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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
 Posted - 10 Oct 2012 : 05:07:12
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Lloth is simply being granted the same make-over Shar had. Besides, the drow are a relatively small race. They don't need a pantheon. One bitch goddess is enough. Or maybe just add one, for competition. And fret not about dead/vanished deities. Some of them are coming back. Just hope those some include your favorites. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 10 Oct 2012 : 05:20:04
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I disagree, but that is probably because I like the drow, nasty buggers as they may be, though not as much as the surface elves. Kind of ironic that I like the race that is one of the elves greatest enemies. Plus, aside from Corellon and Lebalas Enorath, Shevarash is my favorite elven deity, and he HATES the drow, so it's quite ironic that I am a drow supporter.
I've heard deities are coming back *nods* so yes, hopefully that includes some of my favorites, but I am not the only one who has wishes for 5e, and people's opinions differ. A lot want the gods to return, but want them to play a less intrusive role, but I think, for gods like Eilistraee and Vhaearun, they *need* to play an active role. Yes, one could argue that it is more important that their followers are the embodiement of what they stand for, but I think certain gods need to be more active. But many, including FR authors and designers, disagree with me, so..*shrugs* |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 10 Oct 2012 : 05:26:17
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Ideally, I don't use gods. But if I can't help it, if I really have to use them, either because the story or my editor requires it, I make certain they don't take active roles. I want them to remain mysterious. Getting them very involved in the affairs of mortals ruins that mystery. In other words, I hope the designers would walk the talk and really have the gods don some less intrusive roles. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Sightless
Senior Scribe
USA
608 Posts |
Posted - 10 Oct 2012 : 05:39:38
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"Sometimes something that seemed a good idea at the moment of action, is in hindsight revealed to be otherwise. What is more the original concept that prompted it is on lattter attempts difficult to explain"(Paul Watcher).
This merely a guess on my part, nothing more. If the Drow are capable of redemption, then they can return to the same elven heaven as the surfice elves. The presence of the other gods for the Drow, except for Lolth, helped expedite the process of redemption to much for the purposes of what the folks at WOTC wanted. Now, redemption for the elves will be a grueling task, there will still be the stelthy sheperds wanteds, moveing through Lolth's cities, quietly keeping the memories of Lolth's children alive, quietly prompting others to leave the spider queen's embrace, and helping those they believe have don so. the difficulties for the sheperd, who like a clerical bard, must keep the idology of a dead God alive in such a way as to keep from being noticed. On the surfice, they must balance there interests of merging into worship of the old elven group, with the various expectations and fears of the surfice. The trials will be more, and more difficult, but the rewards... the triumphs all the sweeter. The death or slumber, is a trial, one that in a way, if done correctly, could create facinating tales.
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We choose to live a lie, when we see with, & not through the eye.
Every decision, no matter the evidence, is a leap of faith; if it were not, then it wouldn't be a choice at all. |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 10 Oct 2012 : 05:53:37
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@Dennis: Like I said, I'm probably in the minority, because a lot of people agree with you, so you're more likely to get your wish than I am. Of course the gods need to have some mystery to them, they are gods after all. I'm not saying we need to completely understand them or that they need to help their followers in everything they do (most gods don't). We were asked what makes the Realms for us, and this one of the things that makes the Realms for me. Gods give me comfort when a character I love dies. At the very least, I like to know that the gods are there, that they exist. In RW, it’s a matter of faith, but in the Realms, and other fantasy, it’s common knowledge. Characters KNOW the gods exist, and that is awesome to me. But like I said, I'm aware that I am in the minority here, so plenty of people disagree with me.
@Sightless: you bring up some very good points, some of which I agree on and some of which I don’t. If the gods are capable of redemption, then of course they should go to Arvandor. A redeemed drow going to Lolth’s realm wouldn’t be very fair, and would be completely against the point. Of course there will be “shepherds” on both sides, those trying to convert the drow to Vhaearun or Eilistraee, and Lolth will still want to spread her eight legs too. However, I don’t think WotC went too far in expediting it. I think they made the mistake of killing the other drow gods off in the first place.
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Sweet water and light laughter |
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 10 Oct 2012 : 08:47:52
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| In my mind the afterlife should remain faith based. A drow that redeems themselves and dies without converting to the worship of another deity should still go to Lolth's realm to face the punishment that awaits all the false. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
The Roleplayer's Gazebo;
http://theroleplayersgazebo.yuku.com/directory#.Ub4hvvlJOAY |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3824 Posts |
Posted - 10 Oct 2012 : 09:39:06
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@Sightless
quote:
[...]
