, pre-defined lives with no real possibility to choose and forge one's own future for her followers etc... Basically the drow are brainwashed pawns with little initiative in their big plans but divine mandate. They are the pitiable creatures here), Shar kind of does that too, but at least she lures people into it. She feeds on sorrow and despair, offering a false relief to the ones who are grieved by loss in bitterness and revenge: an intoxicating feel which poisons the mind of the ones who seek it, leading them to inexorably slip into Shar's 'embrace'. While I dislike both the Spider Queen's and the Lady of Loss' motivations, what I wrote above would make me choose the latter over the former anytime. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 04 Oct 2012 20:41:12 |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 04 Oct 2012 : 20:47:07
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I am not saying thats precisely what he was doing - I am saying that that is the way she perceived it.
Believe me, this particular relationship/argument hits home for me. Trust me, it is entirely possible to be 'condescending' without ever realizing you are being that way. The damage wrought by such a relationship creates a person who has low self-esteem and the desire to prove themselves (to a fault). It took me 20 years to figure this out... Corellon's had millenia... I am sure he is as aware of his faults as I am of mine.
You can do a lot of damage by accident - "the road to hell is paved with good intentions." 
Oh, I see what you're saying *defensive of her god*  And that is true, you can be doing something without realizing it, and of course the other person doesn't tell you.
@Irennan: because it's fantasy, I'm going to take the "myth" as fact. It was presented like it actually happened, and because this is the Realms, I'm going to take it like it actually happened, rather than just being "elven myth". Myths have to begin from somewhere, after all  |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3824 Posts |
Posted - 04 Oct 2012 : 20:52:45
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quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
@Irennan: because it's fantasy, I'm going to take the "myth" as fact. It was presented like it actually happened, and because this is the Realms, I'm going to take it like it actually happened, rather than just being "elven myth". Myths have to begin from somewhere, after all
Like from the imagination of writers?  |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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Lord Bane
Senior Scribe
Germany
479 Posts |
Posted - 04 Oct 2012 : 20:58:12
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Lolth is a bad universal villain, so is Shar.
Heed the Black Hands call! Embrace Bane! He has it all that makes a villain be cool and proper, if he would be just given justice as the "big baddie" as Ed Greenwood described him once.
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The driving force in the multiverse is evil, for it forces good to act. |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 04 Oct 2012 : 20:58:50
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| Haha, point taken, but I mean within the world of the writer's imagination. Like it's a fact within the fictional setting |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3824 Posts |
Posted - 04 Oct 2012 : 21:05:41
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quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
Haha, point taken, but I mean within the world of the writer's imagination. Like it's a fact within the fictional setting
Yes, I know. I was referring to the imagination of the in-setting writers and storytellers. But I wasn't serious. Actually we don't know whether that's a myth or not: this is the kind of things about deities that should be left wrapped in mystery. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 04 Oct 2012 21:06:01 |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 04 Oct 2012 : 21:10:37
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| There are things about the deities that should be wrapped in mystery, but stories like this I think should be "out in the open", and not so mysterious. Perhaps Lolth's true motive was a mystery, but not the event itself, if that makes sense. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 04 Oct 2012 : 21:40:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I am not saying thats precisely what he was doing - I am saying that that is the way she perceived it.
Believe me, this particular relationship/argument hits home for me. Trust me, it is entirely possible to be 'condescending' without ever realizing you are being that way. The damage wrought by such a relationship creates a person who has low self-esteem and the desire to prove themselves (to a fault). It took me 20 years to figure this out... Corellon's had millenia... I am sure he is as aware of his faults as I am of mine.
You can do a lot of damage by accident - "the road to hell is paved with good intentions."
Intentional or otherwise, it does sound to be in line with Corellon's characterization.
There was an article in Dragon Magazine a few months back(I want to say in the febuary issue though it could have been march or april) detailing Corellon's relationship with Gruumsh; describing them as twin brothers.
It mentions that during the Dawn War with the primordials, Gruumsh fought from beginning to end(literally, it explains his epitaph "He Who Never Sleeps" as coming from the fact he was perpetually locked in battle throughout the war), and in many ways was a large part of the God's victory.
Meanwhile, Corellon spent much of the first half of the war in the Feywild, completely ignoring it; he just "dallied" with Lolth and the other elven goddesses. It wasn't until Lolth was corrupted(this particular source blames the primordials for it) that he realized the war might actually be important, and he joined the fray. It even mentions he fought side by side with Gruumsh on many occassions.
