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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3824 Posts |
 Posted - 05 Oct 2012 : 19:41:48
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Okay, I just wanted it stated for the record that I am doing a 'devils advocate' here, and may or may not agree with everything I am putting forth.
What happens when you put a bunch of hardened criminals (murders, rapists, etc) in a prison together? You need a LOT of discipline to maintain control.
Suppose we went to one of the worst federal prisons in the country, and in the middle of the night marched all the guards out and opened all the cell & prison doors. What do you think happens the next morning? What do you think happens to everyone within a ten mile radius of that prison within 24 hours? Within a hundred miles in a week? How about if we do that to every jail in the USA on the same night?
Now picture the Underdark being a super-prison, and take all the locks off the damn thing. Its the above scenario multiplied a thousand fold. Perhaps Lolth doesn't care for 'her chldren' - perhaps she has basically created a powderkeg of killing-machines and is just waiting to light the fuse.
Funny I should put it that way... doesn't the burning map in the RotU trailer remind you of a fuse being lit? 
Maybe you are right, and all she cares about is revenge. In the past 12,000 years she has crafted an immensely powerful WMD - the Drow. And maybe I am right as well... maybe the idea was to get them to hate her so much that when the shackles came off they would run amok. You don't control an atomic explosion - you just create the bomb and get the hell out of the way.
Yes, exactly my thought. Drow are her perfect tools, she dominates every single aspect of their existence, denying them any kind of freedom and choice for their life, so that they can turn in what she needs to become 'the one' and to get her revenge (as these two things are all that she cares about). Even tho I still have doubts about the hating part, Lolth is pretty much defined by wanting to control and have everything and everyone prostrated at her feets. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 05 Oct 2012 19:44:31 |
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 05 Oct 2012 : 21:31:27
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quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus
Another reason I feel this Article is meant to show at least some sympathy with Gruumsh is the bit about him fighting throughout the Dawn War and being a crucial part of the god's victory and not receiving any glory or acclaim for it, where as Corellon showed up late to the party, only after one of his playmates turned on him, and yet was hailed as a hero and a champion after the war was over. I can easily see how that can cause a lot of bitterness, especially between brothers, so the motivation becomes a lot clearer.
It reminds me of how several european nations have a problem with the way the U.S. presents the history of the second world war; the european nations fought throughout the whole thing, suffered greater losses, won greater victories. America shows up late, steals all the glory and claims all the credit in the history books for fifty years despite the fact that it was the Soviets that really won the war.
Note; I am an American, my grandfather fought in WW2, and I'm proud of my country's part in the conflict. But I can certainly sympathize with why others have a problem with it.
I understand how Gruumsh might feel bitter, but Corellon was also dealing with trouble in his own realm during the Dawn War, if I remember the article correctly. I'm not entirely against them being brothers, it's just a lot of the changes made feels so...4eish. I mean no offense to the design team, but a lot of it doesn't seem to mesh well with previous editions. I can understand they may want to embellish old lore, but why add completely new stuff that wasn't there before? Do I want them to completely erase everything that has happened? No, because a complete retcon would insult the authors who wrote in 4e. The Spellplague happened, even though I wasn't happy with it.
My biggest issue I guess is the whole afterlife thing (sorry, Erik), and where did the Lattice of Heaven come from? Was that in previous editions? It might just be a core thing, because I do have FRCG 4e, and it doesn't say anything about the Lattice of Heaven, though it does mention that the cosmos used to be in the shape of a great tree, and now the realms are drifting in the Astral Sea. With the Arvandor I am familiar with, once you are there, you don’t have to worry about dying again. I’ve always taken comfort in that when my favorite elven characters die *shrug*. But Erik did say he was only influenced by his love of the Realms, so what is written in the Plane Above does not necessarily apply to the Realms. I’m still a bit hung up on it though, lol. Obviously. I can deal with Corellon and Gruumsh being brothers, even if it does contradict previous lore. But the afterlife being temporary…not so much. I hope it either gets changed in 5e, though it doesn’t appear to apply to FR.
That all said, thank you for telling me about the article. Whatever my feelings towards it, it was very interesting, and I like how it was presented as a story. 
In relation for what Corellon was doing for the first bit of the Dawn War, it's actually explained both in that article and in the Plane Above(though again, this is primarily Points of Light lore not strictly applicable to the realms) that for the first bit of it, all he was doing was "dallying about" with Lolth and Sehanine, which I've taken as a euphemism, though I assume they were frolicking through the fields and forests of the Feywild in between dallying sessions.