This merely a guess on my part, nothing more. If the Drow are capable of redemption, then they can return to the same elven heaven as the surfice elves. The presence of the other gods for the Drow, except for Lolth, helped expedite the process of redemption to much for the purposes of what the folks at WOTC wanted.
[...]
E and V symbolize the fight for freedom (two opposed approaches to it: romantic but passionate approach in trying to change people's mind vs fierce and violent one in destroying what shackles people), for the possibility to forge one's own future through choices, which lolthite drow don't have (making them kind of fail as villains, since they are basically pawns). The siblings aren't expediting the 'redemption' too much, they add characterization, depth and unicity to an otherwise flat race that now has become a clone of the GH drow in the Realms (except more powerful, which doesn't change anything).
The reason they were removed from the canonical Realms likely was the sake of simplicity (along with many other things removed): IIRC, I remember reading in some Q&A about 4e FR topic on the WotC forums one post where a designer (R. Baker, if I'm not mistaken) said something like 'how many deities of dance do the Realms need?', which clearly referred to Eilistraee (since she and Liira are the only two, AFAIK). Fact is she is not a simple deity of dance, but stands for and gives much more to the setting (dance and joy are tools to her, as I've already said on these forums) and same goes for Vhaeraun with thievery, but WotC simply limited their judgement to the appearance, ignoring the true value of these two characters.
@Chosen of Asmodeus: When talking about places made up of ideas (the outer planes), IMO it really doesn't make much sense to determine where one's soul goes according to which rituals he/she performed while in life. It would be more fitting if it was he ideas which led one's life to lead one's afterlife as well. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 10 Oct 2012 09:49:54 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 10 Oct 2012 : 09:45:39
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Sooooo... if Demon Weave is canceled, does that mean the Rise of the Underdark is not hapeneing? I'm confused - thats seems to have been the main plot of the story-arc.
So now the Drow are pouring out the ground because... someone put ants their pants? They're hungry? They were bored? Mass Hysteria? For the same reason the chicken crossed the road?
I'm not getting it - that seems to have been the pivotal book in the series. Whats got their spider-silk panties in a bunch?
EDIT: Now I am even more confused. I just went through all the titles they are still listing, and I am not really seeing any other story-arc, other then "Drow gone wild". After 10,000 years they finally figured out the Underdark sucks? I was actually looking forward to this, and now it looks like an RSE without the RSE. 
And isn't D&D Online about Eberron? Why is Skein of Shadows listed with the others? Is this one of those {yawn} setting cross-overs?
At least they didn't name it the 'Spider Plague'.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 10 Oct 2012 10:02:12 |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3824 Posts |
Posted - 10 Oct 2012 : 10:38:27
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| I was wondering about a thing concerning this new Weave. In his scroll Ed said that the Weave is basically the energy of the physical phenomena that happen on Toril shaped in a sort of net by Mystra (something like the Force, but instead of powering from the energy of living beings, it powers from that plus all the other phenomena. Yeah, I know it doesn't make sense, nothing would happen because all the energy would be trapped in the Weave, still...). So where do the Shadow Weave (and this new Lolth's Wave) draw energy from to rival in efficiency Mystra's, considering that the biggest 'power source' is already taken? |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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Lord Bane
Senior Scribe
Germany
479 Posts |
Posted - 10 Oct 2012 : 10:52:36
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I would have to side with The devoute of the elven overdeity here, Eilistraee and Vhaeraun were good choices for a drow who did not agree with Lolth calling the shots, let us include Kiaransalee into the mix aswell. They differed in their approaches but they all opposed Lolth in a way. I am excluding Selvetarm for being a pawn of Lolth, Ghaunadaur for being the ooze he is and Zinzerena for being dead in the wake of the Time of Troubles.
By removing them from the scope of drow deities they robbed the drow of RP potential in regards to seeking a different path other than Lolth and it would have played perfectly into the "hero saves the day" doctrine WOTC follows.E,V and K all had the potential to cause Lolth a headache when they wanted and they contested for her control of the drow, just like the drow contest for control of a city through the houses. It´s part of their culture and it made only sense for the deities to reflect that. Now we have a sole drow deity but no explanation on what happened to those followers of the gods who opposed her. Sure they can go into hiding or perish but when you kill off gods but you need to pull things through and give the explanation what became of the remaining faithfull. You made the gods go away, now it is your task to tie off that end aswell with either bringing the worship to a complete end or groups seeking to see their lost deity return to it´s former glory.
As for the point about "how many dieties of dance do we need" brought up by Irennan, as many as the cultures want to. Honestly if such a stament was really made on the WOTC forums then such a statement is showing ignorance. It is close minded and implicates that only one deity is responsible for the entire list of creatures with the particular affinity for lets say in this case, dance.
