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Originally posted by CorellonsDevout

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Originally posted by Irennan

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Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
[...]

I know 5e is aiming to have the gods less involved with the world, but E, V, and Lolth were—and are in the case of Lolth—very active in their followers’ lives. With E and V dead, I don’t think the drow could just “follow their ideals” without the actual deities alive. Drow mentality does not work that way.

[...]

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Yes. Vhaeraun is a very active god, it doesn't take much to get him interacting with his followers and he is not blind to their needs (even tho he is not nearly as invasive as Lolth is: he doesn't impose people what to think and how to live).
Eilistraee isn't as active, tho: what she wishes is changing her people's mind, making them free and independent on a divine figure (w/o it, lolthite drow would despair and feel totally lost because of how they were indoctrinated) and she realizes that intervening too much would influence their choices, which she wants to be made spontaneously by the drow to best express and fulfill themselves, and not to come from divine teachings. Nonetheless she is still present helping them to get to make such choices, fighting for them. So yes, their 'absence' would be easily noticed.

About drow still following E and V ideas, it's pretty much impossible in canon at this point. How would they get to even hear about alternatives, considering what the situation currently is? Who would offer them such alternatives? All the drow who follow Eilistraee are now 'transformed', and even tho they'd still fight for her cause, they would be slaughtered on sight if they even tried to speak to the drow (besides the genial 'redemption' -which btw I'm sure many drow didn't need or even want- brought death upon many of the transformed elves greatly reducing their number, making this even harder). Corellon and the Seldarine don't give crap about changing the drow's mind: sure, they wouldn't refuse a drow follower -but hey: no god refuses followers- however their very clerics kill them on sight and deeply hate them (foolishly thinking that the descent was a right punishment), so even the thought of a drow living among the Tel'Quessir would be heresy, and this makes their gods' position pretty much clear.

The ones I listed above are the only people/gods who could show some interest in bringing E's and V's ideas to the drow, but either they can't or don't really care. So -even setting aside dark elven mentality- this is impossible unless the siblings are back in canon (as deities, demigods, archfeys or w/e).

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Which is why I'm hoping they are brought back into canon. The "transformed" drow were taken in by the Seldarine because Eilistraee was killed. Don't get my wrong, I was not happy about her death, or Vhaeraun's. It IS possible for the, uh, dark elves to be taken in by E again, but it's unlikely that will happen. Also, despite the rest of the drow being "doomed"--which I was not happy about either--I think if E and V were brought back, they'd have a chance.

To be fair about the Descent, the Ilythiir (sp?) did become a corrupt house and, if I remember correctly, were a big--though not only--reason for the Crown Wars. That event was a bad time in elven history all around, and I hope (and the elves do, too), never gets repeated. Their numbers cannot afford such a thing. As Corellon's Devout, I will naturally come to his defense, but I see where you're comnig from. See, even the gods aren't perfect. They can be very "human" sometimes. Personally, I'm quite fond of the Seldarine, but I do think it's a little hypocritical that Eilistraee's followers are still treated like the rest of the drow. Shevarash's followers are not supposed to touch them, but that doesn't mean they listen, and some just despise ALL drow and won't make exceptions.

I don't want the Seldarine screwed with anymore, but I would it very much if E and V came back. I hope Lolth fails in attaining the Weave, just because having the Spider Queen in charge of magic makes me cringe. Then again, that does mean she'd have to give more credit to her wizards!

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Originally posted by Markustay


2 years, eh? Isn't that about when 5e is scheduled to come out? How...... fortuitous. {smirk}

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Originally posted by Irennan

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Originally posted by CorellonsDevout

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Originally posted by Irennan

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Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
[...]

I know 5e is aiming to have the gods less involved with the world, but E, V, and Lolth were—and are in the case of Lolth—very active in their followers’ lives. With E and V dead, I don’t think the drow could just “follow their ideals” without the actual deities alive. Drow mentality does not work that way.

[...]

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Yes. Vhaeraun is a very active god, it doesn't take much to get him interacting with his followers and he is not blind to their needs (even tho he is not nearly as invasive as Lolth is: he doesn't impose people what to think and how to live).
Eilistraee isn't as active, tho: what she wishes is changing her people's mind, making them free and independent on a divine figure (w/o it, lolthite drow would despair and feel totally lost because of how they were indoctrinated) and she realizes that intervening too much would influence their choices, which she wants to be made spontaneously by the drow to best express and fulfill themselves, and not to come from divine teachings. Nonetheless she is still present helping them to get to make such choices, fighting for them. So yes, their 'absence' would be easily noticed.

About drow still following E and V ideas, it's pretty much impossible in canon at this point. How would they get to even hear about alternatives, considering what the situation currently is? Who would offer them such alternatives? All the drow who follow Eilistraee are now 'transformed', and even tho they'd still fight for her cause, they would be slaughtered on sight if they even tried to speak to the drow (besides the genial 'redemption' -which btw I'm sure many drow didn't need or even want- brought death upon many of the transformed elves greatly reducing their number, making this even harder). Corellon and the Seldarine don't give crap about changing the drow's mind: sure, they wouldn't refuse a drow follower -but hey: no god refuses followers- however their very clerics kill them on sight and deeply hate them (foolishly thinking that the descent was a right punishment), so even the thought of a drow living among the Tel'Quessir would be heresy, and this makes their gods' position pretty much clear.

The ones I listed above are the only people/gods who could show some interest in bringing E's and V's ideas to the drow, but either they can't or don't really care. So -even setting aside dark elven mentality- this is impossible unless the siblings are back in canon (as deities, demigods, archfeys or w/e).

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Which is why I'm hoping they are brought back into canon. The "transformed" drow were taken in by the Seldarine because Eilistraee was killed. Don't get my wrong, I was not happy about her death, or Vhaeraun's. It IS possible for the, uh, dark elves to be taken in by E again, but it's unlikely that will happen. Also, despite the rest of the drow being "doomed"--which I was not happy about either--I think if E and V were brought back, they'd have a chance.