It wasn't until Lolth's betrayal, which happened some time later(though while the Dawn War was still going on), that Corellon actually had problems, and only once he defeated Lolth(a relatively minor thing when weighed against the scale of the Dawn War) that he joined the war.
Keep in mind that when talking about the Dawn War, the sheer scale of the event is staggering. It lasted millennia, single battles lasted centuries. Gruumsh fought from start to finish, where as Corellon sat on the sidelines with the cheerleaders for the first half, fought off one of the cheerleaders trying to stab him through half time, and then came in and played the second half.
Anyway, while I'm being helpful, you might also be interested in Dragon Magazine #386 which has articles on followers of Corellon and Sehanine, again, not strictly Realmslore but you might find them of interest regardless. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
The Roleplayer's Gazebo;
http://theroleplayersgazebo.yuku.com/directory#.Ub4hvvlJOAY |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 05 Oct 2012 : 22:34:03
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So Gruumsh became what the world needed, and Corellon became what the world wanted. Interesting take.
Not precisely my thoughts on the matter, but I can work with that. I think I would spin it this way, though: When Gruumsh was about to deliver the final blow, Araushnee felt last-minute regret, and she distracted Gruumsh (making them bitter enemies forevermore). In that same moment, Sehanine cast her light upon Corellon, and it was this that he took for his savior (when it was really Lolth). After the moment of distraction was over, Corellon - now reinvigorated - attacked Gruumsh relentlessly and won.
From that point on, Sehanine 'won' Corellon's heart, because he thought she and she alone had helped him. The truth is that Gruush really won that fight, but he was stopped from delivering the killing blow by Lolth... the elves only think Corellon won. Gruumsh now hates Lolth's guts, and Lolth feels doubly betrayed, because she set-aside her own spiteful victory to save Corellon, and Sehanine got the accolades.
Here's the problem with all of that - Sehanine is Selune in FR, which means she had to have been involved in the Primordial war earlier on. Since Lolth hates/is jealous of Sehanine, and Shar hates/is jealous of selune, that makes Lolth Shar's elven counterpart (which may be why things are coming to a head between them in 5e/RotU). Could it be that the 'Sun' that was nearly extinguished was actually Corellon? That the human myths are a corrupted version of the Elven?
Think about it - Lolth got the ball rolling and nearly had Corellon 'extinguished'. He represent the Golden (Sun) Elves. Lolth is darkness - she represents the dark Elves. Sehanine/Selune represets the moon/silver Elves. The 'darkness' tried to extinguish the 'sun', but at the last moment something intervened and the sun (and world) was saved - this shoe-horns nicely into the human creation myths. it could very well be that the War of Light & Darkness is retelling of the elven myths with a more humanocentric spin.
The 'Moon' gets the credit for saving 'the light', and the darkness (and destroyer, represented by Gruumsh) flees to lick their wounds, and harbor their grudges. Sure I had to shave a few corners off to make it all work, but its plausible.
The deities in question are really all just (racial) aspects of ancient archtypes. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 05 Oct 2012 22:37:12 |
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Sightless
Senior Scribe
USA
608 Posts |
Posted - 06 Oct 2012 : 00:31:49
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Righting this left handed, right's busy keeping my eyes from bleeding, response time will be slow.
Here's my problem with all of this, intelectually I mean, One eyed, was always one eyed. There's way to many 2e sources that say this. So I have an issue with the elf taking out an eye, when he was supposed to have only one eye. I mean coming on, they took the guy straight out of the Song of Zetathon, even the whole lot situation.
This brings me up to issue number 2, accoriding to the lot tale, both the D&D situation the two gods weren't enemies before the lot drawing. So, my question is this, since I'm working hard to put as much stuff in a compriable whole is possible, would the events of the fight between the two have happened after the lot drawing, and how does any of this affect the tale mentioned in dragon magazine.
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We choose to live a lie, when we see with, & not through the eye.
Every decision, no matter the evidence, is a leap of faith; if it were not, then it wouldn't be a choice at all. |
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Sightless
Senior Scribe
USA
608 Posts |
Posted - 06 Oct 2012 : 00:55:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus
Another reason I feel this Article is meant to show at least some sympathy with Gruumsh is the bit about him fighting throughout the Dawn War and being a crucial part of the god's victory and not receiving any glory or acclaim for it, where as Corellon showed up late to the party, only after one of his playmates turned on him, and yet was hailed as a hero and a champion after the war was over. I can easily see how that can cause a lot of bitterness, especially between brothers, so the motivation becomes a lot clearer.