It leaves out cultural diversity and for crying out loud, does the person really think that drow who live their whole life in the Underdark have ever heard of a human goddess of dance? Certainly not. Likewise it can be said for the other way around, would a human living his whole life in a place with no connection to any information about drow have heard of a drow goddess of dance? Certainly not aswell.
I am taking this as an example as i know Eilistraee is more than just dance but only because we have two or more deities of the same "trait" it does not mean we have to get ridd of all except one for culutres are diverse and many cultures can have different gods for the same thing. |
The driving force in the multiverse is evil, for it forces good to act. |
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Sightless
Senior Scribe
USA
608 Posts |
Posted - 10 Oct 2012 : 13:10:36
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| Folks realize that my last post was a sort of explanation and not something I agree with... right? |
We choose to live a lie, when we see with, & not through the eye.
Every decision, no matter the evidence, is a leap of faith; if it were not, then it wouldn't be a choice at all. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12251 Posts |
Posted - 10 Oct 2012 : 15:34:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I am not saying thats precisely what he was doing - I am saying that that is the way she perceived it.
Believe me, this particular relationship/argument hits home for me. Trust me, it is entirely possible to be 'condescending' without ever realizing you are being that way. The damage wrought by such a relationship creates a person who has low self-esteem and the desire to prove themselves (to a fault). It took me 20 years to figure this out... Corellon's had millenia... I am sure he is as aware of his faults as I am of mine.
You can do a lot of damage by accident - "the road to hell is paved with good intentions." 
You can say that again. The number of times I've been told, "we understand you're right about what needs to be done... its just the way you're saying it." well, let me say that political correctness has been around a long time. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12251 Posts |
Posted - 10 Oct 2012 : 15:41:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
"Hell hath no fury like a women scorned"
Now add in the deity-factor and multiply that by a thousand. Lolth is one PO'ed biotch. Look at her religion - she requires constant fauning and attention, and also the whole "that shalt not place any other gods before me" thing. She is a vain megalomaniac - a deva in the worst extreme. Picture Lindsey Lohan with the powers of a deity, and the intelligence to match.
Self-adsorbed and self-destructive. Just look at the society she forced the drow to take.
Yes, and the pointlessness of this is what makes me dislike her. I find characters who are so self-focused and vain to be extremely boring. But, as I said before, IMO ofc.
quote:
I find Lolth very interesting... its Shar that bores me to tears. "*Wahhhhh* the universe irritates me so I want it all to just go away (including myself)." Talk about a nihilist.
That's something that makes me dislike Shar. While Lolth is 'Mwahaha I shall conquer the world', Shar is 'Mwahaha I shall destroy the world'. However Shar has a way to behave towards her followers which stirs some interest in me. Lolth imposes its religion (you know: indoctrination, pre-defined lives with no real possibility to choose and forge one's own future for her followers etc... Basically the drow are brainwashed pawns with little initiative in their big plans but divine mandate. They are the pitiable creatures here), Shar kind of does that too, but at least she lures people into it. She feeds on sorrow and despair, offering a false relief to the ones who are grieved by loss in bitterness and revenge: an intoxicating feel which poisons the mind of the ones who seek it, leading them to inexorably slip into Shar's 'embrace'. While I dislike both the Spider Queen's and the Lady of Loss' motivations, what I wrote above would make me choose the latter over the former anytime.
Yeah, I liked Shar more when she was all about soothing people's souls by whispering in their heads that they should seek revenge (and offering to keep their secrets). Then, she went and took over Talos' role... which irked me. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12251 Posts |
Posted - 10 Oct 2012 : 15:49:40
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quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus
I disagree regarding the gods. One thing I like about 4e is that there's less in the way of racial gods. I feel gods should be universal. I loved that Talos turned out to be Gruumsh, for instance. It really reminded me of the old greco-roman tradition of identifying other civilization's deities as their own. To me, at the very least, Greater Deities should have worshipers among all races, and really, among most alignments. A greater deity should have a domain that is very much open to interpretation and attract a sweeping variety of worshipers.
I'm not particularly behind the idea of Lolth becoming goddess of magic(I wasn't behind the idea of her becoming a greater goddess, either), but I'd like to think she'd have a fair amount of non-drow worshipers. I'd hope that shows through in this event somewhat.
I can see your point. It’s kind of like how ancient civilizations had polytheistic religions, and while the gods appeared differently in each one, a lot of them represented the same thing. You could say they are all aspects of the same deity, and will appear to various cultures in ways that make sense to that particular culture. It completely makes sense, but it doesn’t mean I like it applied to the Realms. If they had done that from the beginning, (ex, Hanali being the elven aspect of Sune), it might not have mattered as much. But to suddenly claim in 4e that this god is really an aspect of that god diminishes that god’s individuality, IMO. Hanali was also not entirely the same as Sune, so, to me at least, it made sense to have them as separate deities. If deities are really just aspects of each other in various racial pantheons, then wouldn’t that make Corellon, being the “sun”, the elven aspect of Lathander/Amaunataur?