To be fair about the Descent, the Ilythiir (sp?) did become a corrupt house and, if I remember correctly, were a big--though not only--reason for the Crown Wars. That event was a bad time in elven history all around, and I hope (and the elves do, too), never gets repeated. Their numbers cannot afford such a thing. As Corellon's Devout, I will naturally come to his defense, but I see where you're comnig from. See, even the gods aren't perfect. They can be very "human" sometimes. Personally, I'm quite fond of the Seldarine, but I do think it's a little hypocritical that Eilistraee's followers are still treated like the rest of the drow. Shevarash's followers are not supposed to touch them, but that doesn't mean they listen, and some just despise ALL drow and won't make exceptions.

I don't want the Seldarine screwed with anymore, but I would it very much if E and V came back. I hope Lolth fails in attaining the Weave, just because having the Spider Queen in charge of magic makes me cringe. Then again, that does mean she'd have to give more credit to her wizards!

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Dooming an entire race for the errors of some people is extremely stupid, no matter how you put it (and the way it was done makes it look like the concept of 'Original Sin', which is just badwrong). I really don't think that the common dark elf deserved that, let alone the miyeritari (who are only victims in the Crown Wars). Also, the Illythiri sure did bad things, but in war everyone does so. And their 'crimes' are nothing if compared to the Dark Disaster that the Sun Elves unleashed on Myieritar (which was a kingdom devout to Eilistraee and Sehanine, not Lolth, and was about as much culturally, artistically and magically advanced as Aryvandaar), and yet the Sun Elves weren't even touched by any sort of 'divine smiting'(only the Vyshaan suffered their well deserved fate, as it should've been with the people at the head of Illythir, instead of cursing the whole race). It really seems to me that the reason Corellon powered the descent is the fact that the illythiri chose Lolth and Vhaeraun over him. And yet, not only the Seldarine don't admit their error, but keep not caring at all about the drow, instead of trying to free them (which Eilistraee -and even Vhaeraun- do without any kind of help on their side. One has to wonder where all of them were during the WotSQ and LP events: the only one to show up is Corellon, and only to grab the result of the work of his daughter, apparently not even caring about her fate and without moving a single finger to help. I have to admit that the portrayal of him that emerges from his absence in these events is the one of a ever-absent, never-caring god).

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Originally posted by Sightless

To respond to this let us start with a Drow totally unrelated to both of the dead syblings. Drizzt. I bring him up for one reason, with have a drow, with all the priveledge that he had, that he could have had, go totally one eight from the drow perspective.

Is this a one time fluck, I don't think so, especially not where the commoners are concerned. Let us then hold that there a portion of the drow that feel traped like that great weapon master felt traped, just trying to make the best of what they see as a bad situation. You might say, but the drow are iiindoctrenated heavily, to which I respond there have been human groups that rejected just as strong levels of indoctrination, the White Rose for instence. Now, we have this, but we also have the followers of those two gods still around. Let us assume that they know there gods are dead, or believe in the possibility of their gods being dead. From there perspective they are dammed. They can't go back to the idology that they once held, at least not the majority of them, both systems of thought process are totally against that which Lolth teaches. So they are dammed, no matter what they do they are dammed, to the spider queens tormints. This is a perfectly logical thought process so far, the response to it is equally logical, surrender, flight, or

"one can say that the chains that hold me here are beyond my control. That the walls made by a demon spider queenn to great for me to tare down. They say that I am trapped in a world of constrants that I can't ever hope to change. A world where all manner of horrible deeds are condoned in the name of a hellish God.

I do not except this world, therefor I shall always say no"(Letters to myself, from myself, reminders to me.)

Coming to this conclusion the drow that accept this seeing no personal hope will start a gurrila war against the spider queen. Blasfumiss messages begin appearing scrolled on walls, priestess killed. If one gets caught, then what of it, they are dammed. So they have nothing to lose. This is the most deadly of enemies, the one that has nothing to lose.

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Originally posted by Sightless

OK, I've got to ask this one question, because it's been bugging me forever,

How come there's no scorpian God that's an enemy to Lolth?

I mean she's all about the spiders, so why hasn't anybody taken the hint and done a scorpian thing. Perhaps it sounds pasay, but frankly I think it should be done.

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Originally posted by farinal
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Because I think drow vs. surfacers is a wrong theme to go. Dark Seldarine vs Dark Seldarine WAS the way to go :)

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Originally posted by Irennan

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Originally posted by CorellonsDevout

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Originally posted by Irennan

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Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
[...]

I know 5e is aiming to have the gods less involved with the world, but E, V, and Lolth were—and are in the case of Lolth—very active in their followers’ lives. With E and V dead, I don’t think the drow could just “follow their ideals” without the actual deities alive. Drow mentality does not work that way.

[...]

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Yes. Vhaeraun is a very active god, it doesn't take much to get him interacting with his followers and he is not blind to their needs (even tho he is not nearly as invasive as Lolth is: he doesn't impose people what to think and how to live).
Eilistraee isn't as active, tho: what she wishes is changing her people's mind, making them free and independent on a divine figure (w/o it, lolthite drow would despair and feel totally lost because of how they were indoctrinated) and she realizes that intervening too much would influence their choices, which she wants to be made spontaneously by the drow to best express and fulfill themselves, and not to come from divine teachings. Nonetheless she is still present helping them to get to make such choices, fighting for them. So yes, their 'absence' would be easily noticed.

About drow still following E and V ideas, it's pretty much impossible in canon at this point. How would they get to even hear about alternatives, considering what the situation currently is? Who would offer them such alternatives? All the drow who follow Eilistraee are now 'transformed', and even tho they'd still fight for her cause, they would be slaughtered on sight if they even tried to speak to the drow (besides the genial 'redemption' -which btw I'm sure many drow didn't need or even want- brought death upon many of the transformed elves greatly reducing their number, making this even harder). Corellon and the Seldarine don't give crap about changing the drow's mind: sure, they wouldn't refuse a drow follower -but hey: no god refuses followers- however their very clerics kill them on sight and deeply hate them (foolishly thinking that the descent was a right punishment), so even the thought of a drow living among the Tel'Quessir would be heresy, and this makes their gods' position pretty much clear.