Then, when the war was over, Corellon hogged the spotlight and was hailed as a champion and a hero by the other gods, while Gruumsh was shunned, despite the fact that he had fought harder and longer and Corellon was a late comer. Corellon apparently didn't even realize this wounded Gruumsh's pride, and is a large part of the grudge Gruumsh bore him.
Over all the article paints Corellon as a well meaning figure, if one who was a bit judgmental, self righteous, and insensitive to how his actions affected others.
Then again there was another 4e source(I want to say Manual of the Planes, though it could have been Plane Above) that say Lolth's corruption was the result of having an affair with Gruumsh and his chaotic nature rubbing off on her. All goes back to the point that these are myths, contradictory and in the end, unprovable.
Of course, all of that is from the Points of Light setting, not strictly applicable to the Realms(though I do use it in my own realms campaigns.)
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"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
The Roleplayer's Gazebo;
http://theroleplayersgazebo.yuku.com/directory#.Ub4hvvlJOAY |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 04 Oct 2012 : 22:00:44
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| I asked about the Plane Above book in another thread, because the Arvandor described there was not the one I was familiar with in the Realms. Erik commented, and he said that while that Arvandor was influenced by his love of the Realms (thus the Seldarine), it is not the same. I was confused because the Plane Above mentions the Lattice of Heaven and the Dawn War, something I wasn't familiar with, and I don't remember reading about that anywhere else. From my understanding, the Corellon and Sehanine, while sharing some similarities, are not the same in core or Nentir Vale setting as they are in the Realms, though this might be a 4e thing *shrug* I don't know any of this for certain of course, but this is how it sounds to me. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3824 Posts |
Posted - 04 Oct 2012 : 22:18:27
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quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
There are things about the deities that should be wrapped in mystery, but stories like this I think should be "out in the open", and not so mysterious. Perhaps Lolth's true motive was a mystery, but not the event itself, if that makes sense.
The only thing that should be known for certain is that Lolth attempted to usurp Corellon's place and that as result was exiled with Vhaeraun, followed by Eilistraee, who chose the way of the exile. That's the only thing that actually matters. The rest should be a 'myth' which may or not be true, IMO. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 04 Oct 2012 : 22:40:36
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Well, Erik, being part of the design team, certainly knows more on the subject than I do.
What I do know is that the concept of the Dawn War is one that 4e applied to all the settings; a war between the gods and titanic beings of chaos called the primordials(inspired by equal parts the titans of greek myth and the jotuns of norse myth, with some Lovecraft thrown in) at the beginning of the universe, that the gods eventually won.
How the 4e core information relates to other settings such as the Realms or Dark Sun can be best summed up, in my opinion, as "broad strokes". The Arvandor in Plane Above isn't the same as the Arvandor in the Realms, but it similar. Truly, the changes to Arvandor are, in my opinion, minor compared to the differences between core and Realms Nishrek, being an independent plane in the realms and crashed into Bane's realm in core. Still, the book's there to take inspiration from them for all settings, including the realms.
Personally I don't necessarily believe in "canon" when it comes to D&D and it's settings. There aren't there to tell a story themselves, in my opinion. D&D and it's settings exist to give DM's, players, and writers the tools to tell their own stories.
As such, within my game, I can take any given aspect of 4e core that I choose and make it part of my Realms game. Or I can take any part the Realms that I choose and make it part of my Dark Sun game. I can take any part of any setting and make it part of my Warcraft game or my Song of Ice and Fire game or my homebrew Ancient Rome meets 1920s Chicago game, and within the context of my game, it'll be canon. No one else's, mind you. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
The Roleplayer's Gazebo;
http://theroleplayersgazebo.yuku.com/directory#.Ub4hvvlJOAY |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 04 Oct 2012 : 23:07:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus
Well, Erik, being part of the design team, certainly knows more on the subject than I do.
What I do know is that the concept of the Dawn War is one that 4e applied to all the settings; a war between the gods and titanic beings of chaos called the primordials(inspired by equal parts the titans of greek myth and the jotuns of norse myth, with some Lovecraft thrown in) at the beginning of the universe, that the gods eventually won.