I’m not saying other races can’t worship a deity of another racial pantheon. I’ve read FR books where elves worship a human god, for example. It’s not impossible for a human to worship Lolth, though whether she acknowledges that human or not is debatable. But the god(ess) of magic should be neutral, IMO, but then again, I haven’t read Elminster Enraged yet, so I can’t really say.
And if Corellon is the elven aspect of Lathander/Amaunator... does his being the god of Elven magic make him also Mystra? That's the problem with all this "we're all aspects" thing. As I see it, the amount of control of a deity over their particular portfolio simply needs to be addressed. Maybe we have seven deities of the moon, and all draw from adherents venerating the moon in their particular name. Same with the sun (i.e. Lathander and Amaunator are separate, and Amaunator simply tricked people). |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12251 Posts |
Posted - 10 Oct 2012 : 15:54:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus
One of the things I didn't originally like about 4e that has since grown on me is the idea that once divine classes- clerics, paladins, the lot- are imbued with their divine powers from their god, that power is extremely difficult to take away, even by the deities themselves, regardless of how those divine agents behave.
There was another article in Dragon Magazine a while back that highlighted this in that it spoke of heresy(Faith & Heresy by Ken Hart and Jeff LaSala((again!)), Dragon Magazine 397), explaining how the doctrine of a given deity can be interpreted or misinterpreted by their followers. This was both as a way to give player characters more freedom and provide them with more story hooks, while at the same time providing campaigns with new potential enemies- heretical sects of traditionally good deities, though it also mentioned how heretics of traditionally evil deities might spread the deity's message in a more positive light.
One example it gave was a cult that worshiped the Raven Queen(Points of Light goddess of death, something of a mix between Kelemvor and Shar) as the Raven King, believing that the old God of Death hadn't been killed by his consort, but instead defeated her and absorbed her power; basically worshiping the old god with the new god's trappings.
Or, in an example more on point with this thread, would be the possibility of goodly(or more likely neutral) elves and/or drow who still worship Lolth as Araushnee- a goddess of fate with spider trappings thrown in.
That's an intriguing idea (I'd love to read the article).... so in essence, just like a chosen is holding the power of Mystra... perhaps a cleric/paladin/whatever is holding a portion of the divine power of a deity. In essence, they are mini-chosen. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12251 Posts |
Posted - 10 Oct 2012 : 17:43:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
I just hope Lloth would NOT succeed in crafting a Demon Weave. Otherwise, all the gods might as well create their own Weaves: Bane's Dark Weave, Chauntea's Nature's Weave, Lathander's Shining Weave, Cyric's Mad Weave, Sharess's Lustful Weave...
I heard casting from Sharess' Lustful Weave has addictive side effects and can make you go blind. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12251 Posts |
Posted - 10 Oct 2012 : 18:01:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Lord Bane
I would have to side with The devoute of the elven overdeity here, Eilistraee and Vhaeraun were good choices for a drow who did not agree with Lolth calling the shots, let us include Kiaransalee into the mix aswell. They differed in their approaches but they all opposed Lolth in a way. I am excluding Selvetarm for being a pawn of Lolth, Ghaunadaur for being the ooze he is and Zinzerena for being dead in the wake of the Time of Troubles.
By removing them from the scope of drow deities they robbed the drow of RP potential in regards to seeking a different path other than Lolth and it would have played perfectly into the "hero saves the day" doctrine WOTC follows.E,V and K all had the potential to cause Lolth a headache when they wanted and they contested for her control of the drow, just like the drow contest for control of a city through the houses. It´s part of their culture and it made only sense for the deities to reflect that. Now we have a sole drow deity but no explanation on what happened to those followers of the gods who opposed her. Sure they can go into hiding or perish but when you kill off gods but you need to pull things through and give the explanation what became of the remaining faithfull. You made the gods go away, now it is your task to tie off that end aswell with either bringing the worship to a complete end or groups seeking to see their lost deity return to it´s former glory.
As for the point about "how many dieties of dance do we need" brought up by Irennan, as many as the cultures want to. Honestly if such a stament was really made on the WOTC forums then such a statement is showing ignorance. It is close minded and implicates that only one deity is responsible for the entire list of creatures with the particular affinity for lets say in this case, dance.
It leaves out cultural diversity and for crying out loud, does the person really think that drow who live their whole life in the Underdark have ever heard of a human goddess of dance? Certainly not. Likewise it can be said for the other way around, would a human living his whole life in a place with no connection to any information about drow have heard of a drow goddess of dance? Certainly not aswell.