It reminds me of how several european nations have a problem with the way the U.S. presents the history of the second world war; the european nations fought throughout the whole thing, suffered greater losses, won greater victories. America shows up late, steals all the glory and claims all the credit in the history books for fifty years despite the fact that it was the Soviets that really won the war.
Note; I am an American, my grandfather fought in WW2, and I'm proud of my country's part in the conflict. But I can certainly sympathize with why others have a problem with it.
I understand how Gruumsh might feel bitter, but Corellon was also dealing with trouble in his own realm during the Dawn War, if I remember the article correctly. I'm not entirely against them being brothers, it's just a lot of the changes made feels so...4eish. I mean no offense to the design team, but a lot of it doesn't seem to mesh well with previous editions. I can understand they may want to embellish old lore, but why add completely new stuff that wasn't there before? Do I want them to completely erase everything that has happened? No, because a complete retcon would insult the authors who wrote in 4e. The Spellplague happened, even though I wasn't happy with it.
My biggest issue I guess is the whole afterlife thing (sorry, Erik), and where did the Lattice of Heaven come from? Was that in previous editions? It might just be a core thing, because I do have FRCG 4e, and it doesn't say anything about the Lattice of Heaven, though it does mention that the cosmos used to be in the shape of a great tree, and now the realms are drifting in the Astral Sea. With the Arvandor I am familiar with, once you are there, you don’t have to worry about dying again. I’ve always taken comfort in that when my favorite elven characters die *shrug*. But Erik did say he was only influenced by his love of the Realms, so what is written in the Plane Above does not necessarily apply to the Realms. I’m still a bit hung up on it though, lol. Obviously. I can deal with Corellon and Gruumsh being brothers, even if it does contradict previous lore. But the afterlife being temporary…not so much. I hope it either gets changed in 5e, though it doesn’t appear to apply to FR.
That all said, thank you for telling me about the article. Whatever my feelings towards it, it was very interesting, and I like how it was presented as a story.
In relation for what Corellon was doing for the first bit of the Dawn War, it's actually explained both in that article and in the Plane Above(though again, this is primarily Points of Light lore not strictly applicable to the realms) that for the first bit of it, all he was doing was "dallying about" with Lolth and Sehanine, which I've taken as a euphemism, though I assume they were frolicking through the fields and forests of the Feywild in between dallying sessions.
It wasn't until Lolth's betrayal, which happened some time later(though while the Dawn War was still going on), that Corellon actually had problems, and only once he defeated Lolth(a relatively minor thing when weighed against the scale of the Dawn War) that he joined the war.
Keep in mind that when talking about the Dawn War, the sheer scale of the event is staggering. It lasted millennia, single battles lasted centuries. Gruumsh fought from start to finish, where as Corellon sat on the sidelines with the cheerleaders for the first half, fought off one of the cheerleaders trying to stab him through half time, and then came in and played the second half.
Anyway, while I'm being helpful, you might also be interested in Dragon Magazine #386 which has articles on followers of Corellon and Sehanine, again, not strictly Realmslore but you might find them of interest regardless.
Simpathy, I'm not so sure, exxplanation, yes. Just as the lot situation explained why the orcs seemed to wind up in the worst spot of land anywhere, and why they are mad with just about everything else. It's also once again, something taken straight of Norce mythos with the first men and the war of the giants, and the battle for the world fire. It's also vary similar to the halfmen tales and the sun-prision tales that most of the Navaho talk about. Sometimes I feel like they took all the stuff from Norce and a few other mythologies about orcs/ orks, and halfmen put them all together and tried to create a race with as few redeming qualities as possible. OK, not quite that much, and maybe I'm a bit tired of what is beautiful is good running round in my fantasy.
Now, about Lolth, let me through this out there for the sake of contemplation and contemplation only.
Let's say for a moment that her goal is to create a race that is as good at surviving as possible. there in a hostle environment, the underdark, there are plenty of additional hostle forces all around, but on top of that their entire culture is slowly grinding away at them, there's enough rigidy to ensure civilization continues, enough structure to keep the religious system in play to give her worshipers and to ensure that the racial shema continues. Now, she's a good, so it's beyond individual scale deaths are unsiginificant, indeed, city scale deaths, aren't of the most important, so long as the civilization scattered across the the entire dDrow remains cohesive. Her children V and I were a huge possible upset to that schema. They representated alternatives that the drow could and did embrass, and the signs were that they would increasingly do so. Her son had a one up here as the male population would be more likely to embrass a male, than a female, and I don't need to state why. Getting rid of those two then was a major necesity. I'm going to hold of for a moment on why she might engage in such a schamatic framework for a moment and turn to something else, magic, the weave.