How the 4e core information relates to other settings such as the Realms or Dark Sun can be best summed up, in my opinion, as "broad strokes". The Arvandor in Plane Above isn't the same as the Arvandor in the Realms, but it similar. Truly, the changes to Arvandor are, in my opinion, minor compared to the differences between core and Realms Nishrek, being an independent plane in the realms and crashed into Bane's realm in core. Still, the book's there to take inspiration from them for all settings, including the realms.
Personally I don't necessarily believe in "canon" when it comes to D&D and it's settings. There aren't there to tell a story themselves, in my opinion. D&D and it's settings exist to give DM's, players, and writers the tools to tell their own stories.
As such, within my game, I can take any given aspect of 4e core that I choose and make it part of my Realms game. Or I can take any part the Realms that I choose and make it part of my Dark Sun game. I can take any part of any setting and make it part of my Warcraft game or my Song of Ice and Fire game or my homebrew Ancient Rome meets 1920s Chicago game, and within the context of my game, it'll be canon. No one else's, mind you.
Oh, yes, Erik does know more, and I’m in no way trying to criticize him (I was hoping the thread I started on FR Arvandor vs core would have gone on a little more, because it is about this, but that’s beside the point). I am just saying that the Arvandor I am familiar with, based on the novels, differs from the one described in Plane Above. Not a black and white difference, for there are some similarities, too. But Sehanine and Corellon’s profile differ from the one described in Plane Above vs FR material I’ve read on them. What stuck out to me the most, however, was the difference in the afterlife. In the FR novels I’ve read featuring elves, Arvandor sounds like a pretty sure thing, and they won’t die again once they get there, whereas in the Plane Above, such is not always the case. Erik told me not to read too much into this, but I am anyway lol (sorry, Erik). Arvandor sounds quite dangerous, according to the Plane Above, which contradicts other things I’ve read. But as I said, Erik took his love of the Realms and it influenced him, but it was not necessarily the same thing.
Of course a DM has liberties, and doesn’t have to use things he/she doesn’t like. Where did you read about the Dawn War? In looking through my 4e FRCG, I must have completely missed something if it’s there.
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Sweet water and light laughter |
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 05 Oct 2012 : 00:26:16
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I did see that thread on Arvandor, though I didn't have much to add to it. My personal interests in the Plane Above lay with Baator and Nishrik, along with races such as the maruts.
While I had mixed feelings about the 'souls aren't immortal' thing, I enjoyed that they made most, if not all, the realms dangerous places. That was something that certainly appealed to me.
As for the Dawn War, it's detailed in various sources. The Plane Above, the Plane Below, and the Manual of the Planes are the tomes that deal most directly with the topic, as well as several Dragon Magazine and Dungeon Magazine articles dealing with specific gods or primordials. Off the top of my head, in the Realms, the Dawn War is touched on most directly in concerns with sections relating to Returned Abier(which, for the record, I'm hoping stays around in 5e as it is so rich in potential), as within the context of the realms, the Dawn War ended when Ao split the world in two, giving Toril to the Gods and Abier to the Primordials. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
The Roleplayer's Gazebo;
http://theroleplayersgazebo.yuku.com/directory#.Ub4hvvlJOAY |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 05 Oct 2012 : 03:14:02
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For me, it depends on the realm. If it is a place like Arvandor, I don't think it should have much danger, at least to the point where a soul can die. But a place like the Nine Hells or the Abyss, well yeah, danger comes with the territory. I do not want to offend Erik or his writing (I love his Shadowbane novels), but I guess the Plane Above book threw me off guard. I guess if it's different from the Realms, though, I can handle it *shrug*
Hey, that's what should happen in 5r: the repairing of the Lattice of Heaven! Lol. I actually like having Abeir as well. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 05 Oct 2012 : 04:25:35
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What I think is that all of them (Lolth, Gruumsh, & most of the Seldarine) were eladrin - exarch-class children of the original fey - who ascended to godhood through hero-worship. In fact, they probably started-out very much like the original, pre-4e eladrin.
Both Shar and Lolth have tons of potential - I think they've just been using them wrong (or without a lot of subtlety, which is how they should operate). How do we know Lolth actually likes the society the Drow live in? It seems to me that a highly regimented, static, stratified society is exactly the opposite of what she would want. Maybe that's her problem - that society is a test, and most drow fail. Its the Liriels, Drizzts, and Jarlaxles who really pass her test. The idea is to escape her bonds and become something greater - not live under her thumb, as she had to do under Corellons. Drow society isn't a culture - its a prison. Maybe what she really wants is for them to all cast off their chains and be free once again. Maybe she's not so evil - maybe she's just the ultimate example of 'tough love'.