I am taking this as an example as i know Eilistraee is more than just dance but only because we have two or more deities of the same "trait" it does not mean we have to get ridd of all except one for culutres are diverse and many cultures can have different gods for the same thing.
The one thing I find interesting here is that noone is discussing the idea that Lolth was for some unknown reason "splitting" herself up at the end of WotSQ. Then all of a sudden, she goes out and kills E, V, and K (and Selvetarm also bites it). Its almost like somehow she was attempting to make herself into some kind of multi-part deity like Angharradhh or Shekinester. Its still like she's one deity and none of that other stuff ever happened. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3824 Posts |
Posted - 10 Oct 2012 : 18:08:00
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| I'm glad that it's that way. Frankly, I'm tired of all-in-one deities (especially considering that a deity who symbolizes domination having beings who stand for freedom and rebellion as aspects (or something like aspects) is kinda off). |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 10 Oct 2012 18:10:13 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 10 Oct 2012 : 18:46:43
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I sometimes think the 'kewl Xaos' isn't centered on the Drow, but rather, Renton.
This 5e lead-in story-arc now appears to be guilty of what happened in 4e - trying to run in 50 directions at once and getting nowhere.
I just hope they get their crap together before anything substantial is released.
Watched that Rise of the Underdark video again last night trying to determine the over-plot (which appears to just be "do more of what you've been doing for 11K+ years, but all at once"), and I noticed something. In the beginning, we see the map burn around Cormanthor, which makes perfect sense - the Drow have one of their largest surface presences there. But toward the end, we see the map burn starting in The Vast - I wonder if that means anything?
Have they decided that Dambrath was just too damn far to be useful, and are now re-tooling The Vast as a Drow nation? I wouldn't be against that - its actually along the lines of what I was doing with my Misbegotten Realms (bringing everything I wanted to use around the Inner Sea). It could just be an excuse to make drow a core race in 5e. Whatever they do, I hope they do it right - this could go either way. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 10 Oct 2012 18:48:13 |
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Sightless
Senior Scribe
USA
608 Posts |
Posted - 10 Oct 2012 : 21:03:50
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Bane
I would have to side with The devoute of the elven overdeity here, Eilistraee and Vhaeraun were good choices for a drow who did not agree with Lolth calling the shots, let us include Kiaransalee into the mix aswell. They differed in their approaches but they all opposed Lolth in a way. I am excluding Selvetarm for being a pawn of Lolth, Ghaunadaur for being the ooze he is and Zinzerena for being dead in the wake of the Time of Troubles.
By removing them from the scope of drow deities they robbed the drow of RP potential in regards to seeking a different path other than Lolth and it would have played perfectly into the "hero saves the day" doctrine WOTC follows.E,V and K all had the potential to cause Lolth a headache when they wanted and they contested for her control of the drow, just like the drow contest for control of a city through the houses. It´s part of their culture and it made only sense for the deities to reflect that. Now we have a sole drow deity but no explanation on what happened to those followers of the gods who opposed her. Sure they can go into hiding or perish but when you kill off gods but you need to pull things through and give the explanation what became of the remaining faithfull. You made the gods go away, now it is your task to tie off that end aswell with either bringing the worship to a complete end or groups seeking to see their lost deity return to it´s former glory.
As for the point about "how many dieties of dance do we need" brought up by Irennan, as many as the cultures want to. Honestly if such a stament was really made on the WOTC forums then such a statement is showing ignorance. It is close minded and implicates that only one deity is responsible for the entire list of creatures with the particular affinity for lets say in this case, dance.
It leaves out cultural diversity and for crying out loud, does the person really think that drow who live their whole life in the Underdark have ever heard of a human goddess of dance? Certainly not. Likewise it can be said for the other way around, would a human living his whole life in a place with no connection to any information about drow have heard of a drow goddess of dance? Certainly not aswell.
I am taking this as an example as i know Eilistraee is more than just dance but only because we have two or more deities of the same "trait" it does not mean we have to get ridd of all except one for culutres are diverse and many cultures can have different gods for the same thing.
The one thing I find interesting here is that noone is discussing the idea that Lolth was for some unknown reason "splitting" herself up at the end of WotSQ. Then all of a sudden, she goes out and kills E, V, and K (and Selvetarm also bites it). Its almost like somehow she was attempting to make herself into some kind of multi-part deity like Angharradhh or Shekinester. Its still like she's one deity and none of that other stuff ever happened.