The ones I listed above are the only people/gods who could show some interest in bringing E's and V's ideas to the drow, but either they can't or don't really care. So -even setting aside dark elven mentality- this is impossible unless the siblings are back in canon (as deities, demigods, archfeys or w/e).

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Which is why I'm hoping they are brought back into canon. The "transformed" drow were taken in by the Seldarine because Eilistraee was killed. Don't get my wrong, I was not happy about her death, or Vhaeraun's. It IS possible for the, uh, dark elves to be taken in by E again, but it's unlikely that will happen. Also, despite the rest of the drow being "doomed"--which I was not happy about either--I think if E and V were brought back, they'd have a chance.

To be fair about the Descent, the Ilythiir (sp?) did become a corrupt house and, if I remember correctly, were a big--though not only--reason for the Crown Wars. That event was a bad time in elven history all around, and I hope (and the elves do, too), never gets repeated. Their numbers cannot afford such a thing. As Corellon's Devout, I will naturally come to his defense, but I see where you're comnig from. See, even the gods aren't perfect. They can be very "human" sometimes. Personally, I'm quite fond of the Seldarine, but I do think it's a little hypocritical that Eilistraee's followers are still treated like the rest of the drow. Shevarash's followers are not supposed to touch them, but that doesn't mean they listen, and some just despise ALL drow and won't make exceptions.

I don't want the Seldarine screwed with anymore, but I would it very much if E and V came back. I hope Lolth fails in attaining the Weave, just because having the Spider Queen in charge of magic makes me cringe. Then again, that does mean she'd have to give more credit to her wizards!

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Dooming an entire race for the errors of some people is extremely stupid, no matter how you put it (and the way it was done makes it look like the concept of 'Original Sin', which is just badwrong). I really don't think that the common dark elf deserved that, let alone the miyeritari (who are only victims in the Crown Wars). Also, the Illythiri sure did bad things, but in war everyone does so. And their 'crimes' are nothing if compared to the Dark Disaster that the Sun Elves unleashed on Myieritar (which was a kingdom devout to Eilistraee and Sehanine, not Lolth, and was about as much culturally, artistically and magically advanced as Aryvandaar), and yet the Sun Elves weren't even touched by any sort of 'divine smiting'(only the Vyshaan suffered their well deserved fate, as it should've been with the people at the head of Illythir, instead of cursing the whole race). It really seems to me that the reason Corellon powered the descent was the fact that the illythiri chose Lolth and Vhaeraun over him. And yet, not only the Seldarine don't admit their error, but keep not caring at all about the drow, instead of trying to free them (which Eilistraee -and even Vhaeraun- do without any kind of help on their side. One has to wonder where all of them were during the WotSQ and LP events: the only one to show up was Corellon, and only to grab the result of the work of his daughter, apparently not even caring about her fate and without moving a single finger to help. I have to admit that the portrayal of him that emerges from his absence in these events is the one of a ever-absent, never-caring god).

PS: the Sun Elves of Aryvandaar started the whole conflict by claiming that they should've been the ruling house of Myieritar (by some loose family relation, or something like that -which obviously was only an excuse to attack).

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Originally posted by Irennan

About the RotU, drow from all Faerun are 'working' to retrieve relics holy to Mystra that Lolth will use to craft her own Weave, so that its power can be used to shroud Toril in shadows and conquer it all. That's it, AFAIK.

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Originally posted by CorellonsDevout

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Originally posted by Irennan

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Originally posted by CorellonsDevout

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Originally posted by Irennan

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Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
[...]

I know 5e is aiming to have the gods less involved with the world, but E, V, and Lolth were—and are in the case of Lolth—very active in their followers’ lives. With E and V dead, I don’t think the drow could just “follow their ideals” without the actual deities alive. Drow mentality does not work that way.

[...]

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Yes. Vhaeraun is a very active god, it doesn't take much to get him interacting with his followers and he is not blind to their needs (even tho he is not nearly as invasive as Lolth is: he doesn't impose people what to think and how to live).
Eilistraee isn't as active, tho: what she wishes is changing her people's mind, making them free and independent on a divine figure (w/o it, lolthite drow would despair and feel totally lost because of how they were indoctrinated) and she realizes that intervening too much would influence their choices, which she wants to be made spontaneously by the drow to best express and fulfill themselves, and not to come from divine teachings. Nonetheless she is still present helping them to get to make such choices, fighting for them. So yes, their 'absence' would be easily noticed.

About drow still following E and V ideas, it's pretty much impossible in canon at this point. How would they get to even hear about alternatives, considering what the situation currently is? Who would offer them such alternatives? All the drow who follow Eilistraee are now 'transformed', and even tho they'd still fight for her cause, they would be slaughtered on sight if they even tried to speak to the drow (besides the genial 'redemption' -which btw I'm sure many drow didn't need or even want- brought death upon many of the transformed elves greatly reducing their number, making this even harder). Corellon and the Seldarine don't give crap about changing the drow's mind: sure, they wouldn't refuse a drow follower -but hey: no god refuses followers- however their very clerics kill them on sight and deeply hate them (foolishly thinking that the descent was a right punishment), so even the thought of a drow living among the Tel'Quessir would be heresy, and this makes their gods' position pretty much clear.

The ones I listed above are the only people/gods who could show some interest in bringing E's and V's ideas to the drow, but either they can't or don't really care. So -even setting aside dark elven mentality- this is impossible unless the siblings are back in canon (as deities, demigods, archfeys or w/e).

