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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
 Posted - 02 Oct 2012 : 01:31:57
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| While I'm here I feel I should give my opinion on this whole mess; I like it. Anything that gives me the opportunity to slaughter drow en mass, I am all for. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
The Roleplayer's Gazebo;
http://theroleplayersgazebo.yuku.com/directory#.Ub4hvvlJOAY |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 02 Oct 2012 : 03:40:41
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| I miss Vhaeraun and Eilistraee. Most of the other pantheons are just that, pantheons. The drow "pantheon" only has one deity now, unless you cound Ghaunadaur. Still, I've missed drow involvement, so I'm open to this. However, the Sundering is following closely on its heels, in terms of the novels, if not the years in the Realms themselves. This means two big events for readers, so we'll see. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 02 Oct 2012 : 16:18:44
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| Couple years ago I started a campaign where the pc's would stumble across a plot by agents of the nine hells to undermind Lolth's church in drow society and convert them to devil worship. Might put some effort into reviving it depending on where this Rise of the Underdark business goes. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
The Roleplayer's Gazebo;
http://theroleplayersgazebo.yuku.com/directory#.Ub4hvvlJOAY |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 02 Oct 2012 : 19:50:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Therise
quote:
Originally posted by phranctoast
Sword of the Gods: Spinner of Lies
"Memories of his past incarnations haunt Demascus, even as he searches for stolen portraits that contain the trapped souls of demigods. Meanwhile, drow creep beneath the city of Airspur, intent on precipitating war between Akanûl and a rival nation. As Demascus attempts to win freedom from the ghost of his murdered lover, he agrees to thwart the drow’s secret scheme, sending him on a trail that stretches between the Demonweb, Airspur, and an island that appears on no map.
I just finished this novel, and found it to be disappointing on a number of levels. The main characters were so inhuman (a deva, a windsoul, etc.) that they were difficult to identify with. Additionally, the main character had so much power (or in some cases, deus ex machina saves) that nothing really felt tense, just forced and strung along. The dialogue was often snippy and juvenile, and the multiple plots didn't converge well. One plotline, which would have been the main one if not for the totally ineffectual drow and their goal, felt tacked on at the end. And it introduced new lore that I didn't much like either. As part of the Rise of the Underdark it's much more of an early glimpse into Lolth's plan rather than a true start; too much of the rest of the novel had the main deva character whine and bemoan his existence.
Accent, mine... THIS!
I sometimes get the idea that authors have an idea for a story, and WotC has an idea for an RSE event, and they approach the author and say can you give us a novel about 'X,Y, & Z', and they say, "sure!"
And then we get the novel they wanted to write, with a few paragraphs and maybe a chapter or two giving a nod to the RSE event happening 'just off camera'.
I've gotten that impression from a number of FR novels over the years... it almost felt like their were two stories trying to take place, and one was very forced. I think it actually happens more then we notice, but some authors are able to hide it better.
Thus, the RotU series seems to me to be an independent cluster of novels where this exact formula was applied. Sadly, I got a bad feeling the Sundering series may be along these lines. On the other hand, this might be preferable to the really bad WotSQ series, where the characters were completely different people from book to book.