Why does she want the weave? power?
that's part of it, but not all, the weave, magic is an essential part of elven society. To barrow from several sources as a descripto in a phrase, "magic is life, and the elves love life." By controling magic, Lolth would at once, in one act force herself onto the grand stage of elven adiration, mixed with a great deal of horor, as she would control something very near and dear to the elven core conchusness. She would once again ensure herself at the place where she once was, and feels she should be as the highest individual within elven society. this act wouldn't do that, but it would have a prefound impact, if she succeded on elven and human societies greater than can automatically fathiumed. Then she can unleash the weapon she's been cultivating for so long the drow. The end result being one of two things, a strong desire to remold elven society once it's all saidand done, which depending on things go she might be able to have done, depending on how much damage the drow do and her gaining control of magic; or she could be so full of spite that at this stage in the game she just wants to watch it all burn.
Just something to think about. |
We choose to live a lie, when we see with, & not through the eye.
Every decision, no matter the evidence, is a leap of faith; if it were not, then it wouldn't be a choice at all. |
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 06 Oct 2012 : 01:35:13
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The article does mention that orcs insist Gruumsh was always one-eyed, and also brings up the story of the lot drawing(the narrator dismisses it as ridiculous fiction). Best way to reconcile them is simply to say that any and every version of the myth is just that, a myth. Myths are always contradictory.
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"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
The Roleplayer's Gazebo;
http://theroleplayersgazebo.yuku.com/directory#.Ub4hvvlJOAY |
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Euranna
Learned Scribe
USA
219 Posts |
Posted - 06 Oct 2012 : 04:38:55
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| I don't know if anyone has read Elminster Enraged, but the end of that book might have something to do with Lolth becoming the goddess of magic. At least it seemed that way to me. I could be very wrong though. I am have not read all of the Realms novels (and really avoided the 4e one except RAS and Ed), though I am going back back and working my way through as interest directs me. :D |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 06 Oct 2012 : 04:44:27
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The drow, once Illytheri, were part of one of the ancient elven tribes, and they had been dark-skinned. They were corrupted by Lolth after her fall, and they were also savage during the Crown Wars, so they were driven underground by the light-skinned brethen. In Realmslore, Araushnee also reeled in Malar, the Beastlord, to help her try and get Corellon and Sehanine. I believe all the Seldarine are at fault to some extent here, but I still think Lolth caused her own misery. She launched a war against the Seldarine. Were all the gods being fickle to an extent? Possibly, but Lolth's jealousy blew out of proportion. Then again they are gods, so their emotions (and the results of them), are manifested on a larger scale.
That is an interesting take on the battle with Selune and Shar, with Corellon being the sun. I do hope Lolth is not an aspect of Shar though. I was disappointed in the whole “aspects” thing. The number of gods helped enrich the Realms, IMO. I liked how each race had a deity representing the same thing (give or take). If RotU leads to another Seldarine war, I’m not going to be happy. Why? One, because I’m a devout of Corellon, and two, I do not want any more gods to die. That’s what peeved me most about the Spellplague. I may hate Lolth, but I do not want this to result in her death.
I do think that the drow trying to return to the surface would be interesting. In fact, that’s what both Eilistraee and Vhaeraun were trying to do before they were offed. Vhaeraun was evil, but he was better than his mother, and he was kind of “in between” his sister and mother. The drow essentially only have one deity now, Lolth, and so no matter her ambitions, they are doomed to failure, because Lolth is not a leader. The drow will always backstab and fight each other unless they have other gods who represent their ideals. Vhaeraunites and Eilistraeens, while enemies, work together better than ones under Lolth. Maybe the drow would unite to take over the surface, but then they would resort to backstabbing again.
I love the drow as much as I hate them, and I would hate to see their race crumble. I’m glad we’re going to see them back in action, but Lolth trying to take over the Weave…there’s been enough messing with the Weave, IMO. Oh well, it’s already in the works, so there’s not much I can do to stop it.