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Which is why I'm hoping they are brought back into canon. The "transformed" drow were taken in by the Seldarine because Eilistraee was killed. Don't get my wrong, I was not happy about her death, or Vhaeraun's. It IS possible for the, uh, dark elves to be taken in by E again, but it's unlikely that will happen. Also, despite the rest of the drow being "doomed"--which I was not happy about either--I think if E and V were brought back, they'd have a chance.

To be fair about the Descent, the Ilythiir (sp?) did become a corrupt house and, if I remember correctly, were a big--though not only--reason for the Crown Wars. That event was a bad time in elven history all around, and I hope (and the elves do, too), never gets repeated. Their numbers cannot afford such a thing. As Corellon's Devout, I will naturally come to his defense, but I see where you're comnig from. See, even the gods aren't perfect. They can be very "human" sometimes. Personally, I'm quite fond of the Seldarine, but I do think it's a little hypocritical that Eilistraee's followers are still treated like the rest of the drow. Shevarash's followers are not supposed to touch them, but that doesn't mean they listen, and some just despise ALL drow and won't make exceptions.

I don't want the Seldarine screwed with anymore, but I would it very much if E and V came back. I hope Lolth fails in attaining the Weave, just because having the Spider Queen in charge of magic makes me cringe. Then again, that does mean she'd have to give more credit to her wizards!

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Dooming an entire race for the errors of some people is extremely stupid, no matter how you put it (and the way it was done makes it look like the concept of 'Original Sin', which is just badwrong). I really don't think that the common dark elf deserved that, let alone the miyeritari (who are only victims in the Crown Wars). Also, the Illythiri sure did bad things, but in war everyone does so. And their 'crimes' are nothing if compared to the Dark Disaster that the Sun Elves unleashed on Myieritar (which was a kingdom devout to Eilistraee and Sehanine, not Lolth, and was about as much culturally, artistically and magically advanced as Aryvandaar), and yet the Sun Elves weren't even touched by any sort of 'divine smiting'(only the Vyshaan suffered their well deserved fate, as it should've been with the people at the head of Illythir, instead of cursing the whole race). It really seems to me that the reason Corellon powered the descent was the fact that the illythiri chose Lolth and Vhaeraun over him. And yet, not only the Seldarine don't admit their error, but keep not caring at all about the drow, instead of trying to free them (which Eilistraee -and even Vhaeraun- do without any kind of help on their side. One has to wonder where all of them were during the WotSQ and LP events: the only one to show up was Corellon, and only to grab the result of the work of his daughter, apparently not even caring about her fate and without moving a single finger to help. I have to admit that the portrayal of him that emerges from his absence in these events is the one of a ever-absent, never-caring god).

PS: the Sun Elves of Aryvandaar started the whole conflict by claiming that they should've been the ruling house of Myieritar (by some loose family relation, or something like that -which obviously was only an excuse to attack).

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I think it's fair to say we're going to disagree, because I obviously am fond of Corellon, but I see your point. The Crown Wars were bad all around, and in some ways the elves were acting very much like drow, with the different houses/clans fighting. It greatly diminished their numbers and morale to say the least.

As for the events in Lady Penitent: I don't think it's that Corellon didn't care (we know that he at least cares for the elves), but maybe he didn't want to show weakness in front of Lolth (and it was at the very end of the book, so maybe Lisa was limited to how much she could say, but I guess that's irrelevant). I really have no answer to that, and since people are saying LP wasn't "canon", who knows what they are going to do? I think it should be addresseed though. Well I have mixed feelings about the "brown drow" (were the Ilythiir even brown?), I'd like to see the results. Whatever your feelings towards Corellon, the end of that trilogy was a cliff hanger. But with the plan to make the gods less active in 5e anyway...who knows what will happen...

I hope Eilistraee and Vhaeraun come back as separate deities. I guess I could live with the "Masked Lady", because it's better than nothing, but that would just diminish the males again by making females the majority in the drow pantheon. I'm not inlcuding Ghauandaur because he's just a blob, and I don't really care for Selvatarm either. Ultimately, V and E are essential, IMO.

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Sadly, LP is canon: not for me or many others, but it is for Wizbros.

It's not that I hate Corellon, or something like that. I deeply dislike how he presented in the FR, his action really don't make sense, and to not show up to help his own daughter repairing something he took part in causing... well, lets say that it isn't the best course of action.

But again it's not like those novels gave a good image of any god ('cept Lolth). The game itself -the premise of everything- was badwrong IMO: by joining it both E and V defeated their own purposes (besides, it's Lolth's game. Who would ever gamble life and the fate of a race in it?) i.e inspiring the courage to choose freedom, or the hatred to lit the flame of rebellion, aiding the drow in finally forge their own way. Instead it turned the fight for the freedom of a race -which should be absolutely fought by the mortal themselves (with E and V to help and inspire it, not to act as manipulators)- into a match where the mortal had basically no choice because their actions were commanded by their deities, as if they were pawns and not the movers. There's also the fact of E being depicted as a sexist 'get Lolth' kind of deity, but you get what I want to say.

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I think that avoiding this kind of portrayal is the reason that leads many people to not want the gods to directly intervene, but to simply make their followers feel that even if they don't appear to have a coffee with people (i.e. meddle in their lives), they are there with them, fighting for their common goal nonetheless.

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Originally posted by Laeknir

About the Lady Penitent series, I'd like to point out a couple very important things.

As much as people hate the outcome for "killing Eilistraee" and "killing Vhaeraun" and so forth, Lisa Smedman was actually very clever and never showed either of those events on screen. Rather, at the moment of Vhaeraun's alleged death, we see no killing blow at all. It's all off-screen, really. This potentially opens up several possibilities. It's entirely possible that Eilistraee forced Vhaeraun to temporarily become the "mask" (just as the god Mask became a sword for a time) and bolster her power as she confronted Lolth. Since the "death" is all off-page, the author left interpretations open. It's the assumptions of the clergy, on both sides, that argue for Vhaeraun's death.