As for Shar, they just need Ed to retool her to her original - she's too heavy-handed in most of the post-2e lore. A goddess of secrets and shadows should not be so overt.
quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus
There was an article in Dragon Magazine a few months back(I want to say in the febuary issue though it could have been march or april) detailing Corellon's relationship with Gruumsh; describing them as twin brothers.
There was an article in Dragon about them being brothers? 
LOL! I've been saying precisely that for years - who wrote it? |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 05 Oct 2012 04:40:47 |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 05 Oct 2012 : 04:30:53
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| *falls over* my Corellite sensibilities just flip-flopped. Say what?! brothers? Okay, I know in Lord of the Rings, orcs used to be elves, but Corellon and Gruumsh as bros?! |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 05 Oct 2012 : 05:16:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
What I think is that all of them (Lolth, Gruumsh, & most of the Seldarine) were eladrin - exarch-class children of the original fey - who ascended to godhood through hero-worship. In fact, they probably started-out very much like the original, pre-4e eladrin.
Both Shar and Lolth have tons of potential - I think they've just been using them wrong (or without a lot of subtlety, which is how they should operate). How do we know Lolth actually likes the society the Drow live in? It seems to me that a highly regimented, static, stratified society is exactly the opposite of what she would want. Maybe that's her problem - that society is a test, and most drow fail. Its the Liriels, Drizzts, and Jarlaxles who really pass her test. The idea is to escape her bonds and become something greater - not live under her thumb, as she had to do under Corellons. Drow society isn't a culture - its a prison. Maybe what she really wants is for them to all cast off their chains and be free once again. Maybe she's not so evil - maybe she's just the ultimate example of 'tough love'.
As for Shar, they just need Ed to retool her to her original - she's too heavy-handed in most of the post-2e lore. A goddess of secrets and shadows should not be so overt.
quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus
There was an article in Dragon Magazine a few months back(I want to say in the febuary issue though it could have been march or april) detailing Corellon's relationship with Gruumsh; describing them as twin brothers.
There was an article in Dragon about them being brothers?
LOL! I've been saying precisely that for years - who wrote it?
One Mr. Jeff LaSala. The Article is titled History Check: Corellon and Gruumsh, from the Febuary 2012 issue.
The article is written from an in-universe perspective, that of a Vistanl(a planes traveling gypsy like race), discussing the legends of elves and orcs over a campfire with a traveling companion. The whole thing is presented as a myth, with the implication that it's the closest thing to the truth that has been presented so far.
Among other things, it makes it clear that if you suggest this kind of thing around eladrin, elves, orcs, or half orcs, you'll get punched. It also presents Gruumsh in a much better light than most tellings of the myth; as mentioned, he fought much harder in the Dawn War but didn't get the glory that Corellon did and was bitter about it. It also makes it clear that when the two finally came to blows, it was an epic struggle that lasted a very long time, and that Gruumsh very nearly won. It was only through the intervention of another deity, some say Lolth, others say Sehanine, distracted Gruumsh at the critical moment, letting Corellon cut out his eye and escape.
It's one of the better Dragon articles I've read, really. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
The Roleplayer's Gazebo;
http://theroleplayersgazebo.yuku.com/directory#.Ub4hvvlJOAY |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 05 Oct 2012 : 05:21:37
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| Does this lore apply to the Realms as well? I haven't subscribed to Dragon Magazine, though I've seen it on the Wizards website. Is it only available online? |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 05 Oct 2012 : 06:24:47
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Well, it's for the 4e core setting, so it doesn't necessarily apply to the realms, but by that same token there's nothing saying it can't apply to the realms, either. There's nothing I can see in the article that explicitly excludes it from being taken as Realmslore if one were to slap a forgotten realms logo on it, though a more learned sage than myself might spot something I'm not seeing.