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Sweet water and light laughter |
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 06 Oct 2012 : 05:37:19
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I disagree regarding the gods. One thing I like about 4e is that there's less in the way of racial gods. I feel gods should be universal. I loved that Talos turned out to be Gruumsh, for instance. It really reminded me of the old greco-roman tradition of identifying other civilization's deities as their own. To me, at the very least, Greater Deities should have worshipers among all races, and really, among most alignments. A greater deity should have a domain that is very much open to interpretation and attract a sweeping variety of worshipers.
I'm not particularly behind the idea of Lolth becoming goddess of magic(I wasn't behind the idea of her becoming a greater goddess, either), but I'd like to think she'd have a fair amount of non-drow worshipers. I'd hope that shows through in this event somewhat. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
The Roleplayer's Gazebo;
http://theroleplayersgazebo.yuku.com/directory#.Ub4hvvlJOAY |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 06 Oct 2012 : 06:05:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus
I disagree regarding the gods. One thing I like about 4e is that there's less in the way of racial gods. I feel gods should be universal. I loved that Talos turned out to be Gruumsh, for instance. It really reminded me of the old greco-roman tradition of identifying other civilization's deities as their own. To me, at the very least, Greater Deities should have worshipers among all races, and really, among most alignments. A greater deity should have a domain that is very much open to interpretation and attract a sweeping variety of worshipers.
I'm not particularly behind the idea of Lolth becoming goddess of magic(I wasn't behind the idea of her becoming a greater goddess, either), but I'd like to think she'd have a fair amount of non-drow worshipers. I'd hope that shows through in this event somewhat.
I can see your point. It’s kind of like how ancient civilizations had polytheistic religions, and while the gods appeared differently in each one, a lot of them represented the same thing. You could say they are all aspects of the same deity, and will appear to various cultures in ways that make sense to that particular culture. It completely makes sense, but it doesn’t mean I like it applied to the Realms. If they had done that from the beginning, (ex, Hanali being the elven aspect of Sune), it might not have mattered as much. But to suddenly claim in 4e that this god is really an aspect of that god diminishes that god’s individuality, IMO. Hanali was also not entirely the same as Sune, so, to me at least, it made sense to have them as separate deities. If deities are really just aspects of each other in various racial pantheons, then wouldn’t that make Corellon, being the “sun”, the elven aspect of Lathander/Amaunataur?
I’m not saying other races can’t worship a deity of another racial pantheon. I’ve read FR books where elves worship a human god, for example. It’s not impossible for a human to worship Lolth, though whether she acknowledges that human or not is debatable. But the god(ess) of magic should be neutral, IMO, but then again, I haven’t read Elminster Enraged yet, so I can’t really say.
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Sweet water and light laughter |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 06 Oct 2012 : 06:40:35
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I have mixed feelings. For the sake of brevity and rules, having less is better, because simplicity makes for better balance. If there are only really like 2 dozen gods, then I don't need four hundred specialty priests for one setting.
On the other hand, I think more deities does enrich a setting. This is why I take the approach that in-game everything is the way the OGB (or whatever edition I am running) says it is. This is in-game PC/NPC knowledge. If the setting has a Selune and a Sehanine, then thats what people believe. If it has a Talos and Gruumsh, then thats what they believe. And so on, and so forth.
From a DM, meta-gaming point of view, I can then say I know this deity is really the same as that deity, etc, etc. I know that, just as Chosen of Asmodeus said, its like the days of ancient Greece or Rome - same gods, different names and aspects in different regions.
Just like 'Eladrin' is really just a rules mechanic, and we can completely ignore it when we are running the Realms. If a player tries to take his meta-gaming knowledge into the setting, then they should be punished for it (like when they say Corellon and Gruumsh are brothers, they get attacked by every elf and orc present).
What we know as gamers and fans of D&D/FR is quite different then what our characters would know, or anyone in-setting would know. Quite often such things are called heresies, like the one about Lathander being Aumanator (which proved to be true), or the one about Lolth and shar being one and the same (which may still prove to be prove). Heretics don't fair well in the highly magical and often highly religious Forgotten Realms.
Getting back to Lolth (and religion in general) - the teachings of 'the church' (ie., 'Drow Priestesses') may not really be what the god wants. It may reflect only a small aspect of what the deity is all about, or it might even twist the dogma to serve their own purposes (like how Constantine revamped Christianity to his own ends). A deity isn't going to stop excepting worship energy just because some folks "are doing it wrong". Some try to correct it, but most are just too lazy (because either way, they are benefiting from it, so why end it?)