So I guess the bottom line is, once 5e comes out, they should avoid RSE-based novels like the plague (pun intended). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 03 Oct 2012 03:09:09 |
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 02 Oct 2012 : 22:53:25
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| I recently read Charon's Claw, which has a drow subplot, and actually had a similar impression; the drow subplot was tacked on. Actually, no, my impression was that it was a total set up for the next book. In fact, if it weren't for the fact that I knew that it was the third book of the trilogy, I would have sworn it was the first book of an entirely different trilogy. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
The Roleplayer's Gazebo;
http://theroleplayersgazebo.yuku.com/directory#.Ub4hvvlJOAY |
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Eilserus
Master of Realmslore
USA
1446 Posts |
Posted - 03 Oct 2012 : 00:49:59
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| I hope we get an ending or some sort of closure with this rise of the underdark bit. It started out as what seemed a big deal, but seems to have fizzled out. Well, maybe that's not the right word. We have several novels that take place within the arc, small stories separate from the overall theme, which is fine. I just hope we see it closed up. I've read all the novels except The Demon Weave, hopefully we see what's up then. |
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Sightless
Senior Scribe
USA
608 Posts |
Posted - 03 Oct 2012 : 02:09:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
quote:
Originally posted by Therise
quote:
Originally posted by phranctoast
Sword of the Gods: Spinner of Lies
"Memories of his past incarnations haunt Demascus, even as he searches for stolen portraits that contain the trapped souls of demigods. Meanwhile, drow creep beneath the city of Airspur, intent on precipitating war between Akanûl and a rival nation. As Demascus attempts to win freedom from the ghost of his murdered lover, he agrees to thwart the drow’s secret scheme, sending him on a trail that stretches between the Demonweb, Airspur, and an island that appears on no map.
I just finished this novel, and found it to be disappointing on a number of levels. The main characters were so inhuman (a deva, a windsoul, etc.) that they were difficult to identify with. Additionally, the main character had so much power (or in some cases, deus ex machina saves) that nothing really felt tense, just forced and strung along. The dialogue was often snippy and juvenile, and the multiple plots didn't converge well. One plotline, which would have been the main one if not for the totally ineffectual drow and their goal, felt tacked on at the end. And it introduced new lore that I didn't much like either. As part of the Rise of the Underdark it's much more of an early glimpse into Lolth's plan rather than a true start; too much of the rest of the novel had the main deva character whine and bemoan his existence.
Accent, mine... THIS!
I sometimes get the idea that authors have an idea for a story, and WotC has an idea for an RSE event, and they approach the author and say can you give us a novel about 'X,Y, & Z', and they say, "sure!"
And then we get the novel they wanted to write, with a few paragraphs and maybe a chapter or two giving a nod to the RSE event happening 'just off camera'.
I've gotten that impression from a number of FR novels over the years... if almost felt like their were two stories trying to take place, and one was very forced. I think it actually happens more then we notice, but some authors are able to hide it better.
Thus, the RotU series seems to me to be an independent cluster of novels where this exact formula was applied. Sadly, I got a bad feeling the Sundering series may be along these lines. On the other hand, this might be preferable to the really bad WotSQ series, where the characters were completely different people from book to book.
So I guess the bottom line is, once 5e comes out, they should avoid RSE-based novels like the plague (pun intended).
There are moments when I get so lost by what you folks are talking about, and then I have to do the truely stupid thing and inform you of it.
So, since I'm going down this hill like a skier that's taking a tumble and it's just going to get worse as I go here it is,
What is the WotSQ? |
We choose to live a lie, when we see with, & not through the eye.
Every decision, no matter the evidence, is a leap of faith; if it were not, then it wouldn't be a choice at all. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 03 Oct 2012 : 02:29:00
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War of the Spider Queen. A series featuring the drow and the crisis known as Lloth's Silence. There are 6 six books in the series, penned by 6 different authors. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 03 Oct 2012 : 03:22:52
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Featuring a bunch of characters that have the same names from book to book... but thats about it.
If you ever happen to read it, be prepared for a mind-twisting emotional roller-coaster - characters you care about in one novel you absolutely loath in the next, and vice-versa. Probably one of the worst cases of mass multiple personality disorder in Faerûnian history.
So maybe a series about all different characters 'loosely connected' (read: barely connected through some tacked-on subplot) is preferable to a botched group attempt. I am not saying that those novels were bad individually, but they didn't work together cohesively.
You know... its funny. When I first started to become a 'rabid FR fanboi' I wanted to see more interconnectivity between the main characters from any author and the wider world, but as time has gone on, I have found I usually* greatly dislike when authors use each other's characters - it feels 'wrong'. So 'small stories' written in their own little geographic bubble seems to work best, without 'rocking the boat' or disturbing any canon.