As for Dragon Magazine, for the last few years the publication(along with it's twin, Dungeon Magazine) have been digital download only, primarily available through DDI(Dungeogns & Dragons Insider), though I have heard from friends of friends of acquaintances that there are places online where one can find free downloads through second hand sources. Of course, what kind of fiendish person would do such an unspeakable thing as internet piracy, I haven't a clue. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
The Roleplayer's Gazebo;
http://theroleplayersgazebo.yuku.com/directory#.Ub4hvvlJOAY |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 05 Oct 2012 : 06:31:11
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I bought a one-month subscription, mainly so I could read that article, and you're right, there is no real reason it couldn't apply to the Realms, except I haven't heard of the Lattice of Heaven being part of the Realms, and Iuon isn't either. Plus, it contradicts the battle that took place in the book [i[Evermeet[/i], but that is not to say it isn't possible. I don't think it puts Gruumsh in a favorable light though. I mean, you could argue he was jipped by the progenitor god who made him ugly and mean, but in the end, IMO, he is just that, ugly and mean. Then again, I AM a a devout of Corellon, so naturally I am biased  |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 05 Oct 2012 : 06:38:15
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Well, favorable being a relative term. It certainly presents him as being more capable than most lore written on him by authors with dated, backwards sensibilities in regards to orcs and evil in general.
Having not read Evermeet and having absolutely no interest in doing so, I couldn't say to what degree they contradict. But I'm of the opinion that anything written about the gods is simple myth, though some may be closer to the truth than others. As Irennan said, the only thing that should be known for certain is the event; in this case, that Gruumsh and Corellon fought, that they both survived, and that Gruumsh lost an eye.
Personally, Gruumsh is my second favorite D&D/Realms deity after Asmodeus, and in general I prefer the concept of evil being a formidable, often overwhelming opponent as opposed to an inherently weaker enemy who's defeat is without effort. As such, the source where Gruumsh very nearly kills Corellon and Corellon survives only through the intervention of another has a lot more appeal to me. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
The Roleplayer's Gazebo;
http://theroleplayersgazebo.yuku.com/directory#.Ub4hvvlJOAY |
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 05 Oct 2012 : 06:57:24
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Another reason I feel this Article is meant to show at least some sympathy with Gruumsh is the bit about him fighting throughout the Dawn War and being a crucial part of the god's victory and not receiving any glory or acclaim for it, where as Corellon showed up late to the party, only after one of his playmates turned on him, and yet was hailed as a hero and a champion after the war was over. I can easily see how that can cause a lot of bitterness, especially between brothers, so the motivation becomes a lot clearer.
It reminds me of how several european nations have a problem with the way the U.S. presents the history of the second world war; the european nations fought throughout the whole thing, suffered greater losses, won greater victories. America shows up late, steals all the glory and claims all the credit in the history books for fifty years despite the fact that it was the Soviets that really won the war.
Note; I am an American, my grandfather fought in WW2, and I'm proud of my country's part in the conflict. But I can certainly sympathize with why others have a problem with it.
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"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
The Roleplayer's Gazebo;
http://theroleplayersgazebo.yuku.com/directory#.Ub4hvvlJOAY |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3824 Posts |
Posted - 05 Oct 2012 : 09:55:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
[...] How do we know Lolth actually likes the society the Drow live in? It seems to me that a highly regimented, static, stratified society is exactly the opposite of what she would want. Maybe that's her problem - that society is a test, and most drow fail. Its the Liriels, Drizzts, and Jarlaxles who really pass her test. The idea is to escape her bonds and become something greater - not live under her thumb, as she had to do under Corellons. Drow society isn't a culture - its a prison. Maybe what she really wants is for them to all cast off their chains and be free once again. Maybe she's not so evil - maybe she's just the ultimate example of 'tough love'. [...]
The staticity, regimentation and blind zealotry of the drow society are just the tools Lolth uses to keep the drow tied to her leash, as her pawns. Even if doesn't like staticity, it is necessary for her goal (on the other hand, she likes very much the self destructive and pointless infighting she imposes to the dark elves). If they knew other ways were possible, if they experienced a cultural growth, if they learned to forge their own futures and to fight for their own choices, they would easily go like 'Screw Lolth!' without thinking twice.
If all she wanted was them to fight for their freedom, why would she be hostile to Eilistraee, who is the symbol of the rebel who struggles for freedom, (or even Vhaeraun, who kinda does that too in his own questionable way) and why would she try to persecute anyone who starts understanding and manage to get away. She simply wants to be the absolute ruler of the lives of her followers, who must be brainwashed puppets in her hands: it's her desire to dominate everything and everyone in order to be 'teh one'.