Lolth might not agree with the way her Drow behave, but it benefits her, so she wouldn't bother to change anything. If they became more like she wanted (returning to the surface to reclaim that which was once theirs), she may loose a bunch of them, or even most of them. Thus a deity may become pigeon-holed by their own dogma; its a trap. If millions of people are sending you energy, why do something that might end all of that?
So they take different names and aspects, and allow faithful that would not normally be allowed because of race or whatever (the Ondonti orcs worship the Fey pantheon), and do whatever they have to do to keep themselves in power, even if they don't agree with some of it. To them, the material world is just a big chess game, and you don't really care about your pawns. They are just useful at times. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 06 Oct 2012 06:42:52 |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 06 Oct 2012 : 06:56:27
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| As I said, "It’s kind of like how ancient civilizations had polytheistic religions, and while the gods appeared differently in each one, a lot of them represented the same thing. You could say they are all aspects of the same deity, and will appear to various cultures in ways that make sense to that particular culture". So yes, it's like ancient Greece and Rome. My views on RW religion agree with that. But for the Realms, like you said, Markustay, the mulitude of gods enriches the Realms. I don't want my fantasy to be like the real world. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 06 Oct 2012 : 07:21:07
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One of the things I didn't originally like about 4e that has since grown on me is the idea that once divine classes- clerics, paladins, the lot- are imbued with their divine powers from their god, that power is extremely difficult to take away, even by the deities themselves, regardless of how those divine agents behave.
There was another article in Dragon Magazine a while back that highlighted this in that it spoke of heresy(Faith & Heresy by Ken Hart and Jeff LaSala((again!)), Dragon Magazine 397), explaining how the doctrine of a given deity can be interpreted or misinterpreted by their followers. This was both as a way to give player characters more freedom and provide them with more story hooks, while at the same time providing campaigns with new potential enemies- heretical sects of traditionally good deities, though it also mentioned how heretics of traditionally evil deities might spread the deity's message in a more positive light.
One example it gave was a cult that worshiped the Raven Queen(Points of Light goddess of death, something of a mix between Kelemvor and Shar) as the Raven King, believing that the old God of Death hadn't been killed by his consort, but instead defeated her and absorbed her power; basically worshiping the old god with the new god's trappings.
Or, in an example more on point with this thread, would be the possibility of goodly(or more likely neutral) elves and/or drow who still worship Lolth as Araushnee- a goddess of fate with spider trappings thrown in. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
The Roleplayer's Gazebo;
http://theroleplayersgazebo.yuku.com/directory#.Ub4hvvlJOAY |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3824 Posts |
Posted - 06 Oct 2012 : 09:30:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
[...]
Getting back to Lolth (and religion in general) - the teachings of 'the church' (ie., 'Drow Priestesses') may not really be what the god wants. It may reflect only a small aspect of what the deity is all about, or it might even twist the dogma to serve their own purposes (like how Constantine revamped Christianity to his own ends). A deity isn't going to stop excepting worship energy just because some folks "are doing it wrong". Some try to correct it, but most are just too lazy (because either way, they are benefiting from it, so why end it?)
Lolth might not agree with the way her Drow behave, but it benefits her, so she wouldn't bother to change anything. If they became more like she wanted (returning to the surface to reclaim that which was once theirs), she may loose a bunch of them, or even most of them. Thus a deity may become pigeon-holed by their own dogma; its a trap. If millions of people are sending you energy, why do something that might end all of that?
So they take different names and aspects, and allow faithful that would not normally be allowed because of race or whatever (the Ondonti orcs worship the Fey pantheon), and do whatever they have to do to keep themselves in power, even if they don't agree with some of it. To them, the material world is just a big chess game, and you don't really care about your pawns. They are just useful at times.
[...]
This really depends on the deity IMO. If his/her/its goal was just to get 'energy' from mortals, that would easily be true. However some deities want something much different than that, and to them having their priest(esse)s teaching and doing things which are in contrast with their ideas in their name is just bad. I don't think that a deity of justice would be happy to see some of his/her/its priest(esse)s going around fanatically saying 'purge the criminals with fire, in X's name'. God(desse)s who have specific goals other than getting power would hardly let their own agents on the prime doing things they don't agree with in their name.