IMHO, of course.
* There are notable exceptions; for instance, Elaine Cunningham can write 'Ed characters' as if she were Ed herself... no mean feat. I've rarely seen two authors writing styles blend so seamlessly. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 03 Oct 2012 : 04:05:58
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I'm not sure I agree to that. While I loved some of their individual works, I was rather disappointed with City of Splendors. Though I suppose it's more because of the mostly boring characters and unappealing plot than their writing styles. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Sightless
Senior Scribe
USA
608 Posts |
Posted - 03 Oct 2012 : 04:07:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
War of the Spider Queen. A series featuring the drow and the crisis known as Lloth's Silence. There are 6 six books in the series, penned by 6 different authors.
*expression of I've just eaten something horrible*
(Warning you are about to see Sightless swear)
As this is a sight and Sightless is not using a speech to text system, you don't actually hear Sightless swearing. The reason is that someone just purchased him several of the novels of that series on tape, and he just finished listening to the first book in that series. He is truely questioning now if he wants to listen to the rest of said series having learned this.
(Note, Sightless often refers to himself in the third person when he i very disapointed/angry, or generally upset.) s |
We choose to live a lie, when we see with, & not through the eye.
Every decision, no matter the evidence, is a leap of faith; if it were not, then it wouldn't be a choice at all. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 03 Oct 2012 : 04:11:59
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| Individually I enjoyed them - take it at that. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 03 Oct 2012 : 04:13:12
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| I actually really liked War of the Spider Queen, despite the different authors. I didn't care too much for the ending, but there were two follow-up trilogies, Lady Penitent and Empryean Odyssey, that I enjoyed as well. I am aware that others will disagree with me, however. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 03 Oct 2012 : 04:20:59
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quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
I actually really liked War of the Spider Queen, despite the different authors. I didn't care too much for the ending, but there were two follow-up trilogies, Lady Penitent and Empryean Odyssey, that I enjoyed as well. I am aware that others will disagree with me, however.
I read 3 of the 6; Books 5, 1, and 2---in that order. And I liked them. As for the follow-ups...Meh. Didn't care for them. In fact, I hated TEO, specially the crude way of resurrecting Pharaun. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 03 Oct 2012 : 04:27:22
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| Okay, THAT I can agree with. I was so excited when Pharaun was resurrected, and it really disappointed me when he was killed again, espcially since it was implied he was being tortured in Lolth's realm. And he said Kael reminded him of Ryld, which again implies that he has not seen Ryld, even though they are both in the same realm. TEO was far from perfect, and I hated the ending, but as a whole, I liked it, and I recommend it because it is a follow-up series to WotSQ. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 03 Oct 2012 : 06:37:18
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Forgive my two posts in a row. I joined this conversation kind of late, and while I skimmed some of the earlier post in the thread, I'm too tired right now to read all of them, hehe sorry.
But anyway, the more I think about Rise of the Underdark, the more I mixed feelings I have about it. At first I was excited to see the drow back in action, because they've been fairly quiet in 4e (save for Drizzt). I was upset by the death of Vhaeraun and Eilistraee, and whether Lady Penitent is considered canon or not, I've been dying to hear more about the results from it. It was such a cliff-hanger, IMO. But here's the thing, which I think I've mentioned before in passing, but I'll say it again: the Sundering seems to be following closely on the heels of Rise of the Underdark. Year wise, it will be taking place several years later, but as far as the novels go, after RotU, the next "big thing" seems to be the Sundering, which I also have mixed feelings about. I’ve already shared my opinions on the fact that I actually LIKE the gods being involved, though I’ve thought about it and if there is less petty squabbling among them, I am all for that, because it means they are less likely to die. And if the Sundering is going to bring back some of the dead gods, I’m all for that, too. Vhaeraun, Eilistraee, and Mask in particular. I would just like to know for sure which of the gods there. I’ve come to the conclusion that as long as it is clear which of the gods are still around (even if it as simple as a list), I’m okay with them being less intrusive. I’ve said this several times, but it’s something I feel strongly about. This is for the sake of the novels more than the game, since DMs have always been able to choose which—if any—gods to involve.