Furthermore, at the end of the day trying to teach freedom with such oppression doesn't make much sense. Brainwashing people starting since their childhood leads to them actually believing that what they do is the way to live. The few smart enough to see the truth are deemed insane, heretics, persecuted and killed as example of failure of their ideas, basically making a mass rebellion extremely unlikely and difficult, even when you have people trying to spread new ideas from the inside of the society of from the outside as well. It's not like a tyrant who dominates with his/her iron fist, actually inviting rebellion, it's indoctrination which is a much more powerful tool of domination, because it leads people to believe that living under their conditions is just right and the only way to live.
If Lolth wanted the drow to learn freedom in the tough way, she would never do what I wrote in this post, it'd be just self-contradictory. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 05 Oct 2012 10:15:38 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 05 Oct 2012 : 17:48:09
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Doesn't Chaos = 'self-contradictory'?
Besides, its not my idea that Lolth is really testing them, and Drizzt is actually one of her favorites - it was in one of the novels (it was an in-setting theory being postulated by someone).
Anyhow, I don't necessarily agree with what I wrote - the point was that we can take canon and reinterpret it anyway we want for our games. For all we know Lolth and Shar are the 'good guys' (all about freedom of choice), and Mystra and Corellon are the 'tyrants'.
Doctor Doom (Marvel comics) is a bad guy, right? Did you know he rules the only nation on Earth with a zero crime rate? Latveria also has zero unemployment. He also once created a cure for drug addiction (because he doesn't want to rule a world full of drug addicts), but The Thing accidentally destroyed it. Doctor Doom is evil because he doesn't want anyone to have any freedom of choice - he is the ultimate tyrant. He does these things because he wants it to be a perfect world, and thinks he is the only one who can do that.
To me, Doctor Doom sounds far more like many of the 'good' gods in D&D. Freedom invites chaos - Mel Gibson's character in Braveheart embraced chaos. In this country, as the gov't takes away more and more of our privacy and freedom, our country becomes safer... but at what cost? At what point do we become another Soviet Union, or Korea? The only way to remove evil entirely is to take away more freedoms.
Chaos isn't evil - its a necessity against stagnation. Without it we have no evolution and invention. Chaos = life. In mythology, Hades is the most lawful of the Greek gods... perhaps the only lawful one. Death = law. So using these alignment interpretations, Lolth isn't evil at all - she is about freedom. The freedom that she, herself, felt she lost under Corellon's rule.
Shar, on the other hands, remains evil, because she wants the universe to be reverted to its pre-created state; she prefers the absolute oblivion of darkness and emptiness. Shar does not consider herself evil... she considers the rest of the universe an abomination. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 05 Oct 2012 17:51:52 |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 05 Oct 2012 : 18:31:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus
Another reason I feel this Article is meant to show at least some sympathy with Gruumsh is the bit about him fighting throughout the Dawn War and being a crucial part of the god's victory and not receiving any glory or acclaim for it, where as Corellon showed up late to the party, only after one of his playmates turned on him, and yet was hailed as a hero and a champion after the war was over. I can easily see how that can cause a lot of bitterness, especially between brothers, so the motivation becomes a lot clearer.
It reminds me of how several european nations have a problem with the way the U.S. presents the history of the second world war; the european nations fought throughout the whole thing, suffered greater losses, won greater victories. America shows up late, steals all the glory and claims all the credit in the history books for fifty years despite the fact that it was the Soviets that really won the war.
Note; I am an American, my grandfather fought in WW2, and I'm proud of my country's part in the conflict. But I can certainly sympathize with why others have a problem with it.
I understand how Gruumsh might feel bitter, but Corellon was also dealing with trouble in his own realm during the Dawn War, if I remember the article correctly. I'm not entirely against them being brothers, it's just a lot of the changes made feels so...4eish. I mean no offense to the design team, but a lot of it doesn't seem to mesh well with previous editions. I can understand they may want to embellish old lore, but why add completely new stuff that wasn't there before? Do I want them to completely erase everything that has happened? No, because a complete retcon would insult the authors who wrote in 4e. The Spellplague happened, even though I wasn't happy with it.
My biggest issue I guess is the whole afterlife thing (sorry, Erik), and where did the Lattice of Heaven come from? Was that in previous editions? It might just be a core thing, because I do have FRCG 4e, and it doesn't say anything about the Lattice of Heaven, though it does mention that the cosmos used to be in the shape of a great tree, and now the realms are drifting in the Astral Sea. With the Arvandor I am familiar with, once you are there, you don’t have to worry about dying again. I’ve always taken comfort in that when my favorite elven characters die *shrug*. But Erik did say he was only influenced by his love of the Realms, so what is written in the Plane Above does not necessarily apply to the Realms. I’m still a bit hung up on it though, lol. Obviously. I can deal with Corellon and Gruumsh being brothers, even if it does contradict previous lore. But the afterlife being temporary…not so much. I hope it either gets changed in 5e, though it doesn’t appear to apply to FR.