Also, at the time that Eilistraee's avatar (one of them) was inhabiting Qilue, the Crescent Blade's taint had been removed. We know that it no longer had the power to destroy souls because the warrior-priestess showed up on the Fugue Plain after she was decapitated by the Blade. So when it was used to kill Qilue/Eili-avatar, it only had the power to kill. Qilue died, but we do not know what happened to her soul. We do know that it could not have been destroyed by the Crescent Blade, but that is all.

Furthermore, Eilistraee is never shown actually dying or being killed. She simply "vanishes from the board" which confused Lolth tremendously. Eilistraee's realm "wavered" as it transferred to Corellon, but it did not discorporate. Again, it's the souls and living priestesses of Eilistraee (and formerly Vhaeraun) that believe that both of them died. They both lost their status as deities, certainly. But did either of them have ALL of their avatars destroyed? Such things are not seen in the novel series, so we have a very clever author here who left a LOT open to interpretation and return.

Therefore:
- Vhaeraun may be alive, even though he has not been a deity for some time.
- we have no idea where Qilue's soul went, though it's probable location is Arvandor (with Corellon).
- Eilistraee may also be alive, even though she's no longer currently a deity.
- we only know the assumptions made by various souls/priests/priestesses, not the full story.

Just saying.

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Originally posted by CorellonsDevout


Ah, I got the impression you hated him. I recently joined the WotC site, and there was a forum talking about gods (can’t remember exactly), and someone mentioned Cyric, and someone that had the name Irenan said something like “only if he kills Lolth and Corellon, otherwise, screw him”. I thought it was you since the name was the same.

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You bring up a good and interesting point here, and one I hadn’t really thought of. In some ways, I thought the sava game between Eilistraee and Lolth was cool, but in other ways, I can certainly understand why people wouldn’t want to be pawns. I guess I just don’t want the gods completely inactive, but I suppose technically speaking, “less active” is not quite the same as “inactive”.

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About the Lady Penitent series, I'd like to point out a couple very important things.

As much as people hate the outcome for "killing Eilistraee" and "killing Vhaeraun" and so forth, Lisa Smedman was actually very clever and never showed either of those events on screen. Rather, at the moment of Vhaeraun's alleged death, we see no killing blow at all. It's all off-screen, really. This potentially opens up several possibilities. It's entirely possible that Eilistraee forced Vhaeraun to temporarily become the "mask" (just as the god Mask became a sword for a time) and bolster her power as she confronted Lolth. Since the "death" is all off-page, the author left interpretations open. It's the assumptions of the clergy, on both sides, that argue for Vhaeraun's death.

Also, at the time that Eilistraee's avatar (one of them) was inhabiting Qilue, the Crescent Blade's taint had been removed. We know that it no longer had the power to destroy souls because the darksong-knight Cavatina showed up on the Fugue Plain after she was decapitated by the Blade. So when it was later used to kill Qilue/Eili-avatar, it did not have the power to destroy souls, only to kill mortals. Qilue died, but we do not know what happened to her soul. We do know that it could not have been destroyed by the Crescent Blade, but that is all.

Furthermore, Eilistraee is never shown actually dying or being killed. She simply "vanishes from the board" which confused Lolth tremendously. Eilistraee's realm "wavered" as it transferred to Corellon, but it did not discorporate. Again, it's the souls and living priestesses of Eilistraee (and formerly Vhaeraun) that believe that both of them died. They both lost their status as deities, certainly. But did either of them have ALL of their avatars destroyed? Such things are not seen in the novel series, so we have a very clever author here who left a LOT open to interpretation and return.

Therefore:
- Vhaeraun may be alive, even though he has not been a deity for some time.
- we have no idea where Qilue's soul went, though it's probable location is Arvandor (with Corellon).
- Eilistraee may also be alive, even though she's no longer currently a deity.
- we only know the assumptions made by various souls/priests/priestesses, not the full story.

Just saying.

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Originally posted by CorellonsDevout

Could (Corellon) have done more to help Eilistraee? Yes. I’m his devout, but I’ve read some things that make me go *headdesk*. I can think of other gods I like who I sometimes shake my head at. The gods act very "human sometimes," but the consequences of their actions are magnified because they are gods. At least Corellon saved Eilistraee’s realm, for which I was thankful for. Some of my favorite characters were Eilistraeens or Vhaeraunites, who were taken in by her when they merged (Naxil, and Qilue’s late consort, Elkantar, Valdar, and…Karus(?)—I forgot exactly--to name a few). So if her realm was destroyed, either the souls would have been snagged by Lolth or disintegrated.

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Originally posted by Irennan

Yes, I'm aware of this, and it's the reason why I think Lisa Smedman did something good (even tho, you know, all that sexism should've been kept off. And the game is something really bad for what it represents, especially in relation to Eilistraeens and Vhaerunites). That said, we can speculate how much we want about what happened (or ignore everything altogether, like I do), but my point is that as long as Wizbros are concerned, the siblings are no longer in the canonical Realms and their story and quest probably won't continue there, which is just a shame.

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PS: Also, it is beyond me how a lesser deity would find the power to craft a weapon capable of killing everything on Toril but Ao...

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Originally posted by Laeknir

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Originally posted by CorellonsDevout

Could (Corellon) have done more to help Eilistraee? Yes. I’m his devout, but I’ve read some things that make me go *headdesk*. I can think of other gods I like who I sometimes shake my head at. The gods act very "human sometimes," but the consequences of their actions are magnified because they are gods. At least Corellon saved Eilistraee’s realm, for which I was thankful for. Some of my favorite characters were Eilistraeens or Vhaeraunites, who were taken in by her when they merged (Naxil, and Qilue’s late consort, Elkantar, Valdar, and…Karus(?)—I forgot exactly--to name a few). So if her realm was destroyed, either the souls would have been snagged by Lolth or disintegrated.

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Just another thing to keep in mind, Corellon's reactions at the end of Lady Penitent ARE quite odd considering that he loved Eilistraee and probably hoped for Vhaeraun's redemption. We see a very calm, dispassionate Corellon, not a god who has just had two of his children probably killed.