The reasons I've discarded this, is for one, it doesn't fit with her core personality, and two, she has shown no aspects or qualities of the multiplicity in any 4e lore. So we can make the assumption that se was trying to do that without any information to support such an assumption, beyond killing of the others, or we can go with that which has plenty of evidence that she simply did what she was trying to do all along and simply remove rivals. the evidence supports this far more than anything else.
I am not saying this because I like being contrary, but I have a tendency to take a logical approach to looking at things, and the evidence I have shows what I have stated as being the most valid outcome. |
We choose to live a lie, when we see with, & not through the eye.
Every decision, no matter the evidence, is a leap of faith; if it were not, then it wouldn't be a choice at all. |
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Laeknir
Seeker
68 Posts |
Posted - 10 Oct 2012 : 23:33:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Sooooo... if Demon Weave is canceled, does that mean the Rise of the Underdark is not hapeneing? I'm confused - thats seems to have been the main plot of the story-arc.
So now the Drow are pouring out the ground because... someone put ants their pants? They're hungry? They were bored? Mass Hysteria? For the same reason the chicken crossed the road?
I'm not getting it - that seems to have been the pivotal book in the series. Whats got their spider-silk panties in a bunch?
Hence the reason for my question. I really want to know if it was canceled or moved forward, or whatever.
It really did seem like the "big arc" of the Rise of the Underdark overall story, so I'm really wondering what's happened.
AFAIK, Lolth trying to take over Mystra's power and portfolio was the whole point of the book. And I think that it was also the core theme of the Encounters series for Rise of the Underdark (which people have been playing at gaming stores and cons, and such).
So yeah, I would really like to know what happened, if there was a change in plans, if there's a rewrite happening, just some bit of news. I haven't seen anything yet, though.
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 11 Oct 2012 : 00:16:51
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What it could be is that it just gave too much away. What if this story-arc was supposed to happen, and at some point far down the line we were supposed to 'discover' Lolth's true plan?
The blurb for that novel just became an epic spoiler, in that case.
I've said for a while that whoever writes their blurbs are really, really bad at it (the one for Elminster Enraged gave too much away as well). It could be as simple as finally realizing how counter-productive those blurbs were, and pulled the info... for now.
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"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Laeknir
Seeker
68 Posts |
Posted - 11 Oct 2012 : 02:27:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
What it could be is that it just gave too much away. What if this story-arc was supposed to happen, and at some point far down the line we were supposed to 'discover' Lolth's true plan?
The blurb for that novel just became an epic spoiler, in that case.
I've said for a while that whoever writes their blurbs are really, really bad at it (the one for Elminster Enraged gave too much away as well). It could be as simple as finally realizing how counter-productive those blurbs were, and pulled the info... for now.
I'd agree with this, except that it originally had a target publication date of September (last month).
I definitely agree that it's quite possible it is being re-worked or modified to mesh better with the new "Sundering" storyline/plot. I hope it isn't canceled outright, as I quite like Irvine's other works.
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 11 Oct 2012 : 05:02:20
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@ Sleyvas: To quote you “And if Corellon is the elven aspect of Lathander/Amaunator... does his being the god of Elven magic make him also Mystra? That's the problem with all this "we're all aspects" thing. As I see it, the amount of control of a deity over their particular portfolio simply needs to be addressed. Maybe we have seven deities of the moon, and all draw from adherents venerating the moon in their particular name. Same with the sun (i.e. Lathander and Amaunator are separate, and Amaunator simply tricked people).” *nods* I really wouldn’t mind there being seven deities of the moon. Why suddenly try and simplify when it hasn’t been that way before? I understand that WotC was trying to make it easier for new people to get into D&D (and as a person who has only played the game a few times and gotten confused, I can attest to that), but IMO, changing the mechanics is different from changing lore. One of course could argue that they didn’t change it, but as far as I’m concerned, making one deity an aspect of another is changing lore, unless it was stated in the beginning, like with Angharradh. And as Corellon’s devout, I don’t want him to be an aspect of Lathander/Amaunator. He has his own history, just as Lathander does. Don’t get me wrong, I love Lathander, but as Lathander, and I wouldn’t like it if Corellon turned out to be his “elven aspect”. It would screw with everything, IMO.
@ Lord Bane: “The devoute of the elven overdeity” thanks, I like that. And exactly. One could argue that those who still believe in V and E’s doctrine would go on fighting for that, like how some still follow Helm, though he is dead. It is what he stands for. But is that really going to redeem the drow? Granted, those who followed E would likely go to Arvandor, since her realm is semi in Arvandor anyway, and maybe those who followed V as well, since he became part of Eilistraee, but as you said, competition is part of drow culture, both in politics and religion. The drow should have more than one deity to follow. I know 5e is aiming to have the gods less involved with the world, but E, V, and Lolth were—and are in the case of Lolth—very active in their followers’ lives. With E and V dead, I don’t think the drow could just “follow their ideals” without the actual deities alive. Drow mentality does not work that way.