That all said, thank you for telling me about the article. Whatever my feelings towards it, it was very interesting, and I like how it was presented as a story.  |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3824 Posts |
Posted - 05 Oct 2012 : 18:42:46
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quote:
Doesn't Chaos = 'self-contradictory'?
Besides, its not my idea that Lolth is really testing them, and Drizzt is actually one of her favorites - it was in one of the novels (it was an in-setting theory being postulated by someone).
Anyhow, I don't necessarily agree with what I wrote - the point was that we can take canon and reinterpret it anyway we want for our games. For all we know Lolth and Shar are the 'good guys' (all about freedom of choice), and Mystra and Corellon are the 'tyrants'.
Doctor Doom (Marvel comics) is a bad guy, right? Did you know he rules the only nation on Earth with a zero crime rate? Latveria also has zero unemployment. He also once created a cure for drug addiction (because he doesn't want to rule a world full of drug addicts), but The Thing accidentally destroyed it. Doctor Doom is evil because he doesn't want anyone to have any freedom of choice - he is the ultimate tyrant. He does these things because he wants it to be a perfect world, and thinks he is the only one who can do that.
To me, Doctor Doom sounds far more like many of the 'good' gods in D&D. Freedom invites chaos - Mel Gibson's character in Braveheart embraced chaos. In this country, as the gov't takes away more and more of our privacy and freedom, our country becomes safer... but at what cost? At what point do we become another Soviet Union, or Korea? The only way to remove evil entirely is to take away more freedoms.
Chaos isn't evil - its a necessity against stagnation. Without it we have no evolution and invention. Chaos = life. In mythology, Hades is the most lawful of the Greek gods... perhaps the only lawful one. Death = law. So using these alignment interpretations, Lolth isn't evil at all - she is about freedom. The freedom that she, herself, felt she lost under Corellon's rule.
Shar, on the other hands, remains evil, because she wants the universe to be reverted to its pre-created state; she prefers the absolute oblivion of darkness and emptiness. Shar does not consider herself evil... she considers the rest of the universe an abomination.
Ahem, isn't Lolth like the contrary of freedom? I mean, look at what she does: denies her people the important choices about their own lives; brainwashes them and limits (actually tries to delete) their free and critical thinking (except about how to best kill/dominate/make suffer someone), cuts any possibility for self expression and fulfillment. Furthermore, one of the concepts at the base of her dogma/society is that the individual itself doesn't matter and has no value, as it is given by how much 'powah' one has on other people. You know, quite the contrary of freedom. Her children are the ones who stand and fight for it, which brings to the infighting in the DS (about her tests, IIRC they are to see who is the 'most strongest ever, so that only the ones who 'deserve' it can survive', basically natural selection pushed way too far).
Also, Chaos =/= freedom. The former is the absence of any ordinated structure (which, if you look at Lolth, is definitely not the case. So I really don't understand why she is deemed 'chaotic'. Her insistence in promoting infighting, betrayals, deceptions etc... is the only thing that could make her CE), the latter is the ability to make one's own choices without influence/oppression. Freedom is compatible with order, when it doesn't become oppressive (i.e. when the order is there to protect everyone's freedom by limiting choices that could harm it. Yeah, this denies a little part of the freedom -the harmful choices themselves-, but it is a compromise). So Lolth being chaotic doesn't mean that she promotes freedom. Also, while change is needed to advance and avoid stagnation (and ironically, the lolthite drow basically stand for stagnation), it doesn't have to happen chaotically.
Finally, about the self-contradictoriness of Lolth's behavior (assuming that teaching the drow to break free is what she wishes to do) being justified by chaos: chaotic =/= self contradictory. Even if you lack ordinate structures in your thoughts, behavior or whatever, it doesn't automatically imply that you must contradict your own goal with actions...
Contradicting oneself with choices could mean stupidity, cluelessness, being tricked into doing so, freaking out, insanity etc... but not automatically being a chaotic person.
About the possibility to interpret lore as seen fit, I obviously agree. I was talking about what Lolth's actions in canon tell about her. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 05 Oct 2012 18:54:10 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 05 Oct 2012 : 18:55:18
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Everyone is entitled to their opinion.