I suspect that Corellon knew about Eilistraee's plan (or most of it) from the beginning. If he actually is harboring Eilistraee and Vhaeraun, perhaps as elf-exarchs or something similar, his lack of anger with Lolth makes total sense. In fact, he might be suppressing his pride and happiness that Eilistraee managed to cleanse so many drow of Wendonai's blood-taint.

As to the nature of being "pawns" for gods, I'm not sure that's the best description of what's going on. With the metaphorical Sava board game, anyone that's a "pawn" is actually someone who has chosen to be a priest, darksong knight, or other agent working for a deity's primary goals. So these "pawns" did have the freedom of choice. They chose to be available for their deity to "use" in furthering their common goals, more so than a lay-person worshipper probably would.

As to the cleansing or "salvation" of the drow, I probably am looking at it in a very different way than what we typically think of as "salvation" in real-world religion. In the real world, "salvation" is a concept by which an intermediary (e.g. Christ) absolves one of sins so that a soul can automatically enter heaven. I don't think this is at all similar to the drow with the taint of Wendonai.

With Wendonai, his blood/taint operates as a magical curse. It means, functionally, that a drow with the taint is more likely to be cruel, evil, and so forth. It doesn't mean that a cursed/tainted drow couldn't decide to be good, it just means that they have more than just their cultural norms to fight against. Being cleansed of the taint doesn't mean a drow will be good, it just makes them start off with an even accounting. A cleansed drow un-stacks the deck, meaning that Lolth must rely on "nurture" (the evils of drow culture) alone in order to push a drow toward becoming evil. Any dark elf raised in a non-drow culture/society can end up being any alignment without a pre-existing "pull" toward evil.

That's the way I look at it, anyway. Eilistraee didn't sacrifice her life IMO, she sacrificed her power as a deity. That power purged the taint of Wendonai just as Mystra's silver fire can purge demonic/diabolic energies.

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Originally posted by Irennan

That game seemed to be much more than just metaphorical to me, it looked like it was the power of the game (i.e. Ao's power) to be taking deities away, not the actual events, and it looked like it started everything. Also, collaboration can be represented in much better ways than offering oneself as pawn (which is the symbol of expendability and domination), simply working for a shared goal would've done just fine. Eilistraee (and to an extent even Vhaeraun) moving people as chess pieces feels just off to me.

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About the curse, I'm not bothered by the removal of Wendonai's taint, but rather by the turning into brownies. Again, people didn't have a choice here: they were deprived of their identity (which led to death for most drow living in the Underdark) when they were just fine as drow (how would you feel if you all of sudden turned into something different because apparently your form was 'cursed'), or even proud to be dark elves fighting for the freedom of their people. I don't recall Eilistraeens or Vhaerunites ever complaining about who they are.

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As for Eilistraee sacrificing her divinity: it's funny that you mention it, since this (very fitting kind of sacrifice, which would've have allowed her to still fight for her people) is what would've been explained in the Menzo book if WotC didn't decide to remove it.

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Originally posted by Laeknir

Perhaps. That's the beauty of Smedman leaving things so open to interpretation. Was it a metaphor? Are mortals pawns or do they have free will? The way I see things, pawns can often capture extremely powerful pieces. Chess can take on a sort of life of its own that surprises its players, of course, and Sava is somewhat more complicated from its description. I don't mind either so much really. As the goddess(es) move pieces, one could say that Lolth is forcing her minions to do certain things and Eilistraee is suggesting a course for hers. Once a move is made, the outcome isn't so certain in Sava.

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I'm not convinced that the "brown" thing is all that obvious. I don't think it literally changed skin color, though I could be wrong on that part. If it did, that's pretty bad. If it didn't, to my mind the change was internal: someone cleansed would no longer have a curse pressuring them toward evil. I don't see that removal would change nationalistic or racial pride, since they are still the same race after all.

Also, one might say that the act of becoming a Vhaeraunite or an Eilistraeen definitely is a complaint about their "nomal" Lolthian society. It's a rejection of normal drow culture, at least on an internal, personal level.

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As for Eilistraee sacrificing her divinity: it's funny that you mention it, since this (very fitting kind of sacrifice, which would've have allowed her to still fight for her people) is what would've been explained in the Menzo book if WotC didn't decide to remove it.

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Perhaps. I've no idea what the plan was, or what was removed. Have the new Menzo authors posted anything to this effect? If so, that would be interesting to see for sure.

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Originally posted by Irennan

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Originally posted by CorellonsDevout


Ah, I got the impression you hated him. I recently joined the WotC site, and there was a forum talking about gods (can’t remember exactly), and someone mentioned Cyric, and someone that had the name Irenan said something like “only if he kills Lolth and Corellon, otherwise, screw him”. I thought it was you since the name was the same.

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It was me, but I was just kidding

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Originally posted by Irennan

To me it doesn't matter what a mere pawn can capture, I feel that letting deities fighting over the destiny of a race is inappropriate itself, let alone if they do it by playing a chess game where pawns are the member of said race. Add to this that (some of) the deities who play it kind of defeat their own point by doing so. I've already said it: point of Eilistraee is giving the drow their lives back, having them choose and create their own path and future (she even tries to not interfere much with them because she is aware that such kind of choice must come from understanding, and is very personal): the fact that she is depicted as playing a game over it instead of fighting with them (letting them be the main movers) feels off to me. It's what being pawns in a chess game symbolizes as opposed to what the siblings stand for that bothers me. But maybe it's just me reading too much into things.

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They were turned into what they were pre-descent (brown skinned elves, i.e. more or less wood elves), and they're not the same race. Eilistraeens and Vhaerunites hate standard drow society -sure- and dedicate themselves to the cause of their deities, because they want freedom for themselves and their people: they're rebels who fight for their race, not exiles who hide from it. Their complaint is about the kind of life that Lolth imposes to the drow, not about their identity. They are totally fine with being drow (even if it means being 'cursed' by the Corellon's descent) and even proud of it (and I mean Liriel-like proud, not necessarily racist or nationalist, even tho they can be so -especially Vhaerunites-. Just imagine what she would think about turning into a 'normal' elf).