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Sweet water and light laughter |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3824 Posts |
Posted - 11 Oct 2012 : 10:21:49
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quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
[...]
I know 5e is aiming to have the gods less involved with the world, but E, V, and Lolth were—and are in the case of Lolth—very active in their followers’ lives. With E and V dead, I don’t think the drow could just “follow their ideals” without the actual deities alive. Drow mentality does not work that way.
[...]
Yes. Vhaeraun is a very active god, it doesn't take much to get him interacting with his followers and he is not blind to their needs (even tho he is not nearly as invasive as Lolth is: he doesn't impose people what to think and how to live).
Eilistraee isn't as active, tho: what she wishes is changing her people's mind, making them free and independent on a divine figure (w/o it, lolthite drow would despair and feel totally lost because of how they were indoctrinated) and she realizes that intervening too much would influence their choices, which she wants to be made spontaneously by the drow to best express and fulfill themselves, and not to come from divine teachings. Nonetheless she is still present helping them to get to make such choices, fighting for them. So yes, their 'absence' would be easily noticed.
About drow still following E and V ideas, it's pretty much impossible in canon at this point. How would they get to even hear about alternatives, considering what the situation currently is? Who would offer them such alternatives? All the drow who follow Eilistraee are now 'transformed', and even tho they'd still fight for her cause, they would be slaughtered on sight if they even tried to speak to the drow (besides the genial 'redemption' -which btw I'm sure many drow didn't need or even want- brought death upon many of the transformed elves greatly reducing their number, making this even harder). Corellon and the Seldarine don't give crap about changing the drow's mind: sure, they wouldn't refuse a drow follower -but hey: no god refuses followers- however their very clerics kill them on sight and deeply hate them (foolishly thinking that the descent was a right punishment), so even the thought of a drow living among the Tel'Quessir would be heresy, and this makes their gods' position pretty much clear.
The ones I listed above are the only people/gods who could show some interest in bringing E's and V's ideas to the drow, but either they can't or don't really care. So -even setting aside dark elven mentality- this is impossible unless the siblings are back in canon (as deities, demigods, archfeys or w/e). |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 11 Oct 2012 10:33:22 |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3824 Posts |
Posted - 12 Oct 2012 : 17:47:01
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| Looking at this preview, I think that Lolth's plan is going to fail... |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 12 Oct 2012 17:47:23 |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 12 Oct 2012 : 18:31:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
[...]
I know 5e is aiming to have the gods less involved with the world, but E, V, and Lolth were—and are in the case of Lolth—very active in their followers’ lives. With E and V dead, I don’t think the drow could just “follow their ideals” without the actual deities alive. Drow mentality does not work that way.
[...]
Yes. Vhaeraun is a very active god, it doesn't take much to get him interacting with his followers and he is not blind to their needs (even tho he is not nearly as invasive as Lolth is: he doesn't impose people what to think and how to live).
Eilistraee isn't as active, tho: what she wishes is changing her people's mind, making them free and independent on a divine figure (w/o it, lolthite drow would despair and feel totally lost because of how they were indoctrinated) and she realizes that intervening too much would influence their choices, which she wants to be made spontaneously by the drow to best express and fulfill themselves, and not to come from divine teachings. Nonetheless she is still present helping them to get to make such choices, fighting for them. So yes, their 'absence' would be easily noticed.
About drow still following E and V ideas, it's pretty much impossible in canon at this point. How would they get to even hear about alternatives, considering what the situation currently is? Who would offer them such alternatives? All the drow who follow Eilistraee are now 'transformed', and even tho they'd still fight for her cause, they would be slaughtered on sight if they even tried to speak to the drow (besides the genial 'redemption' -which btw I'm sure many drow didn't need or even want- brought death upon many of the transformed elves greatly reducing their number, making this even harder). Corellon and the Seldarine don't give crap about changing the drow's mind: sure, they wouldn't refuse a drow follower -but hey: no god refuses followers- however their very clerics kill them on sight and deeply hate them (foolishly thinking that the descent was a right punishment), so even the thought of a drow living among the Tel'Quessir would be heresy, and this makes their gods' position pretty much clear.
The ones I listed above are the only people/gods who could show some interest in bringing E's and V's ideas to the drow, but either they can't or don't really care. So -even setting aside dark elven mentality- this is impossible unless the siblings are back in canon (as deities, demigods, archfeys or w/e).