Anyway, Lolth’s grab for the Weave sounds like the last hoorah before AO goes “sit!” to all the gods. Although I could be wrong, Lolth is going to fail in her attempt to control the Weave, which IMO, is a good thing. In other threads, people of said the god(ess) of magic should be neutral, and I agree. Lolth is certainly not neutral. So if she really is doomed to failure, why bother with the Rise of the Underdark? If it is more about the drow trying to reclaim the surface, then why not just make it about that, rather than Lolth trying to *ahem* Weave her own web? And what about the future of the drow? I get the impression that some people are tired of drow involvement, but I personally like novels involving drow, as nasty as they are. Some of my favorite characters (not just Drizzt), are drow, though elves will always be my favorite. If the drow clamber up to the surface through Myth Drannor, however, I’m not going to be happy. The elven civilizations have suffered enough, leave them alone! Myth Drannor does not need to fall –again-.
I’ve gotten the impression lately that some of my opinions are in the minority, but oh well. They will stay my opinions. I love what I love about the Realms, and if we’re to share what makes the Realms for us, then this is mine. Thanks to anyone who read this.
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Sweet water and light laughter |
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canikoblivan
Acolyte
Turkey
43 Posts |
Posted - 04 Oct 2012 : 09:49:43
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| I just don't believe that Wizards would promote an event like RotU, publish all these novels and sourcebooks etc. just for Lolth to fail. What if Lolth finally succeeds and merges with Mystra? What if Ao commands it so in the new tablets of fate that he's going to reforge? |
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Lord Bane
Senior Scribe
Germany
479 Posts |
Posted - 04 Oct 2012 : 10:47:03
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Oh, i can see Lolth fail, after all Wizard still follows the "heroes save the day" doctrine, which is a whole different topic to talk about and merging Lolth with Mystra would upset many people because Lolth is the iconic drow goddess and having Lolth forced on surface worshippers of magic is not a move to appease the customers who give them a second chance after the Spellplague desaster.
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The driving force in the multiverse is evil, for it forces good to act. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
37018 Posts |
Posted - 04 Oct 2012 : 10:47:05
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quote:
Originally posted by canikoblivan
I just don't believe that Wizards would promote an event like RotU, publish all these novels and sourcebooks etc. just for Lolth to fail. What if Lolth finally succeeds and merges with Mystra? What if Ao commands it so in the new tablets of fate that he's going to reforge?
Keep in mind they published three hardbound modules where the PCs can keep Mystra from being killed... and then killed her offstage. |
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
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canikoblivan
Acolyte
Turkey
43 Posts |
Posted - 04 Oct 2012 : 10:55:49
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| Yes, I have bitter memories about that one.. But still, part of me wants Lolth to succeed, just to see what follows. |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3824 Posts |
Posted - 04 Oct 2012 : 12:59:06
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Lolth is a really annoying villain to me. Her motivations basically are 'I do it for teh evulz and to boost my ego', which makes her a totally uninteresting foe (IMO, ofc), not worthy of being the keeper of the Weave (not to mention that, as I see it, a deity of magic should be neutral...). Add to this that she is the new Mystra wannabe and the result is something that I'd rather avoid.
Then I could be wrong and the outcome of this RotU could be interesting, but honestly I hope to see Lolth utterly failing, maybe defeated by Shar for trying to beat her at her own game, or by Mystra who must be sick and tired of usurpers at this point... |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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phranctoast
Learned Scribe
USA
151 Posts |
Posted - 04 Oct 2012 : 14:33:14
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| Sounds like quite the chaotic deity... ;) |
Currently reading: Spider and Stone by Jaleigh Johnson: Sequel to Mistshore |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3824 Posts |
Posted - 04 Oct 2012 : 15:55:24
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Nah, chaotic doesn't mean having no real motivation for one's own action.