About Lolth: while what you say would make sense because all that she cares about is conquering the world, it is a bit off IMO, because of the absolute control she imposes to the drow. Having her pawns behavior slipping off what she set for them would be unacceptable to her. Also, I remember reading somewhere (Faiths and Pantheons, if I'm not mistaken) that she regularly sends her servants and sometimes her avatars to keep her priestesses and followers behavior in line with her dogma. She started all of this right after the descent, when the Dark Elves started turning to her 'en masse', so I personally think that it's something done on purpose. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 06 Oct 2012 09:41:21 |
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fw190a8
Acolyte
United Kingdom
32 Posts |
Posted - 06 Oct 2012 : 12:40:52
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| Hmm so Lolth is narrating this, right? Should she be referring to the drow as "dark elves" given that dark elves are a completely different thing, or is that just nit-picking? ;) |
Contributor to the Forgotten Realms Wiki: http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 06 Oct 2012 : 15:54:02
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Drow were Dark Elves, and post-3e many of them became Dark (Sylvan) Elves once again.
'Drow' comes from Dhaerow, which means 'traitor'. I am not sure why any drow would actually refer to themselves that way. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 06 Oct 2012 15:55:33 |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 07 Oct 2012 : 04:34:43
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Perhaps this is an example of a community attempting to weaken the sting of a word by "owning" it, like with Black people calling themselves "niggaz", or assertive women willingly calling themselves "bitches". Those names started out as derogatory terms, but somehow, people twist them into badges of honor.
"So, you think I'm a Dhaerow/Traitor? OK, then fine: I'm a Dhaerow/Traitor. Yeah, that's right: I'm Drow. What are you gonna do about it, scum?" |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
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Derulbaskul
Senior Scribe
Singapore
408 Posts |
Posted - 07 Oct 2012 : 04:42:29
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Also, perhaps dhaerow can be pronounced in more than one way so that it can mean traitor or even the true (race/people). (If you're familiar with total languages like the Chinese dialects - where a simple one-syllable word such as ma can be pronounced eight different ways - you'll get what I mean here.)
In other words, non-drow are just a misspoken vowel sound away from insulting the drow they are negotiating with (hopefully none of the non-drow are New Zealanders...). |
Cheers
D
NB: Please remember: A cannon is a big gun. Canon is what we discuss here. |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
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Laeknir
Seeker
68 Posts |
Posted - 07 Oct 2012 : 19:17:14
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I asked this in another thread (novels section), but this thread seems topical as well.
Until recently, on Amazon, Alex Irvine's Demon Weave FR novel was listed as having a publication date of Sept. 2012. But I went back today to order it, and the page for it is completely gone.
Anyone know have any news? Maybe it's been pushed ahead to 2013?
Strange thing is, it's now also absent from the WotC page for the Rise of the Underdark story. A new novel from J.Johnson is there, for November release, but Demon Weave is gone. Can't find any trace of it, but my Google-fu isn't the best. Any news on this?
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 08 Oct 2012 : 04:08:39
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| That is a very good question. I noticed that on amazon too. The one by J. Johnson is a sequel to Mistshore (she has another series I would like to see her continue, as well), but I'm having the same problem you are in not being able to find Demon Weave. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Sightless
Senior Scribe
USA
608 Posts |
Posted - 08 Oct 2012 : 04:36:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Drow were Dark Elves, and post-3e many of them became Dark (Sylvan) Elves once again.
'Drow' comes from Dhaerow, which means 'traitor'. I am not sure why any drow would actually refer to themselves that way.
Most civilizations don't consider duplicity as a high moral virtue, but the drow do.
It's like the half orcs in LOTR openly calling themselves cruel murderous wizard spawn. If it's a cultural virtue, then the individuals will, for the most part embrace it. |
We choose to live a lie, when we see with, & not through the eye.
Every decision, no matter the evidence, is a leap of faith; if it were not, then it wouldn't be a choice at all. |
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Euranna
Learned Scribe
USA
219 Posts |
Posted - 08 Oct 2012 : 15:19:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Laeknir
I asked this in another thread (novels section), but this thread seems topical as well.
Until recently, on Amazon, Alex Irvine's Demon Weave FR novel was listed as having a publication date of Sept. 2012. But I went back today to order it, and the page for it is completely gone.
<snip>
Maybe the story line was usurped by The Sundering? Perhaps there was a plan A that pushed the Rise of the Underdark in this direction. But then the development of how The Sundering was going to alter the world caused a retooling of RotU? This is a complete guess of course. But I can see that being the case if what was going to be the end result of the novels for RotU going against or not fitting well with The Sundering, it might have just been scrapped or postponed until some unknown future date.