Which is why I'm hoping they are brought back into canon. The "transformed" drow were taken in by the Seldarine because Eilistraee was killed. Don't get my wrong, I was not happy about her death, or Vhaeraun's. It IS possible for the, uh, dark elves to be taken in by E again, but it's unlikely that will happen. Also, despite the rest of the drow being "doomed"--which I was not happy about either--I think if E and V were brought back, they'd have a chance.
To be fair about the Descent, the Ilythiir (sp?) did become a corrupt house and, if I remember correctly, were a big--though not only--reason for the Crown Wars. That event was a bad time in elven history all around, and I hope (and the elves do, too), never gets repeated. Their numbers cannot afford such a thing. As Corellon's Devout, I will naturally come to his defense, but I see where you're comnig from. See, even the gods aren't perfect. They can be very "human" sometimes. Personally, I'm quite fond of the Seldarine, but I do think it's a little hypocritical that Eilistraee's followers are still treated like the rest of the drow. Shevarash's followers are not supposed to touch them, but that doesn't mean they listen, and some just despise ALL drow and won't make exceptions.
I don't want the Seldarine screwed with anymore, but I would it very much if E and V came back. I hope Lolth fails in attaining the Weave, just because having the Spider Queen in charge of magic makes me cringe. Then again, that does mean she'd have to give more credit to her wizards!  |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 12 Oct 2012 : 18:38:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
Looking at this preview, I think that Lolth's plan is going to fail...
Well, yeah... I think thats what The Demon Weave blurb said as well. Neither Shar nor Lolth succeeds because they interfere with each other too much (unless is somehow revealed they are one and the same, and I'm a bit torn on that).
2 years, eh? Isn't that about when 5e is scheduled to come out? How...... fortuitous. {smirk} |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 12 Oct 2012 18:38:39 |
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Sightless
Senior Scribe
USA
608 Posts |
Posted - 12 Oct 2012 : 18:47:14
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OK, I've got to ask this one question, because it's been bugging me forever,
How come there's no scorpian God that's an enemy to Lolth?
I mean she's all about the spiders, so why hasn't anybody taken the hint and done a scorpian thing. Perhaps it sounds pasay, but frankly I think it should be done.
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We choose to live a lie, when we see with, & not through the eye.
Every decision, no matter the evidence, is a leap of faith; if it were not, then it wouldn't be a choice at all. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 12 Oct 2012 : 19:27:41
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Strange you should ask that - in some of the Maztica stuff we worked on (fan stuff over on the WotC boards), I had come up with the idea that that Tiamat was involved in the creation of the manscorpions (which is RW mythology, BTW).
You see, the Maztican drow lost contact with lolth when they were first 'marooned' on a different continent (apparently she doesn't bother looking around the rest of the planet... much), so they found the next best thing, Tiamat. We had also concluded that the Maztican pantheon were really the draconic pantheon incognito (they had different names and aspects and were worshiped by the humans and others there - this was a hold-over from when the dragon empires ruled most of Toril).
Eventually Lolth found out, and cursed those faithless. Normally she creates Driders, but because those 'jungle drow' worshiped Tiamet, they were instead warped into the manscorpion form. After finding out about the Faerûnian drow (that still existed) after the events of the Maztica trilogy, in a religious fervor they decided to carry their war (really Tiamat's war) to Lolth's worshipers on the far side of the ocean, and that is why they were migrating in that direction.
Considering that Lolth is considered a 'demon queen', and Tiamat spends most of her time 'hanging with devils' (she lives in Baator), one can see how easy it ease to picture them having a very ancient hatred and rivalry (I picture them going against each other in several Blood War battles).
All conjecture (homebrew), of course, except where the tlincallis came from and where they were going, and the bits about what the deities are and where they live.
It gets even more interesting when you connect Graz'zt to Lolth (I picture them being siblings). Lots of interesting things going on there (I imagine them having the same daddy - Maelkith). Going further, I have it where Corellon and Gruumsh are actually (paternal) twins, but with different fathers. Their mother is Titania, who has finally relinquished her throne as faery queen, last I heard. Corellon's father would have been Freyr (the Norse Vanir - NOT an Aesir), King of the Ljósálfar Elves, and Gruumsh's father would have been Maelkith (also making Araushnee/Lolth Grumsh's half-sister), King of the Svartálfar. Corellon referred to Aruashnee as 'cousin' originally, so one also can assume some connection between Maelkith and Freyr (considering these are all Archfey Elves we are talking about, and therefor immortal, nearly everyone 'back then' was probably related somehow).
That is all part of my over-cosmology, weaving the D&D lore into RW mythology and some of my 'fey musings'. The Fey pantheon is one the oldest deific pantheonns in existence, and all of their gods are worshiped under aspects by various cultures and races. YMMV. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 12 Oct 2012 19:33:41 |
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Rise of the Underdark