That's chaotic stupid (and makes for a bland character, IMO). |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 04 Oct 2012 : 16:48:51
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Ambition
Its why she does everything. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3824 Posts |
Posted - 04 Oct 2012 : 18:13:14
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| ^I.e. to boost her ego, to convince and delude herself that her megalomaniac idea of herself being 'the one' is real -which fails as motivation and leads to a boring and way too egocentric character IMO- (the 'mwahahah I shall conquer the world!!1!!' cliché). Trying to dominate everything and everyone for the sake of doing so makes no sense. When someone starts behaving along these line is because he/she wants to accomplish something -be it good or bad- that will lead to his/her well being and happiness. Lolth does it just 'because' (and drow do the same), like dragons with their hoard. I even remember reading somewhere that according to her happiness and contentment are for the weak, because they imply being satisfied with the power one currently has, and it is obviously unacceptable. This is not really villainous, but kind of stupid and makes for a depth-less enemy. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 04 Oct 2012 18:20:45 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 04 Oct 2012 : 18:34:52
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Have you read Elaine Cunningham's Evermeet novel?
I get the distinct impression that Lolth was getting the , "there there, good doggy" treatment from Corellon, or at least, thats how she perceived it to be. She was his consort, and yet he went to the other goddesses in his pantheon for any serious decision-making. Whether he meant to or not, she felt she was playing second-fiddle to everyone else, and was under-appreciated. She snapped, and turned on him... and everyone else. She is still trying to prove herself - she is the worst kind of over-achiever.
She is actually a pitiable creature, and thats how Corellon felt toward her, which made her even more nuts (and still does).
Not realistic? Is a women who tries to have her husband killed realistic? How about one who drives her kids into a lake? Chaotic-stupid is a very real alignment. When people 'snap' (and deities are just uber-powerful people), logic often goes right out the window so they can achieve their desires. Lolth is insane (and vain), its as simple as that.
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"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 04 Oct 2012 18:36:45 |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 04 Oct 2012 : 19:41:12
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| I've read Evermeet and it remains one of my favorite FR novels, but it has been several years since I've read it. I don't Corellon was patting her on the head so much as she was being immature. She was power-hungry and was jealous of Sehanine, both because of her power, and she thought Corellon was giving her special attention. In the end, Lolth caused her own misery. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 04 Oct 2012 : 19:51:04
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I am not saying thats precisely what he was doing - I am saying that that is the way she perceived it.
Believe me, this particular relationship/argument hits home for me. Trust me, it is entirely possible to be 'condescending' without ever realizing you are being that way. The damage wrought by such a relationship creates a person who has low self-esteem and the desire to prove themselves (to a fault). It took me 20 years to figure this out... Corellon's had millenia... I am sure he is as aware of his faults as I am of mine.
You can do a lot of damage by accident - "the road to hell is paved with good intentions."  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 04 Oct 2012 19:52:04 |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3824 Posts |
Posted - 04 Oct 2012 : 19:57:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
[...]
Not realistic? Is a women who tries to have her husband killed realistic? How about one who drives her kids into a lake? Chaotic-stupid is a very real alignment. When people 'snap' (and deities are just uber-powerful people), logic often goes right out the window so they can achieve their desires. Lolth is insane (and vain), its as simple as that.
That part in 'Evermeet' tells an elven myth, I doubt that the reality of things is actually that (especially considering that we're talking about deities).
But what you said is actually my point. She is kind of vain, that's basically what I said in my previous post. But I find it hard to see her as a pitiable creature, as she doesn't constantly plot to 'conquer the world' because she freaked out, but thinking her actions out. What bores me about Lolth is the reason of her behavior: I'm not fond of villains driven by motivations which reduce to 'because' (or the 'the world will be mine, so my ego will be boosted to the maximum!!' cliché, which is her case).
Also even if chaotic stupid happens in reality, it is still boring, not something I enjoy to see. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 04 Oct 2012 20:01:45 |
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Rise of the Underdark