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I've started a thread for this both here and on the WotC boards (and quoted there what one of the authors said about the matter), and even wrote a mail to their customer service to propose the release of the cut material about E and V.

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Originally posted by CorellonsDevout

@Laeknir: your words had me thinking, so I looked in my copy of Ascendancy of the Last, in which Lashrael and Felarathael greet Cavatina’s soul as many souls are flooding into Arvandor, and they do say Eilistraee’s death was “all part of the plan” and then “there is no further need for Eilistraee. The willing were saved, the unwilling cast down. It is time for the dark elves to return to Arvandor.” And Lashrael cries “so many souls to gather! Where shall we begin?” And Felarathael’s response is “with this one (referring to Cavatina) and then , on to the realm where the remainder of Eilistraee’s faithful dance”. I’d actually forgotten the details of this exchange. Falarathael and Lashrael go onto say that Qilue’s soul was destroyed, which to me implies she wouldn’t be in Arvandor (Elkantar will not be happy about that, I’m sure. He’s been waiting for his Qilue since he’s own death).

But, the statement “It is time for the dark elves to return to Arvandor” makes me wonder if the dark elves are the souls of the redeemed drow. Is this why we haven’t heard anymore about them: because there are no living dark elves? But then that wouldn’t really make sense, because Q’arlynd and his companions also became dark elves, and they remained alive on Toril, so it makes me think that some dark elves remained alive.

Like I said earlier concerning Corellon’s reaction to Eilistraee’s death, he could be trying to hide his true emotions so as not to show weakness in front of Lolth, or, as you said, he could be secretly harboring her and Vhaeraun, which would add another layer of “all part of the plan, there is no further need for Eilistraee”. You’re right, he did care for Eilistraee, and in Evermeet it showed his reluctance to cast her out of Arvandor so there could be a balance.

I greatly enjoyed this series (though several of my favoriter characters died), and I have been waiting to see more results. But if what Iranan says is true about them no longer being in canon...

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Originally posted by Laeknir

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Originally posted by Irennan

To me it doesn't matter what a mere pawn can capture, I feel that letting deities fighting over the destiny of a race is inappropriate itself, let alone if they do it by playing a chess game where pawns are the member of said race. Add to this that (some of) the deities who play it kind of defeat their own point by doing so. I've already said it: point of Eilistraee is giving the drow their lives back, having them choose and create their own path and future (she even tries to not interfere much with them because she is aware that such kind of choice must come from understanding, and is very personal): the fact that she is depicted as playing a game over it instead of fighting with them (letting them be the main movers) feels off to me. It's what being pawns in a chess game symbolizes as opposed to what the siblings stand for that bothers me. But maybe it's just me reading too much into things.

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I guess I just see it very differently. To me, the gods in FR have been strongly influenced by their own faithful. Are you the pawn (or right hand, or tool, or sword, etc.) of your god, or does your belief and faith also influence the deity as well? Based on what we know about Amaunator/Lathander and Talos/Gruumsh, it seems to work both ways, really.

That said, my own personal preference is for deities that are VERY distant and never show up as actual avatars or speak directly to their faithful. But that sort of died with 1E, it's definitely not that way in the Realms now.

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They were turned into what they were pre-descent (brown skinned elves, i.e. more or less wood elves), and they're not the same race. Eilistraeens and Vhaerunites hate standard drow society -sure- and dedicate themselves to the cause of their deities, because they want freedom for themselves and their people: they're rebels who fight for their race, not exiles who hide from it. Their complaint is about the kind of life that Lolth imposes to the drow, not about their identity. They are totally fine with being drow (even if it means being 'cursed' by the Corellon's descent) and even proud of it (and I mean Liriel-like proud, not necessarily racist or nationalist, even tho they can be so -especially Vhaerunites-. Just imagine what she would think about turning into a 'normal' elf).

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I guess I'll go back and re-read the ending, but I don't remember the surviving priests/priestesses having gone through any physical change. I didn't get the impression at all that their skin changed from inky black to brown. Rather, I think the brown vs. black thing has always been an art issue rather than something "real" in that sense.

That said, maybe Eilistraee's cleansing did change her faithful (and any with Wendonai's taint) from inky-black drow into brown-skinned dark elves. If this is something literal that is in print in a 4E sourcebook, then I'd totally agree with you that it's bad. All the way around. But I didn't buy anything in 4E in order to check this, so I can't personally verify this. Is it actually in a sourcebook?

Bear in mind, I wouldn't just take "drow" vs. "dark elf" as proof of a skin-color change. As we know, those often aren't indicative of separate races but rather are sometimes just meant to convey minor stat differences based on having a PC from one culture vs. another culture. I'd really want to see an actual description of "their skin color changed" or something along those lines. Otherwise, it's really probably just an art issue and semantics based on regional origin.

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I've started a thread for this both here and on the WotC boards (and quoted there what one of the authors said about the matter), and even wrote a mail to their customer service to propose the release of the cut material about E and V.

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Interesting, but unfortunately the author quote doesn't give much detail other than the intent to bring Eilistraee and Vhaeraun back as arch-fey. I'm not sure that would satisfy fans who preferred them as actual deities.

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Originally posted by Irennan

What I'm questioning here is what that game represented. You don't depict a goddess who fights for freedom as playing chess gambling her goal and using followers as pawns. Setting aside what we could read into it, this is the representation and what emerges from the books. But we've just different ideas here.