I think WotC has a lot riding on The Sundering (and thereby DnDNext when it makes it into the world).
My two cents anyway. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 08 Oct 2012 : 17:30:36
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Wasn't that part of the abyssal Plague? I think the entire Abyssal Plague thing was cancelled, wasn't it? Or did it happen? So much fanfare for something that came and went with a whimper.
I finally got to read one of those preview chapters last night (in The Ghost King) and I have to say it left me completely uninterested in reading further. I don't see how they considered it a cross-world event when EVERYTHING mentioned was from the Nentir Vale setting. How does one become a fan of a 'non-setting'? 
Its amazing how badly authors writing in other settings try so desperately to tap into FRs fanbase. Just because it happens in the same multiverse doesn't mean FR fans want to read about it. FR fans LIKE to read. Nentir Vale fans like to game. It seems pretty simple to me - why do they think they can make it all work they way they want it to? Its not going to happen; D&D/FR fans are intelligent consumers - you can't trick them.
Anyhow, given the name of that novel, you are probably right. I think parts of the Abyssal Plague got rolled into the Sundering and the RotU. I guess they didn't realize how sick of 'plague' we all were.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 08 Oct 2012 17:32:11 |
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Laeknir
Seeker
68 Posts |
Posted - 09 Oct 2012 : 01:59:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Wasn't that part of the abyssal Plague? I think the entire Abyssal Plague thing was cancelled, wasn't it? (snip)
No, Demon Weave wasn't related to the Abyssal Plague series in any way AFAIK. That was a separate series that told a story related to Tharizdun and far realm entities.
Until it disappeared, Demon Weave's blurb said it was to tell the story of Lolth trying to take Mystra's power by weaving a new demonic Weave and claiming her portfolio.
It's possible it was pulled b/c of this new "Sundering" or is being revised to fit better with that. But the Lolth plot seemed integral to the Rise of the Underdark meta-story. I was just curious if anyone had heard anything.
P.S. there was also the FR "Stoneplague" in Smedman's new Gilded Rune, lots of plagues recently. I'm enjoying Smedman's book immensely so far. |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 09 Oct 2012 : 02:05:20
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| I love Lisa Smedman, but some would argue her work isn't canon, but I loved Lady Penitent. I just wish there would be a follow-up to the events that took place there. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 10 Oct 2012 : 03:50:30
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I just hope Lloth would NOT succeed in crafting a Demon Weave. Otherwise, all the gods might as well create their own Weaves: Bane's Dark Weave, Chauntea's Nature's Weave, Lathander's Shining Weave, Cyric's Mad Weave, Sharess's Lustful Weave... |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Sightless
Senior Scribe
USA
608 Posts |
Posted - 10 Oct 2012 : 04:15:35
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I'll say it, but I'll hate myself in the morning.
It's the backfire when Lolth fails Spectacularly that’s the main goal, I think. The half weave when it comes apart doing something that the designers want that cannot be easily explained otherwise.
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We choose to live a lie, when we see with, & not through the eye.
Every decision, no matter the evidence, is a leap of faith; if it were not, then it wouldn't be a choice at all. |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 10 Oct 2012 : 04:42:46
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@Dennie: now there's a thought
Since we are also talking about drow in this thread, here is something that may have been talked about but I don't understand: why, why did all the drow deities but Lolth (and Ghaunadaur I suppose) have to die? What was the point? Particularly Eilistraee and Vhaearaun. The latter may have been evil, but at least he was an alternative, and males had better hope with him than they did Lolth. I mean no offense to any designers and authors of the Realms, but it doesn't make much sense to me. I'm glad Corellon prevented Eilistraee's realm from being destroyed, or at the very least took in the souls of her dead followers (and hopefully Vhaeraun's as well, since she dud become the Masked Lady and took in his followers), so that is some comfort, but...still. Why kill them off? I sure hope they return during the Sundring--preferrbly as separate entities, though I could live with the Masked Lady. It might be difficult for Vhaeraun to go "those souls are mine! Gimme!". And Qilue...not only did she die, but her soul was destroyed. I presume her lover Elkantar went to Eilistraee's realm, but can you imagine his sorrow when he learns he will never see his beloved again, not even in the afterlife?
So, yeah, they better come back, but then again, as I'm sure most know by now that I'm a sucker for the gods, and Lolth being the only drow god when all the other races have more than one, just doesn't seem right to me. Are drow really that doomed? |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Topic |
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Rise of the Underdark