I stated earlier, perhaps the society Drow live in is the test - if they stay, they fail. If you look at her desires - to take over everything - how does it make sense they stayed locked in a stratified society? The only way for them to ever 'move forward' is to push their boundaries, which they rarely ever try to do.
Its kinda hard to 'rule the world' when you almost never leave your cave. Its almost as if she is torturing them into leaving - one of her basic tenets is to eventually leave the Underdark and spread across the surface once again. Don't you think she is tired of waiting? Drow society was engineered to create a race of super-killing machines... and all they do now is sit home and fight with each other. I don't think that was what she had in mind.
As I said, its all how you spin things. Corellon and the Seldarine wronged her and her children - it is only fitting they once again take their place in the sun, and put the egotistical surface elves in their proper place. Dark Elves did not cause The Dark Disaster - they were victims of it. It is high time the fairy elves were made to pay for their crimes. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3824 Posts |
Posted - 05 Oct 2012 : 19:09:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Everyone is entitled to their opinion.
Certainly.
quote:
I stated earlier, perhaps the society Drow live in is the test - if they stay, they fail. If you look at her desires - to take over everything - how does it make sense they stayed locked in a stratified society? The only way for them to ever 'move forward' is to push their boundaries, which they rarely ever try to do.
Its kinda hard to 'rule the world' when you almost never leave your cave. Its almost as if she is torturing them into leaving - one of her basic tenets is to eventually leave the Underdark and spread across the surface once again. Don't you think she is tired of waiting? Drow society was engineered to create a race of super-killing machines... and all they do now is sit home and fight with each other. I don't think that was what she had in mind.
If the drow realized what Lolth does to them and managed to get free, she would be without followers in like .01 sec. Also, again, why would she force them into being brainwashed, blind and close minded as they are to get to her goal, if it was teaching the drow to be free? A different education would work miracles, while doing what she does causes the drow to believe that their lifestyle is the right one, they have no desire of breaking free from it because they are brainwashed into believing that the alternatives to it are inferior and worthless. This cut most possibilities of freedom, except for the ones smart enough to think critically despite the environment they live in. Drow society is tailored by Lolth to craft her perfect tools of revenge, that's what the tests are for (so I agree with you when you say that the society itself is the test, but IMO not a test to encourage them to freedom).
quote:
As I said, its all how you spin things. Corellon and the Seldarine wronged her and her children - it is only fitting they once again take their place in the sun, and put the egotistical surface elves in their proper place. Dark Elves did not cause The Dark Disaster - they were victims of it. It is high time the fairy elves were made to pay for their crimes.
This I can easily see be true. But Lolth actually gained followers after the Dark Disaster and the Miyeritari didn't give a damn about her AFAIK (and even the fairy elves who lived there were destroyed by the cataclysm). Nonetheless her revenge against the Seldarine would be a very valid motivation for her to force the drow in their life: have them become her pawns to use in her game. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 06 Oct 2012 14:42:37 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 05 Oct 2012 : 19:24:24
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Okay, I just wanted it stated for the record that I am doing a 'devils advocate' here, and may or may not agree with everything I am putting forth.
What happens when you put a bunch of hardened criminals (murders, rapists, etc) in a prison together? You need a LOT of discipline to maintain control.
Suppose we went to one of the worst federal prisons in the country, and in the middle of the night marched all the guards out and opened all the cell & prison doors. What do you think happens the next morning? What do you think happens to everyone within a ten mile radius of that prison within 24 hours? Within a hundred miles in a week? How about if we do that to every jail in the USA on the same night?
Now picture the Underdark being a super-prison, and take all the locks off the damn thing. Its the above scenario multiplied a thousand fold. Perhaps Lolth doesn't care for 'her chldren' - perhaps she has basically created a powderkeg of killing-machines and is just waiting to light the fuse.
Funny I should put it that way... doesn't the burning map in the RotU trailer remind you of a fuse being lit? 
Maybe you are right, and all she cares about is revenge. In the past 12,000 years she has crafted an immensely powerful WMD - the Drow. And maybe I am right as well... maybe the idea was to get them to hate her so much that when the shackles came off they would run amok. You don't control an atomic explosion - you just create the bomb and get the hell out of the way. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 05 Oct 2012 19:26:08 |
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Rise of the Underdark