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'Redeemed' drow weren't even remotely considered in any kind of development AFAIK. But we know that the Corellon's Descent was reverted, turning them back to pre Crown Wars Tel'Quessir. And my point is that there were many (among the few reverted) drow who didn't need or even want this (again, take Liriel), not to mention that this transformation led many drow to death by lolthite hand or by Underdark hazards. Absolutely not something to sacrifice oneself (not one's life, at least) for, especially when you still have one whole race to fight for (even assuming that E's was really some kind of sacrifice).

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Well, if they sacrificed their divinity, they can't be deities (not now, at least). This doesn't prevent them from trying to get their godhood back (this could be a story idea), or Ao from promoting them again, if that is what has to happen. So yes, I'd really like to see this released (it's a basis for further development and looks like a fitting way to return both E and V).

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About Corellon secretly protecting E and V, or they sacrificing their divinity and surviving as Archfey, Exarchs, or whatever... these are all good speculation that would give a sense and would revert the damage caused by those events, but they are kind of moot points. Unless WotC start caring about this, canonical FR will be stuck with the ugly and unfitting conclusion of those books (yes, ''there's no need of Eilistraee, because the willing were redeemed -as if they needed it- and the unwilling -yes, even the ones yet to be born or the ones who never heard about E- were cast down'' makes NO sense. It sounds like something said by some religious fanatic. Unless it is something to hide the fact that E and V are still alive, but then why would this be hidden to a darksong knight? And wouldn't she know that E is there once she goes back anyway? Not to mention that in order to keep the secret both the siblings would have to hide, which is something they'd hardly do -not E, at least- and would remove what makes them so interesting: they actively fighting for their goal. Seriously, this matter needs to be adressed and the DS restored).

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Originally posted by Laeknir

We're definitely viewing the same thing in different ways. From a metaphorical point of view, any war can be perceived as a gamble or a contest, with generals moving their troops around. We've been told repeatedly that novel scenes of the gods "in action" are often highly dependent on metaphor and impressionistic flavor. Honestly, I really just don't see it as a problem, so we're seeing things quite differently. I absolutely do not think that when Eilistraee is moving the Cavatina "piece" in Sava that she's literally controlling Cavatina and her choices.

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'Redeemed' drow weren't even remotely considered in any kind of development AFAIK. But we know that the Corellon's Descent was reverted, turning them back to pre Crown Wars Tel'Quessir. And my point is that there were many (among the few reverted) drow who didn't need or even want this (again, take Liriel), not to mention that this transformation led many drow to death by lolthite hand or by Underdark hazards. Absolutely not something to sacrifice oneself (not one's life, at least) for, especially when you still have one whole race to fight for (even assuming that E's was really some kind of sacrifice).

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My impression is that the high-magic compulsion pulling them to be near the faerzress has been removed due to Q'arlynd and associates. Additionally, it was my impression that Eilistraee's "cleansing" was purely spiritual. I had zero impression that any physical (skin color or racial change) was accomplished. But again, it's totally possible that I could have skipped over something critical like a physical skin-color reversion, so I plan to go back and re-read it.

I also didn't have the impression that their original banishment to the Underdark caused any physical change. It's possible that their original allies (the lighter-skinned non-dark-elves who allied with them) were transformed into dark elves, but after generations of "breeding true" you wouldn't see any physical reversions of just a few IMO.

Who exactly were the redeemed drow that "didn't want this" and were instantly discovered and slain? Liriel cannot be an example, because she is not featured in any story AFAIK that follows Lady Penitent. Who are you referring to, specifically?

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Well, if they sacrificed their divinity, they can't be deities (not now, at least). This doesn't prevent them from trying to get their godhood back (this could be a story idea), or Ao from promoting them again, if that is what has to happen. So yes, I'd really like to see this released (it's a basis for further development and looks like a fitting way to return both E and V).

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The whole "push" of 5E or Next for the Realms has been "the gods are all coming back!" or something similar along those lines. Personally, I think that E & V as archfey might fit with 4E, but I highly doubt that anyone who liked E & V would want for them to remain archfey in 5E Realms. Since I hate 4E, anything promoting them as depowered entities falls totally flat with me. So I don't really care that much about what appears (or didn't) in 4E Menzoberranzan. In some ways, I think fighting to have that author's section on E & V will send the wrong message to WotC for those who would want them fully returned as gods in 5E.

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Personally, I agree with almost everything you're saying here. But the bottom line is that WotC isn't going to retcon anything from the end of 3.5E or anything done in 4E. That has been hammered into anyone who suggests retcons as fixes or reversions to earlier editions: it's not going to happen, so we have two choices -- either accept what happened and move on by making new purchases of 5E material, or stop buying things altogether and going "homebrew."

For those of us who are now just novel readers, "homebrew" isn't really a choice we can make. So we can either be good little consumers or go away, we're not supposed to still be complaining.

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Originally posted by Irennan

It looks like I wasn't clear enough. I simply don't like the use of a chess game to symbolize the fight over a race's freedom, because it gives the idea of too much influence on the player's side on the choices of the ones who should be the movers (as pawns in such game symbolize expendability and being dominated). This is even more true when the player is someone who stands for freedom.

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After the Crown Wars, Illythiri and Miyeritari were cursed with the 'Corellon's Descent', with their skins turning black and so on... (it is said somewhere in the part of GHotR or LEoF regarding the Crown Wars, I don't recall which of the two. (snip)

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I have the impression that WotC don't want them, especially not as gods. It takes nothing (decision-wise, on the designers' side) to promote both of them to deities (either with Ao writing their names on the Tablets, or making up a story for it) once the lore about them as Archfey has been released; and if 'too many non Lolthite' was the issue, the Archfey approach would solve it, making them not as powerful and their followers much reduced in number. That said, I'd be glad if both of them were back as deities, but I feel like we are lucky if WotC even decided to make them Archfey (something that I would't mind, even tho I prefer them as deities).

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In this case, things can be fixed w/o a retcon, for example by using the lore that they already have (the one I mentioned about E and V as archfey) and using it as basis for further development, or taking the hypothesis that Corellon is protecting his children, or by making up any other story (as a fancy one can undo anything) and so on...

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